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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:14:00 -
[1]
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 01:20:10 I don't understand what CCP is trying to do.
Balancing an MMORPG is hard, balancing EVE Online must be harder than most. It's just so complex (one of the reasons most of us signed up of course though). The problem is, that CCP has been making changes that have had long term, negative effects on PvP.
EVE Online's, primary PvP killer is: Player owned structures... POSes are a good reason for people to blob.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford There are really two kinds of blobs, or maybe just two incarnations of the same blob. The first is the blob that shows up on the map. You've all seen it happen, one sides has twenty ships, so you bring 30 ships. The other side then waits for more people and all of the sudden he has 50. In the end, if you want to accomplish something you need 200 people. To break up the escalation, we need a reason to use a smaller fleet. A small fleet needs to be able to make difference and we need more intermediate goals.
Okay, but how about we look the same way at POS warfare? I'm looking at a Minmatar Control Tower right now. Here's what's on it:
6x Small Artillery Batteries 4x Small AutoCannon Batteries 6x Medium Artillery Batteries 1x Large Artillery Batteries 1x Warp Disruption Battery 1x Stasis Webification Battery 1x Sensor Dampening Battery 1x Jump Bridge 1x System Scanning Array 1x Ship Maintenance Array 1x Corporate Hangar Array
Think. What is this "smaller fleet" meant to do to that? You can't even cover the gates to stop them from coming to defend it. They just need to find out what you have in the system and jump in a larger fleet.
Of course, blobbing isn't the only problem; POSes just make it too easy to live in 0.0 too. It is easier to live in 0.0 than it is to live in empire. There really isn't much risk, if you aren't too silly of course, especially when you can either move to a POS or to a station as soon as trouble arises. There is not a big enough risk attached to living in 0.0 to justify the rewards that are given.
How many people have been in systems where people are hiding inside POS shields? Also, how many times have people seen others play the undock-redock game?
What happened to the PvP we used to have? PvP has gone down hill and, in all honesty, that hill is getting steeper. It used to be fun, I'm sure it was. Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Or is it not just me? I feel like I am being left behind by a game that no longer wants to play.
There are a bunch more reasons why PvP its self is being killed. I shall refrain from discussing them at this time as they have been said too many times before for people to want to read them again.
In October, I will be back at uni and right now, I can't see a good reason for me to continue subscribing to this game beyond that point. Don't get me wrong though! There are many things I do like about EVE Online! The complexity, the size, the politics, my friends, my enemies... I just think that PvP could be better and it is such an important part of this game to me.
How many other people feel the same way? Think back a couple years or maybe more and remember what you loved about EVE Online.
Thanks.
Ps. Constructive posts please. New and old playersą Please think before you post. In before "wall of text!", haha.
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Kulmid
New Justice Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:24:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Kulmid on 31/07/2007 01:24:53 Till I am a. physically b. mentally or c. financially unable to play
Also, Can I have your stuff?
~~~~~ Success is the happy feeling you get between the time you do something and the time you tell a woman what you did. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's no greater honor than winning.
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WalronS
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:26:00 -
[3]
i am in the same opinion as you. the pvp (?) experience in eve according to me is like that: %5 pvp (player vs player as we all know) %10 gvg (gang vs gang) %85 gvp (gang vs PLAYER) = blobbing!
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Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:27:00 -
[4]
You know, its sad when I agree with a Burn Eden pilot but I have to.
CCP is fostering massive blobing on a system that can't handle the blob.
POS's are a bigger pain than ever to kill, and promote hours of camping and not fun activities.
If I wanted that I'd go back to WoW raiding.
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:32:00 -
[5]
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 01:32:51
Originally by: WalronS i am in the same opinion as you. the pvp (?) experience in eve according to me is like that: %5 pvp (player vs player as we all know) %10 gvg (gang vs gang) %85 gvp (gang vs PLAYER) = blobbing!
Well, I can understand the reasons why one gang would want to out number another gang, that's only natural really... What I don't understand is why things are added to a game that encourage massive scale blobbing (which the system can't handle as it is anyway)
Originally by: Jenna Shame If I wanted that I'd go back to WoW raiding.
WoW raids were fairly fun actually.
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Dark Shikari
Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:37:00 -
[6]
I think for quite a while its been a forgone conclusion that:
1. CCP is consistently and repeatedly making changes to the POS/sovereignty system that encourage and/or require blobbing to occur.
2. The servers cannot handle such blobbing.
Every new change has increased the need for blobs. Examples:
Cyno jammers force enemies to bring massive swarms of small ships instead of capital ships.
Titan nerf, while in many ways justified, eliminates one of the last big blob-busters of the game.
In the end, most of the best PvPers will either quit or join roaming PvP corporations like INFOD, TOXIN, etc. Alliance warfare sucks, and everyone knows it.
23 Member
EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! |
Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:43:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Dark Shikari I think for quite a while its been a forgone conclusion that:
1. CCP is consistently and repeatedly making changes to the POS/sovereignty system that encourage and/or require blobbing to occur.
2. The servers cannot handle such blobbing.
Every new change has increased the need for blobs. Examples:
Cyno jammers force enemies to bring massive swarms of small ships instead of capital ships.
Titan nerf, while in many ways justified, eliminates one of the last big blob-busters of the game.
In the end, most of the best PvPers will either quit or join roaming PvP corporations like INFOD, TOXIN, etc. Alliance warfare sucks, and everyone knows it.
So the obvious conclusion is...make omni-doomsday arrays at poses?
Wait...crap. That's a good idea. It would do all types of damage, but do significantly less collective damage than a doomsday. It would force players to bring tanked BS instead of wittle-bitty friggies, which wouldn't have done much damage anyway, and to possibly bring logistics ships too.
I can't be the first one to think of this -----
Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers Eve GUI Tweaks |
Wrayeth
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:46:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 31/07/2007 01:47:21 I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. Warfare in EVE used to be a lot more enjoyable before large-scale POS warfare and sovereignty came about. The damned things have so many hitpoints and kick out so much damage that you HAVE to bring a large fleet unless you want to be shooting at 'em all day. To compound the problem, you don't just have to kill one or two, but often DOZENS of them to take control of a system. This results in a massive timesink that involves absolutely no fun...and EVE is a game we play for entertainment. (Well, those of us who don't play it like it's our job. -coughs-)
What makes it even worse is the fact that you have to put 10-20 times the cost of the tower and modules (at the very least) on the line if you want to take one down. The risk vs. reward involving POS is massively skewed.
Unfortunately, now that CCP and the game mechanics are so heavily invested in POS, I don't see them going away. As such, the best we can hope for is a reduction of their negative effects on the game via a number of mechanic changes.
I propose the following:
* Reduce POS hitpoints to one quarter of current. This will reduce the boredom and frustration of protracted POS sieges and also (hopefully) reduce the number of ships necessary to take out a POS in a reasonable amount of time.
* Introduce a POS module that will increase POS hitpoints to pre-nerf levels, but prevent any POS utilizing it from participating in the claiming of sovereignty (to make research/manufacturing POS and capital shipyards continue to be viable).
* Greatly increase the fitting costs of POS weaponry. This will make POS more easily tankable by smaller groups while at the same time forcing the enemy to actually fight for their territory instead of letting the POS guns do it for them.
* Increase the cost of POS and POS modules by two or three times to somewhat counteract the risk-vs.-reward imbalance.
If these are implemented, I feel it would be the first step towards making EVE as enjoyable as it used to be.
Now if only the last hitpoint boost could be reversed for anything that's not a capital.... -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire
"Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!" |
umop 3pisdn
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:47:00 -
[9]
Bored out of my friggen skull by the way pvp has changed, i've only been playing a year and a half but it has changed in that time.
Lately i've been attempting to solo isk farmers in my ceptor for fun... the only 1 v 1 you can get, if you're extremely fast/lucky
Nos nerf is gonna be fun, command ships will pwn again and frigs will have a chance against more ratting BS's
faggotbonds will rule the day again... kinda like when they used to stab up... that doesnt make me happy
so basically, long story short, lag/blob warfare is **** and i've resorted to small ships because its hard to dodge the ****in blobs any other way.
Had an Aeon dropped on us yesterday... 5 man gang... in 0.0... what kinda **** is that?
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 01:48:00 -
[10]
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 01:54:14
Originally by: Haffrage So the obvious conclusion is...make omni-doomsday arrays at poses?
Originally by: umop 3pisdn Nos nerf is gonna be fun, command ships will pwn again and frigs will have a chance against more ratting BS's
I am beginning to like the idea of the nos-nerf. I'm not too keen on flying my Curse now though... I'm just about over the shock of having x3 Corpum a-type medium nosferatus reduced in value to zero. Anyway, we should leave nos talk to other threads.
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Ryum852
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:05:00 -
[11]
these are the issues that are making me doubt if I want to invest in this game. ATM I am a month in, and have had a good time with pve, but my endgame has always been to pvp. If this game is moving to become like all the other mmo's then there are ones out there that look better or atleast control better, don't have lag issues, and more reasons that make them seem better to play. From what I have read it seems this mmo has the same schedual as wow on taking forever to add things to the game, but lacks the polish when made live.
When I pvp I want my ship to matter, not be just a number... like someone already said there are many games with rewarding raids you could join if you just wanted to be another number... hell all most mmos would have to do is make a pvp alternative that when you died it actually meant something and they would have good endgame pve and pvp...
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:06:00 -
[12]
Originally by: CagedRage Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 01:32:51
Originally by: WalronS i am in the same opinion as you. the pvp (?) experience in eve according to me is like that: %5 pvp (player vs player as we all know) %10 gvg (gang vs gang) %85 gvp (gang vs PLAYER) = blobbing!
Well, I can understand the reasons why one gang would want to out number another gang, that's only natural really... What I don't understand is why things are added to a game that encourage massive scale blobbing (which the system can't handle as it is anyway)
Originally by: Jenna Shame If I wanted that I'd go back to WoW raiding.
WoW raids were fairly fun actually.
theoretically there could be reasons to not want to outnumber.
Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react.
So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Evil Pookie
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:12:00 -
[13]
You could always just remove reinforced mode from posses or remove Ouver for being incompetant/recalcitrant (I still can't decide)
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Vizranuh
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:39:00 -
[14]
So many intelligent posts. I love it, and I totally agree. PVP needs some serious tinkering with. POS warfare is just lame. Removal of reinforced mode would definately help. Removal of local would be f'n sweet (or make constellation default instead), but I've never seen any dev post regarding any chances even being thought of about local. (sad)
Whatever it is, I'd love to see some changes that make pvp a little more fun than lagged out alliance blobs and POSes.
Someone mentioned it earlier, and it's quite true. 0.0 is so incredibly safe it's just silly.
Cheers --
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:44:00 -
[15]
Local being replaced by Constellation in 0.4 and below would also help as the blobs wouldn't be able to know there was a blob there so easily. While retaining the social aspect that MMORPGs need.
Hmm, no reinforced mode would certainly mean that you wouldn't have a couple days to get together a 100 man gang that the enemy needs to bring a 200 man gang to kill them off. Maybe a bit harder to add of course, I guess other things would need to be balanced but it would help a massive amount.
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Ithica Ramlix
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Posted - 2007.07.31 02:53:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Ithica Ramlix on 31/07/2007 02:58:59
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: CagedRage Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 01:32:51
Originally by: WalronS i am in the same opinion as you. the pvp (?) experience in eve according to me is like that: %5 pvp (player vs player as we all know) %10 gvg (gang vs gang) %85 gvp (gang vs PLAYER) = blobbing!
Well, I can understand the reasons why one gang would want to out number another gang, that's only natural really... What I don't understand is why things are added to a game that encourage massive scale blobbing (which the system can't handle as it is anyway)
Originally by: Jenna Shame If I wanted that I'd go back to WoW raiding.
WoW raids were fairly fun actually.
theoretically there could be reasons to not want to outnumber.
Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react.
So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics.
I have read other forums about removing local from 0.0, and I have to admit it would make 0.0 10 times more dangerous, however it does also have great benefits and the above solution to the blob problem is IMO the BEST example of this. All of a sudden a huge fleet is now vulnerable to hit and fade, raid style tactics that would revitalize the excitement of the otherwise slow and grinding fleet battles. This would also give the smaller ships attached to cap fleets something to do while sieging a POS... and increase the need for anti-gorilla hunting parties, with the emphasis on staying fast and mobile. This would also mean that the bigger fleet also has to put more on the line because it has to be better protected... so the advantage swings in favor of the smaller mobile force rather then the huge blob.
Having read this quote I am now 100% in favor of removing local from 0.0. Anyone that wants to talk in local still can.. and it reviles their name but not their avatar's picture, just like a radio transition.
If CCP isn't willing to do this for all of 0.0 then consider instead adding a mobile or anchorable local yammer....
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Ryum852
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:16:00 -
[17]
I don't see why people want to limit the way local works now just in 0.0... unless I am mistaken it was never meant to be an intel tool anywhere.
Like people have said before. Make local not show you til you say something then you can either make it so you fade off the local bar after X amount of time, or make it so when someone comes in the sec after you have talked can not see you are there, but they can ask in local if anyone knows how many people are here, or whatver intel they want from another player... as IMO it should be.
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midge Mo'yb
R.U.S.T. Phalanx Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:34:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Ithica Ramlix Edited by: Ithica Ramlix on 31/07/2007 02:58:59
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: CagedRage Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 01:32:51
Originally by: WalronS i am in the same opinion as you. the pvp (?) experience in eve according to me is like that: %5 pvp (player vs player as we all know) %10 gvg (gang vs gang) %85 gvp (gang vs PLAYER) = blobbing!
Well, I can understand the reasons why one gang would want to out number another gang, that's only natural really... What I don't understand is why things are added to a game that encourage massive scale blobbing (which the system can't handle as it is anyway)
Originally by: Jenna Shame If I wanted that I'd go back to WoW raiding.
WoW raids were fairly fun actually.
theoretically there could be reasons to not want to outnumber.
Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react.
So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics.
I have read other forums about removing local from 0.0, and I have to admit it would make 0.0 10 times more dangerous, however it does also have great benefits and the above solution to the blob problem is IMO the BEST example of this. All of a sudden a huge fleet is now vulnerable to hit and fade, raid style tactics that would revitalize the excitement of the otherwise slow and grinding fleet battles. This would also give the smaller ships attached to cap fleets something to do while sieging a POS... and increase the need for anti-gorilla hunting parties, with the emphasis on staying fast and mobile. This would also mean that the bigger fleet also has to put more on the line because it has to be better protected... so the advantage swings in favor of the smaller mobile force rather then the huge blob.
Having read this quote I am now 100% in favor of removing local from 0.0. Anyone that wants to talk in local still can.. and it reviles their name but not their avatar's picture, just like a radio transition.
If CCP isn't willing to do this for all of 0.0 then consider instead adding a mobile or anchorable local yammer....
best reason for removing local yet!!
means people who claim space would actually have to guard it or have little stealth units come in and **** em up :))
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Goonswarmalwayslose
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:47:00 -
[19]
Ammar don't use laser, wtf, lame.
A few changes to make the game enjoyable again: -Only show local count in 0.0 -Allow outposts to be destroyed -Quit adding pointless stuff like loyalty point store, in game voice, terrible map -Bring back gank geddon, blaster mega dps, caldari jamming. There was much more variety in races, A bit dull now, with mini overpowered. And wtf no lasers, ammar is caldari now. -Add alot more lowsec, less hauling capacity with capitals, thats the freighters job. Having no connection between hisec to 0.0 with lowsec ruins the game.
There are nothing wrong with blobs, they are the most fun without the lag which never happens .
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Or'Chan
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:48:00 -
[20]
what we have here, is a chess piece that's incapable of seeing the board.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.07.31 03:53:00 -
[21]
I agree almost completely with what the OP is saying. I believe I brought up the point a few times before, in fact.
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Jenna Shame
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Posted - 2007.07.31 04:53:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Or'Chan what we have here, is a chess piece that's incapable of seeing the board.
He is unable to see the board because he has 20 min jump in lag and hasn't loaded the grid yet.
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Fimbulwinter Pharmaceuticals
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Posted - 2007.07.31 05:05:00 -
[23]
There is another option thats often over looked when talking about improvements to pvp and its an existing system. Standings ATM standings mean nothing to 90% of all players, they simply care if they have enough to use some agent.
If CCP removed Faction police and simply made you a criminal in teritory where you had -5 standings this would greatly increase the number of pilots who can attack you as well as who can be attacked.
I am 100% behind a full sovereignty overhaul Fimbulwinter will never participate because we know it would instantly kill our fun. so... to sum up
Fix boring sovereignty/pos, and make standings actually mean something.
Recruiting Terrorists |
True Sebiestor
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 05:18:00 -
[24]
At first lets nerf cloak in non-specialization ships and then lets whine about "PvP, Blob, POS, JUMP BRIDGE and other"
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BlackHorizon
Caldari Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 05:44:00 -
[25]
Edited by: BlackHorizon on 31/07/2007 05:44:56 That starbase's offensive capability can be easily overcome with two or three dreads in siege mode -- no large fleet required. Try it!
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Deep Throat
Amarr AJAX.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 06:22:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Deep Throat on 31/07/2007 06:22:52 First off, the situation atm in eve is a total annihilation of everything that is fun. 99% of the ppl that play the game atm are either a) old timers who simply cant quit cause they been here so long and dont want to give all that time/work up, b)new players c)isk farmers and their former amateur counterpart the "occasional" agent runners.
Nobody plays this game for the fun of it anymore, cause simply there isnt much fun. What has replaced the exhilarating adrenaline intoxicated fun is a meatgrinder from the early industral age era, its noise,slow and heavy, it stinks and it polutes the environment with dread,boredome and tediuos montonious repeated tasks of less than no importance.
This is the current situation of the game and it is a shame, since alot of ppl have enjoyed it for a long time.
How did it get here? I believe it all started with the CCP design of something bigger and grander then "just" spaceships engaging each other. A notable and good vision but like so many things CCP, it looks good on those staff meetings, the design brainstorming events, the collective wheredowetakethisthingfromhere discussion tables... but in actual play its not working so good and its "in-reality" drawbacks weigh much more heavier than its pre visualized "drawing-board" concepts.
Instead of being a lucid,living, exhilarating combat game they have moved it towards being the "epic-battle-forconquestofspace-empires-playerdriven-multi-agenda" current slice of a game, which in reality is just a fancy way of saying its a pile of boring,monotonius,lagged out but looking good meatgrinder.
So what really is the problem, and how could it all be turned around?
In a nutshell the problem is that everything in this game leads to and supports, alot of players coming together forming alliances and corps and fighting over turf. Now once that is on, the problem enters in the form of that the game really cant support this, neither technically(LAG) nor conceptually since in 90% of all instances very little happens, either due to lag or in the form that the numbers are so vastly gross in either direction that the game offers no other solution to 1 side but to simply log off or wait until whenever....
This is alliance warfare in its purest form. 500 in local. 200 on 1 side sitting at a pos and 300 on the other side either shooting a pos or sitting at one. Situation neither moves here no there for either of these reasons.... risk of big losses too great, lag is too much, no need to do anything until in 3 days time when a pos comes out of reinforced, too few capitals or too many and too few of regular ships, the other side has a better position in relations to this and there is no physical way of gaining a tacitaclly comparable postion ......etc...
90% of the time, next to nothing happens.
And inbetween this we have very little, except the squalls of "roaming gangs" who used to be anywhere from 2 to 20 but are now rarely seen with anything less than 25 to 40. These squalls roam the few availble lanes and areas looking for anything "doable" but seeing since CCP in one of their magic brainstorming meetings decided the balance of damage output of older players vs new player needed to be balanced... and nerfed the damage of t2 weapons all over while significantly boosting hitpoint for all ships on a much larger scale..... acompanied by the affinity of players to stick together in small pockets of space.. i.e living quarter blobbing..... "doable" has become a rare sight.
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Deep Throat
Amarr AJAX.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 06:22:00 -
[27]
x
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illusha
Ichiro Edgar Martinez
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Posted - 2007.07.31 06:25:00 -
[28]
When I watch Battlestar Galatica spaceship combat, I think of Eve or at least how it should be. Dozens of Jet Fighter type of ships combined with carriers and other cool stuff fighting without lag. Why can't that be like Eve? Why can't I fly my ship like its a F-14?
Why can't I jump without being told "Session Change" and getting blown up by the enemy because of it? Why can't I find people who want to engage in a 1 vs 1 on tranquility? Why does Miller Lite taste like urine? Why do the Harry Potter books need to end? Why does God make beautiful women but let them have the option of not having sex with us? Why do we need to know math more advanced than 5th grade if we don't care? I just want to know why, why and why.
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Geshwin
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Posted - 2007.07.31 06:30:00 -
[29]
its amusing that these people start to whine about pos warfare who fit cloaks on ravens, have their whole gank gang cloaked sitting on a gate + cloaked dictor + massive dampers or jammers, nothin else, and just decloak when they know there is an easy gank incoming
and now u come here and deserve credit for it? sry no sir
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True Sebiestor
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 06:39:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Geshwin its amusing that these people start to whine about pos warfare who fit cloaks on ravens, have their whole gank gang cloaked sitting on a gate + cloaked dictor + massive dampers or jammers, nothin else, and just decloak when they know there is an easy gank incoming
and now u come here and deserve credit for it? sry no sir
Yeah man, exactly, it so funny ... all this whining from such "great PvPers" who sit in cloaks and look at own K/D ratio
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CRUSH3R
Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:10:00 -
[31]
Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 31/07/2007 05:44:56 That starbase's offensive capability can be easily overcome with two or three dreads in siege mode -- no large fleet required. Try it!
\o/ BE will fit dreads with cloacks and dampeners too %)
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hantwo
S.A.S Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:18:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kulmid Edited by: Kulmid on 31/07/2007 01:24:53 Till I am a. physically b. mentally or c. financially unable to play
Also, Can I have your stuff?
and how long did it take you to think of this reply? The op put forward a well constructed argument, whether you agree or not the best you could come up with was "can I have you stuff" ItĘs a childish mentality itĘs been done a million times before and it shows what little intellect you must have.
Why me eh? |
Trak Cranker
Serenity Inc
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:49:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Trak Cranker on 31/07/2007 08:51:14 I can agree with the OP mostly.
There are aspects of pvp that has improved (ship selection, tactics) - but the appliance in terms of territorial power play has indeed not helped the game.
They need to move sovereignty decision away from static objects and over to actions made.
It is already a points game with towers. Why not make enemy kills (ships and POS), NPC kills and mining/cloud mining/exploration made (and whatever else you can think of along those lines) go into a tally that decides sov. Anything that forces ships into space.
It would force everyone into action in a system, and move towers back to being logistical tools, for which they are excellent.
Think of all the actual ship encounters such a system would provoke. You would not be able to sit in station or behind the POS shield, while the opposition racks up points on the NPCs. On the other hand, ratting the NPCs or mining/exploring to score points, would entice a split of a fleet to maximise point scoring - opening up for a counterattack by the opposition. And it will be as fair as can be, I think, in terms of timezone dominance.
And it would force an opposing force to have presence for whatever period points dominance must be had.
Please treat this as the rough idea it is. There are prob tons of problems with it. I have on purpose left out any thoughts on any specific points sizes. (But shooting the opposition should ofc be quite a bit better than shooting NPCs.)
But I can really see a lot of oldfashioned pew pew come from this.
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Miss Mickey
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:56:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Miss Mickey on 31/07/2007 08:56:48 I would personally like to see something along the lines of a Sov. Module that sits inside pos shields, thus requiring descruction of POS to de-activate. Such a module would have an insanely high CPU need, but would fit very nicely on these nice, new, extra-small POS's which have a special bonus that reduces the CPU need of the Sov. Module. These new POS's would be able to fit some guns, EW and resists, but nothing like the sponge or deathstar POS's of the past.
This way a POS could still be a tough nut to ***** when used for a base, research station, refine post etc. But as far as Sov. goes, the task is made much easier. (Though you'd still need to take out any cyno jammers should you want to use capitals)
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Haas Tabris
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:57:00 -
[35]
Some excellent points in this thread. Hope I can add a few more...
First, I agree that the devs seem to have deved (or is that devved?) themselves into a corner with the whole POS warfare stuff. It's kinda sad actually, 'cause i think they were actually trying to make the game more fun, more immersive, and add more content. But its really just messing up the pvp side of 0.0 because the servers just can't handle the massive fleets. they just can't.
So the solution would appear to de-fleet the game a bit. Why do fleets form? Well, I contend it's because local allows us to get an accurate hostile count in any system we can drop an alt. So, have enough alts, or enough player scouts, and you can get a pretty good idea of who has what forces where. And if any enemy starts forming up, well, it's real easy to try to form up your own fleet to stop them. Hence the big fleets.
Also, if a small gang starts pushing into your territory, well, your scouts 6 or 8 jumps out will pick them up easy. Local pops. "oh hey, we've got 20 hostiles inbound from ABC, rally point is the RST gate in XYZ system. Get there now!" Ok, so you round up a fleet of 30-40, but then the hostile fleet has their scout 2 or 3 jumps ahead who eventually reports back "oh hey, FC, they've got 50 pilots in local" and the FC turns the fleet around or waits for reinforcements.
What would be so wrong to let the the 20 man gang in without such an early warning system? Why not make scouts have to pay attention? Why not introduce the element of surprise back into the game? As in "hey, FC, we just popped a scout on the XYZ gate, might be more of them coming, but we don't know, we're gonna send out a few guys to take a look..."
I'm not saying remove local. Just make it work like alliance chat. You say "boo" and your little face pops up. Otherwise nobody knows you're there...
Second, POS warfare needs some help. I think the problem here lies in the reinforcement timers AND the fact you can't capture an enemy POS AND the way sovereignty works. Suggested fixes:
1 - Remove sovereignty from the game. It just sucks. Let us attack and defend stations and outposts directly. Let us anchor guns outside our stations and outposts. Why make us do the POS dance? When all we're doing is spamming POS's JUST TO GET ACCESS TO THE GODDAMN STATIONS??? think it through guys, stop reading right now and think that through.
Still want to brag about pretty little dots on the map? Fine. Capture the station or outpost and you control the system. And get the pretty little dot. No station? Go capture a few hostile POS's, or spam a few of your own. Fine, done.
2 - Eliminate reinforcement mode and timers. Massive fleet warps in and attacks a POS or station, ok, they capture it. You and your friends have to go get it back. No more stront, no more timers, no more massive cap fleet buildups all timed for when the station comes out of reinforced. Wanna park a bunch of expensive stuff out there? Ok, better go get your POS back before they loot it.
This means we might actually need some station defenses worth a damn. Hmmm.... Might also mean CAP ships need a nerfbat (gasp!). Or maybe it means we need a light cap ship class (something between a battleship and a dread that could fight either one at half the cost). I contend the jump from 200 mil for a kitted bs to 2 bil isk for a kitted dread is just too big a gap and makes the game unwieldy and a bit off balance. Hmmm... Game balancing FTW?
That's about it. Nerf local, drop sov, drop reinforced mode, let us capture enemy POS's directly, fix the station defense vs. dread snafu and/or give us a light cap ship class and we should be good to go. Piece of cake, right?
Thanks for reading. ;-)
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Ryas Nia
Minmatar Fimbulwinter Pharmaceuticals Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.31 08:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Geshwin its amusing that these people start to whine about pos warfare who fit cloaks on ravens, have their whole gank gang cloaked sitting on a gate + cloaked dictor + massive dampers or jammers, nothin else, and just decloak when they know there is an easy gank incoming
and now u come here and deserve credit for it? sry no sir
When you have no valid argument the best defense is to attack the other person, not their position, thank you for that.
Recruiting Terrorists |
Ryas Nia
Minmatar Fimbulwinter Pharmaceuticals Fimbulwinter
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Posted - 2007.07.31 09:03:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Deep Throat
5.PROBING being set back to a playerskill driven occupation like it once was -accompanied with the nerf of the cloaking devices on all ships thing, this would remove the need to cloak since probing would be back to what its supposed to be, a skill from a player, not a push of a button.
O god yes please... there was a time when this game required player skill and this was one of the things that made it clear who the winners and losers were going to be. The new system is just a time sink a monkey could do.
Recruiting Terrorists |
Isonda
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.07.31 09:32:00 -
[38]
I like Sov. I like that POS's take days to destroy as there are much hard work behind a life in 0.0 I don't want systemes to be ganked. I don't want the ping-pong of the past back
And CagedRage, PvP? Don't you mean one sided PVP? Most of Burn Edens victims in Feyth where inocent traders and carebears. If you want PVP, pure and raw, go attack outbreak.
To be quite honest, I do like the aspect that you loose stuff permanently here in this game, but, people should have a chance to defend it.
The idea of PvP by most in this game are ganking people. Bubble, jam, dampen, web and blow up... preferably a shuttle with a T2 BPO in it. That have nothing to do with PVP. Just NPC'n with a lower spawnrate.
CCP should have dropped the sov system into EVE when they said they planned to, 12-18 months ago. Then CYVOK's and D2's dream of a 0.0 empire whould have been here long ago. And they was the ONLY one to ever want to build a 0.0 empire.
in my view.. this game are getting VERY well balanced now. And if Burn Eden goes away, then the game will loose a player. Then again.. Burn Eden ain't what it used to be. You guys hired more people, didn't ya?
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QuantumX
Minmatar Sicarri Covenant
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Posted - 2007.07.31 09:35:00 -
[39]
Removing local / making local show you if you speak is a must to keep pvp alive in 0.0, its something is needed to stop the blob tactic. 0.0 needs to be more dangerous.
Alot of alliance space in 0.0 is safer then Jita, is that how its suppose to be. Sov is a great idea but once up its a nut too tough to ***** unless you blob hundreds of pilots especially if you can use Capitals due to jammers.
An alliances capital should be the only tough nut to *****, and nothing else. a well cor-ordinated force should be able to take any system for any alliance if they are not willing to defend it, and by defend i mean putting ships in space, and not putting up 1000 POS Deathstars and having 50 players hold off 500.
SOV should be held to one constellation per alliance for any level 3 or above, this makes you prime constellation means something, the constellations surrounding you should act as a small buffer and not a POS Deathstar blob.
Hopefully CCP will see the damage they are doing the 0.0 and fix it soon.
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Kozak
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:14:00 -
[40]
I don't understand something. Your whole gang structure only lands itself to ganking. Some of us like all out slugfests, not camping choke points to gank a lone ship. BE has never taken posses on, why are you complaining again? Cause you can't kill a POS with a 8 man gang? When could you kill a pos with anything other then 40 BS?
Your whine has no merit, BE has never ran gangs strong enough to kill any kind of POS and if you want to camp a choke point, POS warfare has nothing to do with you.
If you want fight like most of us do, start roaming instead of camping.
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Daimos Bellurdan
Black Reign FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:14:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Daimos Bellurdan on 31/07/2007 10:14:58 I agree with the op and deep throat. The game is definately going down the wrong lane. The funny thing is: I have seen it happen with nearly every mmo out there. Its just the mmo developer trying to get more people to play the game. Most game updates just change the game or add something to make the game more appealing to the masses and leaving minorities behind (in this case the older eve player base).
I do not know where I read it but a dev of another mmo once said that most mmo players do not have actual skill (as in aiming, speed, tactical knowledge, etc). If you want to have more players in your game you have to reduce the skill based factors and make it possible that even the most unskilled player can play the game and win (absolute security, invested time = your success).
Pos's (pos spamming, reinforced, lots of guns and hp), undestructable outposts, more ship hp, cloaking, local, sovereignity is used for one thing: To minimize the players risk in the game with a high predictability and asset security. The actual ability of a player is reduced as much as possible. Nowadays most ships only use one sort of setup. No variety at all. If the strength of a player does not count and everything is predictable there is only one way to overpower your enemy: with numbers.
I mostly agree with Deep Throats argumentation. In short I think this is needed: - Player skill has to become a factor! A good player should win in the same ship against two bad players. Numbers should not count. - Reduce the predictability (no local etc) and create more ways of fighting (strategy/tactics). - More variety with ship setups. When I fight an enemy my first job should be to find out what setup and tactic they are using, not just count the ships. - Weapons that work against blobs but not against small gangs. - Pos's and OUTPOSTs should be destroyable with less than 50 players.
Main problem: This would drive a lot of people out of 0.0 and out of the game. CCP is a company with the main goal of making money. I do not care if I play with 10k, 20k or 100k players but I think ccp would not agree.
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Radamathadus
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:21:00 -
[42]
Sadley over the last few months a good number of pvping friends, mostly veteran multiple account holders have quit over the way pvp has changed. Mostly they were fed up of the way that solo and small gang work was being replaced by blobs.
Consenus when talking about why they were leaving was that EVE had gotten to small again. The advent of warp to zero had had minimal impact on the gate camps it was meant to beat but had a fundamental impact on the forming of blobs as over all travel time was cut so dramatically.
Maybe warp speeds should have been reduced when warp to zero was introduced. But they should definitly be looked at being reduced now. The downside is that traveling is a mindnumbing experience and a time sink which nobody enjoys at the best of time. But the game post the removal of the superhighways felt bigger and not all roads led to Yulai/Jita.
In regard to pos's the simple fix is to remove all ice from high sec. With out this "safe" and often dubiously sourced ice there would be far fewer pos's out there and those in place would have far higher stratigic importance. |
Kozak
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:23:00 -
[43]
To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. We've been jumping small gangs into blobs all the time. It's great fun and you should try it.
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yourmate nate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:24:00 -
[44]
lo
/signed
0.0 is no risk today, its too easy. the only 'risk' about 0.0 is jumping into a bottleneck while 99% of the rest of the plase is a walk in the park. PVP used to be super cool back in exodus, today its boring as hell.
Remember how sweet it was to take a station without spamming multiple posses all over the galaxy? It was better to take a station with a battleship blob rather than posses and capital ships.
CCP, please do some soul searching. What may have looked super sweet on the drawingboard in 2003 may not be so sweet in reality.
Kind regards yourmate nate
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yourmate nate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:27:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Kozak Cause you can't kill a POS with a 8 man gang? When could you kill a pos with anything other then 40 BS?
lo
You can no problem kill a poss with 20 bs's...at least back in the day. Dont know how it is today as I stay as far away from ***pos as possible.
Kind regards yourmate nate
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yourmate nate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:29:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Kozak To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. .
lo
How do you adapt to a system thats broken? Remember the fleet battles in the past with little lag, and the ones today where you get killmail before the grid loads?
kind regards yourmate nate
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:38:00 -
[47]
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 10:44:19 Oh, True Sebiestor, I expected a better reply from someone like you. The fact that this is coming from a BURN EDEN member isn't really relevant. Tactics we use are actually exactly like Kagura said:
Originally by: Kagura Nikon theoretically there could be reasons to not want to outnumber.
Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react.
So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics.
You could start by reading this: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm It might help you to understand BURN EDEN. Think harder about tactics we use, and actually come up with a way to beat them. You have enough good PvPers in your corp to do it. The biggest problem anyone has, trying to take BURN EDEN out is that you bring stupidly large numbers to do it. What do you expect us to do? If you want a chance, you will need to bring an equal squad (but one with better skills of course). Until then, try to at least put some intelligence into your posts. Thanks.
Originally by: Kozak To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. We've been jumping small gangs into blobs all the time. It's great fun and you should try it.
I know exactly how COL PvP works Kozak... It can be fun. But it's funny that you should say that, because so often complained about other corps and alliances blobbing the small COL raid gangs...
Anyway, it would be nice to get this on topic again...
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Sarchez
Minmatar Infinitus Odium The Church.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:43:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Ryas Nia
Fix boring sovereignty/pos, and make standings actually mean something.
Agreed (as I'm sure you know) ;) but you still have the option of making them mean something to YOU
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Minigarch
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Minigarch on 31/07/2007 10:49:24 The problem is not with overpowered defensive modules but, in contrary, with overpowered offensive and underpowered defensive. There's less and less solo and small gang action with each nerf to any defensive module, such as stabs, cloaks etc. Nobody wants to die, people just adapt. There will be nothing but blobs or convoys with extensive cloaked scout support if the local chat is nerfed.
Want more small gang and solo action? Unnerf stabs, nerf dictors and bubbles, nerf hp of ships back to pre-buff time, maybe nerf recons a bit as well, and there will be plenty of targets again.
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 10:47:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Kozak To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. We've been jumping small gangs into blobs all the time. It's great fun and you should try it.
I know what COL PvP is like Kozak... Come on. It's funny that you should say this though... Almost every gang I flew with would have people complaining about the opposing gangs that would bring 2,3 or 4 times our numbers.
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Chrysalis D'lilth
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Posted - 2007.07.31 11:07:00 -
[51]
Gotta agree, mashing 6+ deathstar POS's hardly makes the game fun, just time consuming....
Just have 1 POS dictate each systems sovereignty, placed at the sun in each system. Limit this POS to the one that can house the anti cyno generator and also let it have a module that tells its alliance members who is in local.
POS's at moons within the soverign holders get hp's like they do now, while those without get a big hp/resist nerf, making it easy to remove 'rogue' towers once you have claimed soverignty, whilst making it hard to remove soverign holders pos's until you take the system.
Remove local from 0.0 (read:opt in local)
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Kozak
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 12:28:00 -
[52]
You guys are forgetting something. Since Beta the devs have been saying that 0.0 is for alliance warfare. They had mock battles in beta, trying to get 100 vs. 100 to happen. They envisioned 0.0 as empire, but with alliances at the helm. Small pirate gangs have their role in low sec and if they choose can enter deeper into 0.0.
We always take 10 man gangs into systems that show 50 on map, we usually get 20 to engage and we love it. We sometimes loose ships but are always having fun.
This complaint sounds more of a complaint on ganks without risk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You gotta risk your ships sometimes. If you can't accept that there is a 30% chance for an awesome battle and a 70% chance most of you will die, then don't venture into 0.0. Stay in Low Sec or choke points cloaked.
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.07.31 13:01:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Kozak You guys are forgetting something. Since Beta the devs have been saying that 0.0 is for alliance warfare. They had mock battles in beta, trying to get 100 vs. 100 to happen. They envisioned 0.0 as empire, but with alliances at the helm. Small pirate gangs have their role in low sec and if they choose can enter deeper into 0.0.
We always take 10 man gangs into systems that show 50 on map, we usually get 20 to engage and we love it. We sometimes loose ships but are always having fun.
This complaint sounds more of a complaint on ganks without risk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You gotta risk your ships sometimes. If you can't accept that there is a 30% chance for an awesome battle and a 70% chance most of you will die, then don't venture into 0.0. Stay in Low Sec or choke points cloaked.
You dont get it do you? As someone mentioned earlier what loks good on the drawing board may not work when they implement it. If you think the current state is fine or good then you are a fool.
Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.
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Kozak
Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 13:10:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Kozak on 31/07/2007 13:11:19
Originally by: Death Kill
Originally by: Kozak You guys are forgetting something. Since Beta the devs have been saying that 0.0 is for alliance warfare. They had mock battles in beta, trying to get 100 vs. 100 to happen. They envisioned 0.0 as empire, but with alliances at the helm. Small pirate gangs have their role in low sec and if they choose can enter deeper into 0.0.
We always take 10 man gangs into systems that show 50 on map, we usually get 20 to engage and we love it. We sometimes loose ships but are always having fun.
This complaint sounds more of a complaint on ganks without risk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You gotta risk your ships sometimes. If you can't accept that there is a 30% chance for an awesome battle and a 70% chance most of you will die, then don't venture into 0.0. Stay in Low Sec or choke points cloaked.
You dont get it do you? As someone mentioned earlier what loks good on the drawing board may not work when they implement it. If you think the current state is fine or good then you are a fool.
Really? So I'm a fool for going out and gettin great fight almost daily since Rev II? I'm a fool cause we're able to adapt and have fun while you just sit in station spinning your ship?
Who's the real fool here?
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.07.31 13:27:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Kozak
Really? So I'm a fool for going out and gettin great fight almost daily since Rev II? I'm a fool cause we're able to adapt and have fun while you just sit in station spinning your ship?
Who's the real fool here?
You dont understand the point of this 'whine'
Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.
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Heikki
Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 13:27:00 -
[56]
Originally by: CagedRage It used to be fun, I'm sure it was .. Or is it not just me?
It really might be you who changed: already had the experiences, and looking for more than the game can offer.
I still think the 'old' style small scale PVP is out there; CCP is just adding other options. You don't need to attack single POS if you don't want to, you don't have to own any territory.
IMHO CCP has good vision about Empire building: combining both logistical and warfare challenges. Personally I want to stay away from that, and fight in small teams, but I fully support offering such options for others.
-Lasse who regardless hopes CCP would discourage blobbing..
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Herculite
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.31 14:02:00 -
[57]
I'm not sure I understand what the argument is here.
It seems people are confusing a hate of BE's playstyle with a legitimate complaint on the direction CCP is taking EvE.
Anyone can still fly around in a small group and gank people not paying enough attention, but to accomplish anything major game wise, its requiring more and more of a blob and CCP seems to be facilitating that.
I'm personally getting a bit disheartened as skill becomes less and less of a factor and CCP seems to be listening to the loudest whines like a typical MMO. What made me love EvE over most MMO's was that the devs seemed immune to the whines, but as EvE gets bigger its falling into the same pattern.
I hope this is just a little burp, and things resume a more logical path in the near future.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Balthasar Moreq
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Posted - 2007.07.31 14:21:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Deep Throat stuff
Signed.
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Grox
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Posted - 2007.07.31 14:27:00 -
[59]
after 4 years of eve.<pvp> the one thing ive found out .there is more going on in this game than any of us know about.somewhere someplace in eve u can find exactly what u want.if you are tired of to much allioance warfare then mount up and travel.go to some place 50 or 150 jumps away from where u are at and the universe will be totally different.so mount up, load up ,ammo up and go find it.
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Coltaine ShadowStrider
Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:04:00 -
[60]
You just dont get it. Some of us dont want only 1vs1(and if you can find that in eve.. well good luck! or 5vs5(same as before). Some of us pay to have Fleet fights. Big fights. But fights you can actually .. you know.. play. CCP is advertizing a game but forgets to mention a. you cant have sound. b. you cant have effects c. you CANT have fleet fights(since in big fights the what? 10% only loads). Put that in your promo please
If i had the video skills i would make a video to show what actually happens in massive pvp in eve (the 10 mins jumping.. the empty space for another 30 mins etc, ). Again anyone who things the game isnt busted plays a diffrent game. YOU cant deliver in fleet fights? FINE remove the concept of player controlled territories. Erase 0.0 of the map and promote the game of missions, mining and general npc grinding.
Not that i dont like eve. Its by far the best MMO i have played in concept. By FAR. It just at the time for whatever reason (hardware,software,design whatever) cannot exist in the form they hoped it would be. And seriously i understand a bit of lag but i was complaining when i laged in UO for some secs we are talking about 30+ mins here. Thats not lag thats broken.
Endure. In enduring, grow strong.
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Dec V
Minmatar Winds of Dawn
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:45:00 -
[61]
I agree with OP. PVP should be skillfull, not just who has a bigger fleet. I like the ideas of more stealthy attacks, ambushes, a bit of excitement which you rarely get.
Oh and btw, stop giving the OP crap because he is in BE. He could of been in an alliance that took down loads of pos's, he obviously knows a lot about pos warfare...no matter what corp he is in. (And btw....BE are a bloody good pvp corp).
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Mhaerdirne Solveig
Minmatar Discordian Research
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:51:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Mhaerdirne Solveig on 31/07/2007 15:51:44
Originally by: CagedRage
You could start by reading this: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
that's a decent article but why the fornication is that part about neville chamberlain in there? that's dumb as a box of mentally challenged hammers
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Fiodore Nevesky
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:53:00 -
[63]
This game can not handle blobs , the technology for servers to handle 1 k ppl in system just doenst exist and CCP knows that and the trend was to eliminate blobs by forcing them to cluster and encourage minor fleet sizes . Super caps and titans were supposed to be the solution to that as it was explianed many times by the devs now due to many whining by blobbers ccp had to nerf it and introduce a ******** substitute which is bombs which aint even worth bothering with , hell even defender missiles have more use. So all in all we are back to square one where loads of ppl just clog a system up till nodes keep crashing all over eve .
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Szprinkoth Sponsz
Invicta.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:00:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Or'Chan what we have here, is a chess piece that's incapable of seeing the board.
Chess just isn't as fun when you're a piece instead of a player.
Do the canary spin! |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:27:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Originally by: Or'Chan what we have here, is a chess piece that's incapable of seeing the board.
Chess just isn't as fun when you're a piece instead of a player.
I kindly disagree, i find most entretaining be a foot soldier ina huge strategy game.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
PimpstA
FireStar Inc FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:39:00 -
[66]
To be perfectly honest, I don't mind fleet battles at all, in fact I quite enjoy them. IF THEY WERE PLAYABLE!
When you wait the 2-7 hrs on a weekend and finally the fleet you have been preparing to fight turns up, you feel the adrenalin rush, lean into the monitor and .... well, wait 5-10 mins for the grid to load then try locking those you do see while in actual fact you are sitting in your cloned self back at some station.
My point. Lag ruins large scale PvP. CCP encourages this kind of game play yet does nothing to allow the mechanics to cope with it. Please stop expanding the game and try to solidify what we already have.
(BTW, I wrote something like this 3 years ago too )
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:41:00 -
[67]
Originally by: PimpstA To be perfectly honest, I don't mind fleet battles at all, in fact I quite enjoy them. IF THEY WERE PLAYABLE!
When you wait the 2-7 hrs on a weekend and finally the fleet you have been preparing to fight turns up, you feel the adrenalin rush, lean into the monitor and .... well, wait 5-10 mins for the grid to load then try locking those you do see while in actual fact you are sitting in your cloned self back at some station.
My point. Lag ruins large scale PvP. CCP encourages this kind of game play yet does nothing to allow the mechanics to cope with it. Please stop expanding the game and try to solidify what we already have.
(BTW, I wrote something like this 3 years ago too )
exaclty.
The solution is making fleet battles be ona more reasonable scale, like 50vs 50 or 80vs80 at most.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Domoso
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:42:00 -
[68]
I've been reading the forums the past few days. I'm new and trying to get my bearings with this game.
This thread is quite interesting in that it is shedding light on topics that so far are beyond my experience.
Suggestion: Perhaps limiting communications to systems or regions would help with the blobbing. Or perhaps slow down communications between systems and regions. The further out the people are you're trying to contact the longer the messages take to reach them. This would in effect make the gathering of such numbers of players prohibitively time consuming. Seems a simple solution to a complex problem. Granted folks could use an IM out of game but, how many of those people are going to take the time to input the numbers of players into their instant messengers they'll require to get a blob going? Not to mention the difficulties involved in coordinating those numbers of players across different IM networks. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would prohibitive.
Just the thoughts of a noob.
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Coltaine ShadowStrider You just dont get it. Some of...[shortened quote]...lag thats broken.
I've had a few fleet fights that haven't been too laggy, the 50v50 or so ones that are lots of fun. But not in the last year or more though.
Originally by: Herculite I'm not sure I understand what the argument is here.
It seems people are confusing a hate of BE's playstyle with a legitimate complaint on the direction CCP is taking EvE.
Anyone can still fly around in a small group and gank people not paying enough attention, but to accomplish anything major game wise, its requiring more and more of a blob and CCP seems to be facilitating that.
I'm personally getting a bit disheartened as skill becomes less and less of a factor and CCP seems to be listening to the loudest whines like a typical MMO. What made me love EvE over most MMO's was that the devs seemed immune to the whines, but as EvE gets bigger its falling into the same pattern.
I hope this is just a little burp, and things resume a more logical path in the near future.
Thanks. I did think some people would give me a tough time because of the corp name. I'm glad that the majority of people are thinking through this properly before replying. The thread's aim was not to do with tactics. I realise there is still fun to be had in EVE, or I would have left already. People do agree that it could be better PvP though.
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: PimpstA To be perfectly honest, I don't mind fleet battles at all, in fact I quite enjoy them. IF THEY WERE PLAYABLE!
When you wait the 2-7 hrs on a weekend and finally the fleet you have been preparing to fight turns up, you feel the adrenalin rush, lean into the monitor and .... well, wait 5-10 mins for the grid to load then try locking those you do see while in actual fact you are sitting in your cloned self back at some station.
My point. Lag ruins large scale PvP. CCP encourages this kind of game play yet does nothing to allow the mechanics to cope with it. Please stop expanding the game and try to solidify what we already have.
(BTW, I wrote something like this 3 years ago too )
exaclty.
The solution is making fleet battles be ona more reasonable scale, like 50vs 50 or 80vs80 at most.
Yeah, I think my favourite fight ever was 10vs10, and lasted 12 minutes or so. Both sides shared the same love of fighting and it was awesome.
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:05:00 -
[70]
POS is an opt-in game.
Alliances are an opt-in game.
I can find PVP without any of it. I have opted out. Everyone else can do whatever.
Logoffs
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:16:00 -
[71]
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 17:18:43
Problem:
CCP can't fix the lag by upgrading it's servers. It's not possible. Lag compared to number of players on a node is exponential. With 10 people in a fight, all the information about every pilot's actions has to be sent to all 10 other players. 10 packets of information sent to 10 people, 100 packets. With 100 people in a fight, 100 packets of information has to be sent to 100 people. 100 packets of information sent to 100 people, 10,000(!) packets. There is a limit to the technology and even if it was upgraded, it would make very little difference at high player counts.
This is why CCP said they wanted to counter the blob. However, it has gone wrong. Other things that were added have increased the need to bring larger and larger blobs to get things done.
So, what can CCP do? Well the two best suggestions given in this thread so far were: 1 - Remove the list of players in local in low sec/0.0. 2 - Remove reinforced mode on POSes.
So far, no one has given a reason as to why either of these two (very easy to implement) changes, would hurt the game. Not even the people arguing that PvP is so perfect for them already have explained why these changes would be bad.
ps. Cmdr Sy: Then this thread is not for you, please read the title next time.
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Sith8
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:21:00 -
[72]
Well .. people try and play this game the best they can without being blown up.. So Caged you shouldn¦t be surprised that ppl tend to bring large numbers against your cloaked damp Ravens..
Yes the Blob warfare is pretty much as Deep Throat described it, fact is that noone likes to loose and most will do whatever it takes to avoid losses, wether it is to log off, warp to POS or hang out cloaked on SS... it¦s all the same.
So CR are you a lil ticked off that your targets can warp to POS and be safe?.... tell you a lil sekrit, we hate it when you guys warp to safe and cloak.
----------------------- BE is the Chinese ISK farmer equivelent of PvP.. Yeah, That IS my Sig.
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Artthana
Minmatar Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:25:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Artthana on 31/07/2007 17:34:49 Edited by: Artthana on 31/07/2007 17:28:44 CagedRage I tend to agree with options 1 and 2. But most ideas look great at first glance (and even after further review ū ie CCPĘ s latest changes).
So lets brainstorm and figure out the reasons against your two options
Against 1
-makes it very very scare for new people to venture into 0.0 don't when a badie jumps in -makes hunting (solo or gang) in 0.0 incredibly boring (could spend hours looking for people)and then finding friendly players
Against 2 -leads to POSĘs flipping back and forth very fast (not sure if this is good or bad)
More?
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Rells
Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:32:00 -
[74]
I think people in pvp in this game tend to get in ruts. They dont think about new tactics or new ideas or new strategies, they simply try to come with massive firepower as the answer for all. Agony has been a very effective PVP organization since day one and we do things entirely different. The irony is that there never was a need to nerf the blob. The whole "nerf the blob" thing is an artificial construct created by people who cant THINK of new tactics.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Artthana
Minmatar Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:34:00 -
[75]
How about instead of killing local you change it a bit.
1. Each ship has a transponder (which puts you in local). Your TP is ether active or passive. 2. You are counted in local space in either state 3. In active you appear in local as normal. 4. Your TP has to be active to operate gates and stations 5. It takes a certain amount of time to switch from passive to active modes. (Maybe you can hacl the gate to allow passive jumps) 6. Make it possible (hack?) to access gate logs to see who has jumpped and when
This is not fleshed out yet.
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Artthana CagedRage I tend to agree with options 1 and 2. But most ideas look great at first glance (and even after further review ū ie CCPĘ s latest changes).
So lets brainstorm and figure out the reasons against your two options
Against 1 -makes it very very scare for new people to venture into 0.0 -makes hunting (solo or gang) in 0.0 incredibly boring (could spend hours looking for people) -could (not 100% about this one) force people to go after system with some sort of infrastructure to attack
-
Against 2 -leads to POSĘs flipping back and forth very fast (not sure if this is good or bad)
More?
Finding places to hunt wouldn't be any harder, you could still use the map to see the delayed player count in systems to find places to attack. One of the problems that option 1 also helps is that 0.0 space is too safe. The risk in being in 0.0 space is far too low to justify the rewards that people get for being out there. People would need to rely on scanning and probing more of course. People would actually need to work to protect their space before corp/alliance mates could rat/mine/plex/etc. A lot of people have agreed that 0.0 is very safe. Only because CONCORD has been boosted recently will I actually say that 0.0 is perhaps not safer than empire any more.
I agree that option 2 would be a bigger change. So many people say, "POS warfare is boring", though so if POSes could be taken down without having to wait days before you can finish them off (and then needing hundreds of pilots). This is harder to put in because of the balancing that would need to come with it.
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Artthana
Minmatar Acme Technologies Incorporated Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:39:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Rells I think people in pvp in this game tend to get in ruts. They dont think about new tactics or new ideas or new strategies, they simply try to come with massive firepower as the answer for all. Agony has been a very effective PVP organization since day one and we do things entirely different. The irony is that there never was a need to nerf the blob. The whole "nerf the blob" thing is an artificial construct created by people who cant THINK of new tactics.
Everything you said is true, agony's tactics (small frig EW) are fun. There are two problem though.
1. Lag is killing large scale PVP. 2. CCP keeps adding things to the game which promote large scale PVP.
Is all PVP broken? No. But the large scale battles are.
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Nimrias
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Posted - 2007.07.31 18:12:00 -
[78]
To OP: This thread has some great points. Thanks.
This problem is one of fundamental game mechanics. For the most part, individual pilot skill and SP has little to do with the outcome of most engagements. The main deciding factor is who has greater numbers. Sure you can win against odds if you have bigger ships or faster ships, but for 90%, it's all about numbers. I don't even bother hunting without at least one wingman.
There is no stabilizing mechanism (drawback) to prevent blobbing, so why not do it? More numbers = more favorable odds of a positive outcome in combat.
I agree with whoever said easy intel is a big part of the blob prob. Impervious cloaked ships, docked alts, and local make finding targets easy. How is it that your 10 BS gatecamp is always busted up by a numerically superior force of BS's? They have intel on you, and there's notthing you can do about it.
Just one man's opinion. Good luck in making PvP more fun than a gank here, and a gatecamp there. Good thread!
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Domoso
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Posted - 2007.07.31 18:21:00 -
[79]
Another post from this noob cuz I'm at work and I'm bored as hell.
The problems with all video games are 1) lack of knowledge in the player base of military strategy and tactics, 2) lack of knowledge in the developer base of military strategy and tactics, 3) lack of dynamics in a game. So, in the end it all boils down to force of numbers, pure and simple. I've never played a single game where tactics and strategy mean a hill of beans in the face of brute force. Many games have tried, none have accomplished it. Or maybe they did and so many people screamed it was unfair that the developers changed things to break it up. Well, life isn't fair. Why should games that strive to provide real time/life dynamics be any different. And in making it 'fair' the game developers are unfair to those that want the status quo.
In real life we fought between each other, then in bands, then tribes, then factions, then states and now nations. The progression in real life is the consolidation of power.
Since the servers obviously cannot handle this progression perhaps CCP would be wise in providing us more methods of fighting, obtaining power, stealing it from others, creating it ourselves rather than providing for larger scales of the few routes to wealth and power that we have available to us. Unfortunately, I doubt the game as designed and written is capable of giving us anything but more of the same.
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hantwo
S.A.S Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.31 19:25:00 -
[80]
Edited by: hantwo on 31/07/2007 19:26:56 Edited by: hantwo on 31/07/2007 19:25:52
Originally by: CagedRage Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 17:25:33
So, what can CCP do? Well the two best suggestions given in this thread so far were: 1 - Remove the list of players in local in low sec/0.0. 2 - Remove reinforced mode on POSes.
Two very good suggestions but unfortunatly CCP went with Bombs and sov and hey they are really working right
Why me eh? |
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Praesus Lecti
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:31:00 -
[81]
A fundamental rewrite of how stations function could go a long way to alleviating the problems we currently see with large scale battles.
As it sits right now, a POS and all it's associated bits and baubles all exist at one location. Therefore, to remove the station, the attacker must bring their fleet to that location. What I envision would be to make a single functional POS take up multiple locations. Allow me to explain:
You place a station at a planet (one station per system). By itself, it's a dead hulk. No power, nothing. First thing you need is power. You place Solar Collectors (different numbers based upon the size of the station) anywhere in the system. Now your station has power. Now it needs minerals for production. You place mining outposts at various belts and moons. At a given interval (differing based upon the minerals harvested) NPC controlled convoy ships appear at the outpost, and proceed to the Station. Your tower now has power and minerals. It now needs facilities. Those can be placed at the main Station as can a shield and other defensive weapons. Each mining outpost and solar collector can also have guns, but not on the scale of the main station.
So, in a system with 5 planets, 5 moons and 5 belts. You have 1 central station, 5 moon mining outposts and 5 belt mining outposts and say 5 solar collectors. Conquering a station would require a concerted attack on all the elements simultaneously. Taking out the Solar Collectors would cut the power, reducing the shields to minimal status. The station would then begin consuming the onboard minerals to power the guns and other defensive systems. As the supply on board is limited, you intercept and destroy the NPC caravans and eliminate the mining outposts. The station is now, basically, doomed unless a defending fleet can intercept. But that's not all.
You can't actually destroy anything once they are placed. What happens is everything goes off-line. The station is now devoid of defenses and a player with the correct skills (hacking or ewar) docks at the station and re-codes the system. The station now belongs to the attacking force. The station is still defenseless. Now all the offline modules have to be repaired and the station powered up.
The key to this is that the various components aren't all in the same location, and some do not have to be anchored at known locations. Mining outposts don't have to be anchored at the default warp location. As long as they sit within a set distance from a moon or belt, they can be brought online. The solar collectors can be placed anywhere in the system as long as its within 1.5 AU of the sun. Afterwards, once they changed hands, they could be unanchored and moved so the former owners would have to then locate them via the same means.
Skirmish warfare would have it's purpose through harassing/intercepting the NPC mineral convoys or randomly taking solar collects offline or off-lining the mining outposts. Scanning would allow these items to be located and warped provided you were within scanning range.
Spread out the targets and the blob will spread out with it. 10 smaller fights at 10 location sis better than 1 lagged out boring blob at 1 location. Prioritization then becomes a real concern. Save the collectors or save the mining ops or defend the station...choice is always good.
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:38:00 -
[82]
Remove local = remove blobs
Without the enemy seeing in local what numbers you have, they won't have this "quota" to match and outblob. Plus it opens up a whole set of tactical options, like having a light wing on gate, with reinforcements standing by in a out-of-scan-range safespot.
== Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
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maria stallion
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.31 22:49:00 -
[83]
Originally by: hydraSlav Remove local = remove blobs
Without the enemy seeing in local what numbers you have, they won't have this "quota" to match and outblob. Plus it opens up a whole set of tactical options, like having a light wing on gate, with reinforcements standing by in a out-of-scan-range safespot.
I don't if this is correct, if people can't see locale they will be blobbing up more maybe since they don't know how much people they need to fight.
I think POS warfare should change aswell, atm it takes to long to shoot them down and it can take weeks to get any progress.
The other problem that is starting now is that the one that controls the blob controls the eve server. It has come to a point where alliances need to bring so many people in a system so it will become unplayable for the opponent. When you got 400-500 people in local login in to eve can take up to 60 minutes before you get in to the system, and offcourse it wo't be playable with a ping of probally above 5 minutes, if not higher.
There should be a different system to take over system, maybe should a station in multiple stages, so the station holder get some time to defend the station and the attacker has to take some effort in taking it. For example: The attackers atack the station, they need to shoot in 5 stages, each stage has a waiting time of x amount and if all stages have been shot down they own the station and sov.
There have been mentionend some good alternatives, I just hope CCP won't be to stuborn to see that there current direction will lead to the end of pvp and therising of the era of pve.
BTW I agree with the op and people that say you just need adapt haven't been in fleet fights or haven't been fighting strong alliances, otherwise they would know there is almost nog pvp possible anymore.
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tikinish
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:05:00 -
[84]
Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 00:08:55
Originally by: Deep Throat Edited by: Deep Throat on 31/07/2007 06:39:23 Edited by: Deep Throat on 31/07/2007 06:37:23 First off nice to see BE complaining
2nd, the situation atm in eve is a total annihilation of everything that is fun. 99% of the ppl that play the game atm are either a) old timers who simply cant quit cause they been here so long and dont want to give all that time/work up b)new players c)isk farmers and their former amateur counterpart the "occasional" agent runners.
.
PLEASE make all this in a post by it self, so people will actually read it. this is the best (most realistic) way to fix the problem ever! :D
although a random spawning place in a ss would be much better when you jump though a stargate then any other system of this kind (to prevent the camps
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:07:00 -
[85]
People would blob more only for a few days without locl, then they would get tired and blob less and less.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Kamikaze Loco
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:16:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Kamikaze Loco on 01/08/2007 00:17:17 BE & CagedRage are some of the few real PvP'ers left in this game. Listen too what they say!!!
I hear they talk about AAA tower. The tower they refer to is very evil! It's the most evil tower of AAA and probably one of the most evil towers in eve.
CagedRage, you know AAA, you were memeber short time ago. AAA is not your usual alliance in eve, but a pure PVP alliance. Our towers will never be (and has never been) easy to take.
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MrJordanIOI
Minmatar The Lantern Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:52:00 -
[87]
Edited by: MrJordanIOI on 01/08/2007 00:52:26 Mostly agreeing with Deep Throat's post which summed it perfectly up, safe for maybe one item, the cloak, which I believe is also very much adding to the most unsupported element in the game:
-> UNPREDICTIBILITY <-
It is needed, it will help to reduce BlOBs and make this an interesting game yet again.
IOI
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Flack Nine
Minmatar WICKER MAN LABS
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Posted - 2007.08.01 01:30:00 -
[88]
"convoys with extensive cloaked scout support if the local chat is nerfed"
Best reason to nerf local ive heard yet, sounds like fun
why should you get local for free in 0.0 anyway if you want it so bad u should pay for it with isk or a mod prehaps. The frustration for me about 0.0 is that if you are not into large scale fleet battles theres little else you can do and because theres very little content in 0.0 eventually all you can do is blob each other and watch the computer freeze up. And whats the point in going through all of this to take the station/outpost which you then cant blow up or loot
Dont take the easy way out and demand nerfs to everything, everything should have a counter and 0.0 corps should be able to develop new ships and mods through events and reserch in fact all new ships/mods/bpo's/trade goods etc should come from 0.0 and bpo's removed from empire
frankly empire needs a shake up its stagnated to long and is way to big for the amount of influrance it should have on the game atm
Before ccp fulfills peoples expectations of large fleet combat they should add more content/risk to the area to make it more special and worth all the effort people put into it
And finally why is it that outposts and soverinty are the only long term lifestyle in 0.0 why cant motherships be just that a roaming home which your alliance can operate out of |
Sorja
E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.01 01:33:00 -
[89]
POSes killed the game for many, that's granted. That and caps/supercaps.
At times, PvP feels like work now, and that's just... weird. ____________________ A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Veng3ance
Illicit Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.01 01:40:00 -
[90]
Ummmmmmm.....
Make Medium and Small Pos's the only ones to contribute to Sov.?
That way Research, Manufacturing and capital yard Pos's are still hard to kill, but taking over a system would A) Take less people at a time or B) Allow a large force to split and fight multiple pos's at once.
Also, please, take out the Cyno Jammer, OR! Move it to Medium and Small Pos only
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prathe
Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.08.01 03:18:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Evil Pookie You could always just remove reinforced mode from posses. Please stay civil -Wachtmeister ([email protected])
signed , signed and signed again
having to return to some crap pos to finish it off is so freeking boring my naglafar loses it's ooooh big bang wow factor after 6hrs of continous pos sieges only to realize ill be back in 1-2 day to finish the job
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maria stallion
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.01 07:54:00 -
[92]
I just hope CCP will see the problem and won't continue the road they are walking now, every change they made so far made pvp worse and supported blobbing.
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Wayward Hooligan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.01 08:31:00 -
[93]
Until all of the other pvpers quit playing and the only people left on the servers are the Jita carebear crew and the isk farmers in 0.0.
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Lord MuffloN
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.08.01 09:27:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Lord MuffloN on 01/08/2007 09:27:38 Until there is none else to fight I'd guess and yes, I do think that POS warefare sucks, blobs too.
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.01 10:03:00 -
[95]
TBH there should be a huge direction from the dev team to penalise blobs i mean like hammer them down with the nerf bat. The bigger your fleet get you should be getting penalties and not bonuses imo like bigger lock time and smaller lock range etc. Removing local chat is just silly coz its just for lame low sec gankers who want to have more cheesy kills , it has 0 effect on blobs , like srsly ppl dotn know to check the map to see blobs or use scanner?
POS warefare is just boring , and ccp instead of making it less boring it made it more boring , you can now shoot structure outside so other team has to go rep it so on and so forth not to mention stations as well
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Gabriel Karade
Quam Singulari M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.08.01 10:47:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel TBH there should be a huge direction from the dev team to penalise blobs i mean like hammer them down with the nerf bat. The bigger your fleet get you should be getting penalties and not bonuses imo like bigger lock time and smaller lock range etc. Removing local chat is just silly coz its just for lame low sec gankers who want to have more cheesy kills , it has 0 effect on blobs , like srsly ppl dotn know to check the map to see blobs or use scanner?
I thought it may be interesting if with larger and larger fleets, there is an ever increasing error in warp-in positions (think overlapping warp tunnels interfering) such that, for say 100+ ships, you could be scattered over 1000km or more.
That way with huge numbers youĘd actually end up with lots of smaller fights scattered over multiple neighbouring grids.
----------
Video - 'War-Machine' |
Stitcher
Caldari legion of qui Freelancer Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:03:00 -
[97]
Edited by: Stitcher on 01/08/2007 11:04:52
Originally by: CagedRage Think back a couple years or maybe more and remember what you loved about EVE Online.
Everything that I still love about it today. The sense of scale, the depth, the intricacy, the backstory, the design, the appearance, the style, the potential, the flexibility, the culture.
I love that I'm playing a game where I'm one of the YOUNGER players, as opposed to one of the oldest. I love that I can sit down and have a political discussion with my friends from the perspective of actually being able to make a difference. I love that I can get on Teamspeak and lead fleets in battle.
During my time in this game, I've seen the release and expansion of capital-class vessels, I've seen subtle changes to the way most of the game's modules and strategies work at some point, I've seen new features implemented, old features revised - I've seen this game evolve, but it is still, fundamentally, the same game that I started playing two years ago.
Despite all the changes - it's still the same. Just... better. Less laggy (OMGWTF? I hear you cry? It's true!) more tactical, more strategic, more flexible, more open, more cunning. More of the same, with less of the bad.
The only thing that's changed for the worse, as far as I can tell, is that(Incoming flame/troll alert!) the EVE community has by and large gone from being a mature, patient bunch of intelligent people to being a circus of petulant, impatient whining children who complain about things that, 90% of the time, they have NO INTELLIGENT OR INFORMED OPINION ON WHATSOEVER. (Not directed at anyone in particular - this does not necessarily mean YOU, dear reader, but this is nevertheless my opinion of the collective EVE community as a whole)
To my mind, this game has only ever changed for the better. Over time, however... I think the community has changed for the worse. If I am ever driven from this game, it will not be because of a change in the mechanics of the game, or any action of CCP - it will be because I finally decided not to put up with the incessant COMPLAINING for an instant longer. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
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Cryogenix DarkMatter
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:30:00 -
[98]
I'm new, so stop me if I am wrong, but as I under stand the complaint....
Players can buy build own a defence platform, equip it nice weps and then hide within its range of damage, the answer to this seems so very simple, for any element in the game there should be a flip side, or a counter to it. Why not just create a new missile, or torpedo thats uses stealth, have its range massive so it can be fired out of range of the turret, the missile then tracks its target slowly, and every now and then stops decloaks reacquires its target cloaks and then goes again. the station or platform would need to have people watching for the torpedo coming or be lucky that it decloaked close enough for the station to lock on and kill it. there should be a mechanic involved to make those missiles rare something a corp has to work on getting as a group so that there aren't tons of them around. and it shouldn't be a one shot kill deal. it should take a few.
As for the blobbing, thats a new word to me but I kinda understand what your on about, one large mass of allied ships all blobbed together to attack an enemy foe.
Solution to that is also so simple its scary, have ships give off emitions that jam radar and tracking, the more ships you group the greater the reduction in your ships abilities due to growing emitions.
This would then force blobs to be much smaller, groups of 3 or 4 ships per blob and more spread out to cut down on the emition interference, this would also sptread out big battle warfare and need a lot more communication between leaders and their soldiers to coordinate attacks properly.
And I think thats what you all want. isnt it ?
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Eth1
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:39:00 -
[99]
Whine, whine, whine, whine, Everyone wants to kill fast. If YOU want to kill fast, go play counter strike. Eve Online is a slow evolve game. Adapt or begone.
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:40:00 -
[100]
Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/08/2007 11:40:26 Imo the hitpoint buff was the biggest blow to pvp. Swarmed capital ships should be vulnerable to support, with the extra hitpoints and remote repping the battleship fleet was dealt a blow it has never quite recovered from.
Sweaty palms pvp died when the battleship was eclipsed by cheap stupidly powerful capital ships.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:46:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Gabriel Karade I thought it may be interesting if with larger and larger fleets, there is an ever increasing error in warp-in positions (think overlapping warp tunnels interfering) such that, for say 100+ ships, you could be scattered over 1000km or more.
That way with huge numbers youĘd actually end up with lots of smaller fights scattered over multiple neighbouring grids.
Hm, this would lead to:
- people warping to the FC after a long warp (i.e. a couple of seconds' delay till it's a blob again)
- annoying situations with hostiles popping in and out of grid and basically lots of 1v1 (sort by distance...) where your gang composition and tactics do not matter anymore
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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maria stallion
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:47:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Eth1 Whine, whine, whine, whine, Everyone wants to kill fast. If YOU want to kill fast, go play counter strike. Eve Online is a slow evolve game. Adapt or begone.
You need to read the op's thread before making a comment maybe, the changes has nothing to do with evolving, because if all the major alliances changed there tactics right now and fight like we need to fight you can expect that eve will crash every night multiple times. Every alliance needs to bring all there members to a system to counter it, what will happen is that major alliance will get over 600 people in 1 system which will result in the server dying.
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Yazoul Samaiel
Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.01 11:59:00 -
[103]
Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/08/2007 11:40:26 Imo the hitpoint buff was the biggest blow to pvp. Swarmed capital ships should be vulnerable to support, with the extra hitpoints and remote repping the battleship fleet was dealt a blow it has never quite recovered from.
Sweaty palms pvp died when the battleship was eclipsed by cheap stupidly powerful capital ships.
HP or super caps after rev 2 nerf dont matter for nothing when ur in a blobbed system with 600 or 700 + ppl , If you get lagged or dysnched or what ever your dead no matter what ship ur in and the problem is that there is nothing thats beign done to discourage ppl to use blobs.
Yeah warping error would be nice sicne ppl will have the risk of being totaly aloen for the rest of the fleet but how will it coutner a huge blob sitting on a gate or pos waiting for ya to jump or warp to ?
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Gabriel Karade
Quam Singulari M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:07:00 -
[104]
Well unless you're prepared to slow-boat hundreds, maybe even a thousand km in a Battleship you'd never get the blob formed up - the idea was that as the 'mass' of ships in the area increases, the warp accuracy for everyone falls-off rapidly, so even if you try warping to the FC one at a time, eventually the mass of ships in the area dictates huge inaccuracies in warping.
Just a thought, because if you canĘt bring hundreds of ships to bear into one tiny section of grid, perhaps people wonĘt try? But rather, split battles across the system/systems?
Clearly something drastic has to change as the current system is untenable.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.08.01 13:10:00 -
[105]
The main point wrong is that theres absolutely nothing in the game as it is now that discourages blobbing, and with each new patch more things are added that encourage blobbing.....
1. Station services being shootable. Ridiculous amount of hit points, requiring a blob to disable, and a blob to repair. And what is the 'reward' for it in terms of fun? Absolutely nothing. When you arrive with your fleet of 50+ BS to shoot the services, you'll usually be doing it when the enemy can't defend, meaning all you get is the excitement of shooting structures. Same with repping the services, endless mindnumbing repping, sitting within dock range so you can dock. No passive defences available either. You have to bring your own blob!
2. POS structures being shootable and not able to defend themselves anymore. Similar to station services. Requires a blob to disable, and a blob to repair, do it while the enemy is not active, no fights, no fun! The POS are not able to defend themselves at all so again, you have to bring your own blob!
3. Bombs.... Doesn't matter at all! A 'blob' is not X ships gathered within a certain (small) radius. A 'blob' is enough people in system/grid to make it lagged to death! Besides, bombs are so gimped they're laughable. Not even mentioning the price, having to bring a stealth bomber to the front for every 1-2 bombs you TRY to drop is laughable (stealth bombers inside an enemy group of ships will NOT survive long enough for their bomb to go off).
4. Mothership ECM thingy.... Doesn't matter at all! Nobody in their right mind brings a mothership into a lagged (blobby) battle.
5. Titan nerf. While titans had an obvious balance problem, they WERE an effective antiblob weapon! Personally when the nerf was incoming (and everyone knew it), I was thinking that they should be nerfed offensively, but not defensively. That could easily have been done by requiring that you held sov or were friendly to the sov holder to be able to set off a DD. That way they would be valuable defensive and logistics tools, but of more limited use offensively.
Blobs are the thing that make the servers deficiencies stand out! If blobbing was not so effective (and required by game mechanics), it wouldn't matter that the nodes couldn't handle 300+ people in a fight, because there'd be no need for it!
Much as I hate to say it, POS warfare was actually BETTER before the recent moving of structures outside the shield. At least then you'd only have to shoot and repair structures at a limited basis (i.e. when a serious attempt were being made against sov), whereas now it seems that its just 'shoot structure', 'repair strucure'... again and again....
Blob control is what is needed..... Blob control down to a level where the server can support the fights going on....
How about a thing like a 'Cascade Smart-Bomb', where damage/range is proportional (for damage exponential) to (enemy/all) ships on grid (no warning time either....). Damage given is 4*X*X, range is 2*X km, where X is number of ships on grid. This (or something similar) would discourage ALL parties in fights from bringing Blob's....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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consider telos
Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:08:00 -
[106]
I agree with pretty much all that's being said here. All the new patches are just encouraging blobbing. When ccp write up the design documents it looks good on paper. You ned new stuff to let the game grow. But, in reality it doesn't work. For instance, the bombs, they don't work. They're supposed to discourage blobs, but the blobs are already formed and lagging out the system by the time you can use the bombs, so that doesn't help lag. It's too late. Also, the whole constellation sovereignty is a pain. An alliance becomes more bedded in, and thus requires more firepower to remove them. Shooting at a pos or cyno jammer for ages does not equal fun. It's exruciatingly boring. Last pos we took down, I loaded up guild wars to pass the time. I was itching to ctrl q out the game, but it was the right thing to do, to stick around for an alliance op. Ccp, doesn't this tell you something's wrong? The way the games going it's going to get worse. Unfortunately I don't think ccp will do much about it. They've kind of painted themselves into a corner. Too much time has probably been invested in this design document to back track.
Direction game mechanics are going = more blob = more lag = less playable
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Herculite
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:19:00 -
[107]
CCP has three choices, two good, one bad.
1. Fix lag. Blobbing wouldn't be so bad if you could DO something in them. Hell I wouldn't mind fighting outnumbered 3-1 if I had a chance to use hit and run and the like but thats just not possible with lag. When you feel like flying your ship is more like driving the mars rover, its not fun.
2. Fix blobs. Remove the NEED to blob. Its not that these blobs are just the product of big alliances, its that you need them do do anything on the alliance level. Add to it that the game has grown so you just have more people playing. You need the blob and you have the man power to create them. The servers can't handle it, and if they can't handle it in the near future, remove the need for them until they can.
3. Ignore it. Easy solution for CCP, would have a lot of long time players looking for the next game. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:47:00 -
[108]
Edited by: Kerfira on 01/08/2007 14:49:16
Originally by: Herculite 1. Fix lag.
Will never work sufficiently. Unless the need for and advantages for blobbing is removed, better servers will just mean bigger blobs.
Originally by: Herculite 2. Fix blobs. Remove the NEED to blob.
Removing the need is not enough. The advantage to blobbing will need to be removed as well.....
Originally by: Herculite 3. Ignore it. Easy solution for CCP, would have a lot of long time players looking for the next game.
CCP will choose this one Personally I'm on the verge of giving up EVE entirely since it seems like it is just endless shoot/repair structures, or totally lagged out blobfest with very little fun in-between I don't WANT to leave EVE (only MMO in the world that has real scope), but when a game fustrates you more than it entertains you.......
I so hope CCP gets their h*** out of their a**..... Forget about the 'need for speed', forget about everything else. Simply hit ANYONE who bring more than ~50-100 ships to a fight with a nerfbat bigger than an extemely large and heavy nerfbat! THEN, adjust the rest of the game to fit that!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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MasterTao
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:50:00 -
[109]
Maybe add a kind of artillery ship that shoot emp blasts or something. The weapon can be shoot without tracking and detonate at the point where the ship is/was when the weapon was used, or a scout ship can shoot tags on enemies for artillery without the need for LoS.
The damage covers a decent area with the center taking the most damage and spread out as the blast disperse and shouldn't be as devastating as Doomsday but significant so that a group of artillery ships can annailate a cluster of ships if used correctly.
something like that o.-
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maria stallion
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.01 14:53:00 -
[110]
I think since the recent patches, this thread deserves a sticky just so ccp would maybe check it out :)
Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea if CCP sat down a virtual table to talk with some pvp alliances and corps to get a better understanding of the problems eve has at the moment.
I just hope CCP will handle quick because there won't be much pvp left in 0.0 at this rate.
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 16:38:00 -
[111]
Edited by: CagedRage on 01/08/2007 16:39:45 Edited by: CagedRage on 01/08/2007 16:38:22
Originally by: Eth1 Whine, whine, whine, whine, Everyone wants to kill fast. If YOU want to kill fast, go play counter strike. Eve Online is a slow evolve game. Adapt or begone.
Eth1, it's comments like that that make CCP think people don't care. No intelligence and no argument at all as to why I'm wrong or anything. As welsh wizard says:
Originally by: welsh wizard Sweaty palms pvp died when the battleship was eclipsed by cheap stupidly powerful capital ships.
The game has changed, and it's changed for the worse. The vast majority of the people in this thread agree. (Most of the people who disagree seem to be people from my previous alliance who are probably annoyed that I joined UDIE...). That only happened really because I wasn't getting enough fights while I did fly with Collective.
Originally by: Kamikaze Loco BE & CagedRage are some of the few real PvP'ers left in this game. Listen too what they say!!!
I hear they talk about AAA tower. The tower they refer to is very evil! It's the most evil tower of AAA and probably one of the most evil towers in eve.
CagedRage, you know AAA, you were memeber short time ago. AAA is not your usual alliance in eve, but a pure PVP alliance. Our towers will never be (and has never been) easy to take.
Hehe, yeah, well I was watching what was coming through your jump portal and decided to make a thread about this because I had been thinking about it for several months.
-A- is a good alliance to be in. As far as alliances go. Most of the members love to PvP and it's a nice environment. I feel that some of these changes would benefit -A- also. I think it would benefit anyone who likes to PvP in EVE actually. If something like POS reinforced mode was removed it would change the game play in a very large way... It would take a while to get used to. Removing the local name list would be awesome for your roaming gangs and would help you catch all those ratters in your systems, hah.
People keep suggesting things to add to the game. We need to be careful with that, because it's exactly what has happened before. It's things that have been added already that CCP needs to remove but they are worried about doing so.
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Jane Vladmir
Gallente Applied Eugenics
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:16:00 -
[112]
Originally by: WalronS i am in the same opinion as you. the pvp (?) experience in eve according to me is like that: %5 pvp (player vs player as we all know) %10 gvg (gang vs gang) %85 gvp (gang vs PLAYER) = blobbing!
That pretty much covers the pvp currently going on on Tranq. The 5% is most of the time 1 consensual player vs 1 non-consensual player until either one of them explodes or the non-consensual player gets backup.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:29:00 -
[113]
Quote: I think for quite a while its been a forgone conclusion that:
1. CCP is consistently and repeatedly making changes to the POS/sovereignty system that encourage and/or require blobbing to occur.
2. The servers cannot handle such blobbing.
Every new change has increased the need for blobs. Examples:
Cyno jammers force enemies to bring massive swarms of small ships instead of capital ships.
Titan nerf, while in many ways justified, eliminates one of the last big blob-busters of the game.
In the end, most of the best PvPers will either quit or join roaming PvP corporations like INFOD, TOXIN, etc. Alliance warfare sucks, and everyone knows it.
you need to be able to think a bit deeper to understand the TRUE issue and problem with eve pvp. The problem is not so much with CCP and the things they do it is with the player base players like you I am sure. In eve the consequences for dying are fairly high, so players will avoid dying at all costs. How best to do this? Oh ya BLOB your target. You cannot die if you are flying in the safety of 20 roaming around killing groups of 1-5 people, and then someone says hey lets kill that mini blob of 20! okay round up 60 people lets go get them!, and then you get the next blob of 240 to kill the 60 etc yada yada yada.
You see it is the chicken crap playerbase that eve ended up with because of how CCP catered generally to wimpy pvp, more like player killing and bully pvp. So the players that ended up staying in eve for the most part are bully pvpers they play eve because they can avoid a fair fight REALLY easily. you got rampant suicde ganking in empire..... you somehow expect robust pvp from a game that lets you blow your ship up on purpose to make money? the very premise of the game is supposed to be NOT to blow your ship up....yet the best way to make money in eve is to blow your ship up... So what eve is left with is all these wimpy bully pvper's any surprise there is blob warfare? Any shock that these types of players amass blobs to avoid the chance they might be the ones being ganked for once?
POS.... oh yes why are POS so heavily defended and hard to kill..... Oh yeah!!! it is the wimpified playerbase, because anything less than a very difficult POS to kill would end up resulting in constant late nite ninja POS killing as the wimpy playerbase would always choose to attack their enemy when non were online to defend it...why? well because and undefended POS = safe gank! and all the carebear pvp'ers filling up EVE love sa***ank! and CCP has allowed them to enjoy the life of sa***ank since day 1.
So CCP is stuck in a catch 22, most anyone who enjoys quality hardcore competitive PvP is long gone from EVE, and what is left is all the carebear player killer types who blob etc for sa***ank!, if CCP makes any changes to remove their sa***ank! they will cry whine and quite eve because they cannot handle risky pvp and dying frequently. Meanwhile they will be hardpressed to get back all the true hardcore competitive pvp types who alreayd tried eve through out the years and left after seeing all the loop holes CCP was unwilling to fix to force all the sa***ank carebears into competitive pvp.
Notice that any mention of instanced or systems with some type of hardcap instantly get insulted and called WOW? why because if you do something like that OMG WE CANNOT WIN BY BLOBBING!!! My 40 man fleet might have to fight another 40 man fleet and OMG THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE MY SHIP MIGHT GET BLOWN UP!!!!! Make no mistake the instanced pvp in wow or guildwars is 10 times better pvp than anything eve has to offer, unless you're one of those wimpy gankbears eve is filled with.....
The truth hurts but non the less it is the truth. Blobs will exist in eve until CCP goes against the grain and does something to penalize those carebear pvp gankbears and blobbers, and that type of gamer are the biggest/loudest board whiners of all time....
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:38:00 -
[114]
OH also I will ad CCP really made a huge mistake the with caps and super caps, they are soooooooooooooo much more powerful than everything else below them, they really should have been a fairly marginal step up from BS's.... I mean seriously hundreds of thousands of HP? complete and utter IWIN ship unless you muster a blob and find one solo....funny that CCP nerfed BS once upon a time because they were the solo pwnmobile so that now a few frigates and a cruiser or 2 can wtfBBQ a BS, but then they turn around and introduce cap ships that make the old solo pwnmobile BS look like a scordite asteroid in terms of power....Just do not understand the logic probably because there isnt any.
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tikinish
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:52:00 -
[115]
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=567610&page=1
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.08.01 17:53:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
Notice that any mention of instanced or systems with some type of hardcap instantly get insulted and called WOW? why because if you do something like that OMG WE CANNOT WIN BY BLOBBING!!!
quite true imho:)
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 18:47:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 [removed words to save space - read up for full quote]
I remember plenty of times when I have been in a gang and gone to fight against odds or with even numbers. You can't always get enough players online unless it's a CTA that was declared 48 hours or so before.
Suicide ganking in empire is no longer profitable tbh. Please read up about the changes to CONCORD.....
A hard to kill POS taken down late at night could be countered by a counter-attack against the original aggressor's POSes instead of just a defensive move. Resulting in more territory moves and momentum where as right now virtually nothing happens at all. People aren't prepared to be on in the middle of the night to take down POSes anyway. Different time zones could cause problems though ofc.
The trouble with instanced areas is that if people flood to those and then not actually fight anywhere else... Thus making 0.0 even more safe and all the politics and territory fights rare. It also takes away from the feeling that your actions affect the universe as a whole, rather than feeling like a tournament (which could be held on the test server so everyone had equal chances...). There is a reason why not that many people play on the test server (where you can always do PvP but it's not as fun).
When people do blob, it's because they need to. Loosing zero ships is more profitable. If there was no local channel, taking a large amount of ships out would be a big risk because there could be a larger gang (always a bigger fish) in one system who could kill you, where as smaller gangs would have better communication between the members, more options with tactics, and less of a blow if something goes wrong.
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Ihar Enda
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:06:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Ihar Enda on 01/08/2007 19:06:57
Originally by: Ithica Ramlix
Originally by: WalronS
Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react.
So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics.
I have read other forums about removing local from 0.0, and I have to admit it would make 0.0 10 times more dangerous, however it does also have great benefits and the above solution to the blob problem is IMO the BEST example of this. All of a sudden a huge fleet is now vulnerable to hit and fade, raid style tactics that would revitalize the excitement of the otherwise slow and grinding fleet battles. This would also give the smaller ships attached to cap fleets something to do while sieging a POS... and increase the need for anti-gorilla hunting parties, with the emphasis on staying fast and mobile. This would also mean that the bigger fleet also has to put more on the line because it has to be better protected... so the advantage swings in favor of the smaller mobile force rather then the huge blob.
QFMFT.
Remove local from low sec while you're at it.
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Ridley Tree
The Black Rabbits
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:12:00 -
[119]
Edited by: Ridley Tree on 01/08/2007 19:12:25
Originally by: Ihar Enda Edited by: Ihar Enda on 01/08/2007 19:06:57
Originally by: Ithica Ramlix
Originally by: WalronS
Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react.
So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics.
I have read other forums about removing local from 0.0, and I have to admit it would make 0.0 10 times more dangerous, however it does also have great benefits and the above solution to the blob problem is IMO the BEST example of this. All of a sudden a huge fleet is now vulnerable to hit and fade, raid style tactics that would revitalize the excitement of the otherwise slow and grinding fleet battles. This would also give the smaller ships attached to cap fleets something to do while sieging a POS... and increase the need for anti-gorilla hunting parties, with the emphasis on staying fast and mobile. This would also mean that the bigger fleet also has to put more on the line because it has to be better protected... so the advantage swings in favor of the smaller mobile force rather then the huge blob.
QFMFT.
Remove local from low sec while you're at it.
QFMFT¦
Would revitalize this game so much.
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The Ridley Tree Productions Vault of Videos |
CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:16:00 -
[120]
Edited by: CagedRage on 01/08/2007 19:19:24 I'd quote that and add a 3 but I might get banned for spamming quote pyramids hahaha!
In regards to this edit:
Originally by: Evil Pookie You could always just remove reinforced mode from posses. Please stay civil -Wachtmeister ([email protected])
I disagree Wachtmeister. I don't see where he wasn't being civil. He was making an observation and he couldn't really have said that any politer, talk to him and you will find out why he thinks that way.
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Gagarish
Amarr VVS Corporition Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.08.01 19:47:00 -
[121]
Have 1 thing to say. BE - stop using silly cloacking devises on ravens, dictors etc. And maybe people will fight you.
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Gort
Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:18:00 -
[122]
Let me add my repeated mantra....
1. Remove local (in some form - either totally or partially) from 0.0, and 2. Remove reinforced mode from POSes.
I support both those concepts, just as I supported warp to zero.
Come on, CCP. You know you want (need) to.
Bring back the days when all I needed was a Rifter and an attitude.
Regards,
Gort
-- When in doubt, empty the magazine. |
CagedRage
BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 20:52:00 -
[123]
Edited by: CagedRage on 01/08/2007 20:54:06
Originally by: Gagarish Have 1 thing to say. BE - stop using silly cloacking devises on ravens, dictors etc. And maybe people will fight you.
Wrong thread... We are trying to have an intelligent discussion here. The aim, as you obviously did not read a more than two sentances of it, is to try and improve the game for the PvPers out there. Please refrain from making yourself look like a fool in my thread again. kthxbai, CR.
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Nanobotter Mk2
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Posted - 2007.08.01 22:11:00 -
[124]
Quote: I remember plenty of times when I have been in a gang and gone to fight against odds or with even numbers. You can't always get enough players online unless it's a CTA that was declared 48 hours or so before.
Well I was being general there are some players like you not alot though.
Quote: Suicide ganking in empire is no longer profitable tbh. Please read up about the changes to CONCORD.....
Sure it is just alot tougher with frieghters.
Quote: A hard to kill POS taken down late at night could be countered by a counter-attack against the original aggressor's POSes instead of just a defensive move. Resulting in more territory moves and momentum where as right now virtually nothing happens at all. People aren't prepared to be on in the middle of the night to take down POSes anyway. Different time zones could cause problems though ofc.
sure it could be better I was just pointing out if they become easy to kill people will ninja kill. If you ever played DAOC you will understand well the average player mentality when it comes to taking over territory.
Quote: The trouble with instanced areas is that if people flood to those and then not actually fight anywhere else... Thus making 0.0 even more safe and all the politics and territory fights rare. It also takes away from the feeling that your actions affect the universe as a whole, rather than feeling like a tournament (which could be held on the test server so everyone had equal chances...). There is a reason why not that many people play on the test server (where you can always do PvP but it's not as fun).
I disagree here I mean lets be real in eve your actions really do NOT affect the universe. Owning a POS really has no true affect on the universe. right now you might not have the tournement type feel but you do have a mindless pointless ganking feel to pvp not sure it is any better. either way it is a difficult nut to *****. Personally I like the idea of instead putting severe penalites on blobs and limiting the number of hostile players that can target and attack another players ship somehow.
Quote: When people do blob, it's because they need to. Loosing zero ships is more profitable. If there was no local channel, taking a large amount of ships out would be a big risk because there could be a larger gang (always a bigger fish) in one system who could kill you, where as smaller gangs would have better communication between the members, more options with tactics, and less of a blow if something goes wrong.
It could create the exact opposite to be frank. You already hear the whines regarding afk cloakers and how people refuse to play when there is one in there system. People might simple find out hrrm I AM NEVER SAFE unless i am in a huge blob because of people who will start to roam around in gank squads. Most of the problem stems from the fact that you have no true defense in eve. either you are ganked or not. You got zero chance to get away from bad numbers you will be tackled and webbed and those work with 100% certainty. So either you are out to gank or your ganked and the gankers know that and abuse it. they know that provided they never engage another ganker group their victims will not have scramblers and webs fitted. so they can always be sure to get away. some mechanics really need to change to combat and warping rules.
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Deep Throat
Amarr AJAX.
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Posted - 2007.08.01 23:16:00 -
[125]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2 Quote: When people do blob, it's because they need to. Loosing zero ships is more profitable. If there was no local channel, taking a large amount of ships out would be a big risk because there could be a larger gang (always a bigger fish) in one system who could kill you, where as smaller gangs would have better communication between the members, more options with tactics, and less of a blow if something goes wrong.
It could create the exact opposite to be frank. You already hear the whines regarding afk cloakers and how people refuse to play when there is one in there system. People might simple find out hrrm I AM NEVER SAFE unless i am in a huge blob because of people who will start to roam around in gank squads. Most of the problem stems from the fact that you have no true defense in eve. either you are ganked or not. You got zero chance to get away from bad numbers you will be tackled and webbed and those work with 100% certainty. So either you are out to gank or your ganked and the gankers know that and abuse it. they know that provided they never engage another ganker group their victims will not have scramblers and webs fitted. so they can always be sure to get away. some mechanics really need to change to combat and warping rules.
Here is where u should look at my proposals.
If the game changes, with say more available routes, more gates, no local... creating both MORE VERSATILITY, MORE UNPREDICTABILITY with alot of fog of war.. your statement would simply not make sense..
If this were to happen i believe this would be a 100 times more interesting game than it is now, with tactics really coming into play for the first time, guerilla style warfare coming back in a much more truer form than has been displayed in the past(which was mostly BE style,long range WCS crap anyways) a true platform for smaller gangs with faster and better communication being totally capable of doing alot of things to a much bigger force for the very first time...
This game would then move out from its stale,rotten, heavy blob syndrome style to a much more fluid, actually the best combat game available(instead of just having the potential to be) and the NEED to blob would be shrinked alot...
although not totally unless the pos, pos module crap is totally overhauled along with the hitpoint/damage nerf patch
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Dirk Speirs
Gallente Spontaneous Defenestration
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Posted - 2007.08.01 23:42:00 -
[126]
I agree with the op, that is all.
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Adamant Stehl
Cirrius Technologies O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.08.02 03:47:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Adamant Stehl on 02/08/2007 03:50:02 -Remove Local from 0.0 ū at least try it on test for a while. This would be my main suggestion.
-Allow alliances that have sovereignty over a system to be able to see local. all people that jump into the system are visible in local to alliance players for the alliance that has sovereignty
-Make Sovereignty requirements steeper then just spamming a POS in systems. The number of alliance players in a particular system should create points that indicate sovereignty; meaning, base sovereignty on a population count and system use (mining, ratting, having a physical player presence in a system). There are systems in 0.0 with POSĘs but no actual players spending any time in them. This would force alliances to have players be in actual systems that they are claiming.
-Make 1v1 or small gang pvp more rewarding and desirable. I have no idea how to do that, sorry ū just wishing that more encounters in pvp were balanced-non-blobs.
In one of the Dev blobs, CCP is relating that they want to create anti-blob tools so maybe that is a start; something cheaper and easier to move then a Titan so that any alliance or corp can have such tools??
I have been a part of to many fleet ops waiting and waiting and waiting more
Conversely, have found the only consistent level of action is in low sec were everyone is a pirate / pvp. Almost good enough.
It is easy to understand the desire of CCP to create a long term strategic game giving hardcore players the opportunity to compete and control space and build an Empire / Nation. That should be in fact encouraged. In that sense, the way POSĘs have been designed to function in EVE is creative; they do take a considerable amount of dedication to build, place and maintain. Hats off to that.
But 0.0 does need more danger and to be less predicable Limiting or removing Local from 0.0 can provide some opportunities ū
1.It makes scouting much more important 2.Piracy can now move out of low sec space in which smaller gangs or solo pirates and pvpers could be more prevalent in 0.0 3.You can give alliances tools to hunt down and find unwanted traffic in local 0.0 systems; also can give Sovereignty more meaning about who controls a particular real-estate and how active they are about defending their space. 4.As in true warfare, not knowing where your enemy is or locating your enemy before they know you know they are there is part of a rich history of warfare. 5. Add more NPC stations to 0.0 space. Regions like PureBlind or systems like P-F and P-V in venal have a greater amount of hostile and pvpers because of the safe haven NPC stations offer and thus more action.
Just my 2 cents.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein
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Herculite
Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.02 05:59:00 -
[128]
You know reading all these threads lately I'm starting to wonder if they really care if pvpers stick around.
As long as their servers are maxed, does it matter if its a noob or a 4 year vet playing?
Keeping the 'professional' pvper happy is hard work and expensive. Most of EvE's pvp flaws don't show themselves until you have played for a long time, and by then do they figure any more play time is just gravy for them?
I really hope my thoughts on this are wrong, but I'm thinking perhaps this is closer to the truth than any of us want to admit.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie |
Caia
Gallente Scrutari The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2007.08.02 08:32:00 -
[129]
The amount of players who play the game continues to rise, so CCP must be doing something right. And this isn't to say that you're all wrong -- I happen to agree with a good chunk of what's been said here. However, the problem is that people aren't leaving the game because of it.
If people go elsewhere and let CCP know why they're going, change will happen sooner than later. This isn't a call to boycott or any such thing like that. I like the game a lot and I'm not into PvP (mostly because its impossible to find a 1v1 fight and I HATE POS camping (though, if these things changed, I'd certainly reconsider)). People keep paying money for Eve. People keep joining the community.
The best thing they could do for a PvP fix would be to allow factional warfare. If I'm at -5 or worse with the Caldari and I'm flying in Caldari space, any Caldari pilots should have the right to open fire. IF they do, I have the option of firing back. A little 1v1 in empire space? Sounds good to me. Of course, this is only the very beginning of an idea. It would need to be ironed out and whatnot. But its very doable, and it would allow people to PvP without all the blobbing that goes on.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.02 08:43:00 -
[130]
I want free flight and joystick control, then my mad twitch gaming skilz can be the deciding factor in pvp, as is its not much more interesting than pve
Real men fly Pink.
I've been living in your cassette, It's the modern equivalent, singing up to a Capulet, on a balcony in |
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SW Gark
Gallente Polaris Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.02 13:31:00 -
[131]
Edited by: SW Gark on 02/08/2007 13:31:32 .
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Death Kill
Caldari direkte
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Posted - 2007.08.02 13:34:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Nanobotter Mk2
sure it could be better I was just pointing out if they become easy to kill people will ninja kill. If you ever played DAOC you will understand well the average player mentality when it comes to taking over territory.
AHRG! Dont compare EVE with rubbish grinders.
Caldari and proud |
maria stallion
Destructive Influence Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.08.02 14:10:00 -
[133]
maybe a way to get some attention is to blob some systems and start shooting a pos to crash the eve server :P
[/ebil mode=off]
however a official thread about the current pvp problems and not only desync problems would be nice, atleast people would get the feeling CCP is trying to fix the mess they made.
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Nigbale Amare
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.08.02 14:56:00 -
[134]
I'm thinking - as a sollution - to cap the number of ships in each opposing alliance in a system at some point. With some bonuses to attackers maybe.
Let's say you have a system you must defend - your alliance guys that can be in at any time is say 50 and then they can't come in - after that only opposing alliance ships are allowed up to a maximum number of 70 ships.
When one dies another ship can be admitted. Then you could use this knowledge to send in reinforcements in packs - like wait for 10 to die then send in the xxx.
This could be further refined as to have something like "slots" for each ship class/type. Like from 50 ships you can have 2capitals/5bb/20 frigates/and so on and so forth - i'm not in the know and i won't speculate on the numbers furhter but i'm sure you get the idea.
This reinforcements method has been successfully used in games like "shogun total war" and to some extent - even in WoW battlegrounds system.
Also some kind of defense mechanisms could be fitted on the gates of the conquered system and they would have to be destroyed in order for the enemy fleet to proceed in.
Also the NotBlueetc... policies could be enforced on these gates so that their guns will first threaten the player then after a countdown or if attacked - start shooting.
You could also add - on this thread of thought - some kind of new electronic warfare thingy that could "blind" those sentries and allow cloaked ships to venture in hostile teritory to scout. I'm thinking at some kind of hack skills.
Oh - and yes - remove the members list from locals altogether and only pop a message for a short time (3-4 seconds maybe depending on length in characters) when it is being sent. Sort of like a radio broadcast. And don't show how many are in there - that is metagaming - how would you know that really ? Make it a player probing scanning skill - like scanning into stations, probe scanning etc -something skill-based and item based.
dunno - just my two cents
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Jet Savage
HEAVEN'S GATE HELLS KITCHEN
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Posted - 2007.08.02 15:02:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Gort Let me add my repeated mantra....
1. Remove local (in some form - either totally or partially) from 0.0, and 2. Remove reinforced mode from POSes.
I support both those concepts, just as I supported warp to zero.
Come on, CCP. You know you want (need) to.
Bring back the days when all I needed was a Rifter and an attitude.
Regards,
Gort
Woot!!! ........................................ SAY HI TO MY PIRANHA DRONES, KISSY KISSY !!
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Jet Savage
HEAVEN'S GATE HELLS KITCHEN
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Posted - 2007.08.02 15:10:00 -
[136]
Edited by: Jet Savage on 02/08/2007 15:14:24
Originally by: Tortun Nahme I want free flight and joystick control, then my mad twitch gaming skilz can be the deciding factor in pvp, as is its not much more interesting than pve
free flight, as an option interface, should be made a standard, with enough players encouraging more affordable and larger patch upgrades, a future added eve attraction to hold onto us...?? Hud control with auto weapon fire in eve...thats the bomb man.
Quote: - Make Sovereignty requirements steeper then just spamming a POS in systems. The number of alliance players in a particular system should create points that indicate sovereignty; meaning, base sovereignty on a population count and system use (mining, ratting, having a physical player presence in a system). There are systems in 0.0 with POSĘs but no actual players spending any time in them. This would force alliances to have players be in actual systems that they are claiming.
Population counts for system ownership, nice idea. How would it be implenented though?
How about tax incentives, the more you hold in system, the less general Alliance tax paid?I'd prefer an eve wide sales tax based on how many jumps an hour. more sales tax relief on busy gate systems. ........................................ SAY HI TO MY PIRANHA DRONES, KISSY KISSY !!
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Awox
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.08.02 16:02:00 -
[137]
Originally by: Kamikaze Loco Edited by: Kamikaze Loco on 01/08/2007 00:17:17 BE & CagedRage are some of the few real PvP'ers left in this game. Listen too what they say!!!
I hear they talk about AAA tower. The tower they refer to is very evil! It's the most evil tower of AAA and probably one of the most evil towers in eve.
CagedRage, you know AAA, you were memeber short time ago. AAA is not your usual alliance in eve, but a pure PVP alliance. Our towers will never be (and has never been) easy to take.
Real PvPers do not get ambushed in their expander-tanked archons hauling haulers full of drone compounds by a 10 man cruiser gang. They certainly don't eject, giving them the carrier. - Security Director Advanced Logistics SPAM: [url=http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=563255]Interdictor tweaks[/url] |
Haas Tabris
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Posted - 2007.08.04 00:05:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Gort Let me add my repeated mantra....
1. Remove local (in some form - either totally or partially) from 0.0, and 2. Remove reinforced mode from POSes.
I support both those concepts, just as I supported warp to zero.
Come on, CCP. You know you want (need) to.
Bring back the days when all I needed was a Rifter and an attitude.
Regards,
Gort
Well said, mate! this thread deserves another bump.
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suger1
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Posted - 2007.08.06 06:18:00 -
[139]
Originally by: Haas Tabris
Originally by: Gort Let me add my repeated mantra....
1. Remove local (in some form - either totally or partially) from 0.0, and 2. Remove reinforced mode from POSes.
I support both those concepts, just as I supported warp to zero.
Come on, CCP. You know you want (need) to.
Bring back the days when all I needed was a Rifter and an attitude.
Regards,
Gort
Well said, mate! this thread deserves another bump.
indeed
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Nyack
GREY COUNCIL Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.08.06 07:15:00 -
[140]
Originally by: Dark Shikari
In the end, most of the best PvPers will either quit or join roaming PvP corporations like INFOD, TOXIN, etc. Alliance warfare sucks, and everyone knows it.
signed
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Del Narveux
Dukes of Hazard
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Posted - 2007.08.06 08:45:00 -
[141]
Ive said it before, the ultimate problem is theres no disadvantage to bringing a crapload of ships due to fights not being very tactical (all a fight really is is some dudes at some distance shooting each other). POSes are definitely a problem, but theyre really more a symptom *of* the problem. If you attack a POS, you need to not only blob to do damage to the shield, but also outblob the defenders because your small gang cant accomplish its 'intermediate goals' if you jump into a fleet of 100 battleships and the insta pwn you. _________________ [SAK] Alumnus--And Proud Of It! -- aka Cpt Bogus Is that my torped sig cloaking your base?
Originally by: Wrangler Well, at least we have forum PvP..
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KenDoll
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Posted - 2007.08.06 09:04:00 -
[142]
a way to discourage blobbing for example would be having proximity related negatives, like two battleships close together would say affect there turret tracking because of engine wake effects or something like that.
proximity damage from explosive effects on torpedo's and missiles should effect those close to the target, this could work in some ways to splitting blobs up and possibly reducing them and at the same time enabling more effective measures (splash damage) against them.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.08.06 09:16:00 -
[143]
Originally by: CagedRage
Of course, blobbing isn't the only problem; POSes just make it too easy to live in 0.0 too. It is easier to live in 0.0 than it is to live in empire. There really isn't much risk, if you aren't too silly of course, especially when you can either move to a POS or to a station as soon as trouble arises. There is not a big enough risk attached to living in 0.0 to justify the rewards that are given.
I think you miss the biggest risk of living in 0.0. Its not you, the ganksquad. You're right, living in 0.0 means only a relatively small risk from the ganksquad. Its a frequent risk, can be annoying, can be aggravating, but it is limited.
However the big risk from living in 0.0 comes from warfare. In Empire your possessions are safe in stations. In 0.0 much less so. Yes, a station protects you from Ganksquads in 0.0, but you can always wake up one day to the sound of dreads pounding your defenses, with bubbles on your station, and being evicted a few days, or weeks later. And with most or at least part of your possessions locked in a station you can never access again unless you bring a 100 man BS fleet and 20 dreads to take the station back. That is the real risk of 0.0, and the driving motivation I think for most people who live there.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.08.06 09:32:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Yazoul Samaiel TBH there should be a huge direction from the dev team to penalise blobs i mean like hammer them down with the nerf bat. The bigger your fleet get you should be getting penalties and not bonuses imo like bigger lock time and smaller lock range etc. Removing local chat is just silly coz its just for lame low sec gankers who want to have more cheesy kills , it has 0 effect on blobs , like srsly ppl dotn know to check the map to see blobs or use scanner?
POS warefare is just boring , and ccp instead of making it less boring it made it more boring , you can now shoot structure outside so other team has to go rep it so on and so forth not to mention stations as well
You can penalize larger fleets, and all people will do is go in separate gangs. And actually, if you want to reduce blobs, what you need is more static elements people need to defend.
Take for example the current big conflict in the south. We have BoB+Allies, living in Delve, Period Basis, Paragon Soul etc, and REDSWARM+Allies living in the east. Both send all their available manpower to 66- where two huge blobs meet to kill each other. Big lag. In the meantime, Frege sends 200 man to the hinterlands of BoB space, which are practically deserted.
On the other side, I flew through RA space last few days to the frontlines, also deserted.
Why are these places deserted? Because there is nothing that really needs defending. Stationservices are one step, but still too little apparently.
If you want to disperse blobs, I don't think you will get there by penalizing big gangs. I think you will get there by penalizing people who don't defend. CCP should look for ways to increase static infrastructure that needs to be defended.
Few ideas: The automated mining POS. A POS you can put up in a belt in a system where you have Sov 2 at least, with say 1m shields, 5m armor. Costs 100m to build and uses very little fuel. It will automatically mine from the belts at a steady rate and be ignored by belt rats. All a person has to do is empty it once every few days and take the minerals to a station. Great asset. But it needs defence or it will get ganked. If you remove for example factories from stations, but make it possible and convenient to build in automated factories that are anchored outside of a POS. You need attractive infrastructure, that really helps PvPers, but that also needs to be defended. It should be low on maintenance, but have relatively poor automated defences. That will force alliances to maintain a certain level of defences.
Of course, this would also mean that you need to nerf certain other aspects. If you promote having infrastructure to defend, it should be difficult for non-space holding alliances to raid you. The lifestyle of a corporation like Outbreak, which is all about attack, and not about defence, would need to be nerfed in order for this model to work, or you would end up with 20 similar corps running around killing everyone without having to worry ever about defence.
Not that I would necessarily advocate these changes, but if CCP were to decide to work hard on preventing blobbing, that is the only feasible route I would see.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Templer Relleg
Endgame. Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.08.06 09:40:00 -
[145]
Ill play as long as either eve or real life allows me. Why?
Because i have said no to big fights. If i see a gang forming, and 60+ man x'es up, im gonna run the EXACT opossite direction of whereever the gang is going.
I think we will over time see an increasinly amount of corps like TOXIN, where it might not as much focus on numbers, but fast warfare.
Thats kinda one of the points, where the nano-nerf was a huge kick in the balls to solo people. I still cry every night, because i curse CCP for nerfing my hurricane.
But people tend to talk about corporations, alliances and all that stuff.
What happend to solo pvp? I can tell you that its still there. Its not about riding expensive, its about riding smart. Seek targets in deep space. If more people just started being less carebearish, and went out solo, like i do plenty, there WOULD be a more solo pvp.
People seem to rather whine about how bad solo-pvp have become, rather than go out and seek solo pvp. Its there, just find it.
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gaaksel
Destructive Influence
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Posted - 2007.08.06 09:43:00 -
[146]
The whole "lets move guns out of the pos" idea was borked from the start.
I really do wonder who was thinking the rev2 changes were reducing the need to blob. Whoever it was i think he/she needs to pick up his glasses and look over his tables again.
Cynojammers + Pos Guns in a defended system forces you to bring at least 100 people to a pos to be able to tank the damage dealt by the pos guns and also have the DPS to actually kill said cyno jammer (and the pos guns), this in itself is a job for an evening, even if you are undisturbed. Add in that 100 people at a pos are easy victims for 30 snipers and a couple of dictor pilots + possibly some manual gun operators you better bring 300+ to do the same operation. That way you can be sure noone can warp in on you without crashing / desynching and it doesnt matter what ship your reinforcements fly , can be a shuttle for the sake of it , even a pod helps the cause.
Heres a couple of suggestions, since i dont see pos guns being moved back into the shields again : Someone posted somewhere on the boards: Sov claiming poses should be placed on planets not on moons to reduce spamming. - I fully support this. Reduce the damage modifier on small / medium Pos guns but boost the tracking/locking times considerably. - Frigates/Cruisers have no place at a pos, they cant reach the tower anyways (most of them), if you have killed all the guns bring your cruisers. In exchange to the support loss at the POS, POS guns should have a reduced Shield / Armor HP so they are more easily incaped/ restored. - You wanted small gangs to have an effect. Well a 16m HP module to kill sure is fun for a small gang. Seperate the stront hangars from the fuel hangars. -There should not be more than 24 hours room for stront in a pos ever. Reinforced Poses should have a malus for shield / armor repairing on modules. -That way you dont just wait till your oponent goes to bed and rep all the guns again with a single osprey. There needs to be a use for dreads on the field again. -I dont know what, maybe allow only dreads to kill towers (as in the tower itself, not the force field). Or allow dreads to harm reinforced towers (make them burn their stront faster). Remove biomass / other remains of pvp from the game. - The game is lagging enough as it is. Why should there be extra objects noone sees that just decrease performance ( and decloak cov ops at times). Simplify killmails. -Noone cares if you are top damage dealer or not , remove that calculation, simply list the people that took part in the kill and who got the killing blow and be done with it. Unnerf supercaps. -I know i am going to get flamed for thatone, however there is only 2 changes that need to be done : The titan/MS needs a mass that makes it very hard to bump by anything short of a capital ship. The titan/MS should not be blocked by biomass / wrecks or other insignificant obstacles (if its not a moon, it should not stop a titan :) ). That is all there needs to be changed to make supercaps viable again in battles.No remote DD no wtfbbq superguns.
With this , there might actually be some fun in 0.0 PVP again and support roaming gangs might show up again.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.08.06 11:15:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Malachon Draco You can penalize larger fleets, and all people will do is go in separate gangs. And actually, if you want to reduce blobs, what you need is more static elements people need to defend.
I agree with your first statement, but not with the last.
Determining who is on one side in a battle and who is on the other is close to impossible, so any kind of crowd control has to be on the Doomsday model, i.e. not caring whether you're one side or the other (and no, bombs aren't it... they're useless...).
However, this game DOESN'T need more structures to shoot (it needs far less in fact). Fun comes from shooting people, not from shooting structures! Whenever there's some kind of structure to shoot, enough people are brought in by the attacker to either: A. Shoot it before a response is possible! B. Outblob the defender!
Neither of which encourages what I term 'Fun', which is ship-vs-ship battle. IMHO, ALL of the static structures should be removed from the sov equation and use of an area (i.e. which alliance/corp rats/mines/fights/lives there) should determine who owns it.... It'll be difficult to implement, but would be way more fun. You should have to BE in an area to claim it!!!
Whoever at CCP thinks that shooting/repping/recharging structures increases the fun factor for the players should be hit with a serious cluestick!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Otellus
IVC Consortium
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Posted - 2007.08.06 12:16:00 -
[148]
Originally by: Kerfira
Originally by: Malachon Draco You can penalize larger fleets, and all people will do is go in separate gangs. And actually, if you want to reduce blobs, what you need is more static elements people need to defend.
I agree with your first statement, but not with the last.
Determining who is on one side in a battle and who is on the other is close to impossible, so any kind of crowd control has to be on the Doomsday model, i.e. not caring whether you're one side or the other (and no, bombs aren't it... they're useless...).
However, this game DOESN'T need more structures to shoot (it needs far less in fact). Fun comes from shooting people, not from shooting structures! Whenever there's some kind of structure to shoot, enough people are brought in by the attacker to either: A. Shoot it before a response is possible! B. Outblob the defender!
Incorrect.
Without going into the politics (this is not CAOD), look at what Frege is doing to BoB. They are shooting station services in smallish gangs. Since there are a lot of targets, the attackers don't bring huge fleets everywhere, they bring just enough to get the job done. If you're looking for a PvPers 'heaven' in an MMO, I think dogfighting 15 man gangs around strategic objectives would be pretty close tbh.
Furthermore, outblobbing would be much more difficult. If all alliances have lots of stuff to defend, Frege could not afford to send 200 pilots out to kill station services 50 jumps away. Unless they live in a very compact area where there are enough people left over to defend. In RL a nation can never send their entire army on an attack vs an opponent, for 2 reasons. Logistics, and the need to defend. If you send everyone to attack, there is noone left to defend.
Some computer games solve it with logistics, the need for farms for example in warcraft to support an X number of troops. Theoretically, it could be possible to add fueltanks I guess to battleships and make them use fuel to move around. Big hassle and probably no fun for anyone.
The other option is forcing people to defend. If Red Alliance had 50 large factories hanging around RA Prime which were producing the BS and capitals to fight, they would need to keep a force around to defend in case of attack. If BoBs wealth depended on 100 mining towers churning out minerals for production, but each vulnerable to a 15 man raven squad, they would need to keep a force back to defend.
Currently, there is no need to defend. Any moon POS has reinforcement timers, which allow the owner to sit halfway across the galaxy and not respond until a day later. If you go for more infrastructure that needs to be defended, one of the options would be to split industrial POS from Sovereignty POS, and disallow industrial POS from having strontium. Then it becomes possible to destroy enemy infrastructure much more effectively. Secondly, the cost of POS should be shifted IMO from low purchase, high maintenance, to high purchase, low maintenance. A large POS costs as much in fuel in 2 months as it costs to buy a new tower. Ideally I would double the cost of buying a POS and its modules and make the cost of maintaining them a quarter of what they are now.
I.e. we need: expensive, destructable infrastructure, that is easy to maintain in terms of logistics, very profitable in terms of revenue, but also quite vulnerable to attack.
The only problem would be roaming gangs/corps/alliances like Outbreak, who have nothing to defend and thus have a serious advantage under such a model. But if the new infrastructure were to be significantly more profitable, that would either force such groups to function at a disadvantage in terms of combat power (less isk to buy ships) or be forced to settle down as well and feel the need for defence.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:28:00 -
[149]
Edited by: Kerfira on 06/08/2007 13:31:34
Originally by: Otellus post...
While there is something to what you say, I think you're missing a few things.
First of all, where is the fun if you're forced to stay at home to defend your infrastructure 23/7 from an attack thats unlikely to come while you're at home? Secondly, if the targets are easy to destroy, you'll need people online 23/7 (something most corp/alliances can't), and if they aren't easy to destroy, we're back to the blob.
The suggestion would do far more to kill 0.0 empires than anything else, simply because because sitting and waiting for an attack that might never come is not fun!!! The people who were out for fun would just abandon their empire ambitions and go on the roam. That'd leave the few who (for some reason) wanted an empire as the target of all these people roaming.....
This is the difference between war in a game and RL. In the game the objective is to have fun, in RL it is to survive and defend what you have.
...and I'm not even mentioning the obvious point again... Where is the fun in shooting inanimate structures?? This is supposed to be a PvP game (for PvE we have missions....)!!!
Oh, and as for people needing 0.0 resources to make ISK/ships... lol... ISK are so easy to come by today that it doesn't mean a thing! Why do you think Malachon could report on BoB/RA space being empty? Because people are making their ISK elsewhere (hint: Empire. I make 300-600m in Jita in a weekend, and I'm not even scamming)!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Saint Luka
Minmatar The Really Awesome Players
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Posted - 2007.08.06 13:54:00 -
[150]
I doubt removing local would affect major alliance warefare at all. People would just make sure to have scouts placed at appropriate gates and warn of fleets coming.
Regarding no refinforced mode, to be honest it'll never be accepted for the pure fact 0.0 would change far too rapidly. You'd see an increase of suicide squads hitting systems of major alliances all over the place without any serious warning.
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Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.08.06 14:01:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 06/08/2007 13:36:25 Edited by: Kerfira on 06/08/2007 13:31:34
Originally by: Otellus post...
While there is something to what you say, I think you're missing a few things.
First of all, where is the fun if you're forced to stay at home to defend your infrastructure 23/7 from an attack thats unlikely to come while you're at home? Secondly, if the targets are easy to destroy, you'll need people online 23/7 (something most corp/alliances can't), and if they aren't easy to destroy, we're back to the blob.
The suggestion would do far more to kill 0.0 empires than anything else, simply because sitting and waiting for an attack that might never come is not fun!!! The people who were out for fun would just abandon their empire ambitions and go on the roam. That'd leave the few who (for some reason) wanted an empire as the target of all these people roaming.....
This is the difference between war in a game and RL. In the game the objective is to have fun, in RL it is to survive and defend what you have.
...and I'm not even mentioning the obvious point again... Where is the fun in shooting inanimate structures?? This is supposed to be a PvP game (for PvE we have missions....)!!!
Oh, and as for people needing 0.0 resources to make ISK/ships... lol... ISK are so easy to come by today that it doesn't mean a thing! Why do you think Malachon could report on BoB/RA space being empty? Because people are making their ISK elsewhere (hint: Empire. I make 300-600m in Jita in a weekend, and I'm not even scamming)!
Oops, only just noticed that my posting char got reset. Otellus is me.
I see your point in terms of 'what is the fun in defending'. I agree the whole dynamics would change. On the one hand, defending would become much more attractive, but so does attacking, as long as there is a defence.
Or in basic terms, you could separate activity in 0.0 into 3 different categories: Defence, Attack, Resource gathering (rat/mine). Defence would be more important than before. Attack would become more rewarding if succesful. And the idea of the expensive, attractive and yet vulnerable infrastructure would be that Resource gathering would become less of a grind. I.e. what if you could replace those 3 hulks and that tank in the belt with a Mining POS in the belt that mines the resources for you in an automated fashion, but you couldn't log it off when hostiles come?
A ganksquad these days has to be fast, and a bit lucky or depend on the stupidity of their opponents (can the hulks warp to the POS before he gets scrambled by the injumping interceptor?). What if there were no hulks, but a tower with 500k HP, mining the belt. The ganksquad comes in and tries to wreck the tower, the people who are around scramble to defend it. Since the tower can't logout, the defenders have no choice but to defend or suffer a loss.
You're right of course about the timezones, but that would mostly mean that alliances would be highly encouraged to bunch up in much tighter areas to maximize defence, also on offhours. I think 0.0 would turn into a large number of smaller, but highly compact alliances, with quite a bit of wasteland between them where small corps and scavengers could survive without permanent infrastructure, but more living out of carriers, and maybe the new Ore capital ships. Attacking neighbours in permanent settled systems with infrastructure would become quite attractive in terms of crippling them (and the industrial POS should also drop nice loot IMO), which would offset the time needed to defend. The only part that would really suffer IMO in terms of player activity needed would be the resource gathering by the territorial alliances, they would switch to more automated resource gathering, trusting on their PvP pilots to defend the vulnerable infrastructure. ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.06 15:40:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Setana Manoro on 06/08/2007 15:43:34
Originally by: Dark Shikari I think for quite a while its been a forgone conclusion that:
1. CCP is consistently and repeatedly making changes to the POS/sovereignty system that encourage and/or require blobbing to occur.
2. The servers cannot handle such blobbing.
Every new change has increased the need for blobs. Examples:
Cyno jammers force enemies to bring massive swarms of small ships instead of capital ships.
Titan nerf, while in many ways justified, eliminates one of the last big blob-busters of the game.
In the end, most of the best PvPers will either quit or join roaming PvP corporations like INFOD, TOXIN, etc. Alliance warfare sucks, and everyone knows it.
Simple ... CCP thinks that EVE can handle a revolving doors policy regarding it's playerbase. Howeber, new players need to be trained, they must gain trust to become pos guys and when they do they will see how much it sucks. As it is right now, CCP pretty much screwed 0.0 with the new sov changes. Probably after a while they will come up with a quick rebalancing when they see that : 1 - there is no more movement in 0.0; no new entities are born, no old entities are killed. 2 - see the negatice critics about what they have done.
PS: I personally hope that the guy who came up wtih the new sov stuff get's canned or at least a big sized boot up his butt. While in the past, the opportunities in 0.0 for isk making outweighed the drawbacks - lag and all that; the sov changes put the final straw for me. Even though isk is much harder to make in high-sec, even if i have to run missions for it - and i have not managed to run more than 20 missions in the row as i get very bored, even if i have to rat in low-sec for isk ... i will never go back to alliance warfare - and this includes big corps such as Outbreak. Wasting 4-5hs a day for a 10 min lag-fest where you can't even see the targets or you have no sense of accomplishment IS NOT FUN !
Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ. |
Khorian
Gallente Excidium.
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Posted - 2007.08.06 15:43:00 -
[153]
Until enough WoW emigrants have settled in to EvE and whined enough for CCP to change EvE into a mindless Instanced Battleground scenario with faction points as rewards for PVP kills and a Faction point shop for epic equipment and mounts.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.08.06 15:44:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Malachon Draco The ganksquad comes in and tries to wreck the tower, the people who are around scramble to defend it. Since the tower can't logout, the defenders have no choice but to defend or suffer a loss.
And this is precisely why the attacker would bring a blob large enough to overcome any defence the defender is able to put up...... The attacker choose the time of attack, the defender has to be ready always. That's all the advantage needed....
I like the theory, but in all honesty I don't think it'll work, simply because sitting for maybe weeks on end having to be ready for an attack (that may not come) will in no way be fun.... If the structures are important, you'll need to keep a large force at home (thus the opposition will ALSO bring a blob, and we're back to square one).. If not important, what's the point....
You saw yourself how during the ASCN war sitting for hours in a POS waiting was the surest way to kill participation. I don't think this'll be much different....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Undercover Palmtree
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Posted - 2007.08.06 16:50:00 -
[155]
Reason PVP sucks and why people blob is pretty simple. You can't really use tactics in this game. Two Dominixes will kill a single Dominix, even when equipped with the same items. Player skill has almost no influence on the outcome. This isn't like world of warcraft where every class has tons of different spells and abilities that they can use in all kinds of different situations to attack, disable, counter attack, block, etc. The entire PVP system needs an upgrade. The whole overlocking / thermal dynamics add on was a step in the right direction but definitely not even remotely close to how much more is required. This game needs more additions that make the outcome of a PVP encounter more dependent on skill rather then ship and pre-configured equipment. PvP would be a lot better if it was more complex and gave the player a lot of tools to use in different situations. Heck.. mining would be a lot better if it was a little more complex then just targeting an roid and turning on the auto-mine button. But atm you just don't feel safe until you have big numbers. You don't feel safe because the outcome of an engagement is almost completely out of your hands. You just turn on the auto-attack and hope your ship(s) are better.
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Razer Morphis
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.08.06 16:50:00 -
[156]
The lag did not get reduced over the last years.
The old bugs did not get fixed. Instead, new ones got implemented. CCP's priority is just new people, who will eventually leave Eve, but in the meantime, have left some money on it.
There is no real aim to "FIX" it. Just to "keep the money coming".
I'm throwing away 32M SP, and 5Bil Isk. *shrug*
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Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.06 16:56:00 -
[157]
Originally by: PimpstA To be perfectly honest, I don't mind fleet battles at all, in fact I quite enjoy them. IF THEY WERE PLAYABLE!
When you wait the 2-7 hrs on a weekend and finally the fleet you have been preparing to fight turns up, you feel the adrenalin rush, lean into the monitor and .... well, wait 5-10 mins for the grid to load then try locking those you do see while in actual fact you are sitting in your cloned self back at some station.
My point. Lag ruins large scale PvP. CCP encourages this kind of game play yet does nothing to allow the mechanics to cope with it. Please stop expanding the game and try to solidify what we already have.
(BTW, I wrote something like this 3 years ago too )
How CCP sees it "we're ok, he can take more BS". :)
Caldari are the plague of EVE, little whiners that must be cleansed from TQ. |
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