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CRUSH3R Rage and Terror Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:10:00 - [31] Originally by: BlackHorizon Edited by: BlackHorizon on 31/07/2007 05:44:56 That starbase's offensive capability can be easily overcome with two or three dreads in siege mode -- no large fleet required. Try it! \o/ BE will fit dreads with cloacks and dampeners too %)
hantwo S.A.S Cruel Intentions	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:18:00 - [32] Originally by: Kulmid Edited by: Kulmid on 31/07/2007 01:24:53 Till I am a. physically b. mentally or c. financially unable to play Also, Can I have your stuff? and how long did it take you to think of this reply? The op put forward a well constructed argument, whether you agree or not the best you could come up with was "can I have you stuff" ItÆs a childish mentality itÆs been done a million times before and it shows what little intellect you must have. Why me eh?
Trak Cranker Serenity Inc	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:49:00 - [33] Edited by: Trak Cranker on 31/07/2007 08:51:14 I can agree with the OP mostly. There are aspects of pvp that has improved (ship selection, tactics) - but the appliance in terms of territorial power play has indeed not helped the game. They need to move sovereignty decision away from static objects and over to actions made. It is already a points game with towers. Why not make enemy kills (ships and POS), NPC kills and mining/cloud mining/exploration made (and whatever else you can think of along those lines) go into a tally that decides sov. Anything that forces ships into space. It would force everyone into action in a system, and move towers back to being logistical tools, for which they are excellent. Think of all the actual ship encounters such a system would provoke. You would not be able to sit in station or behind the POS shield, while the opposition racks up points on the NPCs. On the other hand, ratting the NPCs or mining/exploring to score points, would entice a split of a fleet to maximise point scoring - opening up for a counterattack by the opposition. And it will be as fair as can be, I think, in terms of timezone dominance. And it would force an opposing force to have presence for whatever period points dominance must be had. Please treat this as the rough idea it is. There are prob tons of problems with it. I have on purpose left out any thoughts on any specific points sizes. (But shooting the opposition should ofc be quite a bit better than shooting NPCs.) But I can really see a lot of oldfashioned pew pew come from this.
Miss Mickey	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:56:00 - [34] Edited by: Miss Mickey on 31/07/2007 08:56:48 I would personally like to see something along the lines of a Sov. Module that sits inside pos shields, thus requiring descruction of POS to de-activate. Such a module would have an insanely high CPU need, but would fit very nicely on these nice, new, extra-small POS's which have a special bonus that reduces the CPU need of the Sov. Module. These new POS's would be able to fit some guns, EW and resists, but nothing like the sponge or deathstar POS's of the past. This way a POS could still be a tough nut to ***** when used for a base, research station, refine post etc. But as far as Sov. goes, the task is made much easier. (Though you'd still need to take out any cyno jammers should you want to use capitals)
Haas Tabris	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:57:00 - [35] Some excellent points in this thread. Hope I can add a few more... First, I agree that the devs seem to have deved (or is that devved?) themselves into a corner with the whole POS warfare stuff. It's kinda sad actually, 'cause i think they were actually trying to make the game more fun, more immersive, and add more content. But its really just messing up the pvp side of 0.0 because the servers just can't handle the massive fleets. they just can't. So the solution would appear to de-fleet the game a bit. Why do fleets form? Well, I contend it's because local allows us to get an accurate hostile count in any system we can drop an alt. So, have enough alts, or enough player scouts, and you can get a pretty good idea of who has what forces where. And if any enemy starts forming up, well, it's real easy to try to form up your own fleet to stop them. Hence the big fleets. Also, if a small gang starts pushing into your territory, well, your scouts 6 or 8 jumps out will pick them up easy. Local pops. "oh hey, we've got 20 hostiles inbound from ABC, rally point is the RST gate in XYZ system. Get there now!" Ok, so you round up a fleet of 30-40, but then the hostile fleet has their scout 2 or 3 jumps ahead who eventually reports back "oh hey, FC, they've got 50 pilots in local" and the FC turns the fleet around or waits for reinforcements. What would be so wrong to let the the 20 man gang in without such an early warning system? Why not make scouts have to pay attention? Why not introduce the element of surprise back into the game? As in "hey, FC, we just popped a scout on the XYZ gate, might be more of them coming, but we don't know, we're gonna send out a few guys to take a look..." I'm not saying remove local. Just make it work like alliance chat. You say "boo" and your little face pops up. Otherwise nobody knows you're there... Second, POS warfare needs some help. I think the problem here lies in the reinforcement timers AND the fact you can't capture an enemy POS AND the way sovereignty works. Suggested fixes: 1 - Remove sovereignty from the game. It just sucks. Let us attack and defend stations and outposts directly. Let us anchor guns outside our stations and outposts. Why make us do the POS dance? When all we're doing is spamming POS's JUST TO GET ACCESS TO THE GODDAMN STATIONS??? think it through guys, stop reading right now and think that through. Still want to brag about pretty little dots on the map? Fine. Capture the station or outpost and you control the system. And get the pretty little dot. No station? Go capture a few hostile POS's, or spam a few of your own. Fine, done. 2 - Eliminate reinforcement mode and timers. Massive fleet warps in and attacks a POS or station, ok, they capture it. You and your friends have to go get it back. No more stront, no more timers, no more massive cap fleet buildups all timed for when the station comes out of reinforced. Wanna park a bunch of expensive stuff out there? Ok, better go get your POS back before they loot it. This means we might actually need some station defenses worth a damn. Hmmm.... Might also mean CAP ships need a nerfbat (gasp!). Or maybe it means we need a light cap ship class (something between a battleship and a dread that could fight either one at half the cost). I contend the jump from 200 mil for a kitted bs to 2 bil isk for a kitted dread is just too big a gap and makes the game unwieldy and a bit off balance. Hmmm... Game balancing FTW? That's about it. Nerf local, drop sov, drop reinforced mode, let us capture enemy POS's directly, fix the station defense vs. dread snafu and/or give us a light cap ship class and we should be good to go. Piece of cake, right? Thanks for reading. ;-)
Ryas Nia Minmatar Fimbulwinter Pharmaceuticals Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.07.31 08:59:00 - [36] Originally by: Geshwin its amusing that these people start to whine about pos warfare who fit cloaks on ravens, have their whole gank gang cloaked sitting on a gate + cloaked dictor + massive dampers or jammers, nothin else, and just decloak when they know there is an easy gank incoming and now u come here and deserve credit for it? sry no sir When you have no valid argument the best defense is to attack the other person, not their position, thank you for that. Recruiting Terrorists
Ryas Nia Minmatar Fimbulwinter Pharmaceuticals Fimbulwinter	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:03:00 - [37] Originally by: Deep Throat 5.PROBING being set back to a playerskill driven occupation like it once was -accompanied with the nerf of the cloaking devices on all ships thing, this would remove the need to cloak since probing would be back to what its supposed to be, a skill from a player, not a push of a button. O god yes please... there was a time when this game required player skill and this was one of the things that made it clear who the winners and losers were going to be. The new system is just a time sink a monkey could do. Recruiting Terrorists
Isonda Gallente	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:32:00 - [38] I like Sov. I like that POS's take days to destroy as there are much hard work behind a life in 0.0 I don't want systemes to be ganked. I don't want the ping-pong of the past back And CagedRage, PvP? Don't you mean one sided PVP? Most of Burn Edens victims in Feyth where inocent traders and carebears. If you want PVP, pure and raw, go attack outbreak. To be quite honest, I do like the aspect that you loose stuff permanently here in this game, but, people should have a chance to defend it. The idea of PvP by most in this game are ganking people. Bubble, jam, dampen, web and blow up... preferably a shuttle with a T2 BPO in it. That have nothing to do with PVP. Just NPC'n with a lower spawnrate. CCP should have dropped the sov system into EVE when they said they planned to, 12-18 months ago. Then CYVOK's and D2's dream of a 0.0 empire whould have been here long ago. And they was the ONLY one to ever want to build a 0.0 empire. in my view.. this game are getting VERY well balanced now. And if Burn Eden goes away, then the game will loose a player. Then again.. Burn Eden ain't what it used to be. You guys hired more people, didn't ya?
QuantumX Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.07.31 09:35:00 - [39] Removing local / making local show you if you speak is a must to keep pvp alive in 0.0, its something is needed to stop the blob tactic. 0.0 needs to be more dangerous. Alot of alliance space in 0.0 is safer then Jita, is that how its suppose to be. Sov is a great idea but once up its a nut too tough to *** unless you blob hundreds of pilots especially if you can use Capitals due to jammers. An alliances capital should be the only tough nut to ***, and nothing else. a well cor-ordinated force should be able to take any system for any alliance if they are not willing to defend it, and by defend i mean putting ships in space, and not putting up 1000 POS Deathstars and having 50 players hold off 500. SOV should be held to one constellation per alliance for any level 3 or above, this makes you prime constellation means something, the constellations surrounding you should act as a small buffer and not a POS Deathstar blob. Hopefully CCP will see the damage they are doing the 0.0 and fix it soon.
Kozak Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:14:00 - [40] I don't understand something. Your whole gang structure only lands itself to ganking. Some of us like all out slugfests, not camping choke points to gank a lone ship. BE has never taken posses on, why are you complaining again? Cause you can't kill a POS with a 8 man gang? When could you kill a pos with anything other then 40 BS? Your whine has no merit, BE has never ran gangs strong enough to kill any kind of POS and if you want to camp a choke point, POS warfare has nothing to do with you. If you want fight like most of us do, start roaming instead of camping.
Daimos Bellurdan Black Reign FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:14:00 - [41] Edited by: Daimos Bellurdan on 31/07/2007 10:14:58 I agree with the op and deep throat. The game is definately going down the wrong lane. The funny thing is: I have seen it happen with nearly every mmo out there. Its just the mmo developer trying to get more people to play the game. Most game updates just change the game or add something to make the game more appealing to the masses and leaving minorities behind (in this case the older eve player base). I do not know where I read it but a dev of another mmo once said that most mmo players do not have actual skill (as in aiming, speed, tactical knowledge, etc). If you want to have more players in your game you have to reduce the skill based factors and make it possible that even the most unskilled player can play the game and win (absolute security, invested time = your success). Pos's (pos spamming, reinforced, lots of guns and hp), undestructable outposts, more ship hp, cloaking, local, sovereignity is used for one thing: To minimize the players risk in the game with a high predictability and asset security. The actual ability of a player is reduced as much as possible. Nowadays most ships only use one sort of setup. No variety at all. If the strength of a player does not count and everything is predictable there is only one way to overpower your enemy: with numbers. I mostly agree with Deep Throats argumentation. In short I think this is needed: - Player skill has to become a factor! A good player should win in the same ship against two bad players. Numbers should not count. - Reduce the predictability (no local etc) and create more ways of fighting (strategy/tactics). - More variety with ship setups. When I fight an enemy my first job should be to find out what setup and tactic they are using, not just count the ships. - Weapons that work against blobs but not against small gangs. - Pos's and OUTPOSTs should be destroyable with less than 50 players. Main problem: This would drive a lot of people out of 0.0 and out of the game. CCP is a company with the main goal of making money. I do not care if I play with 10k, 20k or 100k players but I think ccp would not agree.
Radamathadus	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:21:00 - [42] Sadley over the last few months a good number of pvping friends, mostly veteran multiple account holders have quit over the way pvp has changed. Mostly they were fed up of the way that solo and small gang work was being replaced by blobs. Consenus when talking about why they were leaving was that EVE had gotten to small again. The advent of warp to zero had had minimal impact on the gate camps it was meant to beat but had a fundamental impact on the forming of blobs as over all travel time was cut so dramatically. Maybe warp speeds should have been reduced when warp to zero was introduced. But they should definitly be looked at being reduced now. The downside is that traveling is a mindnumbing experience and a time sink which nobody enjoys at the best of time. But the game post the removal of the superhighways felt bigger and not all roads led to Yulai/Jita. In regard to pos's the simple fix is to remove all ice from high sec. With out this "safe" and often dubiously sourced ice there would be far fewer pos's out there and those in place would have far higher stratigic importance.
Kozak Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:23:00 - [43] To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. We've been jumping small gangs into blobs all the time. It's great fun and you should try it.
yourmate nate	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:24:00 - [44] lo /signed 0.0 is no risk today, its too easy. the only 'risk' about 0.0 is jumping into a bottleneck while 99% of the rest of the plase is a walk in the park. PVP used to be super cool back in exodus, today its boring as hell. Remember how sweet it was to take a station without spamming multiple posses all over the galaxy? It was better to take a station with a battleship blob rather than posses and capital ships. CCP, please do some soul searching. What may have looked super sweet on the drawingboard in 2003 may not be so sweet in reality. Kind regards yourmate nate
yourmate nate	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:27:00 - [45] Originally by: Kozak Cause you can't kill a POS with a 8 man gang? When could you kill a pos with anything other then 40 BS? lo You can no problem kill a poss with 20 bs's...at least back in the day. Dont know how it is today as I stay as far away from ***pos as possible. Kind regards yourmate nate
yourmate nate	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Kozak To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. . lo How do you adapt to a system thats broken? Remember the fleet battles in the past with little lag, and the ones today where you get killmail before the grid loads? kind regards yourmate nate
CagedRage BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:38:00 - [47] Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 10:44:19 Oh, True Sebiestor, I expected a better reply from someone like you. The fact that this is coming from a BURN EDEN member isn't really relevant. Tactics we use are actually exactly like Kagura said: Originally by: Kagura Nikon theoretically there could be reasons to not want to outnumber. Military theory says you have mainly 3 ways to fight and win when on same tecnological level: 1-Being unreachable in battle, be it by range, speed or Ewar (we can do all those in game). 2-Be stealthy and only reveal yourself at moment you can take fast and decisive action(impossible due to local), theoretically this work best with SMALL groups and cover guerilha tactics as well. 3- Overpower your enemy (blob) so you can decimate its forces so fast that he cannot react. So the only way to make blbob worth less is allowing the secodn combat way. Remove local and introduce stealthy precise attacks mecanics. You could start by reading this: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm It might help you to understand BURN EDEN. Think harder about tactics we use, and actually come up with a way to beat them. You have enough good PvPers in your corp to do it. The biggest problem anyone has, trying to take BURN EDEN out is that you bring stupidly large numbers to do it. What do you expect us to do? If you want a chance, you will need to bring an equal squad (but one with better skills of course). Until then, try to at least put some intelligence into your posts. Thanks. Originally by: Kozak To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. We've been jumping small gangs into blobs all the time. It's great fun and you should try it. I know exactly how COL PvP works Kozak... It can be fun. But it's funny that you should say that, because so often complained about other corps and alliances blobbing the small COL raid gangs... Anyway, it would be nice to get this on topic again...
Sarchez Minmatar Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:43:00 - [48] Originally by: Ryas Nia Fix boring sovereignty/pos, and make standings actually mean something. Agreed (as I'm sure you know) ;) but you still have the option of making them mean something to YOU
Minigarch	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:47:00 - [49] Edited by: Minigarch on 31/07/2007 10:49:24 The problem is not with overpowered defensive modules but, in contrary, with overpowered offensive and underpowered defensive. There's less and less solo and small gang action with each nerf to any defensive module, such as stabs, cloaks etc. Nobody wants to die, people just adapt. There will be nothing but blobs or convoys with extensive cloaked scout support if the local chat is nerfed. Want more small gang and solo action? Unnerf stabs, nerf dictors and bubbles, nerf hp of ships back to pre-buff time, maybe nerf recons a bit as well, and there will be plenty of targets again.
CagedRage BURN EDEN Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.07.31 10:47:00 - [50] Originally by: Kozak To me it just sounds you guys can't adapt. We've been jumping small gangs into blobs all the time. It's great fun and you should try it. I know what COL PvP is like Kozak... Come on. It's funny that you should say this though... Almost every gang I flew with would have people complaining about the opposing gangs that would bring 2,3 or 4 times our numbers.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.07.31 11:07:00 - [51] Gotta agree, mashing 6+ deathstar POS's hardly makes the game fun, just time consuming.... Just have 1 POS dictate each systems sovereignty, placed at the sun in each system. Limit this POS to the one that can house the anti cyno generator and also let it have a module that tells its alliance members who is in local. POS's at moons within the soverign holders get hp's like they do now, while those without get a big hp/resist nerf, making it easy to remove 'rogue' towers once you have claimed soverignty, whilst making it hard to remove soverign holders pos's until you take the system. Remove local from 0.0 (read:opt in local)
Kozak Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 12:28:00 - [52] You guys are forgetting something. Since Beta the devs have been saying that 0.0 is for alliance warfare. They had mock battles in beta, trying to get 100 vs. 100 to happen. They envisioned 0.0 as empire, but with alliances at the helm. Small pirate gangs have their role in low sec and if they choose can enter deeper into 0.0. We always take 10 man gangs into systems that show 50 on map, we usually get 20 to engage and we love it. We sometimes loose ships but are always having fun. This complaint sounds more of a complaint on ganks without risk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You gotta risk your ships sometimes. If you can't accept that there is a 30% chance for an awesome battle and a 70% chance most of you will die, then don't venture into 0.0. Stay in Low Sec or choke points cloaked.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:01:00 - [53] Originally by: Kozak You guys are forgetting something. Since Beta the devs have been saying that 0.0 is for alliance warfare. They had mock battles in beta, trying to get 100 vs. 100 to happen. They envisioned 0.0 as empire, but with alliances at the helm. Small pirate gangs have their role in low sec and if they choose can enter deeper into 0.0. We always take 10 man gangs into systems that show 50 on map, we usually get 20 to engage and we love it. We sometimes loose ships but are always having fun. This complaint sounds more of a complaint on ganks without risk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You gotta risk your ships sometimes. If you can't accept that there is a 30% chance for an awesome battle and a 70% chance most of you will die, then don't venture into 0.0. Stay in Low Sec or choke points cloaked. You dont get it do you? As someone mentioned earlier what loks good on the drawing board may not work when they implement it. If you think the current state is fine or good then you are a fool. Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.
Kozak Caldari The Collective Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:10:00 - [54] Edited by: Kozak on 31/07/2007 13:11:19 Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Kozak You guys are forgetting something. Since Beta the devs have been saying that 0.0 is for alliance warfare. They had mock battles in beta, trying to get 100 vs. 100 to happen. They envisioned 0.0 as empire, but with alliances at the helm. Small pirate gangs have their role in low sec and if they choose can enter deeper into 0.0. We always take 10 man gangs into systems that show 50 on map, we usually get 20 to engage and we love it. We sometimes loose ships but are always having fun. This complaint sounds more of a complaint on ganks without risk. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You gotta risk your ships sometimes. If you can't accept that there is a 30% chance for an awesome battle and a 70% chance most of you will die, then don't venture into 0.0. Stay in Low Sec or choke points cloaked. You dont get it do you? As someone mentioned earlier what loks good on the drawing board may not work when they implement it. If you think the current state is fine or good then you are a fool. Really? So I'm a fool for going out and gettin great fight almost daily since Rev II? I'm a fool cause we're able to adapt and have fun while you just sit in station spinning your ship? Who's the real fool here?
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:27:00 - [55] Originally by: Kozak Really? So I'm a fool for going out and gettin great fight almost daily since Rev II? I'm a fool cause we're able to adapt and have fun while you just sit in station spinning your ship? Who's the real fool here? You dont understand the point of this 'whine' Originally by: myself The Amarr templar joke is a joke stupid people can laugh at. Its the joke any dumb person can laugh at.
Heikki Gallente Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.07.31 13:27:00 - [56] Originally by: CagedRage It used to be fun, I'm sure it was .. Or is it not just me? It really might be you who changed: already had the experiences, and looking for more than the game can offer. I still think the 'old' style small scale PVP is out there; CCP is just adding other options. You don't need to attack single POS if you don't want to, you don't have to own any territory. IMHO CCP has good vision about Empire building: combining both logistical and warfare challenges. Personally I want to stay away from that, and fight in small teams, but I fully support offering such options for others. -Lasse who regardless hopes CCP would discourage blobbing..
Herculite Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:02:00 - [57] I'm not sure I understand what the argument is here. It seems people are confusing a hate of BE's playstyle with a legitimate complaint on the direction CCP is taking EvE. Anyone can still fly around in a small group and gank people not paying enough attention, but to accomplish anything major game wise, its requiring more and more of a blob and CCP seems to be facilitating that. I'm personally getting a bit disheartened as skill becomes less and less of a factor and CCP seems to be listening to the loudest whines like a typical MMO. What made me love EvE over most MMO's was that the devs seemed immune to the whines, but as EvE gets bigger its falling into the same pattern. I hope this is just a little burp, and things resume a more logical path in the near future. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie
Balthasar Moreq	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:21:00 - [58] Originally by: Deep Throat stuff Signed.
Grox	Posted - 2007.07.31 14:27:00 - [59] after 4 years of eve.<pvp> the one thing ive found out .there is more going on in this game than any of us know about.somewhere someplace in eve u can find exactly what u want.if you are tired of to much allioance warfare then mount up and travel.go to some place 50 or 150 jumps away from where u are at and the universe will be totally different.so mount up, load up ,ammo up and go find it.
Coltaine ShadowStrider Minmatar Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.07.31 15:04:00 - [60] You just dont get it. Some of us dont want only 1vs1(and if you can find that in eve.. well good luck! or 5vs5(same as before). Some of us pay to have Fleet fights. Big fights. But fights you can actually .. you know.. play. CCP is advertizing a game but forgets to mention a. you cant have sound. b. you cant have effects c. you CANT have fleet fights(since in big fights the what? 10% only loads). Put that in your promo please If i had the video skills i would make a video to show what actually happens in massive pvp in eve (the 10 mins jumping.. the empty space for another 30 mins etc, ). Again anyone who things the game isnt busted plays a diffrent game. YOU cant deliver in fleet fights? FINE remove the concept of player controlled territories. Erase 0.0 of the map and promote the game of missions, mining and general npc grinding. Not that i dont like eve. Its by far the best MMO i have played in concept. By FAR. It just at the time for whatever reason (hardware,software,design whatever) cannot exist in the form they hoped it would be. And seriously i understand a bit of lag but i was complaining when i laged in UO for some secs we are talking about 30+ mins here. Thats not lag thats broken. Endure. In enduring, grow strong.

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