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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Dec V
Minmatar
Winds of Dawn
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:45:00 -
[61]
I agree with OP. PVP should be skillfull, not just who has a bigger fleet. I like the ideas of more stealthy attacks, ambushes, a bit of excitement which you rarely get.
Oh and btw, stop giving the OP crap because he is in BE. He could of been in an alliance that took down loads of pos's, he obviously knows a lot about pos warfare...no matter what corp he is in. (And btw....BE are a bloody good pvp corp).
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Mhaerdirne Solveig
Minmatar
Discordian Research
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:51:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Mhaerdirne Solveig on 31/07/2007 15:51:44
 Originally by: CagedRage
You could start by reading this: http://www.sirlin.net/Features/feature_PlayToWinPart1.htm
that's a decent article but why the fornication is that part about neville chamberlain in there? that's dumb as a box of mentally challenged hammers
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Fiodore Nevesky
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Posted - 2007.07.31 15:53:00 -
[63]
This game can not handle blobs , the technology for servers to handle 1 k ppl in system just doenst exist and CCP knows that and the trend was to eliminate blobs by forcing them to cluster and encourage minor fleet sizes . Super caps and titans were supposed to be the solution to that as it was explianed many times by the devs now due to many whining by blobbers ccp had to nerf it and introduce a ******** substitute which is bombs which aint even worth bothering with , hell even defender missiles have more use. So all in all we are back to square one where loads of ppl just clog a system up till nodes keep crashing all over eve .
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Szprinkoth Sponsz
Invicta.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:00:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Or'Chan
what we have here, is a chess piece that's incapable of seeing the board.
Chess just isn't as fun when you're a piece instead of a player.
Do the canary spin! |
Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:27:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Szprinkoth Sponsz
Originally by: Or'Chan
what we have here, is a chess piece that's incapable of seeing the board.
Chess just isn't as fun when you're a piece instead of a player.
I kindly disagree, i find most entretaining be a foot soldier ina huge strategy game.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
PimpstA
FireStar Inc
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:39:00 -
[66]
To be perfectly honest, I don't mind fleet battles at all, in fact I quite enjoy them. IF THEY WERE PLAYABLE!
When you wait the 2-7 hrs on a weekend and finally the fleet you have been preparing to fight turns up, you feel the adrenalin rush, lean into the monitor and .... well, wait 5-10 mins for the grid to load then try locking those you do see while in actual fact you are sitting in your cloned self back at some station.
My point. Lag ruins large scale PvP. CCP encourages this kind of game play yet does nothing to allow the mechanics to cope with it. Please stop expanding the game and try to solidify what we already have.
(BTW, I wrote something like this 3 years ago too  )
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:41:00 -
[67]
Originally by: PimpstA
To be perfectly honest, I don't mind fleet battles at all, in fact I quite enjoy them. IF THEY WERE PLAYABLE!
When you wait the 2-7 hrs on a weekend and finally the fleet you have been preparing to fight turns up, you feel the adrenalin rush, lean into the monitor and .... well, wait 5-10 mins for the grid to load then try locking those you do see while in actual fact you are sitting in your cloned self back at some station.
My point. Lag ruins large scale PvP. CCP encourages this kind of game play yet does nothing to allow the mechanics to cope with it. Please stop expanding the game and try to solidify what we already have.
(BTW, I wrote something like this 3 years ago too )
exaclty.
The solution is making fleet battles be ona more reasonable scale, like 50vs 50 or 80vs80 at most.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Domoso
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Posted - 2007.07.31 16:42:00 -
[68]
I've been reading the forums the past few days. I'm new and trying to get my bearings with this game.
This thread is quite interesting in that it is shedding light on topics that so far are beyond my experience.
Suggestion: Perhaps limiting communications to systems or regions would help with the blobbing. Or perhaps slow down communications between systems and regions. The further out the people are you're trying to contact the longer the messages take to reach them. This would in effect make the gathering of such numbers of players prohibitively time consuming. Seems a simple solution to a complex problem. Granted folks could use an IM out of game but, how many of those people are going to take the time to input the numbers of players into their instant messengers they'll require to get a blob going? Not to mention the difficulties involved in coordinating those numbers of players across different IM networks. It wouldn't be impossible, but it would prohibitive.
Just the thoughts of a noob.
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:02:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Coltaine ShadowStrider
You just dont get it. Some of...[shortened quote]...lag thats broken.
I've had a few fleet fights that haven't been too laggy, the 50v50 or so ones that are lots of fun. But not in the last year or more though.
Originally by: Herculite
I'm not sure I understand what the argument is here.
It seems people are confusing a hate of BE's playstyle with a legitimate complaint on the direction CCP is taking EvE.
Anyone can still fly around in a small group and gank people not paying enough attention, but to accomplish anything major game wise, its requiring more and more of a blob and CCP seems to be facilitating that.
I'm personally getting a bit disheartened as skill becomes less and less of a factor and CCP seems to be listening to the loudest whines like a typical MMO. What made me love EvE over most MMO's was that the devs seemed immune to the whines, but as EvE gets bigger its falling into the same pattern.
I hope this is just a little burp, and things resume a more logical path in the near future.
Thanks. I did think some people would give me a tough time because of the corp name. I'm glad that the majority of people are thinking through this properly before replying. The thread's aim was not to do with tactics. I realise there is still fun to be had in EVE, or I would have left already. People do agree that it could be better PvP though.
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Originally by: PimpstA
To be perfectly honest, I don't mind fleet battles at all, in fact I quite enjoy them. IF THEY WERE PLAYABLE!
When you wait the 2-7 hrs on a weekend and finally the fleet you have been preparing to fight turns up, you feel the adrenalin rush, lean into the monitor and .... well, wait 5-10 mins for the grid to load then try locking those you do see while in actual fact you are sitting in your cloned self back at some station.
My point. Lag ruins large scale PvP. CCP encourages this kind of game play yet does nothing to allow the mechanics to cope with it. Please stop expanding the game and try to solidify what we already have.
(BTW, I wrote something like this 3 years ago too )
exaclty.
The solution is making fleet battles be ona more reasonable scale, like 50vs 50 or 80vs80 at most.
Yeah, I think my favourite fight ever was 10vs10, and lasted 12 minutes or so. Both sides shared the same love of fighting and it was awesome.
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Cmdr Sy
Appetite 4 Destruction
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:05:00 -
[70]
POS is an opt-in game.
Alliances are an opt-in game.
I can find PVP without any of it. I have opted out. Everyone else can do whatever.
Logoffs
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:16:00 -
[71]
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 17:18:43
Problem:
CCP can't fix the lag by upgrading it's servers. It's not possible. Lag compared to number of players on a node is exponential. With 10 people in a fight, all the information about every pilot's actions has to be sent to all 10 other players. 10 packets of information sent to 10 people, 100 packets. With 100 people in a fight, 100 packets of information has to be sent to 100 people. 100 packets of information sent to 100 people, 10,000(!) packets. There is a limit to the technology and even if it was upgraded, it would make very little difference at high player counts.
This is why CCP said they wanted to counter the blob. However, it has gone wrong. Other things that were added have increased the need to bring larger and larger blobs to get things done.
So, what can CCP do? Well the two best suggestions given in this thread so far were:
1 - Remove the list of players in local in low sec/0.0.
2 - Remove reinforced mode on POSes.
So far, no one has given a reason as to why either of these two (very easy to implement) changes, would hurt the game. Not even the people arguing that PvP is so perfect for them already have explained why these changes would be bad.
ps. Cmdr Sy: Then this thread is not for you, please read the title next time.
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Sith8
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:21:00 -
[72]
Well .. people try and play this game the best they can without being blown up..
So Caged you shouldn¦t be surprised that ppl tend to bring large numbers against your cloaked damp Ravens..
Yes the Blob warfare is pretty much as Deep Throat described it, fact is that noone likes to loose and most will do whatever it takes to avoid losses,
wether it is to log off, warp to POS or hang out cloaked on SS... it¦s all the same.
So CR are you a lil ticked off that your targets can warp to POS and be safe?.... tell you a lil sekrit, we hate it when you guys warp to safe and cloak.
-----------------------
BE is the Chinese ISK farmer equivelent of PvP..
Yeah, That IS my Sig.
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Artthana
Minmatar
Acme Technologies Incorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:25:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Artthana on 31/07/2007 17:34:49
Edited by: Artthana on 31/07/2007 17:28:44
CagedRage I tend to agree with options 1 and 2. But most ideas look great at first glance (and even after further review û ie CCPÆ s latest changes).
So lets brainstorm and figure out the reasons against your two options
Against 1
-makes it very very scare for new people to venture into 0.0 don't when a badie jumps in
-makes hunting (solo or gang) in 0.0 incredibly boring (could spend hours looking for people)and then finding friendly players
Against 2
-leads to POSÆs flipping back and forth very fast (not sure if this is good or bad)
More?
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:32:00 -
[74]
I think people in pvp in this game tend to get in ruts. They dont think about new tactics or new ideas or new strategies, they simply try to come with massive firepower as the answer for all. Agony has been a very effective PVP organization since day one and we do things entirely different. The irony is that there never was a need to nerf the blob. The whole "nerf the blob" thing is an artificial construct created by people who cant THINK of new tactics.
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Artthana
Minmatar
Acme Technologies Incorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:34:00 -
[75]
How about instead of killing local you change it a bit.
1. Each ship has a transponder (which puts you in local). Your TP is ether active or passive.
2. You are counted in local space in either state
3. In active you appear in local as normal.
4. Your TP has to be active to operate gates and stations
5. It takes a certain amount of time to switch from passive to active modes. (Maybe you can hacl the gate to allow passive jumps)
6. Make it possible (hack?) to access gate logs to see who has jumpped and when
This is not fleshed out yet.
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CagedRage
BURN EDEN
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:35:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Artthana
CagedRage I tend to agree with options 1 and 2. But most ideas look great at first glance (and even after further review û ie CCPÆ s latest changes).
So lets brainstorm and figure out the reasons against your two options
Against 1
-makes it very very scare for new people to venture into 0.0
-makes hunting (solo or gang) in 0.0 incredibly boring (could spend hours looking for people)
-could (not 100% about this one) force people to go after system with some sort of infrastructure to attack
-
Against 2
-leads to POSÆs flipping back and forth very fast (not sure if this is good or bad)
More?
Finding places to hunt wouldn't be any harder, you could still use the map to see the delayed player count in systems to find places to attack. One of the problems that option 1 also helps is that 0.0 space is too safe. The risk in being in 0.0 space is far too low to justify the rewards that people get for being out there. People would need to rely on scanning and probing more of course. People would actually need to work to protect their space before corp/alliance mates could rat/mine/plex/etc. A lot of people have agreed that 0.0 is very safe. Only because CONCORD has been boosted recently will I actually say that 0.0 is perhaps not safer than empire any more.
I agree that option 2 would be a bigger change. So many people say, "POS warfare is boring", though so if POSes could be taken down without having to wait days before you can finish them off (and then needing hundreds of pilots). This is harder to put in because of the balancing that would need to come with it.
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Artthana
Minmatar
Acme Technologies Incorporated
Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2007.07.31 17:39:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Rells
I think people in pvp in this game tend to get in ruts. They dont think about new tactics or new ideas or new strategies, they simply try to come with massive firepower as the answer for all. Agony has been a very effective PVP organization since day one and we do things entirely different. The irony is that there never was a need to nerf the blob. The whole "nerf the blob" thing is an artificial construct created by people who cant THINK of new tactics.
Everything you said is true, agony's tactics (small frig EW) are fun. There are two problem though.
1. Lag is killing large scale PVP.
2. CCP keeps adding things to the game which promote large scale PVP.
Is all PVP broken? No.
But the large scale battles are.
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Nimrias
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Posted - 2007.07.31 18:12:00 -
[78]
To OP: This thread has some great points. Thanks.
This problem is one of fundamental game mechanics. For the most part, individual pilot skill and SP has little to do with the outcome of most engagements. The main deciding factor is who has greater numbers. Sure you can win against odds if you have bigger ships or faster ships, but for 90%, it's all about numbers. I don't even bother hunting without at least one wingman.
There is no stabilizing mechanism (drawback) to prevent blobbing, so why not do it? More numbers = more favorable odds of a positive outcome in combat.
I agree with whoever said easy intel is a big part of the blob prob. Impervious cloaked ships, docked alts, and local make finding targets easy. How is it that your 10 BS gatecamp is always busted up by a numerically superior force of BS's? They have intel on you, and there's notthing you can do about it.
Just one man's opinion. Good luck in making PvP more fun than a gank here, and a gatecamp there. Good thread!
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Domoso
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Posted - 2007.07.31 18:21:00 -
[79]
Another post from this noob cuz I'm at work and I'm bored as hell.
The problems with all video games are 1) lack of knowledge in the player base of military strategy and tactics, 2) lack of knowledge in the developer base of military strategy and tactics, 3) lack of dynamics in a game. So, in the end it all boils down to force of numbers, pure and simple. I've never played a single game where tactics and strategy mean a hill of beans in the face of brute force. Many games have tried, none have accomplished it. Or maybe they did and so many people screamed it was unfair that the developers changed things to break it up. Well, life isn't fair. Why should games that strive to provide real time/life dynamics be any different. And in making it 'fair' the game developers are unfair to those that want the status quo.
In real life we fought between each other, then in bands, then tribes, then factions, then states and now nations. The progression in real life is the consolidation of power.
Since the servers obviously cannot handle this progression perhaps CCP would be wise in providing us more methods of fighting, obtaining power, stealing it from others, creating it ourselves rather than providing for larger scales of the few routes to wealth and power that we have available to us. Unfortunately, I doubt the game as designed and written is capable of giving us anything but more of the same.
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hantwo
S.A.S
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.07.31 19:25:00 -
[80]
Edited by: hantwo on 31/07/2007 19:26:56
Edited by: hantwo on 31/07/2007 19:25:52
Originally by: CagedRage
Edited by: CagedRage on 31/07/2007 17:25:33
So, what can CCP do? Well the two best suggestions given in this thread so far were:
1 - Remove the list of players in local in low sec/0.0.
2 - Remove reinforced mode on POSes.
Two very good suggestions but unfortunatly CCP went with Bombs and sov and hey they are really working right
Why me eh? |
Praesus Lecti
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:31:00 -
[81]
A fundamental rewrite of how stations function could go a long way to alleviating the problems we currently see with large scale battles.
As it sits right now, a POS and all it's associated bits and baubles all exist at one location. Therefore, to remove the station, the attacker must bring their fleet to that location. What I envision would be to make a single functional POS take up multiple locations. Allow me to explain:
You place a station at a planet (one station per system). By itself, it's a dead hulk. No power, nothing. First thing you need is power. You place Solar Collectors (different numbers based upon the size of the station) anywhere in the system. Now your station has power. Now it needs minerals for production. You place mining outposts at various belts and moons. At a given interval (differing based upon the minerals harvested) NPC controlled convoy ships appear at the outpost, and proceed to the Station. Your tower now has power and minerals. It now needs facilities. Those can be placed at the main Station as can a shield and other defensive weapons. Each mining outpost and solar collector can also have guns, but not on the scale of the main station.
So, in a system with 5 planets, 5 moons and 5 belts. You have 1 central station, 5 moon mining outposts and 5 belt mining outposts and say 5 solar collectors. Conquering a station would require a concerted attack on all the elements simultaneously. Taking out the Solar Collectors would cut the power, reducing the shields to minimal status. The station would then begin consuming the onboard minerals to power the guns and other defensive systems. As the supply on board is limited, you intercept and destroy the NPC caravans and eliminate the mining outposts. The station is now, basically, doomed unless a defending fleet can intercept. But that's not all.
You can't actually destroy anything once they are placed. What happens is everything goes off-line. The station is now devoid of defenses and a player with the correct skills (hacking or ewar) docks at the station and re-codes the system. The station now belongs to the attacking force. The station is still defenseless. Now all the offline modules have to be repaired and the station powered up.
The key to this is that the various components aren't all in the same location, and some do not have to be anchored at known locations. Mining outposts don't have to be anchored at the default warp location. As long as they sit within a set distance from a moon or belt, they can be brought online. The solar collectors can be placed anywhere in the system as long as its within 1.5 AU of the sun. Afterwards, once they changed hands, they could be unanchored and moved so the former owners would have to then locate them via the same means.
Skirmish warfare would have it's purpose through harassing/intercepting the NPC mineral convoys or randomly taking solar collects offline or off-lining the mining outposts. Scanning would allow these items to be located and warped provided you were within scanning range.
Spread out the targets and the blob will spread out with it. 10 smaller fights at 10 location sis better than 1 lagged out boring blob at 1 location. Prioritization then becomes a real concern. Save the collectors or save the mining ops or defend the station...choice is always good.
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hydraSlav
Synergy Evolved
Sparta Alliance
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Posted - 2007.07.31 20:38:00 -
[82]
Remove local = remove blobs
Without the enemy seeing in local what numbers you have, they won't have this "quota" to match and outblob. Plus it opens up a whole set of tactical options, like having a light wing on gate, with reinforcements standing by in a out-of-scan-range safespot.
==
Above comments are my personal views
Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
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maria stallion
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.07.31 22:49:00 -
[83]
Originally by: hydraSlav
Remove local = remove blobs
Without the enemy seeing in local what numbers you have, they won't have this "quota" to match and outblob. Plus it opens up a whole set of tactical options, like having a light wing on gate, with reinforcements standing by in a out-of-scan-range safespot.
I don't if this is correct, if people can't see locale they will be blobbing up more maybe since they don't know how much people they need to fight.
I think POS warfare should change aswell, atm it takes to long to shoot them down and it can take weeks to get any progress.
The other problem that is starting now is that the one that controls the blob controls the eve server. It has come to a point where alliances need to bring so many people in a system so it will become unplayable for the opponent. When you got 400-500 people in local login in to eve can take up to 60 minutes before you get in to the system, and offcourse it wo't be playable with a ping of probally above 5 minutes, if not higher.
There should be a different system to take over system, maybe should a station in multiple stages, so the station holder get some time to defend the station and the attacker has to take some effort in taking it.
For example:
The attackers atack the station, they need to shoot in 5 stages, each stage has a waiting time of x amount and if all stages have been shot down they own the station and sov.
There have been mentionend some good alternatives, I just hope CCP won't be to stuborn to see that there current direction will lead to the end of pvp and therising of the era of pve.
BTW I agree with the op and people that say you just need adapt haven't been in fleet fights or haven't been fighting strong alliances, otherwise they would know there is almost nog pvp possible anymore.
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tikinish
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:05:00 -
[84]
Edited by: tikinish on 01/08/2007 00:08:55
Originally by: Deep Throat
Edited by: Deep Throat on 31/07/2007 06:39:23
Edited by: Deep Throat on 31/07/2007 06:37:23
First off nice to see BE complaining
2nd, the situation atm in eve is a total annihilation of everything that is fun. 99% of the ppl that play the game atm are either
a) old timers who simply cant quit cause they been here so long and dont want to give all that time/work up
b)new players
c)isk farmers and their former amateur counterpart the "occasional" agent runners.
.
PLEASE make all this in a post by it self, so people will actually read it.
this is the best (most realistic) way to fix the problem ever! :D
although a random spawning place in a ss would be much better when you jump though a stargate then any other system of this kind (to prevent the camps
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Kagura Nikon
Minmatar
Guardians of the Dawn
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:07:00 -
[85]
People would blob more only for a few days without locl, then they would get tired and blob less and less.
If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough |
Kamikaze Loco
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:16:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Kamikaze Loco on 01/08/2007 00:17:17
BE & CagedRage are some of the few real PvP'ers left in this game. Listen too what they say!!!
I hear they talk about AAA tower. The tower they refer to is very evil! It's the most evil tower of AAA and probably one of the most evil towers in eve.
CagedRage, you know AAA, you were memeber short time ago. AAA is not your usual alliance in eve, but a pure PVP alliance. Our towers will never be (and has never been) easy to take.
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MrJordanIOI
Minmatar
The Lantern Mining Corporation
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Posted - 2007.08.01 00:52:00 -
[87]
Edited by: MrJordanIOI on 01/08/2007 00:52:26
Mostly agreeing with Deep Throat's post which summed it perfectly up, safe for maybe one item, the cloak, which I believe is also very much adding to the most unsupported element in the game:
-> UNPREDICTIBILITY <-
It is needed, it will help to reduce BlOBs and make this an interesting game yet again.
IOI
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Flack Nine
Minmatar
WICKER MAN LABS
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Posted - 2007.08.01 01:30:00 -
[88]
"convoys with extensive cloaked scout support if the local chat is nerfed"
Best reason to nerf local ive heard yet, sounds like fun
why should you get local for free in 0.0 anyway if you want it so bad u should pay for it with isk or a mod prehaps.
The frustration for me about 0.0 is that if you are not into large scale fleet battles theres little else you can do and because theres very little content in 0.0 eventually all you can do is blob each other and watch the computer freeze up.
And whats the point in going through all of this to take the station/outpost which you then cant blow up or loot
Dont take the easy way out and demand nerfs to everything, everything should have a counter and 0.0 corps should be able to develop new ships and mods through events and reserch in fact all new ships/mods/bpo's/trade goods etc should come from 0.0 and bpo's removed from empire
frankly empire needs a shake up its stagnated to long and is way to big for the amount of influrance it should have on the game atm
Before ccp fulfills peoples expectations of large fleet combat they should add more content/risk to the area to make it more special and worth all the effort people put into it
And finally why is it that outposts and soverinty are the only long term lifestyle in 0.0 why cant motherships be just that a roaming home which your alliance can operate out of |
Sorja
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.01 01:33:00 -
[89]
POSes killed the game for many, that's granted.
That and caps/supercaps.
At times, PvP feels like work now, and that's just... weird.
____________________
A gentleman is someone who can play the bagpipe, but who does not. |
Veng3ance
Illicit Technologies
|
Posted - 2007.08.01 01:40:00 -
[90]
Ummmmmmm.....
Make Medium and Small Pos's the only ones to contribute to Sov.?
That way Research, Manufacturing and capital yard Pos's are still hard to kill, but taking over a system would A) Take less people at a time or B) Allow a large force to split and fight multiple pos's at once.
Also, please, take out the Cyno Jammer, OR! Move it to Medium and Small Pos only 
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