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What? No. The Moa has 4 turrets and no damage bonus. The eagle has 4 and one damage bonus and a second range bonus. The eagle absolutly trounces the moas damage at all damage.

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Look at the damage it does. Yes, it does tremendous damage at extreme ranges. But if we do that, look at the descriptions of the other ships. The Zealot should, by all accounts be doing as much damage as a main battleship. The Abaddon would have zero cap issues[and also be invincible]

I mean this is the Zealot description "As a vanguard vessel, its thick armor and dazzling destructive power make it capable of cutting through enemy fleets with striking ease."

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But the muninn is not broken, so what is the problem with comparing the eagle to it?

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1. No, the Muninn isnt an all range damage boat.

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2. Even if it were that would not justify it being a useless sniper. The thing about versitility is that it has to be achieved without refitting to be of any use.

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3. I dont think you fully understand the power of the range bonus when dealing with tech 1 ammo, which the Eagle and Muninn really need to use in order to work.

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4. Adding ships to the discussion helps us get a feeling for where the balancing point would/should be. You dont balance ships in a vacuum, you balance them against their counterparts. A 5 turret eagle that still had its damage bonus would only be balanced against a 6 turret Zealot and Muninn. That is a Zealot that does as much gun DPS as an absolution. And a Muninn that is coming close to a sliepnir. Since we clearly cannot have a 6 turret Zealot or Muninn due to obvious balance issues, we also cant have this 5 turret damage bonused eagle. It seems nice to say "oh look, one less damage bonus, one more range bonus", but while it looks O.K. in the short range, it screws things up in the long range. And the ship needs to be balanced in the long range, not the short.

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Originally by: Bishop 5

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Originally by: Perry

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Omen (4) -> Zealot (4)
Moa (4) -> Eagle (4)
Thorax (5) -> Deimos (5) +drones
Rupture (4) -> Muninn (5) +drones
Stabber (4) -> Vagabond (5) +drones

I see a slight bias here. But i could be wrong.

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Deimos doesn't get any extra drones than the Thorax.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 12/08/2007 20:22:36
With lvl 5 skills a muninn can miss 50% of the time at 105km[it cant hit over 110 without 2 sensor boosters, and it cant fit 3 TC's/TE's without using 1 sensor booster, and its optimal is 114km] long range tech 2 ammo. For almost 750 alpha and 115 dps. Or he can load Faction carb lead and hit to 100km[assuming 1 sensor booster insated of two]. And deal 192 DPS for almost 1250 alpha.

An eagle will hit at 106km with faction thorium for 194 DPS with 683 alpha.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You realize you are comparing the WORST faction ammo the eagle, with the BEST faction ammo on the Muninn right? Faction ammo that barely even exists has sold around 100-200k ever, and goes for 4000 isk per unit right?

I am going to wager that you dont.

If you arent shooting interceptors/interdictors/other small ships you will be better in a tech 1 battleship. No joke, that is why you shouldnt be shooting other things except as an afterthought.

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Well, that would be right about balanced then since the Muninn cant hit things at 180-200km.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: KD.Fluffy

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That is like saying destroyers have no bearing on Assault Frigate, Frigate, or interceptor balance. Like saying cruisers have no breaing on HAC balance.

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WEll ****, i guess the cerb needs to do more damage because the drake can out damage and tank it. Buff the cerb.

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Range...

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Originally by: Goumindong

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All "extra turret" requests implicitly include the powergrid to fit the weapons.

So the Eagle, is as good as all the other antisupport snipers from 60km on, and better from 110km on. Right now. That the others are better in close is true, they are better in the very small range of 25-60km, and not by a significant amount. This is what we call balance. You gain something [dominance at long ranges] and lose something[some dps at short ranges].

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 14/08/2007 19:32:52
Not only am i supportive of tests on sisi, but ive put the god damn numbers in this thread, on this very page, with visual representation for you to see just how strong the range bonus really is

All primarily turret battleships firing tech 1 ammo will damage the HACs when sniping cruisers[and battleshipss], with the exception of the Eagle when not being compared to the Rokh[because the rokh decimates the rest with tech 1 ammo].

Such, balancing the ships based on their damage with tech 2 ammo, which cannot hit the intended targets[defined as the targets which it has an advantage in shooting] is much much less relevent than balancing them with tech 1 ammo. And they are balanced with tech 1 ammo. And you can see, clearly, in the graphs above how they would not be balanced with 5 turrets.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 15/08/2007 00:32:17

7 Seconds for a crusader with CN thorium. .5 second behind the Muninn.

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Its .5 seconds faster to kill an interceptor with its ammo of choice. Its infinity seconds behind the Eagle at longer ranges.

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An 8km/s inty making 4000m/s transversal will be hit 80% of the time at 105km by an eagle and close at ~6km/s. 5km/s trans will close at about 5.5-5km/s and be hit 80% at 135km. 6km/s trans will close 4km/s and be hit 80% of the time at 150km. 7km/s trans will be hit 80% of the time at 165, and close
at about 2kms. No, the tech 1 ammo is still the way to go. If the inty is charging into the fray its going to die.

You are exaggerating.

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This applies to all ships. Why should it not apply to an eagle?

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A whole half a second... And if the Muninn misses once, then the Eagle wins hands down.

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So we need 6 turret muninns and 6 turret Zealots?

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A ferox with 7 turrets would still do less DPS than a 4 turret eagle with faction ammo at 100km.

Eagle does 194. A 7 turret Ferox would do 181.7 dps.

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Yes, a few of those are good ideas, which is one reason why when i proposed a change it was a 25 cube drone bay, a change from the damage bonus to a Shield hit point bonus, and an increase from 4-5 turrets with commensurate fitting[such that overall dps is not increased]. Now it snipes just as well[with better close range support] and is a super-heavy tackler with decent DPS[450 DPS, 60k effective shield hit points, 1300m/s possible on same ship] with the right fitting.

I do not think the eagle should have 5 turrets and a damge bonus, I do not think that it couldnt use a change, like many of the other ships in the game.

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• No Dronebay
• Just 1 damage bonus
• Just 4 Turrets

Originally by: MailFan

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Alright im going to give this a fresh try. I'll try to sum up list to which (I think) we can all agree.

Eagle:
+ Possible tanking abilities due to resists and shieldtank
+ Superb range for a Cruiser

- Slowest HAC and almost heaviest (Remember Deimos getting a big speedboost)
- Poor damage output except for sniping ranges

• No Dronebay
• Just 1 damage bonus
• Just 4 Turrets

- Lack of pvp options due to shieldtank


Im pretty sure this is a fair list, since I could name quite a few extra cons and not many pros.

I do not believe the pros outweigh the cons here, not even close. And it seems we both agree on giving it a boost. Your idea of another turret for a missile slot, giving it a dronebay and replace the damage bonus for a shield bonus doesn't sound too bad. But Im fairly sure CCP will not give the Eagle a 25m3 dronebay, since Cerb pilots will undoubtly ask why they didn't get any. Also, Caldari just isn't a dronerace. This means there is still quite a gap in close range damage that needs to be filled. That's why I still suggest giving it another turret will fix this. I don't think it needs 25% extra damage output in sniping range, though I don't think it'll be overpowerd either. It could use 25% more damage on closerange.

Suggestion:
- Remove both Missile slots.
- Add another turret.
- Add powergrid, so that it can fit 5 turrets, but not without sacrificing a damage slot.
- Add a 10-15m3 dronebay for close range defence.
- Give it a little bit more speed and a little less mass (5-10% in both cases)*

* I could live without adding this bonus, though it is just a flying brick.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You are deluded, run the numbers. a 5 turret eagle would decimate them. With 5 turrets it would do more damage than the muninn unless the muninn were using EMP and it would outdamage the current Zealot at all ranges.

HACs are not made for the sole purpose of killing inties, but the long range HACs pretty much are. Your insistance that these snipers should be effective against cruiser and battlecruisers/ships is ludicrous because it means that those HACs that are effective against those forrces must also be overpowered in other roles.

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Originally by: Magazaki

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Edited by: Magazaki on 16/08/2007 16:37:23
No grudge, but you are missing my point entirely: I am not complaining that the eagle is not versatile. I just suggested exactly that this lack of versatility is good and completely inside the eagle's expected performance as long as it is better at its main role for it (which it blindingly adheres to in design philosophy). I don't want the eagle more versatile. That's what minnies are for. I want it to be more useful but with the same "focused to the point of blinders" Caldari design philosophy, not the "i can pull at least 4 aces from my sleeve and that's not counting the ones in my hand" minmatar philosophy.

Even if Gourmindog's suggestion COULD work for balance (I doubt it - 60k shields with 90+ resists cannot be good especially in a ship that is supposedly a sniper. The caldari don't need another drake.) - it is still wrong in direction.

In the same note, another suggestion that could work for everyone is giving all the hacs the same bonuses, the same hitpoints and slots, and make their guns have identical stats and same class dronebays. I guarrantee you they would be perfectly balanced with each other in their "intended roles" and the rest - and that is the problem with gourmindog's suggestion - it ignores racial differences for no reason, disregards the significance of consistent ship bonuses, disregards the linear progress of ship classes, and ultimately screws the eagle over for usefulness while making it uberpowered in, useless for this ship, roles such as Staying alive for a little more when primaried, Travelling from 0.0 to empire runs with little to fear, Baiting, et.c.

As someone very well put it "the eagle needs another tanking bonus as a fish needs a bicycle". Also, the lack of drones is design philosophy, not an error to be corrected. Yes changing bonuses and adding drones could fix some stuff. Giving the Deimos 5 missiles and 4 missile bonuses while taking its drones away would also keep it balanced, but it is stupid. This is the last problem with Gourm's eagle suggestion - it is completely pulled out of his hat, for no reason at all.

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Originally by: welsh wizard

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Keep it up folks, if this thread passes 15 pages the powers that be will start to take notice. :P

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None of which matter much if you arent a high priority target.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 18/08/2007 06:05:12
No the Muninn wont.

How can you possibly be this incompetent to realize that if the 5 turret Eagle beats the Zealot at all ranges over 50km, then it must also beat the ever so slightly lower dps muninn, which has worse tech 1 high damage ammo to boot.

The muninn is purple/green, the 5t Eagle is yellow/blue.

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You seem to be missing the part where the Eagle is outdamaging the Zealot and Muninn at all ranges avove 50km.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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I mention attacking cruiser sized targets as i mention its bad for them to do so. I mention it being a jack of all trades in reference to it not being one because it cannot perform as such without refitting...

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Neither the Zealot or the Muninn achieve that goal within that area. They are primarily snipers.

If you wish to see how it would be, look at the dps it has compared to the other two.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, you dont have to shoot inties, but you ought to be if there are any to target.

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There really arent inties that are too fast. IF all the inties are dead you have done your job. If there are no inties around, when your opponents are either very lucky or very dead.

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Tracking.

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It is at long range... If you want it to do more DPS at short ranges, then boost it so that it does more DPS at short range, or remove its two optaimal bonuses.

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I want it to be able to snipe and do damage in the line of a Cerb (which isn't a wtfpwndmg ship to begin with). Only the Cerb is specified as a long range HAC also, not the Muninn or Zealot. Ofcourse the Eagle would have falloff in damage at long range, but it should also have high dps at close range. A Beagle should not be outdamaged by a Missile HAC, which it does now.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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This is how its going to be overpowered. Its going to do more DPS in all sniping situations compared to the Zealot and the Muninn.

Graphs may be backwards. I am unable to check atm, since for some reason i cant get to photobucket. Pics may also be down.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 20/08/2007 14:31:12
But i wont for a moment take that the Muninn isnt a sniper with an optimal bonus. This just isnt a bonus designed to be used with autocannons. It is a bonus designed to be used with artillery. Why in the world is this NOT a sniper?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: MailFan

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Because it has speed, a dronebay, good tracking, 2 damage modifiers, good shield resists, agility, 3 launcher hardpoints, capless weapons and a damage output that's only surpassed by the ultimate ganking Gallente Hacs.

While on the other hand, it lacks shooting range to snipe, damage to snipe and locking range to snipe. Which you stated yourself.

And yes it has 1 optimal bonus. Does that mean that every ship with an optimal bonus is a sniper? No. Does 1 damage bonus means a ship is a gankmobile? No.

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Its slower, less agile, less damaging with a worse tank than the vagabond. It is worse in all ways compared to an AC vagabond. Yes, the optimal and tracking bonuses, combined with its huge PG are for sniping.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You should actualy look at a graph of the damage a vagabond and muninn do with ACs before you say that.[425s + heavy missile on vaga, 425s + HAMs on Muninn, drones omitted because they both have the same size bay]

Vagabond has twice the effive hit points as that Muninn, is 60% faster. Its capacitor lasts 1 minute 12 seconds running the mwd, and forver with it off[for bursting]. The Muninns lasts 37 seconds with the MWD, and 1 minute and 8 seconds without it and running the repair unit.

The vagabond targets faster[343 vs 306], has a higher sensor strength, and benefits more from falloff rigs.

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Originally by: Nyxus

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@ Mailfan - You still haven't come to terms that the Zealot, Munnin and Eagle all have a range bonus and a racial damage bonus. The racial damage bonus for Amarr is ROF, for Matari is damage, Caldari is range. On top of that all 3 get another damage bonus. For Caldari and Amarr it's a straight damage bonus. For Matari since 2 damage bonii and arties would be omgoverpowered it gets an rof bonus.

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These three seem to be in the same class. The Munnin just doesn't have the bonii or slots to be an AC ship (tracking + optimal). It's meant to use arties.

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If Goum's graphs are wrong I would still like someone to point out where they need to be changed to be more accurate. If you are going to just post numbers then please post what you are fitting on the ship to get those numbers. For example, 5 tracking mods on a zealot.

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Also, why hasn't anyone calculated dps/graph boosts for the Eagle with anything other than a 5th turret? Why does making the Eagle a better closer range fighter seem to be so not in vogue? Large fleet anti support seems rather a small niche to want to keep the Eagle in.

Nyxus

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Originally by: Goumindong

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1. In the first The Muninn is using Missile DPS and Drone DPS. Drone DPS that cannot hit without removing the two missile launchers. Not to mention the ridiculousness of drones and missiles at 84km[flight time+leaving your sentries behind] on ships without missile velocity bonuses[and its still pretty bad on those, but at least they do a lot of missile dps]
2. In the First and Second The Muninn is using +20% dmg faction ammo.
3. In the Third, the Eagle is using +5% Faction ammo...
4. The ridiculous Eagle fit for some reason doesnt have 4 damage mods, but does have a damage rig, ditto Muninn.
5. You have FALLOFF rig on the Eagle. Seriously? You have got to be kidding.

So you put some some ridiculous fits. Fudge the numbers to get results that arent actualy possible, fit like a complete fool, and then to top it off you discount the Eagle 14.2% DPS in ammo[about the difference between electron blasters and neutron blasters].

Use Caldari Navy and Federation Navy or Amarr Navy ammo, do not use any other faction ammo, it is just not in high enough supply.

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Originally by: Nyxus

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This is like saying a lobotomized badger can beat up a paraplegic racoon. Both ships are equally crap in the short range and would be annihilated by a real close range HAC. If we look at the ships designed for close range (Ishtar, Deimos, Vaga, Sac MKII) it's pretty evident that the Munnin wasn't meant to be short range.

But that still doesn't mean that an Eagle couldn't do fairly well shortrange if it had a bit more fitting for tank+blasters and a decent dronebay. A dronebay at range is fairly negligible while at close range it provides significant power. My issue is that it looks as if 5 turrets could be balanced for close range, but the double range bonus would make it do more dps AND more range when sniping. This is still up for debate though as several ppl have said that the graphs are incorrect somehow.

Goum has some points about your potential Munnin loadouts, although he was a bit harsh in his criticism. Drones and unbonused missiles shouldn't really be counted past 25 or 30km as far as dps is concerned.

@ Goum - While I agree with your assessment you should give him some loadouts that are a little more realistic so he has some sort of constructive feedback.

@ Welsh - I think the HP buff was good, but am in 100% agreement about speed in general. Things just move WAY to fast now and minimize range. With the introduction of heat we saw more boosts to speed. Anti-support snipers, ECM, ranged ships all suffer from reduced use now that 3km/s is fairly slow. With snakes and heat I have seen vagas go 50km/s+ and that is just rediculous. It reduces strategic battlefield placement and minimalizes ships and weapons. Anything fast+close range pwns and I don't like the trend at all. I will comment on your post.

Nyxus

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Originally by: Goumindong

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141 and 101 actualy. As well we are ignoring implants which can easily add the difference for not to much money. Adding a 3% rof and 3% dmg for med turrets you get right back up with the totals.

As well, the main problem with the fits is that they discount one ship at the expense of the others purposefully. Like giving the Muninn missiles and not giving the eagle missiles.

The problem isnt that 25% on 140 dps is that bad, its that in order to do that, it has to do 25% more dps everwhere, and that does pose a problem.

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Webber drones only come in large sizes. You would only get 1 with a 25 cube bay. And they arent that good.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Ive shown you the graphs. It would outdamage the Muninn from 35km to 200km.

That is unacceptable.

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Originally by: Aramendel

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Uhm...

Your graphs do not make much sense. I have never ever seen such zig-zag dps lines as the t2 sniping graph has. At least not under such circumstances. Such sudden dps losses only happen when you reach the maximum range of a weapon system, like the maximum range of your missiles or drones. YOu must have made an error there.

The inty sniping graph shouldn't be possible either. The muninns guns track betetr due to its bonus, but not by THAT much. That your eagle is somehow able to use BATTLESHIP SIZED guns might be the reason there. Try it again with 250mms, their tracking is slightly better.
You also use the 425mm rails in the t2 sniping graph. And for closerange you use the BS neutron blaster as well.

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Originally by: MailFan

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Ok im quite new to the whole spreadsheet thing, so there might be a mistake or two.

You can see the fitting on the bottom.

First graph shows a sniper Muninn (with 2 SB), a sniper Eagle with 4 turrets and sniper Eagle with 5 turrets and no missile launchers. All fitted with T2 ammo to do max damage. But you could also refit it with Faction ammo for better tracking. It would %-wise still be the same.

Snipe T2

The next one shows the same ships shooting at an Inty travelling 3000m/s transversal. I fitted all with navy ammo, otherwise there would be no damage at all and the Muninn with another TE which has a bigger advantage than the extra targetting range.

Inty Sniping

Last one shows close range fitted ships. Where the Eagle has 2 rocket launchers instead of 2 HAMs because otherwise it would have been left with 100pg to fit everything except for the guns and 3 damage mods. Where with rocket launchers the dps would almost be the same and the PG and cpu left would be about equal to the Muninns.

Close Range

I don't want to jump to conclusion yet, since there might be some errors. But it looks to me a 5 Turret Eagle (with no launcher slots), would soften the pain a bit.
If you change ammo types according to range, you might get the 5 turret Eagle to outdamage the Muninn at close range, but nobody's going to bring 6 different types of expensive Faction ammo to a fleetfight, especially not in an Eagle where your dps difference would be very small. Even worse is the fact that it takes 10 seconds of 0 dps which you will have make up everytime you switch, compared to a ship that stays at the same ammo. I.e. never going to work.
You bring 2, max 3 types of ammo.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, its not

You are still over a damage mod and under a tracking enhancer on the Eagle.

You are still OVER a tracking computer on the Muninn.[that it, its optimal range is 8% too high, and its tracking is 26% too high]

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You cannot fix that by giving the eagle more turrets and breaking it in the long range

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You still havent overlayed the tech 2 ammo graph with the best navy graph. You might want to just do the 5 turret or 4 turret version of this. Its tough to see what is happening with 6 lines on the graph.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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actually does

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4-5 seconds and the target has traveled 25-30km closer to you...

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You still have too many tracking mods on the Muninn

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700 DPS? Bwa ha ha ha ha, i love how it has two HAMS on it and the Eagle has rocket launchers...

I like how it has a 2 slot tank on a ship designed to be used under 2km. I like how its worse in all ways compared to a Hurricane[its not even faster since the Cane has free slots to put speed mods on, has an extra mid, and will tank better on base hit points than the Muninn will with its 2 slot tank.

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I like how it doesnt matter, because even if it were a good close range ship[which its not] it would not justify the eagle being broken in the long range.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You're doing it again...

4 damage mods, 3 tracking mods on a Muninn... 4 damage mods, 2 tracking mods on an eagle...

How about this. Your muninns/eagles do 0 dps over all ranges because they got stuck in a bubble and killed.

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No, you load for the engagement range you are expecting. If you are coming in at close range you fit for close range. If you are coming in at long range you fit for long range. If you are expecting to be jumped in on you fit ammo for where you expect to jump in.

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I understand the first part, but i dont understand the second part. The interceptor will put both 2-3km/s transversal and close 5km/s towards you if not more.

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No, the Eagle soundly trounces the Hurricane in long range DPS[so does the Muninn] remember what we were saying about range bonuses? Now the Cane is a good reason why the Muninn is bad in the short range, but not the long.

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Its not below average. Its good, it fills a unique role well. It performs as well as or better than any other ship in the fleet at its job.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Huh? You didnt fix any of the graphs.

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Yes, yes, and only 3-4 ammos, dont usualy need more.

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BCs are relevent when they do more DPS at all ranges than the compared ship, with better tank, and similar speed. You are saying the Muninn is a good AC ship. It isnt.

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Its not, it performs just as well as the Muninn/Zealot at 75-120km.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You still didnt fix it.

How hard is this. Put a freaking MWD on the thing, 2 sensor boosters, 2 tracking enhancers, 3 damage mods.

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Originally by: MailFan

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, its not

You are still over a damage mod and under a tracking enhancer on the Eagle.

You are still OVER a tracking computer on the Muninn.[that it, its optimal range is 8% too high, and its tracking is 26% too high]

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Thank you for pointing out why I left the TC and dropped the SB. You could fit a rig for a bit more locking range, but it's not needed since you can lock at 110km, which would give you 4-5s lock time at most.

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Originally by: Nyxus

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LOL jeez people I am Amarr and even I put the MWD on my snipers. In theory you can shoot one bubble, but if you jump into a contested gate then it *WILL* have multiple large bubbles and it's just not feasible to shoot them all, or there will be dictor bubbles.

You need to standardize the setups, the transversals, and the target (sig rad/speed etc). Otherwise you can't get a fair comparison, which is what I hope everyone wants. Making the setups standardized also makes sure that no one is fitting more slots than are actually on the ship.

Also - on the graphs you need to limit the dps of drones and missiles to 30km, as that is really the MAX range that they are good for when unbonused. Otherwise they are only good for tacklers that happen to make it to close range on you. It's also good to look at damage dealt across about 30 seconds as the Munnin's dps is low but the alpha is much more important than you might think.

And the Munnin is *NOT* a close range ship. Look at the bonii for the close range specialists, then at the Munnin. Then look at ACs and Arties. Tracking and optimal boosts are redundant. Anyone who says otherwise is being deliberately obtuse.

Nyxus

PS - Since no one else can be arsed I will put together some dps charts of an eagle with an enhanced drone bay, possibly a missile bonus if needed.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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And you are still wrong. THe Muninn and Zealot need 2 sensor boosters. 110km lock range doesnt cut it.

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ed: and you still refuse to look at a graph with a 5 turret eagle, muninn, or zealot with both tech 1 ammo and tech 2 ammo.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Look at it on the same graph. See, if you dont, it looks like the Muninn has an advantage over the eagle with tech 2 ammo. But you see it doesnt, because where the Muninn is using tech 2 ammo the 5t eagle outdamages it with tech 1 ammo

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Originally by: Goumindong

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When did this happen.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Yes, they can, better than many ships actualy. For instance of the HACs we are discussing here, only the Caldari one can fit a mwd,web,srcam,injector, +tank.

And of all the HACs, only the Caldari HACs, the Ishtar, and Vagabond can fit an MWD, web, scram, injector and tank.

Caldari have many more options due to the high numbers of mid slots.

For instance a 5/4 config can fit

MWd, web, scram, buffer, buffer
buffer, dmg, dmg, dmg[no inj needed on passive tank

Or

mwd, web, scram, inj, ew
tank, tank, tank, tank

Or

Mwd, web, scram, inj, tank
tank, dmg, dmg dmg.

The only thing they cant do is fit LOTS of active tank, or lots of active tank with DPS]

but...

Active tank is not nearly as beneficial as passive tank, ewar, or DPS in a gang, and high mid slots ships can easily fit loads of passive tank, ewar, and DPS in relation to their high low slot competition.

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Mwd, web, scram, inj, tank
tank, dmg, dmg dmg.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Some setups

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Originally by: Goumindong

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As i said in the last post. Neither of those tank as well as the passive eagle.

The eagle uses EM rigs because they are more efficient than hit point rigs when a second LSE increases hit points by 50%

The eagle uses electrions instead of Ions because the ability to fit HAMS increases DPS higher than the difference betweens ions and electrons.

You still havent given a reason why drones cant happen.

and there is no problem in the long range

ed: Oh, and if i fit the eagle with 2 ammo it does 421 DPS.

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Originally by: Damned Force

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caldari snipers sux

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Originally by: SkyEstaLimit

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Hmm ... complaining about your PG ? On the above setup i can see four cruiser sized blasters, two heavy assault launchers, a mwd and TWO large shield extenders without any fitting mod or rigs. Well wow, now im jealous. Try to fit a 1600mm plate a on deimos, have fun.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Are you saying the eagle should be as good with blasters as the Deimos?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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That eagle has 20km range with the HAMs, an MWD, a web, and 13km range with Null. It passivly tanks 89 DPS.

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The Eagle has plenty of range, and good DPS. It is probably the best blaster eagle you will be able to make in the current setup. And despite what you say, beagles are not such terrible ideas.

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Deimos DPS @ 91km = 235. Eagle DPS =216...

Eagle Tracking > 4 times that of Deimos tracking.

When was the last time you saw a Deimos as an antisupport sniper? Never? Really, i wonder why that is.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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If the deimos were a good sniper, people would use it as a sniper, regardless of its quality in other roles. People do not stop using the megathron as a sniper since its such a good blasterboat

200 dps will kill a rifter just fine.

If you have 1 minute module lag then whatever you are doing doesnt matter really. But you dont have to keep switching ammo.

Look, if you are starting a battle with enemies at 150km, you load 150km range ammo and shoot them. You only do this before combat starts.

So if you are using 150 DPS ammo, and the Deimos is using spike, then you ought to have a 50km range advantage. If not, then yea, you only have 4.6 times the tracking of the deimos. Yea, taht isnt any advantage at all

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Originally by: Albrecht Wassenar

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Did anyone see what I said earlier? "/ignore Goumindong"

There. Problem solved.. hes obviously nuts and had no idea what hes talking about.. so ignore him.. thats what we do with people who dont pay attention or refuse to keep up with the conversation. Its harsh I know.. but how else are they going to learn.. So.. In a nut shell. Other ships; same class and cheaper ones are able to do many of the things that the Moa hull class tries to do, as well, if not better than it can at its supposed (according to the description) strong areas. With the Eagle, its range is so large, that it makes it self ineffective, because all it takes is 2 mouse clicks to remove the range or does such crap DPS that anything and their mother can get close to it unless its made of paper or being piloted by an idiot. Points raised for giving the Moa class a 5th turret have lots of merit and little to no cons as all it does is make the hull more competitive, giving the PVP pilot more options and hopefully reducing cost of the other similar ships due to competition.. Anything else I missed?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Fit faction ammo you fool.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You cannot sacrifice the MWD.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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MWDs are essential in 0.0 to get out of warp disruption bubbles.

MWDs are not essential on long range ships.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, it does not. Do i have to show you the graph again?

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66 dps before resists @ 20km vs 66 dps after resists at 150km.
Hmmmmm

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Originally by: Goumindong

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The point is that people here are saying the Deimos is better with rails than the eagle. It isnt. The eagle performs a role and the deimos doesnt, because the deimos isnt able to perform against the targets that that class of ships needs to perform against to be usefull in a fleet.

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The issue is giving the Eagle the 5th turret, which doesnt affect its performance much in the short range[where it will still be had], but really affects it largly in the long range, where it is already the best.

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"Mid range" starts at 40km, the Muninn is already equal to the Eagle at those ranges, not even considerering the problems with drones.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, it was flat out said that the deimos was better with rails than the eagle.

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Not for a fleet. And that is the issue at hand. You have to both balance the ships performance in a fleet AND its performance in small gangs. You cannot do that by adding another turret, that unbalances it in the fleet.

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1. Graph 1 = Still toasted by the Muninn/Vagabond/Deimos with no unique role

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2. Graph 2 = Way to ignore tech 1/faction ammo buddy. Dont do that, because where that is in relation to the other damages is important.

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3. Graph 3 = With Lead, the 5t eagle outdamages everything above 80km. I fail to see how this supports a point based upon balancing the eagle.

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4. Graph 4 = comparing totally situations without figuring for closing time and locking distance

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5. All the graphs = Absloutly ridiculous fits that never fly.

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My graph does not capture a single situation, but a number of different situations. Depending on the starting engagement range.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: MailFan

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? No it doesn't unbalance it. Especially not in a fleet where 25dps extra on the overall is almost neglectable. Real balancing issues come to light 1vs1 or in small gangs, because that's where individual performance is the most noticable.

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DPS increases are MOST noticable the larger the gang gets. Do you think no one would notice if the Eagle or Eagle or Eagle suddenly gained 25% more dps?

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Originally by: Klavayne

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As an Eagle pilot myself ive watched this thread fairly passively for a while now. Its going nowhere fast.

To be honest, i'm not sure whether it needs it or not. Sure, the 25% damage would be very appreciated and would take the eagle back in line with its power before the HP boost. However, i suspect that another turret could possibly make the beagle slightly overpowered, then again, it could not.

You see, to find these things out we'd need to test them in real situations. As people have pointed out, graphs dont help work out if something is imbalanced. People dont sit in game comparing a graph of their damage output against a graph of someones tanking capabilities, deciding which one would win. They actually fight.

I'm getting slightly sick of seeing goumindong bring out all these random graphs to prove a point. I had a little search to see how much goumindong has flown an eagle, and i couldnt find any evidence of him using one at all. How can you campaign against the eagle getting an extra turret when you've never used it, you dont even seem to have used a muninn which you fear will become obsolete.

As for people who say the zealot needing another turret, maybe it does, maybe it doesnt, ive never used one so i cannot comment. But that is a seperate issue, if you think the zealot needs another turret, campaign for that to get another turret.

What on earth have people got to lose by having the devs give the eagle an extra turret (and respective increase in fitting) on the test server? That way we can test it in real situations. If its overpowered and is majorly unbalanced at shooting interceptors, then its left as it is. But graphs wont show us that.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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I hate to break this to you, but there are no people in this thread who regularly engage in 0.0 fleet warfare.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Edited by: Goumindong on 07/09/2007 22:56:55
183+15 = 198

As good as 200km. But yes, you wont be doing full damage and if you can you want to be engaging below 183km.

Set yourself 183km from the gate and your snipers then instead of 200km. It doesnt make much of a difference.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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And why does this then not apply to the Muninn and Zealot? The Muninn which loses 7.5% tracking, the Zealot which loses 5% dps. Both of which lose 15% range when they dont have nearly as much to spare?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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The eagle would make the Deimos look like a joke with 5 turrets a double damage bonus and its current configuration, hell, its current fitting as well

5x Electron II, 1x HAM II
MWD, Web, Scram, LSE II, LSE II
DCII, MFS II, MFS II, MFS II

5x Hammerhead II

742 DPS. Bigger passive tank than anything a 3 MFS deimos could put out

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Originally by: Goumindong

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except that such an Eagle would utterly trash a Deimos. The eagle needs no such boost to be usefull in that capacity, giving it other bonuses that are usefull in the roles, but not similar while giving it a reasonable drone bay would not break it, and nor would it bring it anywhere near the ridiculous idea of what it would need.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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elm: the problem is not that the eagle gets too good in the short range its that ie eagle gets too good in the long range.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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above 60km. Your fleet commanders do. We have already established that a change to 5 turrets doesnt make it good in a small gang or 1v1 because sniping is not something you do in a small gang or 1v1. If you want it to be good in a small gang or 1v1 you ought to be supporting something similar to my propoals.

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Originally by: Elmicker

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Haven't read the thread at all, have you? Even on this page alone we've demonstrated that the eagle is currently on par (or very slightly below par) with the muninn, its main competition, which is supposed to do more damage. Putting a 5th, triple bonused turret would put it waay ahead of any competition, at all ranges.

Removing the damage bonus to an extent, lowers its effectiveness in the ultra-short range as most engagements there will happen close enough for anyone to close to max damage range so the damage bonuses from your range bonuses go out the window. However, then adding the 5th turret brings the ship up to par in the close range theatre, slightly behind the other close range HACs which feature pure damage bonuses. It then allows it to excel in the mid-long range, where its range bonuses can be abused to the max.

Also. 10% HP and 25m3 of drones would probably make this thing a serious beast.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Figure similar ammo into your graphs. If the Eagle is better than the Muninn at a given range it will be used over the Muninn. Such you need to compare ammo that has the same range.

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Figure similar fits into your graphs. If you are comparing Muninns with rigs you should also compare Eagles with rigs. That means 3 tracking computers on the eagle, not two. And hell, while we are at it it could use another MFS if we are really going to compare similar fits in that regard, but its a bit excessive.

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If you dont, then what in the hell are you comparing?

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Figure transversal into your tech 2 graphs. The tracking penalty really matters.

Figure both tech 1 and tech 2 ammo into you tech 2 graphs. If tech 1 ammo is better at a range its important to know when deciding which ship to choose.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: MailFan

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And @Goum, yes I was right. The Moa outdamages the Eagle unless you have HAC5, which is simply embarasing.

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No, you are simply wrong.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You arent going to be staying out of web range in an eagle. Use the sheild resist bonus, put up a big buffer, and tough it out.

That being said, yea, the eagle could use a boost in the short range, 25 cubes and 50% more shields sounds great.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Sisi cannot handle the types of battles needed to test this. I have repeatedly said i will get on the test server and test DPS against interceptors.

I have also repeatedly explained that testing is only to create a model you can use to predict the outcome of any inputs. But we already have the model that we can use to preduct the outcome, since CCP made it and gave it to use in clean mathmatical format.

The problem is very simple. With an added turret it outperforms the Zealot and Muninn at all sniping ranges. If you can find a way for it to not outperform the Zealot and Muninn at all sniping ranges while giving it another turret, go right ahead.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Battlecruisers and Battleships can shoot cruisers. They are better at it. if you want to shoot cruisers you should fly one of them. Are you going to take the 10 seconds to change ammos before shooting that cruiser?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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You can start out with different ammos loaded. Why would i fly a Muninn if i could load CN thorium and have all the range and 25% more DPS with the ability to change ammo and hit farther if necessary?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Different ammo in that the Eagle does not have to come into a battle with CN lead loaded. It can also start a battle with CN thorium loaded.

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If the eagle with CN thorium does as more DPS than the Muninn with RF Carb Lead, why fly the Muninn? The Muninn comes in with optimal ammo and the Eagle can either be as good or better than it in a similar fit, and at the same time have the option of changing ammos and shooting at things farther away.

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Remember, as you say, changing ammo in the middle of the battle is never usefull, such there is never a point where you will have tremor loaded.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Are you saying that the Eagle is the best HAC for the job then? Because it has the longest optimal range?

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If you always fit your longest range ammo there must be a reason for that. If you think that that course of action is the best, then clearly there is never a point for the Muninn, since it has a smaller optimal range and similar DPS to the eagle when it fits that range ammo, and you never load that range ammo...

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So when you are deciding what do train you think "hmmm, i want to fight in fleets, ill use the raven!"

Because that makes no sense at all.

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Originally by: Disposeble Alt

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Edited by: Disposeble Alt on 19/09/2007 10:42:29
What happens if you fit blasters for short range in an eagle with your requested 5th turret slot?
Would that still not be overpowered?

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Originally by: BronYAurStomp

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Has there been a dev reply yet?

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Originally by: tartrus

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hehe i give up...i cbf fighting with u over somthing u know nothing about...but then again eft told u it was right so it must be

but hey im not claiming to know everything but i can say this if the eagle gets a buff u can exspect a buff muninn thread cus right now they seem even.

edit :Spelling

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Originally by: Liang Nuren

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Even if this thread were to grow to 500 pages, the devs would not read it. Oveur openly stated on Eve TV that they ignore the forums because of a high signal-to-noise-ratio. I blame Goumindong because obviously my posts are all signal.

Liang

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Originally by: Goumindong

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No, it requires best navy ammo. Which is readily available.

Also, a Muninn cannot alpha cruisers. I just showed you, how a Muninn would never catch up in DPS against a HAC. HACs have on average more hit points than cruisers. This means that the extra damage the Muninn does while the eagle is changing ammo is more important. Lets put it this way. when the muninn first shoots, the Eagle will have already dont more damage than the Muninns first volley.

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Originally by: d026

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Lets put it this way. when the muninn first shoots, the Eagle will have already dont more damage than the Muninns first volley.

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do you ever shoot or just loading ammo ?

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Originally by: Goumindong

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The eagle shouldnt have spike loaded. And yea, if the eagle has long range ammo loaded and needs to change it will suffer a 10 second penalty compared to the Muninn.

Anyway, i have layed out situations where its advantagious for the eagle to enter the fight with Thorium loaded. The same doesnt exist of the Muninn since it shold have that range of ammo loaded initially.

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Originally by: d026

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he will argue that you cant fit a tracking comp on a muninn because you wold have to sacrifice your mwd:)

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Originally by: Goumindong

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If you are going to fit ridiculously then at least fit evenly you disingenius punk.

Eagle:
SBII, SBII, TC, TC, TC
MFS, MFS, MFS, MFS

Tracking: .05519

The fact is that the standard fits are not anywhere near these, but are instead

Muninn
MWD, SB, SB
TE, Te, Gyro, gyro, gyro

Tracking: .04482

Zealot:
MWD, Sb, SB
Te, TE, TE, HS, HS, HS, wildcard

Tracking: .05155

I mean, what the hell is wrong with you, the eagle is the only one there able to fit an MWD and for some reason you fit an AB instead?

You can rig all three, using one sensor booster and 1-2 lock range mods, with 1-2 speed range mods. That puts the numbers back where I listed.

edit: If you want to be real technical, the tracking of the Zealot and Muninn you listed is actually zero, since they died when they couldnt relocate with the fleet. Fit an MWD.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Why would i want to fly that when i can fly a 440 dps cerb that goes 2800m/s and hits to 40km?

Or a Vagabond that is twice as fast with more DPS to 25km?

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I use neither 4 damage mods nor best pirate ammo to hit 470 dps in an eagle. It is a bit ridiculous, better with ions, a DCU and LSE.

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The balance of the Zealot is relevent to the balance of the eagle. You cant talk about the ship in a vacuum.

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The eagle will only do 420 dps, but it will do everything else, 48k+ hp though.

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Originally by: tartrus

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peeps say a eagle lacks teh dps to pop a frig and my mate lol's at that.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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Originally by: Hugh Ruka

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Let's say we take a moderate guess that kin/therm resists are in the 70% range.

48 dps would translate to 160DPS unresisted. About right with spike loaded and normal (i.e. not all L5) skills.

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Ahh, that makes sense.

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Originally by: Nyxus

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lol at anyone griping about resists for rails.


Try using radio in your beam Zealot and shoot at a Munnin or two. Then come back and tell me how bad rail resists are on T2 ships.

Nyxus

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Originally by: ColetteLehtola

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I have not read everything. But I don't know why anyone up to page 10 have not asked "Goumindong" why he is comparing none sniper ships to a sniper ship?
Munin and eagle, here's some basic math for you.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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The number of people arguing has nothing against me has nothing to do with the veracity of their claims or quality of their arguements.

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Originally by: Goumindong

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I did, just not directly. Experience has an effect on the truth value of an unsubstantiaed claim. But this requires no such info, unless the claim is that the eagle is not performing as the stats suggest it should.

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Originally by: MECHcore

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56 pages and still no answer from CCP

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Originally by: Nyxus

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I wonder if the new nerf to Sensor boosters and tracking computers will make the Eagle more desirable. Since BS will no longer be able to instalock cruiser and smaller targets small groups of 3-5 Eagles should appear to be almost mandatory for large fleets for anti support work.

Of course smart fleets were already using em, but now I think their value will rise because of this.

Nyxus

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Originally by: Nyxus

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As for empirical tests, when I look at the numbers for a 5T eagle I see a couple of things. 1- I am not sure the DPS boost at 150km+ really helps the Eagle enough, it's still a REALLY niche ship, 2- It obsoletes 2 other Hacs almost completely. That's enough to make me come to the conclusion that 5T is not a good solution.

Zealot definitely needs love of some type, agreed. As many versions of what it needs as the Eagle. Munnin needs....something. Part of the problem is the Vaga is just so good. Part of the problem is that range is so minimized right now. Part of the problem is the slot layout is incredibly restrictive. Not sure what it could get.

No one disagrees that the Eagle needs love. The problem is that boosting the long range sniping of the Eagle is incredibly difficult (shooting anti-support generally means that they are either not taking much damage, or dead), easily obsoletes other ships, and doesn't help make the Eagle more of a "fun" or more "generally useful" ship to use.

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