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Skill point reset - ideas and discussion.

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Wulff Morgenthaler Express Solutions 0	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:49:00 - [1] - Quote Hello, I'd like to start a discussion about the idea of sp reset in eve. It has been mentioned, if I remember correctly, at the 2010 fanfest but somehow it never came up again. The idea is simple: add the ability to redistribute skill points for your character. Just to make it very clear: it's not about buying additional skillpoints, It's working with just what you already have. The tool is already in the game (used to distribute bonus skillpoints that have been returned after learning skills removal, bonus sp reimbursed for long server outages and so on). It could use some love to make the process of spending large amounts of sp easier and faster but that's easy to figure out. As for the skillbooks, they could just appear in the hangar ready to be reused, dissappear completely or stay injected and allow sp once all requirements are met. Of course the feature should have a limit, for example just like the attribute remaps are possible only once a year (without "bonus sp remaps"), the cost of it would be the same as character transfer - 2 plex or the equivalent in $/eur. Pro's: - a lot of not-so-great chars could become awesome and be sold on the market (we've all seen 80-90mil sp chars with 30mil wasted) = drop of char prices - more money for ccp = happy ccp = more updates. As for the con's... I can't think of any, maybe someone comes up with something that makes sense. Such a feature isn't gamebreaking, we can find it in many mmo's (in different forms and shapes), It would just allow everyone to "reinvent" their character. Such a "reset" is already possible in a convoluted way: sell your current character, buy another. This feature would make it much easier and allow us to keep the toons we got used to. I'd also would love to hear from CCP if such an idea has been actually discussed or is it out of the question. Cheers
Renarla 7	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:51:00 - [2] - Quote It's probably never going to happen, but I would enjoy if it did. I have a few mill of SP I'd love to redistribute, but it would definitely need to be on like a 6 to 12 month cooldown to avoid abuse.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4328	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:51:00 - [3] - Quote Cons: It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. It's a hordid idea. Live with your choices. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Luba Cibre 29	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:52:00 - [4] - Quote If people can't plan their characters rights, it's their own fault and they deserve a **** character.
Jaroslav Unwanted Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1277	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:56:00 - [5] - Quote Luba Cibre wrote: If people can't plan their characters rights, it's their own fault and they deserve a **** character. In the end it does not matter.. But as Tippia said .. even if based on assumptions and conclusions .. But if everyone was that smart it will end like that..
Xercodo Train Brigade 789	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:56:00 - [6] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cons: It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. Those are the key ones because of this: Remap to all Perception and Willpower Plug in just Perception and Willpower implants Train something big like Carrier 5 Redistribute SP to w/e you want like Charisma heavy leadership skills Repeat 3 and 4 ad infinitum The Drake is a Lie
baltec1 449	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:58:00 - [7] - Quote I wish I had not trained all of those mining skills but I dont want a tool to remove my past mistakes.
Zimmy Zeta Battle Force Industries Tactical Invader Syndicate 642	Posted - 2012.01.12 22:59:00 - [8] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cons: .... It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. ...... . Personally, I rather like those two points. Removing learning implants or even removing the attribute system altogether would be the best thing that could happen to eve. -.-
Damien McCandless Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 0	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:01:00 - [9] - Quote Wulff Morgenthaler wrote: ...As for the con's... I can't think of any, maybe someone comes up with something that makes sense. Such a feature isn't gamebreaking, we can find it in many mmo's (in different forms and shapes), It would just allow everyone to "reinvent" their character. Such a "reset" is already possible in a convoluted way: sell your current character, buy another. This feature would make it much easier and allow us to keep the toons we got used to. I'd also would love to hear from CCP if such an idea has been actually discussed or is it out of the question. Cheers People who have a ton of isk, very old high SP characters, people who buy and sell characters, and those who simply want to maintain their advantage over someone else will cry out against this. It really only helps people in the mid to low SP range be able to change their character's focus immediately. The character bazaar would possibly go away or become very generic since it will turn into isk/SP regardless of where the points are. I could see someone sitting on 10 industry characters being very excited about this. The guy who is farming those 5mil SP Tengu "pilots" they hope to sell for 3 bil isk...not so much.
Morganta Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia 813	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:02:00 - [10] - Quote I might also add that it would wreak havoc on the character bazaar bah... ninjad The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy

ASadOldGit School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 93	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:05:00 - [11] - Quote Luba Cibre wrote: If people can't plan their characters rights, it's their own fault and they deserve a **** character. And how do you expect a new player to plan their characters correctly? Have you not noticed that your second character is always more highly optimised than your first? Implying that you learnt something that you did not know about with your first character. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that anyone's first character will be planned correctly. My container is NOT imploding! It's just a bit upset that it only sees cheap crap.
Ai Shun State War Academy Caldari State 126	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:06:00 - [12] - Quote Tippia wrote: Cons: It removes the point of having skills to begin with. It removes the point of having attributes. It removes attribute implants from the game. It removes variety and instead encourages FOTM and cookie-cutter setups. It removes the uniqueness, history and "character" of your character. It removes planning and choice and consequences. It removes goal-setting, progression and any achievement in those areas. It kills character trading. It massively boosts older characters over new ones. It introduces "catching up" as a concept in EVE and instantly makes it impossible to do. It's a hordid idea. Live with your choices. +1 Ai is a terribly organised character that has migrated from concept to concept. Starting to come to grips a bit better now, but taking that all away creates too big a disassociation between the character and the experience. I think it will have more of a negative influence on player / character association than one would expect.
Jaroslav Unwanted Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 1277	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:07:00 - [13] - Quote ASadOldGit wrote: Luba Cibre wrote: If people can't plan their characters rights, it's their own fault and they deserve a **** character. And how do you expect a new player to plan their characters correctly? Have you not noticed that your second character is always more highly optimised than your first? Implying that you learnt something that you did not know about with your first character. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that anyone's first character will be planned correctly. I am. Even tho my alts reaching my SP .. since i havent learned learning skills until i was able to sit in BS xD
ASadOldGit School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 93	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:19:00 - [14] - Quote Tippia wrote: It kills character trading. While I agree with some of your points, how is this ^ a bad thing? I know you never mentioned it, but to me, this is an example of pay-to-win - an ability gained for cash without effort or penalty. A skill remap, however, is an ability gained with effort (you had to do the time to get the skill points) and a penalty (you lose an ability, whether you wanted it or not). As long as there were time restrictions, something similar to attribute remaps, would it really be that bad? (I will concede that Xercodo has a point about this being farmed/abused, but how is that different than the character bazaar?) My container is NOT imploding! It's just a bit upset that it only sees cheap crap.
Luba Cibre 30	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:24:00 - [15] - Quote ASadOldGit wrote: Luba Cibre wrote: If people can't plan their characters rights, it's their own fault and they deserve a **** character. And how do you expect a new player to plan their characters correctly? Have you not noticed that your second character is always more highly optimised than your first? Implying that you learnt something that you did not know about with your first character. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that anyone's first character will be planned correctly. On my first character, not a single Skillpoint is wasted, because i skilled universal support skills the first 3 month until i know, what i really want to do. If i can do this, everyone else can do it.
Tippia Sunshine and Lollipops 4334	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:31:00 - [16] - Quote ASadOldGit wrote: And how do you expect a new player to plan their characters correctly? They won't, but it doesn't matter: while they're new, they won't be able to get so far/deep enough into something that it becomes a crippling mistake. The supposed problem this idea solves is so minor compared to the massive problems it causes especially when it comes to older players' advantage over newer ones. It turns a character from being a selection of (more or less) carefully chosen skills and deliberately picked attribute points, with trade-offs done at every point, into being just a big pile of SPGÇª and guess who has the most SP to play with and who is thus better poised to take advantage of this situation? New players won't always choose and plan correctly, but they can, will, and do learn. In fact, the current system rather forces them to, and that's a good thing. Once they've learned how to, they already can fix their mistakes and start learning things they didn't realise they needed before. Now imagine what will happen if they immediately get fed the notion of GÇ£your decisions don't matter GÇö you can fix it laterGÇ¥. They figure, three months in that, oh no, they made the wrong decision, so they fix itGÇª except that they still haven't learned and thus break it even more instead, and are now trapped with a broken character until the next occasion enforced by the restriction. During all that time, they have to resort to the already existing avenues of fixing things: training what you wanted to do from the beginning. They also can't adapt all that quickly to the changes in balance or the introduction of new stuff. Older players, on the other hand, will save their resets for crucial points and always be able to instantly switch to the latest FOTM and pick up the new cool toys, reoptimising themselves for the new situation, and thus leaving the poor newbie in the dust. On a more conceptual level, the issue is this: this idea comes from the level/class based systems where picking one class excludes you from everything else, and where, at some point, you might want to respec for a new class. EVE is not such a system. It doesn't have classes or levels. It doesn't exclude anything ever. If you want to GÇ£respecGÇ¥ you can do that: just train what you want. The fundamental problem that this idea is trying to solve doesn't exist in EVE, and as a result, the solution only breaks things rather than solve them. In particular, it massively screws over new players and makes large part of the character building mechanics completely irrelevant. ASadOldGit wrote: While I agree with some of your points, how is this ^ a bad thing? I know you never mentioned it, but to me, this is an example of pay-to-win - an ability gained for cash without effort or penalty. It's a bad thing because it ruins a legitimate player-run industry. Also, it's no more pay-to-win that what the OP suggests GÇö in fact, it's far less, since characters are limited in availability and are usually built towards a particular goal. If none exists, you can't buy that brand of GÇ£winGÇ¥ (and your desired brand might not even exist at all). Those characters are built with the same effort required to build up your own SP. What the OP suggests means you can buy your win just fine because there are no longer any restrictions on what's available to you. Again, you are no longer a set of skills (which is what you're buying in the character bazaar), but a pile of SP. GÇªand that's assuming we even buy the argument that it is pay-to-win to begin with (which is highly debatable, since it takes quite some time to learn to use such a characterGÇª some even suggests that it takes longer than it takes to gather the SP). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ If not, contact Miss DSA to shed your wardecs.
Vyl Vit Cambio Enterprises 205	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:38:00 - [17] - Quote What Tippia said. To her it doesn't matter much.-á It's chasms have been leapt, and she leans upon the skepticism of her chosen fate.
Cyzlaki Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD. 189	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:42:00 - [18] - Quote This is only needed if we were to respec to skills we cant train. In EVE, we can train all skills, so not needed.
ASadOldGit School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 94	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:48:00 - [19] - Quote Tippia wrote: [...] The supposed problem this idea solves is so minor compared to the massive problems it causes especially when it comes to older players' advantage over newer ones. [...] Dammit, woman - stop making sense. You make some excellent points there. Thank-you. My container is NOT imploding! It's just a bit upset that it only sees cheap crap.
Ocih Space Mermaids 47	Posted - 2012.01.12 23:58:00 - [20] - Quote It might be a good idea for new accounts in thier first 6 months. Some nooblets splash alot of SP around not knowing how the EVE niche system works but even there, adjusting SP is second thought. Most of them figure out they were wrong about EVE and will leave to find a game they will like. I really don't know if an SP reset system would entice them to stay or not. For Vets, it's all about nerf proofing and dropping skills for FotM isn't something they will do. Adding this as a multiple use feature would do us good in terms of pigeon holing CCP and thier nerf bat because we could just respec out of the nerf but that said, don't count on it happening.

Aoki Ayumi University of Caille Gallente Federation 14	Posted - 2012.01.13 00:42:00 - [21] - Quote Maybe let redistribute only 1.000.000 sp per year? That could show the fact that people when learn too many things, forget another ones. And I could get rid of Mining level 2....... my character doesn't really remember how to mine.
Xuko Nuki Submerged Living 27	Posted - 2012.01.13 00:46:00 - [22] - Quote Couldn't you just hire a homeless coke addicted hacker to destroy the databases?
I Love Boobies All Hail Boobies 61	Posted - 2012.01.13 00:47:00 - [23] - Quote Renarla wrote: It's probably never going to happen, but I would enjoy if it did. I have a few mill of SP I'd love to redistribute, but it would definitely need to be on like a 6 to 12 month cooldown to avoid abuse. Just wanted to say that you have an awesome character picture. Your's looks more, um, "real" compared to many. ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) ( o Y o ) The world would be a better place if boobies ran the world instead of boobs.
MadMuppet Kerguelen Station 77	Posted - 2012.01.13 03:19:00 - [24] - Quote My opinion on the idea from an older thread: I think the only way something like this would be even remotely tolerated would be: -50% loss of skillpoints (If you want to recycle 1,000,000SP you would only get 500,000SP back). While this might sound high, it prevents people from harvesting combat skills (which they trained faster) for Charisma based skills. -The skill points are accumulated back in to your queue at double your training rate until the surplus is gone. -This can only be done once a month. -Some skills cannot be reprogrammed (like Infomorph Psychology or skills that are dependency skills, no keeping BS skills and getting rid of Frigates) Example: Say I want to recycle my Ice Harvesting V's 256,000 SP I pay the Aurum for the amount to recycle (call it 1AUR = 100SP for now) which is 2560 AUR. I get a learning buffer of 128,000 SP to apply to my skills. The learning buffer will double my SP learning until the buffer is empty, it then returns to normal learning rates. So, if I am earning 2000SP/hr normally, I will be earning 4000sp/hr for the next 64 hours (at which point the buffer is empty). However, there are so many people rallied against this kind of thing I doubt it would ever happen. At least above you are imparting a significant penalty for doing it while allowing players to correct there errors in the past over time. -Mad The need to code such a thing to reverse check skills might be far more work, and buggy, than CCP would want to mess with. Yes, I only have a Vigil, I've had a bad bit of luck Ok?
Signal11th 402	Posted - 2012.01.13 13:33:00 - [25] - Quote ASadOldGit wrote: Luba Cibre wrote: If people can't plan their characters rights, it's their own fault and they deserve a **** character. And how do you expect a new player to plan their characters correctly? Have you not noticed that your second character is always more highly optimised than your first? Implying that you learnt something that you did not know about with your first character. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that anyone's first character will be planned correctly. No offence but why does that even matter? you mess you skills up like we all have at sometime, you then eventually plan and start training for what you actually want. I'm noticing a proliferation of me,me,me,now,now,now people starting to post. Christ I have weeks and weeks into skills I hardly ever use but one day sometime in the future I might actually use them. Christ I have over month and then some trained into Caldari Carriers how fail is that! Will I ever get it back, of course not, do I need to assign it to something else, nope. I love EVE because you can make mistakes with your path, your training and anything else but you can always rectify the problem with patience and MOAR training. God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster.
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 322	Posted - 2012.01.13 13:41:00 - [26] - Quote Ocih wrote: It might be a good idea for new accounts in thier first 6 months. Some nooblets splash alot of SP around not knowing how the EVE niche system works but even there, adjusting SP is second thought. Most of them figure out they were wrong about EVE and will leave to find a game they will like. I really don't know if an SP reset system would entice them to stay or not. So? How is that a problem? As people already said, it's not like training Mining V prevents you from ever training Large Projectile Turrets. You train something you later find useless? Well train something you want, nobody will stop you. A remap is only needed when going down one path stops you from taking another, which you might want in the future. ...or do you think that having played EVE for 6 months entitles you to instantly be able to use anything that someone else spent 6 months training for?
Winters Chill Valhalla Legion 49	Posted - 2012.01.13 13:41:00 - [27] - Quote I agree but nothing outrageous, maybe, 1 million a month. If that. Or maybe a skill: Informorph redistribution x8 skill? Each level allows you to relocate skill points once per month where skill level = 200,000 points that can be moved.
Planktal Kenshao Industries Galactic Acqisition Specialists 23	Posted - 2012.01.13 13:46:00 - [28] - Quote How about you can only do a skill reset once, ever, not per year, just once. Here sanity, nice sanity.....THWOOK Got the bastard
Abdiel Kavash Paladin Order Fidelas Constans 322	Posted - 2012.01.13 13:47:00 - [29] - Quote Still has the same problem with attributes. Train a crapton of INT/MEM skills, reset them to CHA/PER/WIL, then train the INT/MEM you actually need.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic 9	Posted - 2012.01.13 13:58:00 - [30] - Quote Big no! Eve should remain a game with consequences for decisions. If you want different skills - start training them. Keep character history as something that matters.



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