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Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
   |
Posted - 2007.08.05 13:22:00 -
[1]
Hello everybody,
here i want to show you why sensor dampners are overpowered and why we need some balance there.
1. Remote sensor dampner
I think i dont need to explain how it works. Remote sensor dampner (RSD) reduce your lock range and increase your lock time.
2. Counter: sensor booster
It was proven in numerous posts that one sensor booster dont really help you against remote sensor dampners. It is silly when you fit 3 sensor booster on a battleship and still has a lock range of 20km. The people who thinks that's enough must be thinking we all fly blasterthrons where 20km operating range is enough. An armageddon can shoot up to 45km with pulse lasers, a raven can spam missiles up to 100+km. Forcing people to close range combat even when they fit 3 counter modules is silly.
3. The abuse
Here i want to show you how you can abuse RSD's in its current form.
3.1 EW rigs
With the introduction of EW rigs, CCP made a horrible mistake. You can only fit two T1 rigs on a ship, but it gives you so much bonus like having the dedicated cruiser skill on level 4. And the drawback is -10% shield per rig, with skills even less. This is completely wrong, if i fit for EW i dont care about my shield anyway.
3.2 Damp Hyperion
"Damperion", maxed skills
Ship: Hyperion
Highs: 4x Ions T2, 4x Electrons T2
Mids: MWD, Cap Booster, 3x RSD (phased muons)
Lows: 2x LAR2, DMC2, 2xEANM2, 1600mm RT
Rigs: 2x RSD rigs
Drones: 4x Ogre II
Result: 839 DPS, monster tank, EW effectivness of a Celestis
People claiming that dampening dont help you in close range dont have a clue. They forget the fact that RSD's reduce your scan resolution thus increasing your lock time. You need 1 successfull jam cycle from a blackbird and your opponent is disabled for the next 1-2 minutes. ECM + Damp = WIN.
3.3 Damp Raven
Maxed skills
Ship: Raven
Highs: 6x Siege Missile Launcher II
Mids: feel free to fit them, you have enough room here
Lows: 2x 1600mm RT, DMC2, 2x EANM2
Rigs: 2x RSD rigs
Drones: 5x Hammerhead II
Result: 589 DPS, optimal 100+km, passive armor tank, EW effectivness of a Celestis
If you have someone who can repair you, you will get an awesome EW ship with an operating range of 100km.
3.4 What's wrong with this?
It's imbalanced. These setups combine DPS, Tank and EW in one ship. There is a purpose why CCP made EW ships so weak in regard of tank and DPS. And creating setups which can overcome the weaknesses of EW ships screw up this balance.
4. Solution
I won't give you a solution to this, i will just make some suggestions.
a) Make sensor boosters more effective against RSD's
b) Remove/reduce the scan resolution penalty on RSD's
c) Fix EW rigs
Finally it's how CCP thinks about it. If they dont see a problem here then it was probably a useless post  .
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 13:29:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Avataris
Celestis: Special Ability: 5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret Damage and Remote Sensor Dampener effectiveness per skill level.
Care to show us where those other ships get their damp bonus from?
They are not as effective as a celestis.
Dude read the post, especially the part about the EW rigs.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 13:59:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Zubakis on 05/08/2007 14:02:58
Originally by: n0thing
Big, funny post.
Hyperion with no sensor booster, means anything having sensor booster and is close range, will lock him faster, get into range, and his RSD`s is just a waste of 3 mid slots.
And your also dead from any 2 ranged ships due to no web.
You ever flew what you propose or just made it up in Quickfit?
You probably cant read. RSD's are effective in close range too. You just need a jammer in your gang.
Do yor ever played in gangs? You dont have to fit web/scram on each ship. Just have a buddy who can do it for you.
I would take a Damperion instead of a Celestis if i have the choice. It has DPS+Tank+EW.
EDIT: Another viable fitting for a Damperion.
Highs: 7x350mm Railguns T2, 1 Assault Missile Launcher II
Mids: Cap Booster, Sensor Booster, 3x RSD
Lows,Rigs,Drones: same as in the first post
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 14:18:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Proxay
What drugs are you on, honestly.
RSD on close range ships should always be used in conjunction with an ECM burst
Or simply have a Blackbird in your gang. 
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 14:58:00 -
[5]
Originally by: n0thing
Second setup will die to any long range ship with speed above 1-2km/sec.
Oh and btw, gang setups also feature tackling equipment since the more points/webs you got the more target you can lock at once.
And, RSD`s are having no use at close range, after you lock him, he can damp all he wants. You can kill a lanchesis easily once yr 4-5k within him.
Oh hell, how hard is it to understand? Damp + ECM = WIN
Scenario: You locked me, i'm dampening you. You still lock me. And now here comes my Blackbird and jam you just 1 time. I'm still dampening you. You are waiting the time for the jam cycle (20 seconds) + the time to lock me again (1 minute).
And look here you were disabled for more than a minute. Rinse and repeat.
So tell me please again about ineffectivness of damps in close range.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 15:12:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Tao Han
But if the other pilot also brings a friend?
Doesnt change anything, he is still disabled for a minute. You can see this scenario as a part of large combat.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 15:16:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Aakron
lol another damp thread, seriously why couldnt you post in one of the other 9 threads?
This thread is for discussion, the others are for trolling. 
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 16:02:00 -
[8]
Originally by: madaluap
My hyp has: more dps, a lot more tank and can actually lock targets intime. That plate is the gheyest thing in town. Your explosive resist is very low and you only use 2 damagetypes. Also you do realise you spend 36 mil on damps and 30 mil on rigs? Thats a 66 mil investment for only those 3 meds. Celestis + setup = 8-10 mil.
This is what i (and i think other people aswell) play eve for... tactics. You just outsmarted your opponent, because you dedicated 2 gangmembers for pure EW role, no damage, no tank. Just the EW.
Its a low-dps crap bs. Yes you can use your uberawesome 3-4 damps setup, but it just another tactic, its not overpowered.
I dont care about your hype and what it can do. You can switch the plate to explosive hardner if you prefer it, where is the problem? You can switch to berserkers and deal 3 damagetypes, where is the problem? People who want to win dont care about isk 
And now compare my Damperion with your Celestis:
My Damperion deals 839 DPS. What deals your Celestis? 100?
My Damperion can tank. What can you tank with your Celestis? 1 missile of a Raven?
I can sit in the middle of a battle and fight, you will have to run or die, if someone attacks you.
839 DPS is low? Show me another EW ship, which can do more.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 16:16:00 -
[9]
Originally by: n0thing
Tbh, increasing Sensor Boosters power will only lead to less solo as more camps will feature not only bubbles but also sensor boosted inties.
I think it's possible to work on stacking formula and how they stack with RSD's. You wont probably need to change the stats of a sensor booster. But i could be wrong.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 18:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Stelteck
Yes, i want a way to be near immune to damper if i decide to use enough med slot to counter the damp effect.
It is already the case for ECM. If i put 3/4 ECCM on my battleship, i'am quite immune to ECM.
Of course, i have a lot of mid slots used and it create fitting problems for the others purposes of the battleship.(Such as fighting).
it is not a surprising request. Does ECCM kill ECM ? No, because many people do not use them in order to fit others tools.
It will be the same for anti-Damp ECCM.
In fact, it is the fact that you are against that that is a surprise for me. you want a module without any possible counter ?
Stelteck.
Yes, so true. By fitting more ECCM my protection against ECM becomes more and more better. Fitting more sensor boosters doesnt really help you at all.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 20:37:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Hannobaal
There's countering a module and there's rendering it completely ineffective. Those are completely different things.
If a ship like the Arazu/Lachesis with expensive equipment and high skill could not even manage to bring a single battleship out of sniping range (not shutting it down but just bringing it out of sniping range) and you had a choice between flying that ship and flying a battleship in a fleet battle - what possible reasons would you have to pick the Ewar ship over the battleship to fly in a fleet battle? None whatsoever.
When i fit 4 ECCM modules on a battleship, it will make your ECM completely ineffective. When i fit 4 sensor boosters, you are still very effective with your RSD's.
You dont need a dedicated ship to work with them, this is a big problem. I showed in my posts how effective you can be in close range combat with non-dedicated ship. Another poster showed you that you dont need an "expensive" dedicated ship to disable sniper fleets, a Scorpion can do that too.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.05 23:45:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Zubakis on 05/08/2007 23:46:31
Originally by: achoura
"I dont care about your hype and what it can do." says it all.
No offence m8 but if you're thick enough to try and fly any of those things solo you deserve to die (might explain why you're so miffed too) and in a gang a dedicated damp ship will be more effective hands down, oh wait thats what you're trying to stop 
You should read the whole post. Solo? Who said something about soloing? And show me pls, how your Celestis (dedicated damp ship) is more effective than my Damperion.
I'm not trying to nerf dedicated EW ships, they are fine. They have low DPS, weak tanks, but are strong at EW. But being able to create setups with high DPS, strong tanks and EW effectivness of a dedicated EW ship screams for balance.
-- Zuba |
Zubakis
Bambooule
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
|
Posted - 2007.08.09 16:09:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Luke Lamarr
Looking at this data quickly, you have the impression that a single SB can efficiently counter a single RSD, which is not the case. I took a quick look at Ryysa's guide, and figured that using an RSD II on a ship with a SB II running actually cripples your locking range and scan res by (1-(1.6*0.52))=16,8%
Do you realise, that with better skills it's not more 16.8% ?
Unspecced ship, max skills: (1-(1.6*0.39))=37.6%
Unspecced ship, 2 rigs, max skills: (1-(1.6*0.32))=48.8%
Specced ship, max skills: (1-(1.6*0.29))=53.6%
Quote:
And please don't compare the efficiency of an RSD between a fully-rigged unspecialised ship and an unrigged specialised ship
Why not? You can achieve a quite good performance on a unspecced ship, try it out. You can create setups, which by far out-DPS, outtank any EW ship . And you can do a lot of EW-whoring .
-- Zuba |
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