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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:06:00 -
[1]
Last night while trying to fall asleep my mind wandered and while it wandered I realized something.
Assault ships are the only T2 ships in the game that require a per level resistance bonus to be on par with other T2 ships' resistances.
Granted that on a per design basis assault and heavy assault ships have higher base resistances than, for example, covert ops or recon. However the ishtar and the ishkur have the exact same shield and armor resistances and the ishkur needs a per level bonus in order to achieve that while the ishtar doesn't.
Does anyone know why assault ships are designed to have base shield/armor resistances without their ship handling bonus and no other T2 (combat) ship has this requirement?
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense that assault ships are the only T2 combat ships that, without ship handling bonuses, have the exact same resistances as their T1 counterparts.
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Grif Oberwald
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:18:00 -
[2]
It apears to be a holding bonus - i.e. takes a slot of a T2 ships bonus - one day it might be replaced with something better, although hell might freeze over first..........
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Acinonyx Jubatus
International Multi-Player Consortium
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:22:00 -
[3]
AFs are not the only ones with the bonus like such...
Transports, also have this issue :/ Then again you could argue that transports have totally useless bonuses to begin with, nowadays atleast.
Deepspace one sseem ok in that they're tank based. But blockades need something else entirely, like agility or increase in built in wcs.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:34:00 -
[4]
The last dev statement I recall on it was along the lines of "...a real fourth bonus would be too powerful as it stands." (Wording very much paraphrased.)
I don't really agree, but that's what I remember about it.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Cpt Branko
Guardian Heroes
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Posted - 2007.08.10 16:36:00 -
[5]
Yes, well - AFs need a real fourth bonus in the same way HACs do to give them a bit of extra edge in combat. Right now, they're preety much only flown by enthusiasts, because of the ISK / usefulness ratio which is one of the worse in game - probably several orders of magnitude worse then T1 cruisers, for example.
Considering a (standard T2/named* & unrigged) properly fitted AF will cost in the 20-25M range, their performance leaves a lot to be desired. They're very fun to fly, though.
I'd like also a mass decrease in the 10-20% region (as they're even 60% heavier then the frigs they're based on in some cases), but a fourth bonus is really necessary in order for them to have a better cost / performance ratio.
*most of them can't really be fully T2 fitted, so you fit (second) best named where you can to save CPU.
 Originally by: Tsanse Kinske
The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.08.10 17:20:00 -
[6]
Aye, when reviewing my post to make corrections I missed the first un-(combat)'ed instance of T2.
I still stand by my statement that they're the only T2 combat ships that need a ship handling bonus to get more than base resistances.
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Audelia Boozebandit
Gallente
Dragonian Freelancers Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.10 17:58:00 -
[7]
If AF's had a per-level bonus to speed that would be acceptable to me (of course this is from a Gallente AF viewpoint, not sure on max speed for other frigs). I do agree though, AF's aren't very efficient purchases.
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Divideby0
Gallente
Amalgamated Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.10 18:30:00 -
[8]
AF's are much slower than their t1 counterparts. But they are much more durable and capable of dealing a lot more DPS than their T1 counterparts.
It wasn't until last night that i started to realize what I think is their true purpose. I was flying "Gone Berserk Level 2" in my Enyo. I did ok against the hoards of frigates. I had to do a lot of running back in fourth which was annoying because of my limited range and speed.
However, the Enyo really shined against the three cruisers at the end. I closed in quickly, and took very little damage due to both armor resists and low sig radius (37 as opposed to the 44 of the incursus). 4 blaster + a missile launcher really made short work of those cruisers.
I got a little off topic, but I think that opens up what CCP had in mind when they made the AF.
Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves lowsec on his own, or the "PvPer" who attacks an unarmed ship?
I support the f |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.08.10 19:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Divideby0
AF's are much slower than their t1 counterparts. But they are much more durable and capable of dealing a lot more DPS than their T1 counterparts.
It wasn't until last night that i started to realize what I think is their true purpose. I was flying "Gone Berserk Level 2" in my Enyo. I did ok against the hoards of frigates. I had to do a lot of running back in fourth which was annoying because of my limited range and speed.
However, the Enyo really shined against the three cruisers at the end. I closed in quickly, and took very little damage due to both armor resists and low sig radius (37 as opposed to the 44 of the incursus). 4 blaster + a missile launcher really made short work of those cruisers.
I got a little off topic, but I think that opens up what CCP had in mind when they made the AF.
L2 Missions?  They did an admirable job of it then, I must say. 
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Saidar Katep
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Posted - 2007.08.10 19:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Acinonyx Jubatus
AFs are not the only ones with the bonus like such...
Transports, also have this issue :/ Then again you could argue that transports have totally useless bonuses to begin with, nowadays atleast.
Deepspace one sseem ok in that they're tank based. But blockades need something else entirely, like agility or increase in built in wcs.
Hell, prob overpowered here, but why not take away the built in WCS and instead make it the only ship in the game immune to a warp bubble? (Talking about blockade runners ofc)
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Fafnir Drake
Gallente
Boob Heads
Haud Terminus
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Posted - 2007.08.10 19:42:00 -
[11]
^ bad alt.
------
"A wise man once told me never to argue with an idiot. They will bring you down to their level, and then beat you with experience." |
Divideby0
Gallente
Amalgamated Industries
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Posted - 2007.08.10 19:53:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Divideby0 on 10/08/2007 20:03:37
Not level 2 missions per se, but an anti-cruiser ship.
Its smaller sig and higer resists help tank against cruiser sized guns/missiles (i was taking about 8 damage per each heavy missile). You don't need speed against a cruiser like you would to catch a frigate.
In the kill mission guides, I see a lot of people taking on Level 3s in AFs. This seems to make sense since they have many more cruisers than L2s. I might eventually do this. but I haven't yet the support skills.
EDIT: to add this this. I flew with some buddies on a Level4 Angel extravaganza. My enyo was pretty much useless. I could not catch the interceptors. The BC were popped before i got to them and the I could not dent the Machiels.
Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves lowsec on his own, or the "PvPer" who attacks an unarmed ship?
I support the f |
Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.08.10 20:32:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Divideby0
Edited by: Divideby0 on 10/08/2007 20:03:37
Not level 2 missions per se, but an anti-cruiser ship.
Its smaller sig and higer resists help tank against cruiser sized guns/missiles (i was taking about 8 damage per each heavy missile). You don't need speed against a cruiser like you would to catch a frigate.
In the kill mission guides, I see a lot of people taking on Level 3s in AFs. This seems to make sense since they have many more cruisers than L2s. I might eventually do this. but I haven't yet the support skills.
It's a nice theory, but Cruisers in missions hardly bear any resemblence to those in the hands of players. Unfortunately, those tend to have webbers, drones, and nos (changing to neuts) all of which eat up AFs pretty quick.
And even in L3 missions with lots of cruiser types, BC hulls are usually better than AFs for raw kills/second. The latter can hold their own though, have their own small advantages, and are a lot of fun.
* * *
In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Malcanis
High4Life
Curse Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.10 20:37:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Yes, well - AFs need a real fourth bonus in the same way HACs do to give them a bit of extra edge in combat. Right now, they're preety much only flown by enthusiasts, because of the ISK / usefulness ratio which is one of the worse in game - probably several orders of magnitude worse then T1 cruisers, for example.
Considering a (standard T2/named* & unrigged) properly fitted AF will cost in the 20-25M range, their performance leaves a lot to be desired. They're very fun to fly, though.
I'd like also a mass decrease in the 10-20% region (as they're even 60% heavier then the frigs they're based on in some cases), but a fourth bonus is really necessary in order for them to have a better cost / performance ratio.
*most of them can't really be fully T2 fitted, so you fit (second) best named where you can to save CPU.
/signed
My Harpy is kinda fun, but it would be *useful* if it was as agile as the Merlin it's supposedly based on.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.08.10 23:08:00 -
[15]
You know it annoys me too, but I don't ask for any special bonus, All I want for the frigate bonus is the same that their original ships had.
All AF's get inherent resists as they have now then we give them this.
Retribution and Vengeance: 5% bonus to armor resistances per level.
Hawk and Harpy: 5% bonus to shield resistances (Note that only the Hawk has its other frigate skill not from the original merlin bonus's)
Enyo and Ishkur: 10% bonus to Small Hybrid Turret falloff
Jaguar and Wolf: 7.5% bonus to tracking per level.
Not one of the bonuses overlap and I for one would love the changes. CCP may think the AF's are too powerful but they are twice the cost of most cruisers so shouldn't they do a better job?
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Shereza
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Posted - 2007.08.11 01:07:00 -
[16]
While ideally I would agree that a ship that costs as much or more than a small cruiser should be at least as good if not better than the cruiser consider this.
You can get into 1/10 and 2/10 complexes with an assault ship but not a cruiser.
It's a minor point in the grand scheme of things, but it is a worthwhile point that an assault ship can put cruiser-like firepower into areas that cruisers can't get into no matter how few those areas are.
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Nian Banks
Minmatar
Berserkers of Aesir
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Posted - 2007.08.11 08:21:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Shereza
While ideally I would agree that a ship that costs as much or more than a small cruiser should be at least as good if not better than the cruiser consider this.
You can get into 1/10 and 2/10 complexes with an assault ship but not a cruiser.
It's a minor point in the grand scheme of things, but it is a worthwhile point that an assault ship can put cruiser-like firepower into areas that cruisers can't get into no matter how few those areas are.
Thats kinda a moot point, a HAC can go into places that nothing larger than a cruiser can go in, same for a CS. There are several BC or smaller complexes that my lil CS wrecks havoc in.
Realy theres no good reason for CCP to do what they have done. The AF's need that little love.
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Paulson
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Posted - 2007.08.11 09:57:00 -
[18]
/Signed
I'll agree that Assualt Ships need something done to them. Not a Huge change mind because they are very fun as they are, Just enough to make them a bit more Viable for their cost.
A slightly higher Agility then they currently have (but still less than their Tech 1 Counterpart to represent the better tank) and a genuine 4th Bonus is all we ask.
I for one love my harpy as it does everything I want it to do for completing exploration sites.
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