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Rev 2.3 Min Compression - It NEEDS its own thread

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Diogenes Diaspora	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:17:00 - [1] Mods, this is one of the biggest changes in recent years to the 0.0 game and it absolutely REQUIRES its own thread. Please do not lock. ------------ http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=492 This is sure to cause an uproar as soon as its effects are digested and the implications understood by the 0.0 playerbase. While this may be seen as a market correction by the EvE developers, what it will actually be is a catastrophic blow to fast paced alliance-scale fleet warfare. The low end mineral shortage resulting from these proposed changes will require alliance level logistics efforts on the scale of POS maintenance and upkeep - and this, only to alleviate the shortages, not completely replace them. I'll grant the developer his example of the Jump Portal Generator - this module, and others like it, certainly need to be balanced. But I am unconvinced that modules like the Passive Targeter or Explosive Hardener are out of tune - they require dedicated production characters, empire logistics, and time. One of the most awe-inspiring attractions of EvE are its massive player struggles, culminating in truly epic fleet battles - hundreds upon hundreds of ships, from Frigates to Battleships to Dreadnoughts, almost all of which are produced locally by the Alliances involved. The proposed total elimination of mineral compression will change the way 0.0 wars are fought. They will be slower paced, with combat losses taking much longer to replace and making EvE a less dynamic environment. Nightly 25+ jump freighter runs from Empire to the front lines of Alliance wars are no ones idea of fun. Is this really what CCP wants?
Diogenes Diaspora	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:23:00 - [2] The Dev Blog discussion thread linked by the moderator in the locked thread does not even reference these changes in its title. This is a monumental change that REQUIRES healthy feedback and discussion by the playerbase.
Diogenes Diaspora	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:32:00 - [3] Bump again, mods it'd be swell if you stopped hiding this thread. If you don't like this thread, put up your own but make sure to put "PARADIGM SHIFT IN 0.0 PRODUCTION/WARFARE DISCUSSION" in the subject.
Blauer Morgrengau	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:37:00 - [4] Originally by: Diogenes Diaspora Bump again, mods it'd be swell if you stopped hiding this thread. If you don't like this thread, put up your own but make sure to put "PARADIGM SHIFT IN 0.0 PRODUCTION/WARFARE DISCUSSION" in the subject. They pulled the same crap with the carrier nerf. Don't bother arguing against it, because CCP simply aren't interested.
Tetsujin GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:46:00 - [5] terrible idea
WhitePhantom Gallente Edenists	Posted - 2007.08.12 00:51:00 - [6] Originally by: Diogenes Diaspora Bump again, mods it'd be swell if you stopped hiding this thread. If you don't like this thread, put up your own but make sure to put "PARADIGM SHIFT IN 0.0 PRODUCTION/WARFARE DISCUSSION" in the subject. The moderators are not "hiding" your thread people are replying to other threads and the because nobody is replying to yours it being pushed down the list of threads. You sound really silly trying to claim anything other then nobody replying to your thread is the cause of this thread being pushed down.
mazzilliu Caldari Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:19:00 - [7] nerfing mineral compression is ********.
Diogenes Diaspora	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:27:00 - [8] Originally by: WhitePhantom Originally by: Diogenes Diaspora Bump again, mods it'd be swell if you stopped hiding this thread. If you don't like this thread, put up your own but make sure to put "PARADIGM SHIFT IN 0.0 PRODUCTION/WARFARE DISCUSSION" in the subject. The moderators are not "hiding" your thread people are replying to other threads and the because nobody is replying to yours it being pushed down the list of threads. You sound really silly trying to claim anything other then nobody replying to your thread is the cause of this thread being pushed down. Not to get into a flame war with you, but this thread was being moved / hidden - It dissappeared off the front page twice in 5 minutes while other posts stayed in the same position with the same number of replies. Anyway, back to the discussion. As news of this spreads and is digested I predict a lot of upset players.
Terrist	Posted - 2007.08.12 01:54:00 - [9] What's the point of a change like this? It just makes this game more boring and more unfun. I'm really baffled about adding a change like this, when at the same time you are fighting the exactly same problem of logistics tedium by introducing jump bridges.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:01:00 - [10] Why again is this going to be a problem, when the ORE-Cap will become available to do the compression? _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Terrist	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:09:00 - [11] That ship compresses unrefined ore and not minerals. I highly doubt many alliances have a mining section so large that it can make up for the loss in low-end minerals due to this change. Not to mention that if this change goes in at the same time as the new cap ship is introduced, it will still be months before you will see any of them on the market. Hell we don't even know that much about the specifics of what sort of efficiency the capship operates with to comment on whether it creates a viable alternative to low-end importing from empire.
Fun Bunny	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:22:00 - [12] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Why again is this going to be a problem, when the ORE-Cap will become available to do the compression? Look at its stats and how it will work before you even think about speaking again.
Selene Le'Cotiere Amarr I-Omniscient-I	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:34:00 - [13] Well, going by the Blog, the Devs seem to have recognized the current situation as an unintended feature. On another note, I can foresee this perhaps cutting down on some blobbing, if peoples have to start thinking about the resources they throw on the field. As in, ships won't be quite so disposable unless and Alliance/Corp has a real strong industrial backbone, which the new ORE-Cap could provide. _________ "You will be a drone in the hive of an insane Queen, existing solely to provide the ship with needs, links in a chain too complicated for you to understand." - Story: Hands of a Killer
Stevobob Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:39:00 - [14] Edited by: Stevobob on 12/08/2007 02:39:52 Intended or not, it makes life infinitely easier for logistics and production people. This will slow down EVERYTHING, as production affects everything. Taking out "unintended feature" will do much, much more harm than good. If "Need for Speed" is the current CCP initiative/motto, they should put some serious time into finding an alternative to compression, if this "fix" does go through.
Yuki Nagato GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:39:00 - [15] Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Well, going by the Blog, the Devs seem to have recognized the current situation as an unintended feature. On another note, I can foresee this perhaps cutting down on some blobbing, if peoples have to start thinking about the resources they throw on the field. As in, ships won't be quite so disposable unless and Alliance/Corp has a real strong industrial backbone, which the new ORE-Cap could provide. The new ORE capital will not help importing lowends to 0.0, and the demand will NOT go down. People will just have to find more boring, tedious ways of getting lowends into 0.0. And never use the term 'blobbing' ever again. God forbid an alliance bring people who want to fight to a warzone.
Jaden Icer Gallente Icerian Technologies	Posted - 2007.08.12 02:54:00 - [16] Nerfing mineral compression is a good thing. It doesn't make sense that you can take 400,000 m/3 of mineral and pack it into 1000 m/3 of module. If its going to change the face of 0.0 warfare, then good. The face of 0.0 warfare needs to change. All those carebears all the big bad boys of 0.0 laugh at, guess what? You're gonna need carebear corps to keep you in ships. Maybe this will actually make people who are nomad roaming pirates of 0.0 to settle down and take control of small areas so their logistic corps can do their thing.
Bund GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:13:00 - [17] Originally by: Jaden Icer Nerfing mineral compression is a good thing. It doesn't make sense that you can take 400,000 m/3 of mineral and pack it into 1000 m/3 of module. If its going to change the face of 0.0 warfare, then good. The face of 0.0 warfare needs to change. All those carebears all the big bad boys of 0.0 laugh at, guess what? You're gonna need carebear corps to keep you in ships. Maybe this will actually make people who are nomad roaming pirates of 0.0 to settle down and take control of small areas so their logistic corps can do their thing. Since this thread is about the effect of this on 0.0, and since you clearly have no concept how 0.0 actually works, perhaps this space should be freed up for feedback from people who actually understand what is being discussed.
UnitedStatesOfAmerica	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:14:00 - [18] Originally by: Jaden Icer It doesn't make sense that you can take 400,000 m/3 of mineral and pack it into 1000 m/3 of module Cause internet spaceship games have to make sense. I wonder how a wrap drive works, if I remember my physic class right it would have to compress the space infront of you, making it smaller while behind you it would make space bigger. Well if we no longer can make things smaller, might as well take the wrap drive out and change eve online from a game to a job.
Stevobob Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:17:00 - [19] Originally by: Jaden Icer Nerfing mineral compression is a good thing. It doesn't make sense that you can take 400,000 m/3 of mineral and pack it into 1000 m/3 of module. If its going to change the face of 0.0 warfare, then good. The face of 0.0 warfare needs to change. All those carebears all the big bad boys of 0.0 laugh at, guess what? You're gonna need carebear corps to keep you in ships. Maybe this will actually make people who are nomad roaming pirates of 0.0 to settle down and take control of small areas so their logistic corps can do their thing. Right now carebears are doing exactly what they want to do: making money in the safety of hisec. Compression of minerals allows them to STAY in hisec, and for us big bad 0.0 corps to fly up to empire, buy a ton of minerals, compress em, move em out to 0.0 and make cheap ships to supply the troops. Take away compression and you either stick the carebears in 0.0 (might work in some cases, but carebears have that name for a reason) or...the 0.0 alliances mine their own ore, drastically reducing the demand in empire and said carebears' profits plummet. Either way, the prices of stuff in 0.0 will be pushed even higher which really sucks ass.
Mr Broker Station Gremlings	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:18:00 - [20] Edited by: Mr Broker on 12/08/2007 03:18:13 Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere As in, ships won't be quite so disposable unless and Alliance/Corp has a real strong industrial backbone or in some alliance's case where they have NPC stations right next to their player stations with npc shuttle sell orders they can refine and get the base minerals at better than empire prices. some people just are so darn lucky
Proasmae	Posted - 2007.08.12 03:43:00 - [21] CCP's recent changes, namely this and the NOS nerf, are really starting to remind me of the Star Wars Galaxies dev team in its decline. The dev team plows ahead with horrible changes because they're more interested in forcing players to play by their "Vision" of how the game should work, and ignore the realities of how the game is being played and has been for a very long time. The way mineral importation is handled could well do with some changes, but not such a broad sweeping one that obviously results for a basic misunderstanding of how EVE operates in 0.0. The rorqual is not going to provide a viable alternative to mineral compression. Even if it eventually mitigates at least some of this sweeping change, it will take months to do so. To push the compression change as it is to live is a bad idea, doubly so if you're doing so when the rorqual BP is first seeded.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:03:00 - [22] The reproccessing nerf is bothering me as well. I'm not a 0.0 alliance member or anything, but I build pretty much everything I use myself. I get the minerals from reprocessing loot from missoins, so this is effectivly a nerf to the way I do industry too.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:15:00 - [23] Originally by: Yuki Nagato Originally by: Selene Le'Cotiere Well, going by the Blog, the Devs seem to have recognized the current situation as an unintended feature. On another note, I can foresee this perhaps cutting down on some blobbing, if peoples have to start thinking about the resources they throw on the field. As in, ships won't be quite so disposable unless and Alliance/Corp has a real strong industrial backbone, which the new ORE-Cap could provide. The new ORE capital will not help importing lowends to 0.0, and the demand will NOT go down. People will just have to find more boring, tedious ways of getting lowends into 0.0. And never use the term 'blobbing' ever again. God forbid an alliance bring people who want to fight to a warzone. how will it not help... it never said that the ORE cap ship has to carry the compressed ore... ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: Why didn't we use them 80 man-years to fix bugs? Well, that's simple. We can't. These are visual ar
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.12 05:18:00 - [24] like the drake nerf... like the nano nerf... this will be no different... In 3-4 months someone will whine that the new ORE compression is overpowered and makes getting minerals to easy... and the best part is none of these were or will ever be berfs! yay for people not understanding how games work. nerf equals balancing becuase something changes. all three of these changes were CCP going.. opps we made a mistake... time to fix it. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: Why didn't we use them 80 man-years to fix bugs? Well, that's simple. We can't. These are visual ar
Krontos Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:04:00 - [25] I hadn't realized how crazy the Jump Bridge modules were for mineral compression, and it sounds to me like they could, in fact, use rebalancing. However, killing the entire mineral compression industry seems a tad uncalled for. Even assuming that Rorquals are available at a reasonable price the day after the patch, where on earth will people get the ore to keep the wheels of industry turning? While the hope is that Macrominers will eventually pick up the slack, obtaining ore in bulk will probably be a tedious process of buy orders for ore and freightering. I don't suppose you'll be NPC seeding veldspar ore so that whenever Rorquals become available we can use them to move trit without micromanaging buy orders across several regions? I realize that driving up ship prices in 0.0, adding a lot of administrative overhead for producers, and encouraging macro-mining is intentional, I fail to see how it improves the game.
Fanzen GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.12 08:30:00 - [26] Everyone keeps bringing up the Jump Portal Generator - but it seems that nobody really knows what they are talking about. First of all, the ME research time on a JPG is 9 days. To get it to near lossless ME25 would take 235 days. Now I don't doubt that people are in fact running research right now to get near lossless JPG bpos. But thats a massive time and cost commitment. It's not like you stop by Jita and get your perfect 400:1 compression BPO. In it's current form, most build the JPG from less than perfect BPOs sucking up waste in construction. Then more waste to less than perfect refines, most 0.0 stations can only do about 96% with maxed skills, then about 10% refine tax. So 5% build waste, 5% refine waste, 10% refine tax. Even as it is now, most people end up losing about 10-20% of the minerals they compress. Adding another 20% on top of that is going to hurt everyone in 0.0. No I don't think it'll be the end of fleets. But it will make all of us 20% poorer. This is a change that will not make anyone richer. This change will bring nothing but headaches to current 0.0 builders, and add 20% more time to ratting/mining or whatever you do to make isk to anyone living in 0.0 to make ends meet. It's odd that CCP has been saying that they want more people living in 0.0 but yet seem dedicated to making 0.0 life harder. I admit, the Cyno Gens and Jump Bridges are a step in the right direction; but even taking those into consideration, with the mineral compression change and the cyno jammer, this feels like one step forward two steps back as far as life in 0.0 goes.
true enjoyment	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:11:00 - [27] It should be noted that this won't be the end of fleets in 0.0 - per-mineral, frigates are much more effective than battleships. You can make over 200 frigates from the minerals required from one battleship, so 0.0 warfare may simply devolve into blobbing tactics once again.
ElrondMD The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.08.12 09:25:00 - [28] If you make the supply chain for ships harder, all it means is people will be less likely inclined to engage when losses are expected. This wont stop a blob, a blob is normally formed to reduce the chance of losing parts of the fleet, completely swamp the enemy and you hold the field. CCP must think motherships are too cheap, get ready for the 45billion average guys, without compression alot of producers will be unable to continue at their current rate and everyones overhead will go up dramatically.
Jonathon Silence	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:02:00 - [29] The change I see happening here is as follows. The 'price' of lowends will not change, what will change is the process of getting the low ends to empire. Currently this is done by shipping out compressed modules. In the future what will happen is that instead of buy the so called 'compression modules' they will either buy the compressed ore or the raw ore and compress it themselves and then ship that ... once the compressed or is in 0.0 it will be refined just like any other ore type returning the required minerals. No it will not be as 'efficient' as the compression modules but it will still be usable. One side effect it that the value of tritanium will not drop but the available amount will, as 0.0 corps will be interested in Veldspar and compressed veldspar, not tritanium
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:06:00 - [30] Originally by: Stevobob Originally by: Jaden Icer Nerfing mineral compression is a good thing. It doesn't make sense that you can take 400,000 m/3 of mineral and pack it into 1000 m/3 of module. If its going to change the face of 0.0 warfare, then good. The face of 0.0 warfare needs to change. All those carebears all the big bad boys of 0.0 laugh at, guess what? You're gonna need carebear corps to keep you in ships. Maybe this will actually make people who are nomad roaming pirates of 0.0 to settle down and take control of small areas so their logistic corps can do their thing. Right now carebears are doing exactly what they want to do: making money in the safety of hisec. Compression of minerals allows them to STAY in hisec, and for us big bad 0.0 corps to fly up to empire, buy a ton of minerals, compress em, move em out to 0.0 and make cheap ships to supply the troops. Take away compression and you either stick the carebears in 0.0 (might work in some cases, but carebears have that name for a reason) or...the 0.0 alliances mine their own ore, drastically reducing the demand in empire and said carebears' profits plummet. Either way, the prices of stuff in 0.0 will be pushed even higher which really sucks ass. Notice something here? A serious % of the miners in high sec seem to be macro (or so most macro hunters postulate, stangely I have never seen a macro operation). So who will be hurt if 0.0 alliances reduce buy orders for minerals in high sec? Macro miners. Maybe CCP has some extra motive for its choice?

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