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Thermodynamics - Nos was a perpetual motion machine.

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 2 post(s)
Arthur Frayn	Posted - 2007.08.12 11:27:00 - [1] From a physics point of view, the nos nerf makes perfect sense. This is specifically to do with entropy and energy exchange. Here is a wikipedia summary of what entropy is/means: Quote: In physics, entropy is a measure of the unavailability of a systemÆs energy to do work. Entropy is central to the second law of thermodynamics and the combined law of thermodynamics, which deal with physical processes and whether they occur spontaneously. Spontaneous changes tend to smooth out differences in temperature, pressure, density, and chemical potential that may exist in a system, and entropy is thus a measure of how far this smoothing-out process has progressed. There is a particular explanation of thermodynamics in the article which I think applies here: Quote: It is impossible to transfer heat from a cold to a hot reservoir without at the same time converting a certain amount of work to heat. Heat is energy, plain and simple. It's the raw power from the fusion/antimatter/gravimetric reactors in Eve ships, converted into electrical energy for the capacitor. So I'll paraphrase the previous quote as it applies to capacitor and nos: It is impossible to transfer energy from a source with less energy to a reservoir with greater energy without expending energy in the process. There is always a cost in heat or energy when transferring energy from one place to another, if the source has less initial energy than the destination. So unless my understanding of physics is way off, the nerf makes perfect sense. If anyone feels like discussing this from a scientific standpoint rather than a whine about gameplay, please feel free.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:15:00 - [2] But please think about the Curse Alts... They were created to fly this ~~overpowered~~ wonderfull ~~solopwnmobile~~ ship, and now they are left out in the cold! Oh this world is now much more ~~balanced~~ cruel to them, and they were so ~~lazy~~ eager to fly the Curse. No ~~Nos-Mobile~~ hope is left now, what should they do? I ~~laugh~~ feel with them... And from a scientific viewpoint you are ~~boring me to death~~ presented some interesting aspects. ________________ Kali 3.0 Patchnotes: Amarr Oompf! ~~-Armageddon: +1 Missile Slot~~ -Omen: Autocannon RoF Bonus -Apocalypse: 5% Mining Bonus ~~-Zealot: +10% more golden hull~~
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.08.12 12:32:00 - [3] I was always of the opinion that nos should cost cap to activate, but return more than it spent. That way your net cap gain would be effected by your energy emissions skill level, and it wouldn't be such a set it and forget it module. But what CCP chose works too ----- Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers \| Eve GUI Tweaks
Doctor Dre	Posted - 2007.08.19 06:37:00 - [4] I couldnt help myself Looking at a 1400mm artillery round's stats, there is no way it has a mass of one kilogram. Based on somewhat present-day munitions information, I'll say the Titanium Sabot L charge should weigh closer to 210kg each. Using computations by smart people through history: a 14 meter object, weighing 210kg, traveling at 48,000 meters/sec (optimal range of 1400mm howitzer artillery II, and you see the hit or miss the second you pull the trigger), has an impact force of nearly 18 million kg. Keep in mind those are calculations built in an environment with an atmosphere, which causes decay of impact force over time and distance. Also, these calculations do not take into the factor of muzzle velocities, currently only represented in the game by missiles. So physics denies the fact these forces would be repelled by any man-made hardened material. It's a game dude
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong Namtz'aar k'in	Posted - 2007.08.19 06:59:00 - [5] the cruse is better post patch. ----------------------------------- I'm working my way through college target CCP Quote: Why didn't we use them 80 man-years to fix bugs? Well, that's simple. We can't. These are visual ar
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.08.19 10:30:00 - [6] First, you are confusing heat (cold vs hot) with electricity (EVE ship capacitors). Second, refrigerators and air conditioning. Draw heat from a cold space, make the hot space a lot hotter. The "pre-nerf" NOS was kind of like a refrigerator for capacitors ("inside/cold" being the enemy ship, "outside/hot" being your own ship), you just couldn't see what the hell got used up in the process. By that logic, you should have gotten more capacitor as what you just extracted from the enemy, but use up something in the process... problem was, NOS had no charges to use up, and the only thing that "gets used up" normally in a ship except charges is the capacitor... so, meh, it made sense somewhat. Of course, it makes a lot more sense now, but still, no reason to cite thermodynamics in this particular case. _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:37:00 - [7] What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch?

xOm3gAx Caldari Stain of Mind	Posted - 2007.08.19 11:40:00 - [8] Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? BAH beat me to it =( ----------- "Mercinaries never die, we just go to hell to regroup." -xOm3gAx '99
Admus Mobius Construct Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.19 14:31:00 - [9] Originally by: Doctor Dre I couldnt help myself Looking at a 1400mm artillery round's stats, there is no way it has a mass of one kilogram. Based on somewhat present-day munitions information, I'll say the Titanium Sabot L charge should weigh closer to 210kg each. Using computations by smart people through history: a 14 meter object, weighing 210kg, traveling at 48,000 meters/sec (optimal range of 1400mm howitzer artillery II, and you see the hit or miss the second you pull the trigger), has an impact force of nearly 18 million kg. Keep in mind those are calculations built in an environment with an atmosphere, which causes decay of impact force over time and distance. Also, these calculations do not take into the factor of muzzle velocities, currently only represented in the game by missiles. So physics denies the fact these forces would be repelled by any man-made hardened material. It's a game dude Slap! Take a look at your units, man! 1400mm is 1.4 metres, I'm afraid. Unless you're regarding the length of the shell, in which case I have no idea where you got that number from. Force is not measured in kilograms, although you might make a case that it is an equivalent force to the weight of 18 million kg under earth's surface gravity. But that's just silly. ---------------------------------------------------------- "Villains always have antidotes. They're funny that way."
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.08.19 19:35:00 - [10] Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? Assuming the water is kept at around 4 degrees Celsius in storage, and you need it at 100 Celsius for coffee-making... 96 grades * 200 grams * 4.18600 joule/gram/grade / 2 gigawatt = 40.1856 microseconds That's one FAST coffee machine if you ask me _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2007.08.19 20:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? Assuming the water is kept at around 4 degrees Celsius in storage, and you need it at 100 Celsius for coffee-making... 96 grades * 200 grams * 4.18600 joule/gram/grade / 2 gigawatt = 40.1856 microseconds That's one FAST coffee machine if you ask me See, this is what I like - posts with numbers and stuff. +10 points

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.08.19 21:45:00 - [12] Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Akita T Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? Assuming the water is kept at around 4 degrees Celsius in storage, and you need it at 100 Celsius for coffee-making... 96 grades * 200 grams * 4.18600 joule/gram/grade / 2 gigawatt = 40.1856 microseconds That's one FAST coffee machine if you ask me See, this is what I like - posts with numbers and stuff. +10 points Your coffee is too small. If it's less than a pint, it's no good :)
Dialorah	Posted - 2007.08.20 00:11:00 - [13] Originally by: James Lyrus Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Akita T Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? Assuming the water is kept at around 4 degrees Celsius in storage, and you need it at 100 Celsius for coffee-making... 96 grades * 200 grams * 4.18600 joule/gram/grade / 2 gigawatt = 40.1856 microseconds That's one FAST coffee machine if you ask me See, this is what I like - posts with numbers and stuff. +10 points Your coffee is too small. If it's less than a pint, it's no good :) 1 pint = 568 ml 2 gigawatts / (96 * 568 * 4.18600) = 8762.16 pints of coffee per second According to wikipedia, the average coffee consumption is 3.2 cups per day. 1 day = 24 hours = 1440 minutes = 86400 seconds 86400 * 8762.16 = 757050665.12 cups per day, / 3.2 cups per person = 236578333 person's supply of coffee. Where can we go from here... Maximum range of a T1 heavy nos is 21km, average height of a human male is about 178cm, female about 163, so an average of 170.5 so the range of a heavy nos is 21000/1.705 = 12317 persons high. The nos is making enough coffee for 236578333 people, so if we had a chain of these people the length nos's max range, it would be 12317 people long, and 19207 people wide. The heavy nos drains 100 cap every 12 seconds. Going by the size of a 100 cap booster charge, 100 units of cap has a volume of 4 cubic meters. So every 12 seconds, the 19207 people at the top of each chain are taking 4000000 cubic centimeters of cap between them, or 208 cubic cm each (or cube of just under 6cm per side) and passing it down to the person below them, who passes it to the person below them, so on and so forth. Lets just hope we dont run of Minmatar to work in the coffee fueled nos-chains ^^
Doctor Dre	Posted - 2007.08.23 19:35:00 - [14] Originally by: Admus Slap! Take a look at your units, man! 1400mm is 1.4 metres, I'm afraid. Doh! Originally by: Dialorah Lets just hope we dont run of Minmatar to work in the coffee fueled nos-chains ^^ starbucks' modified heavy nosferatu?
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:47:00 - [15] Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? Wins thread Oh wait, wrong forums == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Cornucopian Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.27 21:43:00 - [16] Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? LAWL, I can see him drowning in 50 hectolitres of superheated coffee right now crying ZOMGNOOOONOSAAAAAIIEEE ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Gus Morgan Genos Occidere	Posted - 2007.08.27 22:37:00 - [17] Edited by: Gus Morgan on 27/08/2007 22:39:57 Originally by: CCP Greyscale Originally by: Akita T Originally by: CCP Greyscale What do you think the two gigawatt power draw on a large nos is used for? Making coffee for the guy who hits the "on" switch? Assuming the water is kept at around 4 degrees Celsius in storage, and you need it at 100 Celsius for coffee-making... 96 grades * 200 grams * 4.18600 joule/gram/grade / 2 gigawatt = 40.1856 microseconds That's one FAST coffee machine if you ask me See, this is what I like - posts with numbers and stuff. +10 points depends if you use some Powergrid to actually recreate earths atmosphere. more pressure = lower boilingpoint. how fast can you cook coffee in zero gravity? I think we need a dev response for this one...
Vicious Phoenix	Posted - 2007.08.28 03:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Gus Morgan depends if you use some Powergrid to actually recreate earths atmosphere. more pressure = lower boilingpoint. how fast can you cook coffee in zero gravity? I think we need a dev response for this one... gravity != pressure Inside the ship there will be pressure. Unless you meant to say vacuum instead of zero gravity. CFW (Certified Forum Warrior) I kill people ingame too. Originally by: CCP Tuxford I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
Gus Morgan Genos Occidere	Posted - 2007.08.28 05:57:00 - [19] Edited by: Gus Morgan on 28/08/2007 06:00:21 Originally by: Vicious Phoenix Originally by: Gus Morgan depends if you use some Powergrid to actually recreate earths atmosphere. more pressure = lower boilingpoint. how fast can you cook coffee in zero gravity? I think we need a dev response for this one... gravity != pressure Inside the ship there will be pressure. Unless you meant to say vacuum instead of zero gravity. well depends, gravity causes pressure too :) but yeah, its the pressure thats releveant i guess.

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