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What point a Cerberus?

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d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.15 22:42:00 - [1] Edited by: d026 on 15/08/2007 22:47:05 Edited by: d026 on 15/08/2007 22:45:22 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Ryysa No idea if anyone mentioned this, but. Nanoed up cerb with ham's is fairly scary. I'm still waiting to see the math of anyone who knows the damage and range a cerb can do with a full rack of HAM's using both forms of T2 and the T1. and all skills to 5. 546 dps up to 20k with TII rage 387 dps up to 95k with TII javelin 546 dps up to 23k with dread guristas 523 dps up to 23k with cn 455 dps up to 23k with t1 setup is with 3 x bcu, tp, bayloading and warhead rigs. all skills lvl 6. just as a comparison.. deimos can dish out 658dps @ 18k or 812 dps at 12k + is faster than you and probably doesent have much weaker tank:)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.16 00:40:00 - [2] Edited by: d026 on 16/08/2007 00:42:22 Originally by: Tovarishch Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 23:46:55 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Tovarishch Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case. There's no other way to calculate DPS because not all shots with guns hit in the game either and yada yada all other crap that is involved. The ship looks fine as a close up HAM ship fitted to do damage. Not to mention it's awesome at long range missile fights. If I had caldari cruiser 5 I would fly a HAM cerb. This is also considering that I have amarr cruiser 5, minmatar cruiser 5, and BC 5. Last argument I saw was that the Cerberus' role is pointless (long range missile spam). In my opinion its role as long range missile spam in the form of either T2 heavy or HAM's is both fine. Bringing other ships into the argument doesn't help anyones side because you can say "Well why not use X instead of Y" in almost every argument like that. Cerberus looks like a preference ship...if you like missiles and like shooting them far, fast, and with a good amount of explosions, it's cool. 1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous? 2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less? 3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)? --- Edit - these are not rhetorical questions. I'm Caldari specialized since my first day in the game, have flown the Cerb for ages, and would love to find some answers to these questions. Also, just because it's difficult (not impossible) to calculate the general effect of missile flight time on DPS does not mean it's irrelevant. Long-range missile sniping gets its DPS utterly castrated by flight time. Assuming you even manage to land one missile... which is rare. imho its quite simple.. after 25 seconds when my missile hit all other hips have already dealt damage. assume a rokh @ 200k, it would have done 8k damage before my first volley hits the target for 3,7k damage... it will take me another couple of seconds to catch up with my superior raven dps from 200k to reach the rokhs 25 sec damage advantage. but by then the target will be death probably... so if the fight lasts only a couple of seconds i lose an enormeous ammount of dps but it evens out after arround 1 minute. anyway fights just dont usualy last long enough to get to the point where my raven dps starts to count.. - sniping in a missile boat is pointles - fighting closerange in a missile boat is pointless due to lack of dps.. so is the cerbs only purpose killing frigs/ceptors? if so my catalyst does that to and much cheaper..
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.16 09:20:00 - [3] Edited by: d026 on 16/08/2007 09:23:17 Originally by: Wayward Hooligan Originally by: Tovarishch Edited by: Tovarishch on 15/08/2007 23:46:55 Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Tovarishch Also, keep in mind, that calculated DPS is assuming no flight time on the missiles... which is, as we all know, not the case. There's no other way to calculate DPS because not all shots with guns hit in the game either and yada yada all other crap that is involved. The ship looks fine as a close up HAM ship fitted to do damage. Not to mention it's awesome at long range missile fights. If I had caldari cruiser 5 I would fly a HAM cerb. This is also considering that I have amarr cruiser 5, minmatar cruiser 5, and BC 5. Last argument I saw was that the Cerberus' role is pointless (long range missile spam). In my opinion its role as long range missile spam in the form of either T2 heavy or HAM's is both fine. Bringing other ships into the argument doesn't help anyones side because you can say "Well why not use X instead of Y" in almost every argument like that. Cerberus looks like a preference ship...if you like missiles and like shooting them far, fast, and with a good amount of explosions, it's cool. 1. Explain how long-range missile spam is in any way preferable to a sniping turret ship of equivalent class that provides superior DPS that is instantaneous? 2. If #1 is true why not use a Caracal when it has two more turret hardpoints and a drone bay... and costs magnitudes less? 3. Explain how the Cerberus is preferable up close to a ship built for close-range combat (less massive, faster, more agile, more DPS, more flexibility in roles)? --- Edit - these are not rhetorical questions. I'm Caldari specialized since my first day in the game, have flown the Cerb for ages, and would love to find some answers to these questions. Also, just because it's difficult (not impossible) to calculate the general effect of missile flight time on DPS does not mean it's irrelevant. Long-range missile sniping gets its DPS utterly castrated by flight time. Assuming you even manage to land one missile... which is rare. What is the max range a Cerb can hit out to? How many other cruiser / BC class ships can put dps out to that range while ignoring tracking? I agree that missile flight time leaves something to be desired but if I am not mistaken a Cerb can hit targets that are far the hell away. What can a Zealot hit out to? 110km max? I'd have to double check with our cerb pilots but I'm pretty sure they can hit farther than that. What is dps of a Zealot at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km? What is dps of an Eagle at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km? What is dps of a Muninn at 110km? What is dps of a Cerb @ 110km? Now increase all of those ranges to the max range of a Cerb and redo the math. I don't know the answer as I don't fly all of those ships but I'm guessing the Cerb does well in some of those spots. cerb can do 417 dps @ 127k with all lvl V skills. but if we take 15 seconds missile flight time into account a eagle would have done 2595 damage when the first volley from the cerb hits for 1921 dmg. after another cycle the eagle would have done 4496 damage when the 2nd volley from the cerb hits the target for 1921 dmg (3842 dmg combined)... so even tough the cerb does more dps than the eagle on paper (by far more dps) in a quick engagement the eagle (who is not known for its dps) outdamages the cerb at even farther range (129k)
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.17 10:46:00 - [4] Originally by: Awox You never gave the maths to prove the DPS is castrated, you just make this claim. Castrated is a bit of an exaggeration so do the math. I'm gunna stop trying to argue, you're obviously right, and everyone arguing in favor of the Cerberus is completely wrong. To you write this as you alt tab from a boring fleet fight / POS engagement btw? cerb spaming missiles at 120k = 15 seconds missile flight time eagle at 120k = 0 sec hybrid flight time deimos at 10k = 0 sec flight time within this first 15 seconds the eagle can put out 2,5 dmg, the deimos 10k dmg while the cerb still waiting for his missiles to hit and doing 0 dmg so far... is that so hard to get?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.18 01:18:00 - [5] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 17/08/2007 20:30:47 There is. Their range dps. Look at the spreadsheet above - the cerb outdamages all other HACs at 100k within 20 seconds. If you would increase missilespeed by the factor 10 this would happen in 2 seconds. There would be no point at all in using anything but missiles at range. if the gang is large enough missiles suck. if the gang is mainly closerange missiles suck to. so if you want to get your dps fly with a sniper gang consisting of 5 peeps?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.18 16:38:00 - [6] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 18/08/2007 01:51:17 If the gang is shortrange you can fit HAMs and still be rather competative with other HACs. And, no, in a large longrange gang where your targets die within 20 seconds it is worse than turrets. For anything which lasts longer however it is BETTER. What do you expect - that it is superior always? Also, as a sidenote: HAM flight time got boosted on sisi - a cerb can rech now with its shortrange weapon system 185k. So this whole tread is about how much it sucks to snipe with missiles and you now tell me that soon we can snipe from even further out? Anyway in a closerange gang you are not even competitive against a thorax. in a longrange gang you are only competitive within certain circumstances (if the target does not go down within 20 seconds). so in 95% of the combat scenarios the cerb just plain sucks compared to all other hacs and its only purpos remains to shoot frigs and ceptors.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.18 16:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Goumindong Why do HAMs suck in the close range? A cerb is now going to do 500 DPS to 40km. All the while its missiles will travel faster than any HAC that needs to get in range except ones with snake sets AND doesnt need to worry about transversal. 500 dps sucks compared to 6-700 dps from a simple thorax or 800 dps from a deimos. and traversal is not much of a problem anyway if you are using blasters. if you fly with a gang the primary often gets webbed to hell anyway so its even les of an issue. so i can chose between a 5 mil thorax or a 50mil cerb i always go for the thorax. if i can chose between a eagle or a cerb i always go for a eagle. there is just no point in either cloaserange or sniping cerb.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.18 16:57:00 - [8] Originally by: Aramendel You are honestly comparing 500 dps from 40k to 800 dps from 4k? yeah i do because you never fight at 40k. usualy you fight at +150k or at 0-24k
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.18 17:14:00 - [9] Edited by: d026 on 18/08/2007 17:16:08 Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: d026 Originally by: Aramendel You are honestly comparing 500 dps from 40k to 800 dps from 4k? yeah i do because you never fight at 40k. usualy you fight at +150k or at 0-24k Which is still a far way from 4k. A deimos does not even nearly deal 800 dps at 15k, nevermind 24k. its funny that i mainly see blaster boats as top damagedealer on killmails and not cerbs which can do such ueber dps from 40k:) im sure its because its so hard to keep traversal low and getting in optimal with em..
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.18 18:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Liang Nuren Or because everyone realizes its pointless to fly a cerb. I see far more blaster boats in space than cerbs. Liang QFT:)

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