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Skaaj
Thunderstruck.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:12:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Lydia Browm hell if this is a case nerf vaga,rifter, cerberus, drake, rook, falcon, huginn, rapier, megathron , hyperion, maelstrom, tempest, rokh, raven,scorpion.
There now theres nothgint to nerf about
Anyone else notice that there is no Amarr ships in that list
Boost Amarr!!
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welsh wizard
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:25:00 -
[32]
As far as I'm concerned the actual ship has never been overpowered. It's simpily the drone release/recall/dampening combination thats broken.
If it was actually possible to kill its drones it would be a well balanced ship. It doesn't really need all those highs though.
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Jinmie
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:28:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Jinmie Unbalanced is all a point of view.
Drake is imba because it can fit a 1000 dps passive tank that even your 850dps pure gank Myrm can't beat, then he shoots your drones too!
OMGZ NERF DRAKE LYKE.
The so-called 1000 dps tank Drake can't do anything to you. It can't tackle you, it's slow as hell, and it has less firepower than my aged grandmother.
The Myrmidon, however, can fit a MWD, tackle, booster and one sensor damp, while having a dual rep tank (with the ship bonus, that's rouglhy equivalent to 60-70% of a BS dual rep tank), and can sport 6 heavy ions (300 dps? more?) + 5 bonused T2 drones (450+ dps).
And if he play the scoop-redeploy game, you're going to have a long time locking his drones with a damp on you.
Where overpoweredness is concerned, both ships aren't even comparable. One has a very strong point, and is full of weaknesses in every other aspect, while the other doesn't have any real weak point.
Lol ok, my Myrmidon tanks 450 dps with T2 and rigs, my Dominix 950 with T2 and rigs.
But yes clearly le francais that's 60 - 70%.
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:39:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 14/08/2007 14:39:00
Originally by: welsh wizard As far as I'm concerned the actual ship has never been overpowered. It's simpily the drone release/recall/dampening combination thats broken.
If it was actually possible to kill its drones it would be a well balanced ship. It doesn't really need all those highs though.
QFT. Not that this thread will make a difference. The same arguments were put up when the ship got introduced - and ignored. This thread will too.
Still, I guess it helps to vent about this sometimes.
---
Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
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vanBuskirk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.14 14:56:00 -
[35]
I must be getting old. I remember this argument about the Thorax, back when it could field 8 heavy drones, a 1600 plate and a rack of light neutrons.
Sure, a ship with lots of heavy drones can cause heavy damage. However, kill the drones and its firepower is pretty well gone. No other ship can have its firepower halved or worse without killing it altogether, or NOSing it to death - the latter of which is being fixed. ---------------------------------------------- "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent."
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Tenpun M
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Posted - 2007.08.14 15:21:00 -
[36]
there are so many ways to counter a myrmidon. I actually think the hurricane is a better ship but it's not fotm so noone is shouting.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.14 15:33:00 -
[37]
Originally by: vanBuskirk I must be getting old. I remember this argument about the Thorax, back when it could field 8 heavy drones, a 1600 plate and a rack of light neutrons.
Are you suggesting that the old thorax was in line with the other cruisers?
Originally by: vanBuskirk
Sure, a ship with lots of heavy drones can cause heavy damage. However, kill the drones and its firepower is pretty well gone. No other ship can have its firepower halved or worse without killing it altogether, or NOSing it to death - the latter of which is being fixed.
My, I tought tracking disruptors (and other EW in general, and defenders) were usefull for just that: stick two of them on a zealot, and see how well it's DPS will hurt you. ------------------------------------------
What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Blood Cultist
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Posted - 2007.08.14 15:50:00 -
[38]
Remember everyone, the Myrm has a better passive tank than the drake. Totally balanced.
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Juha85
Beasts of Burden YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.08.14 15:56:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Juha85 on 14/08/2007 15:59:42 Edited by: Juha85 on 14/08/2007 15:58:26
Originally by: Blood Cultist Remember everyone, the Myrm has a better passive tank than the drake. Totally balanced.
Can you run the numbers how you end up with better passive tank on a myrmidon? It doesnt have the resistance bonus of a drake. It also has lower shield amount by around 20% if I remember right and lower amount of med slots. Yes it has 2 more low slots but is that enough to compensate for 20% less shields and 25% less resistances? ---------------------------------------
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2007.08.14 15:59:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Zemeckis R on 14/08/2007 16:00:09 Edited by: Zemeckis R on 14/08/2007 15:59:26 edit: spelling
Originally by: Jim McGregor why do they also need more drones as well? Tell me some of the drawbacks of gallente ships that makes oversized drone bays something essential. Its difficult to find a good reason for it.
drones are a weapon.
.drones (your weapon) must be launched into spaces to be used
.drones (your weapon) can be killed (and it's extremely simple, people just don't understand it, fortunatly) and you are a sitting duck then
.drones (your weapon) have to come close to you to deal damage + .drones (your weapon) often don't obey to you (instead other weapons only needs f1...fx to be used)
and if you warp away without scooping them back, you loose 'em (you loose your weapon)
how many other weapons works this way?
ps if you are a missile user... your weapons ALWAYS hit.
pps drones require a brain to be used
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Justice Bringer
Minmatar Combined Technologies
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:01:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Jacob Holland I've said it before and I'll say it again... The Myrm should IMHO never have been a heavy done platform. The bonus should be changed from a 10% bonus to drone HP and damage to a 20% bonus to Light and Medium drone HP and damage.
The problem as I see it is that all too often we always get the same old bonuses applied to new ships and to be honest it's a bit boring.
I've said this before, but why is it not possible to still have a drone boat, but give the ship completely different bonuses than those that other ships already have?
20% bonus to Drone Speed 5% bonus to Drone Tracking Speed
or
20% bonus to Durability 5% bonus drone Tracking Speed
or
20% bonus to Drone Speed 5% bonus to Rate of Fire
I'm not suggesting that these should be the bonuses, but it's very easy to think of new ones that can work well without being over the top.
People always complain about the fact that the Ishtar has such a massive drone control range but what's the point if the drones take forever to get there? Well at least the drones have the extra buffer built in, but they are still very slow at long range unless you change your setup accordingly. The medium hybrid bonus could have been dropped in favour of a second drone bonus to really make it an all out drone cruiser and the same can be said for the Myrmidon.
I think the bonuses for all ships could be different because as it stands it's a case of how big is their gun, we'll get a bigger gun approach and that can be a 'bit' boring.
In any case all ships have their strenghts, and believe it or not, their weaknesses so you al just have to adapt accordingly
Justice
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ArmyOfMe
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:05:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Im still a bit annoyed that the balancing devs didnt listen to the ones who thought that 100 m3 of drones would be very much enough (me, for example). I mean, the ship was weak when it was introduced, then buffed TWICE to make it the most overpowered ship of all the new battlecruisers.
Have to agree with you on this one tbh
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3nkil
The Chocolate Factory
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:07:00 -
[43]
Originally by: ArmyOfMe
Originally by: Jim McGregor
Im still a bit annoyed that the balancing devs didnt listen to the ones who thought that 100 m3 of drones would be very much enough (me, for example). I mean, the ship was weak when it was introduced, then buffed TWICE to make it the most overpowered ship of all the new battlecruisers.
Have to agree with you on this one tbh
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:09:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Keitaro Baka FFS people:
Myrmi already has one less overall slot to begin with. If you want to change anything on it in my opinion it should be:
It has one less overall slot...
But 75 cubes more drone bay[equivelent to about 3 slots] AND 1 more mid/low slot which is MUCH more valuable than the high slots it uses.
Its about equivelent to a 6/4/7 prophecy with 125 cubes, a drone damage bonus, and an energy weapon cap use bonus. Could you imagine such a ship?
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Marlene Steiza
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:17:00 -
[45]
Here we go again NERF NERF NERF.....
STFU
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Drek Grapper
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:28:00 -
[46]
I think a well thought out nerf of some sort is valid for this ship. Nerf it or buff the other 3 tier two battlecruisers. Ie: 7th turret for Hurricane thank you please.
Drek. - Michael Schumacher won many a formula one race. Alot of the time he didn't win because he had a better car...he won because HE WAS A BETTER DRIVER and because he used SUPERIOR TACTICS. |
Blood Cultist
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:31:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Blood Cultist on 14/08/2007 16:31:27
Originally by: Juha85
Can you run the numbers how you end up with better passive tank on a myrmidon? It doesnt have the resistance bonus of a drake. It also has lower shield amount by around 20% if I remember right and lower amount of med slots. Yes it has 2 more low slots but is that enough to compensate for 20% less shields and 25% less resistances?
I remembered reading that on these boards but didn't bother checking. After running the numbers in eft I get a slightly better passive tank on the drake.
Drake:
6 Heavy missile launcher II loaded with scourge
3 LSE II 3 Invuln II
4 SPR II
5 Hobgoblin II
991 Average dps tankable, 317 dps
Myrm:
6 425mm autocannon II with EMP
3 LSE II 2 Invuln II
6 SPR II
5 Ogre II
942 average dps tankable, 654 dps, 475 from drones
It has 5% less tank for more than twice the damage. The drake has to give up BCUs for SPRs which is why I consider its tank balanced, the myrm on the other hand gets to keep its full drone dps.
Myrm also pulls ahead in gang with a vulture running a shield harmonizing link 1230 vs 1271.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:41:00 -
[48]
Quote: there are so many ways to counter a myrmidon. I actually think the hurricane is a better ship but it's not fotm so noone is shouting.
I think the Hurricane is better too, but only because of the potentially higher speed, agility and weapon range. However... that Hurricane will actually take a bit of skill to fly, rather than just MWD/warp-to-tackler-at zero, webscramdampnosdrones of the typical Gallenteasymode pilot. The Myrm is imbalanced because it's powerful and so easy to pilot.
Some other points... the Myrm is resistant to ewar, because of the autonomy of drones. It's extremely flexible - it can gank, it can tank, it can tackle (and all three at the same time!). It can even snipe!
And "missiles always hit" is an even bigger noob myth than "FOFs only work out to your locking range".
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.08.14 16:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Juha85 Edited by: Juha85 on 14/08/2007 15:59:42 Edited by: Juha85 on 14/08/2007 15:58:26
Originally by: Blood Cultist Remember everyone, the Myrm has a better passive tank than the drake. Totally balanced.
Can you run the numbers how you end up with better passive tank on a myrmidon? It doesnt have the resistance bonus of a drake. It also has lower shield amount by around 20% if I remember right and lower amount of med slots. Yes it has 2 more low slots but is that enough to compensate for 20% less shields and 25% less resistances?
ran some numbers on omnitanks and tanks fitted for a specific damage type.
myrmi passive average: 813 dps myrmi semipassive average: 889 dps myrmi passive em: 1264 dps myrmi semipassive em: 1377 dps
drake passive average: 829 dps drake semipassive average: 987 dps drake passive em: 1505 dps drake semipassive em: 2017 dps
so for omni tanking myrmi comes pretty close to the drake but lacks a signifacant amount when tanking a specific rat. though that is with all lows for tanking, which the myrmi can afford to do, while the drake cannot, thus when fitting one bcu you'll come to the following numbers:
drake passive average: 630 dps drake semipassive average: 750 dps drake passive em: 1143 dps drake semipassive em: 1532 dps
now the drake only wins the semipassive single resist competition, the myrmi wins with a considerable distance in the omnitank category. note that dps dealt by the myrmi is still considerably higher (349 dps drake including drones and t2 hi damage missiles, fitting is very tight versus 475 dps myrmi not using a single gun)
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Shadowsword
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.08.14 17:18:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jinmie
Lol ok, my Myrmidon tanks 450 dps with T2 and rigs, my Dominix 950 with T2 and rigs.
But yes clearly le francais that's 60 - 70%.
Myrmidon with 2 Med rep II, exp hardener II and omni-tank, 2 nano pumps and one nanobot accelerator gives 554 tanked DPS (uniform damage repartition). Said Myrmidon alos has MWD, booster, sensor damp, and 740 DPS with ogres II and faction ammos.
A megathron using the same mods and rigs, but with large reps, gives 806 tanked DPS (again uniform).
554/806=0.68
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What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
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slothe
Caldari 0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.08.14 17:23:00 -
[51]
maybe if npcing ravens fitted a large smartbomb instead of a cloak there wouldnt be a problem
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter. Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 18:46:00 -
[52]
Originally by: slothe maybe if npcing ravens fitted a large smartbomb instead of a cloak there wouldnt be a problem
1 smartbomb is nothing to bonuses heavy drones...just rescoop and wait for raven to cap out from your nos (until nos nerf anyway) raven will never break your tank.
My corp had a crazy myrm pilo0t who would leeroy into enemy gangs solo...and he could always kill at least 1, sometimes 2-3 of a 6-7 man gang...solo. often he could get out with his ship.
simple condensed example. 3 harbingers v 1 myrm. who wins?
Originally by: Snuggly It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2007.08.14 18:56:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Zemeckis R on 14/08/2007 18:58:32
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
Originally by: slothe maybe if npcing ravens fitted a large smartbomb instead of a cloak there wouldnt be a problem
1 smartbomb is nothing to bonuses heavy drones...just rescoop and wait for raven to cap out from your nos (until nos nerf anyway) raven will never break your tank.
My corp had a crazy myrm pilo0t who would leeroy into enemy gangs solo...and he could always kill at least 1, sometimes 2-3 of a 6-7 man gang...solo. often he could get out with his ship.
simple condensed example. 3 harbingers v 1 myrm. who wins?
all depends by pilots skills, skillpoints and fitting i can kill 10 men gang in solo, yeah, but i'm all t2 fitted and max skilled, with 3 years experience in pvp (most soloing) and 1 year spec in my preferred ships, and the enemy often use to fit t1 **** ships.
edit: not everytime you have the possibility to scoop the drones (think if you are some km away from them for example, or they don't obey) and anyway in a 5-6 men gang why don't everyone shoot to his drones? he his alone after all, and if he scoop 'em he is no more a threat!
i'm seriously thinking that the most of you are talking without knowing a ****!
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Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.08.14 18:57:00 -
[54]
The Myrm itself isn't overpowered. Drones are. Ever notice how every single ship with a drone bonus is regarded as extremely strong or overpowered? Yeah.
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:02:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Zemeckis R on 14/08/2007 19:02:05
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
simple condensed example. 3 harbingers v 1 myrm. who wins?
if the 3 harbingers are properly fitted and know what to do they win if the 3 harbingers are piloted by noobs they loose
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Incantare
Caldari Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:03:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Quote: there are so many ways to counter a myrmidon. I actually think the hurricane is a better ship but it's not fotm so noone is shouting.
I think the Hurricane is better too, but only because of the potentially higher speed, agility and weapon range. However... that Hurricane will actually take a bit of skill to fly, rather than just MWD/warp-to-tackler-at zero, webscramdampnosdrones of the typical Gallenteasymode pilot. The Myrm is imbalanced because it's powerful and so easy to pilot.
Some other points... the Myrm is resistant to ewar, because of the autonomy of drones. It's extremely flexible - it can gank, it can tank, it can tackle (and all three at the same time!). It can even snipe!
And "missiles always hit" is an even bigger noob myth than "FOFs only work out to your locking range".
I wouldn't go as far as saying the hurricane is better, one may be able to kill a myrm solo but in gang it cannot come close to the firepower of a blaster myrm which has the added benefit of a fith mid for (more) e-war. Drones being destroyable isn't generally an issue outside the smallest engagements.
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Zemeckis R
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:04:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Zemeckis R on 14/08/2007 19:04:43
Originally by: Xequecal The Myrm itself isn't overpowered. Drones are. Ever notice how every single ship with a drone bonus is regarded as extremely strong or overpowered? Yeah.
the problem is that the most of people panic when in troubles and instead of thinking what to do, simply activate all modules on the enemy and wait there are a lot of way to counter drones, but fortunatelly the most of you think "omg drones, i'm f*****d"
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:06:00 -
[58]
I like how Goumingdong says that 25 m^3 of drone space = 1 slot. I'm sure glad he isn't the one balancing eve, because his ideas for balance are even worse than Benn Helmsman's original ideas =/
Liang
Originally by: "QproQ"
When people say "Put 'stabs on your 'cane", they mean GYROSTABS"
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:20:00 -
[59]
Quote: the problem is that the most of people panic when in troubles and instead of thinking what to do, simply activate all modules on the enemy and wait there are a lot of way to counter drones, but fortunatelly the most of you think "omg drones, i'm f*****d"
If only this was true.
As has already been pointed out, the ability to kill drones is irrelevant outside the smallest of engagements. In gangs above 5 or so, there's too many drones and too much DPS for killing drones quickly enough to be possible/helpful.
In those other cases, the dampers-deploy-scoop-instant magical drone shield regeneration means that attempting to kill drones at close range is mostly a waste of time.
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True Ace
Gallente Blood Moon Masques Lunar Dominion
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Posted - 2007.08.14 19:46:00 -
[60]
i would tend to agree with all this if the game was balanced with 1v1. hurricane and myrm is the standard for tier 2 bc. the drake needs a buff to dps and harbinger needs a serious buff to its tank. id say give the drake another missle slot and the harbinger resist bonus maybe. IM YOUR KING'S KING. |
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