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Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.14 12:50:00 - [1] below is my original post in another thread, which i removed and put here. i'd just like to know why it is that some people come at folks like isso and bmbe like they're the antichrist (and i'm not saying that those folks are wrong, i normally tend to agree with them if not join in on it); BUT, they have nothing bad at all to say about two public corps (emfi / aatp) that have done pretty much nothing at all this entire year and last year probably performed worse than isso and bmbe normally do. Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 14/08/2007 12:29:38 Originally by: Naphtalia I confirm the facts in the OP, however it is the shareholders choice to vote for CEO, I supported Asriel to taking this task and have confidence. I won't be voting with any of the shares in my possesion (not personal nor in EMFI) to make it a shareholder choice. it's not like there's really a choice to be made. sorry, but it's true. vote no and the billions of investor isk sit idly by for another 6 months? last div was when? last dec or jan? and whomever has a lot of isk tied up sitting idle, just hopes that "scam" doesn't happen? vote yes, and at least someone is doing something with the isk. does a no vote mean that the corp gets liquidated and investors get all the proceeds? if not, then what's the point of voting no? ya know, i'm sorry; but after the huge uproars you see on a monthly basis JUST about ISSO and BMBE, i have to ask -- all you people upset about those two, do you have no isk at all invested in emfi or aatp? or is it just that you've thought of those two corps (all year long) as a safe place to leave your isk so you don't spend it? because i sure haven't seen any of you throwing fits about the mismanagement (i.e. nothing but losses, no divs, billions sitting idle for the better part of a literal year, et cetera). if it turns out that discontented isso/bmbe investors DO have substantial amounts tied up in emfi and/or aatp, then i just have to wonder about their motives behind flaming the former two on a monthly basis but not even mentioning the latter two... if beni wants a story for his evetv, there's you a nice one. edited to add: oh, real life stuff happened: got burned out, hit by a bus, aliens abducted me, etc... thought these corps had provisions in place for things like that happening, i.e. drama provisions.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:30:00 - [2] The reason why Naphtalia made those statements is because he doesn't want to be declared at fault if either I or Shiva Shakti turn out to be scammers in the manner of Prigogine Technologies. Secondly, he also doesn't want to be seen as telling the shareholders what to do; if the shareholders don't trust me or Shiva Shakti, they shouldn't be forced to accept either of our leadership (and should have the option of liquidation). 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.14 13:58:00 - [3] I think Ezoran's main point, is that EMFi seems to be on a different pedestal to that of BIG/ISSO. The lack of content, updates, dividends, and losses are all good reasons for an investor to generally be disappointed but it is strange to see the market don't tear Naph's head off over it, whilst they won't hesitate to do so for those other corps mentioned. Frankly, Ezoran does have a point. I have a high respect for EMFI so this isn't counted as an attack in any way, it is just strange to see the double standards in play by the general public I guess. Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.14 14:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Ricdic I think Ezoran's main point, is that EMFi seems to be on a different pedestal to that of BIG/ISSO. The lack of content, updates, dividends, and losses are all good reasons for an investor to generally be disappointed but it is strange to see the market don't tear Naph's head off over it, whilst they won't hesitate to do so for those other corps mentioned. I think there are multiple reasons for this. 1) People saw Naphtalia disappear for a few months. Many people had basically relegated most of their shares to the dustbin and were in many ways simply glad to have Naphtalia back at all. 2) People are sick of the stock market drama. 3) EMFI has a history of good treatment of investors and being open to suggestions and comments. BMBE, on the other hand, is exactly the opposite, which is why they've always gotten a bad rap. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.14 14:09:00 - [5] You are complaining that there is not enough complaining? How can I satisfy you exactly?
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.08.14 14:12:00 - [6] This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE. Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.14 14:16:00 - [7] Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE. Well you can always make up for it with good equipment. A Nymph's cloak and the appropriate cap can raise Charisma by as much as 4 points each. Oh wait, wrong game... 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.14 14:16:00 - [8] Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE. Well you can always make up for it with good equipment. A Nymph's cloak and the appropriate cap can raise Charisma by as much as 4 points each. Oh wait, wrong game... 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Naphtalia Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.08.14 14:29:00 - [9] Just to chime in... the vote isn't for "liquidation OR new CEO" but "This CEO or look for another CEO"... recruitment
Motivated Prophet Zerodot Schools Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.14 15:09:00 - [10] Originally by: Naphtalia Just to chime in... the vote isn't for "liquidation OR new CEO" but "This CEO or look for another CEO"... Which new CEO, presumably, would preside over the liquidation of the corp, since it's hard to imagine more-qualified CEO's to continue to run operations, given the corporations and proposed CEO's involved here. Still, valid point, there is a difference. MP -- Proud steward of 47 billion isk in public money, and counting. Ask me about mineral compression!
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.14 16:59:00 - [11] Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE. Ricdic hit it on the head, and a combination of what Dark Shikari and Dr Slurm said may very well be on the money as the reason(s) why. Which also goes back to when Proton Power had a bad (or late) div, but he was all upfront about what was going on and everyone was cool with it. Goes to show how PR (both good and bad) CAN go an extremely long way. With Ray seemingly poised to take over BMBE (if he hasn't already), I'd think it's a safe assumption to make that BMBE won't be getting anywhere near the flack it has been all these months even IF divs don't change one iota (possibly even if they drop a bit). With ISSO not planning on posting monthly reports on eve-o again (per their last report), will they be forgotten on eve-o? or will people (rightfully) complain that isso can't be arsed to be bothered with posting on boards where they(isso/stins/whichever) can't moderate the truth?
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.14 17:15:00 - [12] With Tornsoul it was the contrast between his arrogance and lack of performance/effort that brought such criticism on him. When Tornsoul started he had very good reputation and then he "cashed it in." Ray is coming from a different level and he does what he says he will do so there is no need to criticize him too strongly. In a way it seems that maybe the good/working/unseen part of the TS/Ray partnership was Ray.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.08.14 17:20:00 - [13] Originally by: Rthor With Tornsoul it was the contrast between his arrogance and lack of performance/effort that brought such criticism on him. This I totally I agree with. Originally by: Rthor When Tornsoul started he had very good reputation and then he "cashed it in." This I don't. Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks!
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.14 17:59:00 - [14] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Dr Slurm This is probably the first time that Charisma is actually important in EVE. Ricdic hit it on the head, and a combination of what Dark Shikari and Dr Slurm said may very well be on the money as the reason(s) why. Which also goes back to when Proton Power had a bad (or late) div, but he was all upfront about what was going on and everyone was cool with it. Well Proton Power earned it. He demonstrated consistently superb dividends over and over; you can't complain about getting "only" 7% return when everyone else is struggling to get 5%. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.14 18:30:00 - [15] Edited by: Rthor on 14/08/2007 18:30:15 Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Rthor When Tornsoul started he had very good reputation and then he "cashed it in." This I don't. Which part? I assume the second part. Well that is probably we disagree. I think that all public companies in Eve borrow capital from their shareholders. And I believe that the cost of this capital to a public company should be higher than 2-3 percent per month because shareholders should be compensated for their risk of the management screwing up intentionally or unintentionally and also for the risk of a patch and aging of the game making their ISK worth less. What I mean is that whenever a new patch makes getting ISK easier the existing ISK is devalued. Also if you can get your hands on a lot of ISK it gives you competitive advantage when new content is released because you can invest in opportunities. So in my opinion Tornsoul was able to borrow 100 billion from his shareholders for a very cheap interest rate and he was using this money for his own investments. This is what all public eve companies could do because money is fungible. This is my point and this is why I think how I think about public companies in Eve.
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.14 19:39:00 - [16] Edited by: Rthor on 14/08/2007 19:39:40
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.08.14 20:06:00 - [17] Originally by: Rthor This is my point and this is why I think how I think about public companies in Eve. I still don't entirely agree with the point you make regarding Tornsoul's situation or intent however I do applaud your explanation of your point. Pretty good, enough so that I'm not going to detract from it by arguing points of it. Quote: The Eve-Online forums may not have invented whining, but they sure have perfected it. Misanthropy: It's not just for Rednecks!
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.14 20:50:00 - [18] http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=575006&page=1#9 see, this is what i'm talking about, that makes no sense from an investor's point of view, specifically: "On behalf of shareholders I would like to take this opportunity to thank Naphtalia for his vision with EMFI. It is a unique corp and was run by a unique CEO of the highest integrity. I hope to see EMFI Manager return in the future " thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice. for a corp that has made investors next to no isk in a year's time, this sort of thing honestly makes me wonder. i guess it shows the sort of returns/share performance that certain individuals expect? from the quoted text, one could basically leave his/her isk in their wallet, put out a couple of incredibly cheap buy orders, resell those a few months later and i've accomplished the same or better, profit-wise. good PR is great; but it's very odd (read-funny as hell) that no one cares that their isk hasn't made them any money in a year's time; yet, they have all the faith in the world that some day it will eventually do something. from an outsider's point of view, if i knew no one from adam -- those type of people would strike me as either in on something, or obvlivious to the purpose of purchasing publicly traded corporations' shares/stocks. i say this, because if the evetv commentaries do bring new people to the publicly-traded-shares-market; don't be surprised if you see a number of 'what the...' statements.
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.14 21:17:00 - [19] Well additional factor is that some of these people may have quit the game also. Average lifespan of eve account is something like 9 months. So if you borrow money through IPO, pay out 3 percent per month this gives you 33 months before you run out of ISK from the IPO. If your investors have quit, they do not complain, and if they do not complain they have quit. They might come back of course but thats when PR would need to come in.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.14 21:50:00 - [20] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/08/2007 21:53:00 Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice. If you're going to flame some of the oldest public corporations in EVE, at least get your facts right. How do you expect people to flame a corporation that hasn't done well in the past 7 months (not 12 months) due to its core business model, which people used as their primary reason for investing in the first place, and had nothing to do with the competence of its CEO, who took a break from EVE for two months? Imagine you have a mutual fund that invests in precious metals. All precious metals decline, and the mutual fund loses some money. Do you think people are going to go out and say "damn, the mutual fund owner did a bad job?" No, they'll say "damn, the market went down, I hope it goes back up." Bad performance, alone, is not a justifiable reason for flaming/insulting a CEO. Bad performance because of incompetence by the CEO, however, is. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
EBANK Ricdic Eve-Tech Savings n Loans Zzz	Posted - 2007.08.15 07:04:00 - [21] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice. Well, whilst the absence was something that would normally be frowned upon, the corporation is somewhat designed to make money regardless of whether it's CEO is online or not. Of course, having said that, things like corporate buy backs, selling out when a corp looks to be failing, and buying into new corporations was not done. Luckily there haven't been any scams of late, or major stockmarket changes that would require the above incidents (short of the EMFi issue itself). We were having a chat about this in EGSEx last night, most notably the amount paid out over time. It was interesting to see the age of corporations, and we managed to isolate the 5 oldest public corporations in Eve that are currently still in existence. These corps, in order of creation: EMFI AATP BMBE C-R-A ISSO All but ISSO have reached 1 year old now. Anyway, Banni Vinda had purchased shares at IPO date and had kept all dividend evemails so we were able to determine precisely how much EMFI has paid out over time. It came close to 24.64b paid out in dividends on a 100b IPO. This is over approx 14 months. So it comes out to approx a 3.44% monthly dividend. While a lot of corps do pay out at higher levels, it still should be shown as considerably impressive that even with a 25b loss that the corp incurred, such a large amount of isk was paid out to shareholders.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 12:06:00 - [22] Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 15/08/2007 12:07:59 Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 14/08/2007 21:53:00 Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice. If you're going to flame some of the oldest public corporations in EVE, at least get your facts right. How do you expect people to flame a corporation that hasn't done well in the past 7 months (not 12 months) due to its core business model, which people used as their primary reason for investing in the first place, and had nothing to do with the competence of its CEO, who took a break from EVE for two months? Imagine you have a mutual fund that invests in precious metals. All precious metals decline, and the mutual fund loses some money. Do you think people are going to go out and say "damn, the mutual fund owner did a bad job?" No, they'll say "damn, the market went down, I hope it goes back up." Bad performance, alone, is not a justifiable reason for flaming/insulting a CEO. Bad performance because of incompetence by the CEO, however, is. so you're saying that aatp and emfi both have done the returns they have over the past year because of... bob? and i did read that right. 2 months. no divs for half a year or so doesn't cover a two month vacation from eve, does it? but i do remember that emfi and aatp are the only two corps you've ever publicly endorsed. ironic.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 12:21:00 - [23] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic good stuff. so IF you bought into at the ipo time or the next couple of months, you made a little money. if you bought it in the past 7 months+ (it being emfi and aatp) you made jack. now, on to just this interesting situation in general. looking at it as a whole, IF you spin it, can make that 3%+ sound decent/good. but, there has been no activity for most of the life of the corp. overlooking that is definitely showing an unjustified bias. i could make a corp, give out 50% divs the first month and not do anything again for two years and my "overall" numbers would look pretty decent/average. but, that doesn't mean i did anything worth a damn with the corp or that i did a good job managing those funds for all that time (i.e. they sat idle for most of those two years). it's all in the context in which you look at it (or don't look at it) and the spin (if any) you put on it. i choose to look at it from the point of view that i'm just some average joe (or a forum alt, right ds?), which i am just an average joe, and i can't say that sitting on tens of billions of isk for all this time doing nothing for the public with that isk, is being a good steward of the isk. if anyone does believe that is being a good steward, by all means, send me all the isk you can muster and i promise i can sit on it for 7 months+ and give you no divs and then go find a ceo to run the business for me. flame that if you wish, it's what is being defended.
Fury Banker Fury Bank	Posted - 2007.08.15 12:51:00 - [24] Originally by: Dark Shikari Imagine you have a mutual fund that invests in precious metals. All precious metals decline, and the mutual fund loses some money. Do you think people are going to go out and say "damn, the mutual fund owner did a bad job?" No, they'll say "damn, the market went down, I hope it goes back up." And what would they say if the management of the fund then vanished from sight for months? And what would they say if when the fund management finally returned they, in effect said "We're bored of this - so you can have a vote. Your choices are: a) Nothing happens and I maybe vanish again, b) Some of my friends take over running the fund." Don't you think they'd be saying "Hey! where's option c - we get our money back. It's been tied up doing nothing for ages so we'd rather have it back then put in the hands of people who apparently believe vanishing for months is perfectly acceptable."
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2007.08.15 13:00:00 - [25] I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the *****s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal. \| Open Source Offline Wallet \| BMBE ISK Loans \|
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 13:07:00 - [26] Originally by: Ray McCormack I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the ***s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal. i got tired of ***ing about stupidity several months ago. pretty much got tired of DS backing "doing nothing" for months on end and defending it like it was the holy grail. others have been skeered that if they spoke out, then they'd lose billions cuz "oh i got tired of yall saying it was a scam, so i scammed". people learned from eib. but feel free to troll and spin it. ballerinas spin a lot as well.
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.15 13:12:00 - [27] Rthor Bank IPO Capital needed: 200B (I need more capital because the more the bank has the more I can loan out and more loans is more money) Dividends: Guaranteed 10 percent per month If the bank is a success, as I am just figuring out if there is demand and there seems to be since Eefrit is doing well, there will additional rounds of funding every 6 months also paying out guaranteed 10 percent per month.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.15 13:44:00 - [28] Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/08/2007 13:44:42 Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Ray McCormack I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the ***s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal. i got tired of ***ing about stupidity several months ago. pretty much got tired of DS backing "doing nothing" for months on end and defending it like it was the holy grail. OK, so you think that EMFI should have done something different. Explain to me what EMFI should have done, considering they had loads of shares that are very difficult to sell and had almost no ISK capital? I mean if you constantly flame it, you must have a better plan, right? Honestly, I'm interested in hearing this one. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Sexy	Posted - 2007.08.15 14:04:00 - [29] Sexy thinks Rthor's bank idea is just so sexy! Full endorsement from the sexy part of Eve.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 14:22:00 - [30] Originally by: Dark Shikari Edited by: Dark Shikari on 15/08/2007 13:44:42 Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Ray McCormack I'm glad to see all this hyperbole oozing out of the ***s after a decision has been made. Very constructive. Where were all you naysayers when things were being sorted out over the past two months? Where were your opinions then? It's always easy to comment with hindsight in your arsenal. i got tired of ***ing about stupidity several months ago. pretty much got tired of DS backing "doing nothing" for months on end and defending it like it was the holy grail. OK, so you think that EMFI should have done something different. Explain to me what EMFI should have done, considering they had loads of shares that are very difficult to sell and had almost no ISK capital? I mean if you constantly flame it, you must have a better plan, right? Honestly, I'm interested in hearing this one. i seem to obviously be too stupid to come up with a plan over the course of a year's time. you must be correct, that sitting on it for 6+ months, not communicating with the public and then finding other scape-CEOs to run the corp must be the only way to do anything. guess that's why no other production corp or mutual fund have made zero profit the past year. oh wait. wouldn't i be running a public corp if i could be assed to bother with those details? oh wait, someone WAS running those corps and doing anything with them. if you don't like the cussing, oh well. i don't like people that talk in circles and blindly defend something obviously in the wrong. guess we all have pet peeves. aside from the past two days, when has ANYTHING this toon posted been starred out? oh yeah, never. so please, find something else to whine about in random threads. is that why the ONLY two public corps you've backed in recent memory (emfi and aatp) have made SO much profit the past six months? just for clarification, in this case "SO much profit" = zero you also should just post "i hate squirrel turds". seriously.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.15 14:34:00 - [31] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd i seem to obviously be too stupid to come up with a plan over the course of a year's time. you must be correct, that sitting on it for 6+ months, not communicating with the public and then finding other scape-CEOs to run the corp must be the only way to do anything. guess that's why no other production corp or mutual fund have made zero profit the past year. oh wait. Your facts are completely wrong. Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd is that why the ONLY two public corps you've backed in recent memory (emfi and aatp) have made SO much profit the past six months? just for clarification, in this case "SO much profit" = zero Actually, I haven't backed any public corporations since the EIB scandal. The only "backing" I've done of EMFI and AATP was my campaign to get Naphtalia back in the game to transfer control of the corporations to people who have more time in game to manage them. Please do research before you post, because when you don't, it makes you look like a fool. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 15:57:00 - [32] Originally by: Dark Shikari words selective memory + untruths = great new ceo~!! you just keep on making up your own history and past of what has/hasn't been said and try to twist/spin everything you can. i'm sure you'll do wonderful.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 16:07:00 - [33] Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 15/08/2007 16:08:06 Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 15/08/2007 16:07:22 guess i was wrong, you endorsed more than just those two. Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion Posted - 2007.03.19 21:24:00 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edited by: Dark Shikari on 19/03/2007 21:21:11 Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- honestly, if you've backed just a couple of bad investments, and i never notice any shiners (shiner being lots of isk return consistently); then, i've probably ignored you more than even noticed what you've had to say on this forum. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Since EIB and the end of the age of the obvious scam IPOs, I have endorsed: a) EMFI. Succeeded, but got pounded into the ground by the ISS failure. It'll be back eventually, so this is not really a failure or success. But it wasn't EMFI's fault really. I have around 600,000 EMFI shares. b) AATP. Very successful, getting better every day. I have about 700,000 AATP shares. c) FIN. Done great so far, don't see that it'll stop any time soon. I have 200,000 FIN shares. d) TINYDOT + ZERO: Both seem to be doing great. I have quite a number of shares of both. I specifically avoided endorsing: a) The northern ISS outposts. They never seemed like the smartest idea, and earned very little money. b) ISSO, for obvious reasons. Originally I bought 2b in shares, but got rid of them ASAP as I saw ISS go down the tubes. edited: link to credibility thread http://eve-search.com/index.dxd?thread=493358#6535703
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.15 16:41:00 - [34] Calm down or I will be alone again. There is no point in saving shareholders if they do not want to be saved.
EMFi Manager EvE Mutual Fund Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.15 18:50:00 - [35] Just becuase EMFI didn't pay any dividends, doesn't mean nothing happened or any isk was made. you say: 9 months no dividends = sitting on isk for 9 months... However EMFI has made roughly 30bil in the last 9 months, that is about 45% on the 65b EMFI was worth after the ISS crash. This was done partly from receiving dividends. partly from buying back shares and partly from investing in good stocks at the right time... Don't forget for example EMFI still bought in 50% of C-P-H when it IPO'ed and still did deals. Anyways, I feel it won't really help talking to you, since you are just interested in.. well I don't know and don't care to be honest... probaby something to do with Rivers Enterprises.
EMFI AATP Advanced Astrological Technology Production	Posted - 2007.08.15 18:52:00 - [36] Oh About AATP.. AATP also was quite active, till the CEO ran off, at that moment we arranged outsourcing of Tech2... scaled up the STUFF program, and had all isk locked in a CAPII BPO. Then the t2 crash came in fullscale and the CAPII was repaid.. yes.. that isk (about 21b+) has been sitting idle for the last few months while searching for a new COO or CEO. which has been found only now. The dividends were lower for AATP (last one 6 weeks ago or so?) mostly becuase of the lower investment after the CEO ran off (not me but the CEO that started the corp) and the Tech2 hurting. AATP Homepage
Naphtalia Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.08.15 18:53:00 - [37] funny thing is, you don't even own shares in emfi/aatp and you only post becuase you are jealous of the slack I am getting, or the respect/trust/confidence peopel are showing me.. did anything not go too well with you in the past? or is this indeed mostly about TS? recruitment
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:01:00 - [38] I remember how you said that you will get all the ISK back for sure and that you were immediately congratulated by a lot of people that you will do it. How is that going?
Naphtalia Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:20:00 - [39] Originally by: Rthor I remember how you said that you will get all the ISK back for sure and that you were immediately congratulated by a lot of people that you will do it. How is that going? Not sure what you are talking about (ISS or EIBI? or SVE) anyways.... it is still going well.. not sure I think I said something like 4-12 months no dividends and buyback is in place.. I did about 10b of buybacks so far.. and the 12months aren't over and we are almost there.... but then, I am not really sure I understand your question.. nor am I sure why you would complain about "No whining" shrug ... recruitment
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:40:00 - [40] I am just asking. There was a situation in a past where someone took a big loss because outposts were lost and the person in charge of the public company said do not fret because she will get this money for sure. Then everybody said that that person is such a stand up act. I said how about we wait till that is done before we congratulate that person just for planning. I got flamed for "being mean" to a well meaning person. It is a similar to what OP is talking about.
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:47:00 - [41] Originally by: Rthor I am just asking. There was a situation in a past where someone took a big loss because outposts were lost and the person in charge of the public company said do not fret because she will get this money for sure. Then everybody said that that person is such a stand up act. I said how about we wait till that is done before we congratulate that person just for planning. I got flamed for "being mean" to a well meaning person. It is a similar to what OP is talking about. I think its best to wait until afterwards. People don't like it if you flame someone who has a historically good reputation just because they encounter a difficulty; most posters seem to prefer that you give them a chance first. However, if later on, it turns out they failed miserably in dealing with that difficulty, then you can look back and say they did a crappy job. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save EVE-files bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder!
Rthor Gallente Smugglers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:54:00 - [42] OK but you are saying that I should wait before "flaming" but I am not flaming. I am only pointing out that they should wait before congratulating and assuming that the plan will come to fruition. Now the people who flame me for saying that, should not wait until the plan comes to fruition? I am not wrong because all I say is that we do not know what will happen. The people who flame me are wrong because even if the plan succeeded I still was not wrong because I did not say that the plan would not work. I only said to wait.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:55:00 - [43] Originally by: EMFi Manager Just becuase EMFI didn't pay any dividends, doesn't mean nothing happened or any isk was made. you say: 9 months no dividends = sitting on isk for 9 months... However EMFI has made roughly 30bil in the last 9 months, that is about 45% on the 65b EMFI was worth after the ISS crash. This was done partly from receiving dividends. partly from buying back shares and partly from investing in good stocks at the right time... Don't forget for example EMFI still bought in 50% of C-P-H when it IPO'ed and still did deals. Anyways, I feel it won't really help talking to you, since you are just interested in.. well I don't know and don't care to be honest... probaby something to do with Rivers Enterprises. does that somehow changed the fact that emfi has paid no dividends this year? oh wait, probably has something to do with someone being in a hospital.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:57:00 - [44] Originally by: Rthor I got flamed for "being mean" to a well meaning person. the road to hell is paved with good intentions, dontcha know? don't hate armadillo shells because they have no preferential treatment - they call liars liars, good deals good deals, and have no intent to spin things cuz well, they gots nothing to hide.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 19:59:00 - [45] Originally by: Rthor OK but you are saying that I should wait before "flaming" but I am not flaming. I am only pointing out that they should wait before congratulating and assuming that the plan will come to fruition. Now the people who flame me for saying that, should not wait until the plan comes to fruition? I am not wrong because all I say is that we do not know what will happen. The people who flame me are wrong because even if the plan succeeded I still was not wrong because I did not say that the plan would not work. I only said to wait. i think he meant "wait several years" since the waiting has gone on all year. from an investor standpoint - a dog is a dog. no divs = crap. nav going down = crap. no communication on the "official blog site" for 6ish months = even more craptasms. but, they mean well and they've done so much good work so far, just check out emfi.blogspot.com. oh wait.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.15 20:00:00 - [46] Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 15/08/2007 20:04:49 this is going about as well as i figured it would. oh we did nuffin wrong, just trust your money for us to um, not make div payments while lots of other corps do. see, this is how the convos would've gone half a year ago, EXCEPT then, it'd have been "oh this just happened, you're full of beans, it'll be back up in no time" (sort of like dark shik's post back in march). now it's "why you waited till now"? well, no one posting anything on the website and no "hey we issued no divs but this is how we're doing" posts to comment on that i noticed. could be a new age. i guess we'll see in another 12 months. sorta like bob wiping goons from eve and not letting them have anythingatall in 0.0. lots of bigs words get thrown about, but the proof is in the pudding and this pudding aint putting out. maybe yet more ceos can do it. although, i find it odd that it's other people, since the name i keep hearing as being the stellar person to be trusted so much isn't the name of either of those ceos. so now it's good reputation by proxy... interesting. still crap, but interesting spin, again.
Naphtalia Caldari The Black Rabbits	Posted - 2007.08.15 22:46:00 - [47] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd does that somehow changed the fact that emfi has paid no dividends this year? oh wait, probably has something to do with someone being in a hospital. I really don't get your point... and what you are trying to achieve.. /shrugs recruitment
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.16 01:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Naphtalia Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd does that somehow changed the fact that emfi has paid no dividends this year? oh wait, probably has something to do with someone being in a hospital. I really don't get your point... and what you are trying to achieve.. /shrugs the same thing emfi/aatp has achieved? s'ok, i'm just some forum alt noob, what do i know about money?
TornSoul BIG	Posted - 2007.08.17 04:29:00 - [49] Originally by: Rthor So in my opinion Tornsoul was able to borrow 100 billion from his shareholders for a very cheap interest rate and he was using this money for his own investments. This is what all public eve companies could do because money is fungible. You apparently don't know me very well. So please don't try and speculate about my actions. You've already proven you'll get it wrong. ISK not on loan in the BMBE, has never been touched by anyone. Period. You may not like me, but you can definatly trust me not to pull a stunt like that. BIG Lottery [url
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2007.08.17 19:03:00 - [50] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Naphtalia Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd does that somehow changed the fact that emfi has paid no dividends this year? oh wait, probably has something to do with someone being in a hospital. I really don't get your point... and what you are trying to achieve.. /shrugs the same thing emfi/aatp has achieved? s'ok, i'm just some forum alt noob, what do i know about money? Here's how it happened. ISS got ganked. EMFI says, "Hey guys ISS shares tanked, and we lost a bunch of NAV because of it. To fix the NAV I think we shouldn't pay divs until it gets back to where it should be. Or we could keep paying div's but your EMFI share will only be worth blah. You all vote on it, and we'll do what you vote for." EMFI holders voted to pause div's until NAV recovered. This was anticipated to be around September. Naph got burnt on EVE and didn't post much for a while. Now Naph says, "Hey guys, I'm kinda done with EVE, but I don't want to leave you all in the lurch with EMFI & AATP. Here's some things we can do, and this one I like. You like? Cool. New CEO's it is. Who's good for it? Ok. You all got CEO candidates, vote on it." And here we are now with new CEO's for EMFI and AATP taking things in hand. So where in this did the investors get done over? Oh wait we didn't. Stuff happened and it got handled in the open. No fuss, no muss. Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.17 19:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Pang Grohl nice spin
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.08.17 20:36:00 - [52] Ezoran DuBlaidd - You could have used this opportunity like I did to purchase up EMFI shares for about 6K and under then turn around and sell them for 7000-9000 per. For a Dividendless share they sure are pretty active on the exchanges. I was only willing to risk about 300mil on shares that I though would tank or become useless, but it worked out in the end. Across my trades I now have 15,000 shares left and am only 34mil in the hole. That means to break even I only need to sell them for 2,300 per. If the NAV goes back to 10,000 ISK per, and buy back is - NAV minus 10% then I will have made 101mil. I'm know I'm not making billions but I was willing to risk about 300mil to turn a maybe 100mil profit. I honestly can't say I complaining about making a 33% return. Now if it tanks I'm really only risking 34mil in the end. Which is by far worth it in my opinion. Either I'm losing 34mil or making at least 100mil those are risks I'm willing to take. ---------------------------------- Send ISK to SencneS for good Kama!
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.08.17 22:48:00 - [53] Originally by: SencneS Ezoran DuBlaidd - You could have used this opportunity like I did to purchase up EMFI shares for about 6K and under then turn around and sell them for 7000-9000 per. For a Dividendless share they sure are pretty active on the exchanges. I was only willing to risk about 300mil on shares that I though would tank or become useless, but it worked out in the end. Across my trades I now have 15,000 shares left and am only 34mil in the hole. That means to break even I only need to sell them for 2,300 per. If the NAV goes back to 10,000 ISK per, and buy back is - NAV minus 10% then I will have made 101mil. I'm know I'm not making billions but I was willing to risk about 300mil to turn a maybe 100mil profit. I honestly can't say I complaining about making a 33% return. Now if it tanks I'm really only risking 34mil in the end. Which is by far worth it in my opinion. Either I'm losing 34mil or making at least 100mil those are risks I'm willing to take. if it'd have been active on RESX, i'd have done that with aatp and emfi both, in a hearbeat. but alas, balogh disabled trading on both.
Eefrit Eve Financial Services	Posted - 2007.08.18 18:25:00 - [54] I'm not interested in commenting on EMFi or AATP, however I would like to say that I think ISSO gets attacked far more than is warranted, and BMBE since Ray has been running it has also deserved less flack than it has been getting. Here ends my 2 cents. /Eefrit
Femintaki Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.20 04:59:00 - [55] Originally by: EBANK Ricdic We were having a chat about this in EGSEx last night, most notably the amount paid out over time. It was interesting to see the age of corporations, and we managed to isolate the 5 oldest public corporations in Eve that are currently still in existence. These corps, in order of creation: EMFI AATP BMBE C-R-A FIN Interesting. Actually T2AHL is still very much alive and has been around a lot longer than many of those. Quote: Do or do not - there is no try!
Femintaki Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.20 05:30:00 - [56] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=575006&page=1#9 see, this is what i'm talking about, that makes no sense from an investor's point of view, specifically: "On behalf of shareholders I would like to take this opportunity to thank Naphtalia for his vision with EMFI. It is a unique corp and was run by a unique CEO of the highest integrity. I hope to see EMFI Manager return in the future " thank you for making no isk in a year's time and being absent for 6+ months from the emfi/aatp aspect at least? nice. for a corp that has made investors next to no isk in a year's time, this sort of thing honestly makes me wonder. i guess it shows the sort of returns/share performance that certain individuals expect? from the quoted text, one could basically leave his/her isk in their wallet, put out a couple of incredibly cheap buy orders, resell those a few months later and i've accomplished the same or better, profit-wise. I am glad to say I hope you don't know me from Adam. I know little about the stock markets in eve these days but I do know much about EMFI and how it has been run, and how it made investment decisions. When EMFI stopped paying dividends it had around 78 bil in assets due to the ISSO breakdown. Since then, simply by playing share markets quietly in the background, and reaping significant dividends, it has made approx 23 bil increase in value. You did not know this when I posted - but I did as I am a trustee of the fund and the new CEO post confirms it. What I said makes complete sense, EMFI ran the corp with complete integrity. The shareholders should certainly be grateful for that. So he had some real life stuff to deal with, get over it, he kept in touch with a few people as he could - would you have done the same? For some reason I am not sure you would. If you don't trust the people behind EMFI don't invest - simple as that. But don't try and rubbish the things I say on public boards - people who know me well know I don't give plaudits easily, there are few people in eve who I consider have earned enough of my respect to do so. Quote: Do or do not - there is no try!

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