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ZaKma
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:13:00 -
[1]
I've been giving some thought to this lately. What we had a few months back was basically nearly invincible supercapitals jumping around killing everything. Dictor bubbles didn't work, and they're immune to being scrambled so the only way to kill one was to jump a insane amount of ships right on top of it to stop it moving, and additionally nos/neut it do oblivion so it can't jump. Of course smart pilots would cyno right out (providing they weren't lagged out).
What we have now is a 10 million ship holding down ships worth 20-100 bil and since it takes a lot of people to kill supercaps it makes it extremely difficult to kill dictors taking lag and desync and all that into consideration.
My suggestion would be to give supercapitals +9999 warp strength. Then introduce capital warp disruptors that would only be *****ble on capital ships (and t2 versions that would only be *****ble on supercapitals).
So basically something like this..
Capital Warp Disruptor Activation Cost - 100 Energy Warp Scramble Strength - 1000 Optimal Range - 20km 10,000 CPU 50,000 PG
Capital Warp Disruptor II Activation Cost - 1000 Energy Warp Scramble Strength - 10,000 Optimal Range - 40km 100,000 CPU 100,000 PG
Supercapitals would get a bigger bonus so they would be able to fit the t2 version. In essence this would mean, it would take either 10 normal capitals with a Capital Disruptor each to hold down a supercap. Or you would have to risk your own supercapital to hold down another one.
Thoughts?
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FowlPlayChiken
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:33:00 -
[2]
silly idea tbh. how will you hold it long enuf to bring in 10 normal caps to scram it?:-p
http://nhimebaugh.wetpaint.com/ Just podded this sig, now where is my toy? - Wrangler
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Notleh
Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:36:00 -
[3]
I agree that supercaps were seriously overpowered and applaud CCP on making a move to counter that.
Unfortunately, I think that having a cheap, tiny little dictor hold down a massive Mothership is a bit overbalanced in the other direction.
Oveur himself said at a fanfest that this was a foolish idea.
I like your idea Zakma. Additionally, maybe it could also work cumulatively, so that a group of dictors could hold down a cap ship. Say 10-12? That way dictor specialized pilots still get their fun.
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ZaKma
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:41:00 -
[4]
Originally by: FowlPlayChiken silly idea tbh. how will you hold it long enuf to bring in 10 normal caps to scram it?:-p
Cyno them in on top of it? Or simply use your own supercap.. Perhaps 10 is a bit too much, I'd be fine with a lower number.
As for dictors, I think they have enough fun as it is. There should be some more risk involved in attacking supercaps than a few 10 mil ships that are easily replaceable.
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Mr Broker
Station Gremlings
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Notleh
Unfortunately, I think that having a cheap, tiny little dictor hold down a massive Mothership is a bit overbalanced in the other direction.
then dictors bubbles shouldn't be able to hold say 50 faction fit battleships either
dictors have a role, and they do it fine, don't solo with your mothership and you'll be fine
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Marie Sklodowska
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.15 22:49:00 -
[6]
this is an idea i've preached for a long time.
Basically, a supercapital is expensive and very useful. It should strike fear into it's enemies. But it's too easy to hold it down. If you want to hold a supercapital in place then you should be required to commit your own supercapital.
IMO a capital warp disruptor is the perfect idea, but they shouldn't be usable on anything but a capital ship.
www.eve-search.com | www.eve-files.com |
Pallidum Treponema
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.15 23:06:00 -
[7]
Cap disruptors is an interesting idea, but to not make dictor bubbles entirely ineffective, how about making it simple enough:
Normal caps: +10 warp strength Supercaps: +50 warp strength
Dictor bubbles: 10 points of scramble.
This would mean that supercaps are NOT immune to warp disruption. In fact, if a hostile force is willing to commit 50 points worth of tackle, well good for them. They'll scramble a supercap. Adjust numbers as necessary (Too easy? Make it 100pts).
This would mean that a dictor bubble is still strong enough to hold down any normal, stabbed ship, AND a coordinated effort by at least six dictors can still bubble a supercap, but it's no longer enough for a single dictor to bubble a supercap.
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Feterous Jolin
Contraband Inc. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.15 23:45:00 -
[8]
Bubbles should continue to keep caps and super caps from going into warp. They should not keep them from jumping.
Introduce capital ship jump disruption probes to be fit on specialized ships, like dictors. Make it a T2 battleship, or something, but let's not introduce capital ship tacklers...your just taking away from thier proper purpose.
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Ferocious FeAr
Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 00:49:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Ferocious FeAr on 16/08/2007 00:49:04 I always thought if you want to kill a supercap you HAVE to risk your own. Supercaps should be able to lock each other down. Dictors right now are just too cheap of an option to take down a ship that is 20b+ in value.
Wait, nevermind just use heat!
Don't hate me, learn to love me |
Constantinee
Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 00:51:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Feterous Jolin Bubbles should continue to keep caps and super caps from going into warp. They should not keep them from jumping.
Introduce capital ship jump disruption probes to be fit on specialized ships, like dictors. Make it a T2 battleship, or something, but let's not introduce capital ship tacklers...your just taking away from thier proper purpose.
this idea is win --------------------
FRICK
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2007.08.16 01:30:00 -
[11]
Dear CCP,
I think that allowing a 100k isk frigate the ability to hold down a 160 million isk battleship is ridiculous. Battleships should have an innate +100 warp core strength and cruisers can fit a -10 wacp core strength scrambler. I mean the battleship cost 1,600 times more isk!!!!
Listen isk value of a ship should make them pwnmobiles. This is the only fair way to do it. If I have 200 mil and the other guy has 2 mil I should win regardless of tactics every time.
Thanks, Rich Crybaby
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Scythus Aratan
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.08.16 01:32:00 -
[12]
I think the tractor beam on the rorqual should scramble supercaps.
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Vando
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2007.08.16 01:38:00 -
[13]
10 capitals is too many. Maybe 10 BS/BC hulls of some description, but when was the last time you saw 10 caps present when a MS got tackled?
I think there's definitely room for a new T2 BC based off the tier2 hulls that can be a 'superheavy' tackler, with a bubble launcher that only affects jump drives.
I'll agree that currently the risk/reward is a little too skewed towards the attacker right now, but we don't want to go back to the bad old days of invulnerable supercaps. If you don't want your shiny ships to die be more careful. There is no godmode, deal with that.
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juduzz
Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 02:11:00 -
[14]
Capital scramblers... hell yes! Making super caps imune to bubbles hell no,
a super cap is usualy running smarties so will pop most bubles why it take cordinatio and multi dictors to hold it, its not dictors killing super caps its just shiity coding or what ever is the course of the major desync issues tq seems to have gotten recently.
If it was brought in although hope its not one capital should be enough to hold down a super cap not 10 carriers, this aint an isk for isk ratio its a dont fly your super cap as a solo pwn mobile.
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Virtuality
Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.16 02:13:00 -
[15]
Can CCP just please prevent character less than 6 months old from entering 0.0? Thanks.
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Isolda Kargil
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Posted - 2007.08.16 02:13:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Vando 10 capitals is too many. Maybe 10 BS/BC hulls of some description, but when was the last time you saw 10 caps present when a MS got tackled?
I think there's definitely room for a new T2 BC based off the tier2 hulls that can be a 'superheavy' tackler, with a bubble launcher that only affects jump drives.
I'll agree that currently the risk/reward is a little too skewed towards the attacker right now, but we don't want to go back to the bad old days of invulnerable supercaps. If you don't want your shiny ships to die be more careful. There is no godmode, deal with that.
I like that idea.
The system as it is right now, is kinda paramount to a fisher, with a fishnet, trying to hold down a whale. I mean, a net will catch tuna, salmon, maybe even a bigger fish, but facing anything from a dolphin up it won't hold the fish down will it?
Would make sense to have the capitals have more engine strength or whatever. This is a parameter CCP has thus far lacked to put into the game but IMO it's fairly crucial. If you're going to propel a huge mass through space, you're going to have more powerful engines than if you're going to steer a tiny 1,000,000kg frigate through space. What can hold down such a tiny engine from such a tiny ship, should be able to influence, but not cripple, such a huge ship.
Something's just kinda disproportionate here.
-Iso Advertising space for hire. Contact in game. |
Virtuoso DeToure
Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.16 02:19:00 -
[17]
Posting in an MC thread.
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2007.08.16 02:27:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Isolda Kargil
Originally by: Vando 10 capitals is too many. Maybe 10 BS/BC hulls of some description, but when was the last time you saw 10 caps present when a MS got tackled?
I think there's definitely room for a new T2 BC based off the tier2 hulls that can be a 'superheavy' tackler, with a bubble launcher that only affects jump drives.
I'll agree that currently the risk/reward is a little too skewed towards the attacker right now, but we don't want to go back to the bad old days of invulnerable supercaps. If you don't want your shiny ships to die be more careful. There is no godmode, deal with that.
I like that idea.
The system as it is right now, is kinda paramount to a fisher, with a fishnet, trying to hold down a whale. I mean, a net will catch tuna, salmon, maybe even a bigger fish, but facing anything from a dolphin up it won't hold the fish down will it?
Would make sense to have the capitals have more engine strength or whatever. This is a parameter CCP has thus far lacked to put into the game but IMO it's fairly crucial. If you're going to propel a huge mass through space, you're going to have more powerful engines than if you're going to steer a tiny 1,000,000kg frigate through space. What can hold down such a tiny engine from such a tiny ship, should be able to influence, but not cripple, such a huge ship.
Something's just kinda disproportionate here.
-Iso
Balance > realism
I mean if ya wanna open that door I guess bumping should have a look, missile splash damage, lasers should be more effective on armor than shields, projectiles should have a flight time (I mean a round going 200,000 m/sec???) and missle explosion velocity (it should be 20,000 m/sec) should all be looked at and/or changed.
No. Supercaps and caps and frigs and battleships should all play by the same rules. IF your fielding a supercap (or even a cap) without a support fleet to protect it, it should die.
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Isolda Kargil
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Posted - 2007.08.16 02:39:00 -
[19]
Hmmm, no game is 100% realistic, and I understand and appreciate the need to keep balance closer by than realism in what is after all a spaceship game. However, the way it is right now, just makes it too easy. It's okay for a ship to have an achiles-heel, but that crucial flaw should still only be the proverbial size of a heel, not the size of a whole upper body.
As it is right now it only takes one golden bubble to slip through to undo your investment. Wether you're there with a support fleet or not, luck is too much of a factor. And how is there any balance in that? There will always be a degree of luck, and the golden BB theory will always apply in a certain form or effect, but as it is right now, it's not really a golden BB, more like a silver or bronze BB.
-Iso
Advertising space for hire. Contact in game. |
shinsushi
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Posted - 2007.08.16 03:35:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Isolda Kargil Hmmm, no game is 100% realistic, and I understand and appreciate the need to keep balance closer by than realism in what is after all a spaceship game. However, the way it is right now, just makes it too easy. It's okay for a ship to have an achiles-heel, but that crucial flaw should still only be the proverbial size of a heel, not the size of a whole upper body.
As it is right now it only takes one golden bubble to slip through to undo your investment. Wether you're there with a support fleet or not, luck is too much of a factor. And how is there any balance in that? There will always be a degree of luck, and the golden BB theory will always apply in a certain form or effect, but as it is right now, it's not really a golden BB, more like a silver or bronze BB.
-Iso
My problem with this thread is its a bunch of rich wienies trying to get their pwnmobiles back. If they had an ounce of credibility carriers and dreads would have been brought into the equation, hell even battleships for that matter. Here is a little comparison of isk to tackling ratios assuming a 10 mil isk dictor and 100k isk frigates. Ship/tackler in isk worth:
Titan/dictor = 6,000/1 mother ship/dictor = 1,600/1 Teir 3 BS/frigate = 1,600/1 Carrier/frigate = 10,000/1 Dread/frigate = 16,000/1
Hey look at that, a mothership is no worse off than a battlehip. TBH supercaps should have the same rules apply to them as battleships/carriers do, i.e. a warp scrambler would be able to scramble them.
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Flaming Lemming
Caldari Puppeteer Press
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Posted - 2007.08.16 03:57:00 -
[21]
This has to be a troll by the OP, doesn't it? No such thing as bad press! |
Jouni Kalmar
Gallente The Tidemark Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.08.16 04:34:00 -
[22]
Hate the idea, stop whinging that your uber pwnmobiles are now just pwnmobiles, they're still big, badass and explode nicely.
If there is any change i think warp disruptors should work on them too, however not stop them from being able to jump, a seperate jump scrambeller and different dictor bubble should stop only jumping.
so u have scram + dictor bubble to stop warp and the same to stop jump, boo hoo. my 2 cents
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MasterDecoy
Gallente The Grifters
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Posted - 2007.08.16 07:08:00 -
[23]
no. all i see is the mc being bitter that they can't roll over everyone like they used to.
Originally by: Gan Dalf What's going on? Why is TQ down? Who is "GMT"? What's 'Reality', will it hurt?
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Haffrage
Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 07:27:00 -
[24]
Originally by: MasterDecoy no. all i see is the mc being bitter that they can't roll over everyone like they used to.
They see us rolling...they hating...
Capital scramblers are a good idea, but they shouldn't be limited to capitals alone. I wouldn't mind seeing fittings adjusted so they can be fit very tightly on battlecruisers tbh. I agree that to kill capitals you should bring your own, but if you just don't have any and you have a capital to kill the option should be open to you.
Tech 2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers | Eve GUI Tweaks |
Malachon Draco
eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.
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Posted - 2007.08.16 08:36:00 -
[25]
You know what is even more unjust? A noobship with a warpscrambler can hold down a dreadnaught. Come on, the noobship is FREE!! How could a game ever be fair if a free ship can hold down a ship worth 2-4 billion?
Really, come on. Let's nerf noobships!
Or in short, supercaps are fine. If you don't want to get it killed, don't use it as a solo-pwnmobile. I've been up north when MC was there, and it was absolutely absurd to see Seleene warp to a gate, smartbomb some guys and warp out again, with 50-60 BS right there, and still not a chance to kill it.
Yes, that T1 frig could hold down you faction fitted vindicator long enough for the reinforcements to come and finish it off. Live with it! I bet the number of supercaps on Tranquility is still rising fast, so its not like they are completely useless now, or people would stop building/buying them. Its just that its no longer a way for arrogant and stupid people to be practically invincible. Make a mistake, and chances are you will die. Supercap or no supercap, and that is how it should be.
------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
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Constantinee
Caldari Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 09:17:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Haffrage
Originally by: MasterDecoy no. all i see is the mc being bitter that they can't roll over everyone like they used to.
They see us rolling...they hating...
Capital scramblers are a good idea, but they shouldn't be limited to capitals alone. I wouldn't mind seeing fittings adjusted so they can be fit very tightly on battlecruisers tbh. I agree that to kill capitals you should bring your own, but if you just don't have any and you have a capital to kill the option should be open to you.
lawl haff wins
hey decoy check the stats on the boards we are mate....we are :)
but on a more serious note.
bubbles that only effect capital jump drives is a hell of an idea. give a dictor or a t2 bc the ability to fit that launcher and it would be good. only thing is if a dictor can launch it then the launcher and bubbles would have to br very expensive thud the downside of that. --------------------
FRICK
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.16 10:14:00 -
[27]
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Isolda Kargil Hmmm, no game is 100% realistic, and I understand and appreciate the need to keep balance closer by than realism in what is after all a spaceship game. However, the way it is right now, just makes it too easy. It's okay for a ship to have an achiles-heel, but that crucial flaw should still only be the proverbial size of a heel, not the size of a whole upper body.
As it is right now it only takes one golden bubble to slip through to undo your investment. Wether you're there with a support fleet or not, luck is too much of a factor. And how is there any balance in that? There will always be a degree of luck, and the golden BB theory will always apply in a certain form or effect, but as it is right now, it's not really a golden BB, more like a silver or bronze BB.
-Iso
My problem with this thread is its a bunch of rich wienies trying to get their pwnmobiles back. If they had an ounce of credibility carriers and dreads would have been brought into the equation, hell even battleships for that matter. Here is a little comparison of isk to tackling ratios assuming a 10 mil isk dictor and 100k isk frigates. Ship/tackler in isk worth:
Titan/dictor = 6,000/1 mother ship/dictor = 1,600/1 Teir 3 BS/frigate = 1,600/1 Carrier/frigate = 10,000/1 Dread/frigate = 16,000/1
Hey look at that, a mothership is no worse off than a battlehip. TBH supercaps should have the same rules apply to them as battleships/carriers do, i.e. a warp scrambler would be able to scramble them.
this is a great post because it shows how just how ******** the "oh but my supercap is so expensive it shouldn't die " argument is, imma get some goony goonie goons to help quote it --------- im ghey xD |
Eteoneus
Seraphin Technologies Mercenary Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.16 10:20:00 -
[28]
Funny thing, that those jealous guys that want to have one of this "pwnmobiles" for themselves (but they sure wouldn't admit it in public) are arguing here about things they only heard in theory. Zakma is also not a supercap pilot but he had an idea brought it to public to discuss it. It's not about getting back expensive toys and whining. Nobody whines here! I hear only non Supercap pilots whine like hell. The pure thing is to equal the risc of putting a supercap into the fight and also get a Supercap and put it down.
Actually it's like playing the lottery atm. Your in with 5 ISK and a little luck and you're up to win 1 bil ISK. But it should be more like in Poker or Roulette. Bet high win high. But I agree also to some ppl that something like a capital warp scrambler should not be the only option. There should be an alternative, but it should equal the risc. ---
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Baxalusx
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.08.16 10:27:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Baxalusx on 16/08/2007 10:27:38
Originally by: Eteoneus Funny thing, that those jealous guys that want to have one of this "pwnmobiles" for themselves (but they sure wouldn't admit it in public) are arguing here about things they only heard in theory. Zakma is also not a supercap pilot but he had an idea brought it to public to discuss it. It's not about getting back expensive toys and whining. Nobody whines here! I hear only non Supercap pilots whine like hell. The pure thing is to equal the risc of putting a supercap into the fight and also get a Supercap and put it down.
Actually it's like playing the lottery atm. Your in with 5 ISK and a little luck and you're up to win 1 bil ISK. But it should be more like in Poker or Roulette. Bet high win high. But I agree also to some ppl that something like a capital warp scrambler should not be the only option. There should be an alternative, but it should equal the risc.
im worth between 80 and 100 billion isk from trading GTCs, i could have bought four motherships if i wanted, but i didn't because i knew they would get nerfed (because they were ********ly unbalanced and everyone could see it)
so shut up this, has nothing to do with jealousy and everything to do with you longing for the good old days of solo pwnmobile but it's gone and you're losing and im going to **** in your alliance ~~BOoYa~~
best regards, icorion ~GOONFLEET DIRECTOR~ --------- im ghey xD |
James Duar
Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys
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Posted - 2007.08.16 10:35:00 -
[30]
Why the hell would it be realistic that a mothership can get away easily from a ship who's sole purpose is to stop ships getting away?
The history of all warfare has been about building the smallest thing that kills the enemies biggest thing in one shot. Observe in the extreme, a nuclear bomb vs. a city.
Or on the small scale, a Bazooka disabling a tank.
The sole purpose of interdictors is to stop ships leaving. In what stupid universe does the largest, slowest ships in the game be unaffected by this? In what universe would the Empires of EVE not have already developed a way to do this?
Hell, let's face it, if EVE were realistic we'd be able to shoot depleted uranium nukes and kill the things in one shot anyway.
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