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DemonXaphan Caldari Advanced Space Technologies Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:06:00 - [31] Best bet is to tractor the wreck close enough open the cargo bay, grab whats inside it and repeat till all wrecks are done, then salvage them one by one, simple. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, diein' time's here.
Vaedon Ryder Interstellar Fuel Services	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:06:00 - [32] Meh, feels like jetcan mining to me. You can fill your cargohold and then dock, unload, and return to the field. Or you can risk filling a jetcan and losing it to thieves (granted, you can shoot at them, but many miners know that can be suicide and don't unless they've got backup). You can fit your ship to shoot NPCs in missions and salvage them...or you can fit your ship to more effectively kill ships, then go back and get your salvagers, risking the loss of the wrecks to someone else. BTW, I mine, run missions, and salvage. And I don't have an issue with the way things are ATM. Vaedon Jack-of-all-trades...Master-of-none
Praetor Kahn	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:08:00 - [33] Edited by: Praetor Kahn on 21/08/2007 20:11:03 Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Cel Halcyon Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Cel Halcyon Originally by: Tsanse Kinske By the way, the behavior was officially documented both at the time it was implemented and currently in the official KnowledgeBase. So argue that the mechanics should be changed if you'd like, argue that mission runners deserve more rewards if you'd like, but don't argue that it's unintended. Intended or not, that doesn't make the mechanic inherently correct, nor immune to change. The devs make mistakes. They're only human. They try their best to balance things but this does not always come out as intended. So why is your way better? In this method, the market still gets it's salvage, and yet, nothing is being forthrightedly stolen from a player that actually worked for it. So you're saying that by stripping off a turret to mount a salvager and salvage mid-mission I am not working for it any harder than those who decide to do the mission and come back later for salvage? Problem with that being you won't outrun someone who has warped in with a frigate or destroyer and is doing 5x your speed. See how many wrecks you get when that happens, plus you actually got your salvage with no problem; so that made no sense.
Cel Halcyon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:09:00 - [34] Edited by: Cel Halcyon on 21/08/2007 20:15:04 Originally by: Adonis 4174 So you're saying that by stripping off a turret to mount a salvager and salvage mid-mission I am not working for it any harder than those who decide to do the mission and come back later for salvage? First of all, I have no idea what you're talking about. In both of the situations you just presented, the mission runner was able to obtain the salvage that is rightly theirs, just in different manners. What's your point? EDIT: Also with many mission runners flying Ravens, they generally have a utility slot that would use for tractor beam. There's no reason the mission runner couldn't equip their salvager there without harming their combat ability. You just spend more time slowboating to wrecks. Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Sure. So let's hear your arguments about why it should be changed. So far I haven't heard anything in this thread except variations on "It's a bug," and "I want the salvage to be mine." I wrote a post in a convenient, laid out, easy-on-the-eyes format at reply six or thereabouts on why I believe the current system doesn't work properly. It would do for you to read it.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:12:00 - [35] Originally by: Cel Halcyon Originally by: Adonis 4174 So you're saying that by stripping off a turret to mount a salvager and salvage mid-mission I am not working for it any harder than those who decide to do the mission and come back later for salvage? First of all, I have no idea what you're talking about. In both of the situations you just presented, the mission runner was able to obtain the salvage that is rightly theirs, just in different manners. What's your point? That you can get the wrecks without whining to ccp about it. If you're unwilling to mount a salvager you forfeit the right to expect the wrecks to be there for you later. All you are convincing me of is that CCP made a grave error when they bowed and added can flagging for loot cans alongside jetcans. Hopefully they will now resolve this issue by removing flagging from all but jetcans. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Cel Halcyon GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:20:00 - [36] Originally by: Adonis 4174 That you can get the wrecks without whining to ccp about it. If you're unwilling to mount a salvager you forfeit the right to expect the wrecks to be there for you later. All you are convincing me of is that CCP made a grave error when they bowed and added can flagging for loot cans alongside jetcans. Hopefully they will now resolve this issue by removing flagging from all but jetcans. Please see my edit above your post. In addition, admit that if you were unable to fight for your wrecks, you'd be angry as well. The mission runner just can't up and say they won't do high-sec missions anymore. Their location is set. They can't just run away from the problem without completely changing everything.
Praetor Kahn	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:22:00 - [37] Edited by: Praetor Kahn on 21/08/2007 20:22:08 Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Cel Halcyon Originally by: Adonis 4174 So you're saying that by stripping off a turret to mount a salvager and salvage mid-mission I am not working for it any harder than those who decide to do the mission and come back later for salvage? First of all, I have no idea what you're talking about. In both of the situations you just presented, the mission runner was able to obtain the salvage that is rightly theirs, just in different manners. What's your point? That you can get the wrecks without whining to ccp about it. If you're unwilling to mount a salvager you forfeit the right to expect the wrecks to be there for you later. All you are convincing me of is that CCP made a grave error when they bowed and added can flagging for loot cans alongside jetcans. Hopefully they will now resolve this issue by removing flagging from all but jetcans. See previous post about guy outrunning you. You'd be pretty annoyed if the guy was afterburning his way between wrecks with you only getting 10-15% of *your* salvage.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:24:00 - [38] Originally by: Cel Halcyon Originally by: Adonis 4174 That you can get the wrecks without whining to ccp about it. If you're unwilling to mount a salvager you forfeit the right to expect the wrecks to be there for you later. All you are convincing me of is that CCP made a grave error when they bowed and added can flagging for loot cans alongside jetcans. Hopefully they will now resolve this issue by removing flagging from all but jetcans. Please see my edit above your post. In addition, admit that if you were unable to fight for your wrecks, you'd be angry as well. No. I would mount a tractor beam and a salvager and beat the thieves to it. Oh wait, I do. I know most ships have one utility slot, fitting both is acknowledging that you care about loot more than dps. I do, if you don't fit both then you don't. Live with your choices. Being able to shoot back is cold comfort against a loot thief who can warp out with 0.1 seconds notice. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Cel Halcyon You see, the thing is, people DO want to salvage their own wrecks. AND, even if there were to be flagging, these people could STILL salvage these wrecks. However, they would have to just hang around the mission area until the mission runner is complete. Either ask for permission or wait until the mission runner is done. Your post, and CCP's reasons make no sense when their slipshod workaround for an issue causes some players' income to be halfed or more when their salvage is stolen. Thing is SOME want to salvage, many don't. Just do some exploration around crowded mission hubs and you can find literally thousands of wrecks floating around in space that no one thought was worth it to salvage. Every one of those wrecks is a little bit of processing power and drain on the systems too. Flagging and "asking for permission" doesn't accomplish CCP's goals of salvage being just that; stuff floating in space free for the taking. It isn't slipshod, its INTENDED behavior and works exactly the way they want it too. Easiest way to not get your salvage taken? Mission run in less crowded areas. Maybe this is part of CCP's plan to spread people out so that all of you aren't lurking in Motsu Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:30:00 - [40] Originally by: Cel Halcyon Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Sure. So let's hear your arguments about why it should be changed. So far I haven't heard anything in this thread except variations on "It's a bug," and "I want the salvage to be mine." I wrote a post in a convenient, laid out, easy-on-the-eyes format at reply six or thereabouts on why I believe the current system doesn't work properly. It would do for you to read it. It was indeed very easy on the eyes, and well-written too. Unfortunately, it's just a long version of what I was talking about. Your reasons boil down to "The mechanics are bugged, the salvage should be mine, ergo anybody else getting it is stealing." Not liking the mechanics doesn't make them bugged. And regarding the salvage as yours doesn't actually make it so, nor does your unsupported opinion make people more in touch with reality thieves. Sorry. So I'll ask you again. Why should it be yours? What good do you hope to accomplish by making it so? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.21 20:31:00 - [41] Originally by: Praetor Kahn See previous post about guy outrunning you. You'd be pretty annoyed if the guy was afterburning his way between wrecks with you only getting 10-15% of *your* salvage. Firstly, salvage takes time, during which I can tractor the wrecks away from him. Second, I'm at least as fast at salvaging as he is, if not moreso, so it will be a toss up who gets the salvage. Third, if he's that intent on the salvage I'll just stop giving him wrecks, he's clearly not set up for making them himself. When he realises I'm not playing ball and warps out I'll resume. I rarely leave more than 2 wrecks in existance anyhow. It's all down to strategic management. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Praetor Kahn	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:01:00 - [42] Originally by: Adonis 4174 Originally by: Praetor Kahn See previous post about guy outrunning you. You'd be pretty annoyed if the guy was afterburning his way between wrecks with you only getting 10-15% of *your* salvage. Firstly, salvage takes time, during which I can tractor the wrecks away from him. Second, I'm at least as fast at salvaging as he is, if not moreso, so it will be a toss up who gets the salvage. Third, if he's that intent on the salvage I'll just stop giving him wrecks, he's clearly not set up for making them himself. When he realises I'm not playing ball and warps out I'll resume. I rarely leave more than 2 wrecks in existance anyhow. It's all down to strategic management. You missed the point entirely. Unless you figure on killing a single ship that's 50km away (as most time BS rats orbit at ridiculous ranges) and then taking time to approach that wreck, tractor it, then salvage it and then kill another one and repeat over and over, your method is completely flawed. Furthermore, what happens when a guy warps in after you have killed 90% of the rats and he starts microwarping/afterburning around stealing it from you? What happens when he comes in a destroyer with 4x tractor and 4x salvager? Will you get anything then? No. Absolutely not. Sure, salvaging takes time, but not when you do it like that. If you think that you are going to wait him out, think again. He's probably bookmarked your location and will just leave to make you think he's moved on and then come back in 5 minutes after you've killed more wrecks.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:11:00 - [43] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Originally by: Cel Halcyon You see, the thing is, people DO want to salvage their own wrecks. AND, even if there were to be flagging, these people could STILL salvage these wrecks. However, they would have to just hang around the mission area until the mission runner is complete. Either ask for permission or wait until the mission runner is done. Your post, and CCP's reasons make no sense when their slipshod workaround for an issue causes some players' income to be halfed or more when their salvage is stolen. Thing is SOME want to salvage, many don't. Just do some exploration around crowded mission hubs and you can find literally thousands of wrecks floating around in space that no one thought was worth it to salvage. Every one of those wrecks is a little bit of processing power and drain on the systems too. Flagging and "asking for permission" doesn't accomplish CCP's goals of salvage being just that; stuff floating in space free for the taking. It isn't slipshod, its INTENDED behavior and works exactly the way they want it too. Easiest way to not get your salvage taken? Mission run in less crowded areas. Maybe this is part of CCP's plan to spread people out so that all of you aren't lurking in Motsu Some folks mission and don't bother to loot, let alone salvage... yet the loot retains the ownership flag... I think that is all the OP is really asking for, that the wreck (salvage part) also have the ownership flag... Personally, I would set ownership flags during the mission then remove all the flags when the mission is completed (loot and salvage) giving the missioner "First Claim" on all the generated items... I would also like to see a way to flag the mission rats as well, not to force PvP but to allow it, even in High Sec... Any mission that has an item required to be completed (Kill a rat, get an object and return that object) then that item should be created with an ownership flag set to the mission runner... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:13:00 - [44] He can't tractor your wrecks. Unless you deliberately kill them next to each other he'll rarely have a chance to get a salvager on more than one at a time. Your argument fails on this and on your practice of killing everything before you begin salvaging. If you're too slow to salvage while fighting then deal with that. If somebody jumps in in a small fast ship while you're fighting four battleships then warp out so the battleships target him instead. The options are endless. ----- J-I-T-A It's a four letter word.
Ildryn Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:23:00 - [45] The thing is half you carebears that continue to mission run/salvage/whine wont fire even if the person is flagged.....to demonstrate this i have been looting and salvaging other peoples missions and all they do is whine that its not mine concord bleah bleah. And to respond to the person saying concord should just pop the person....go away :) Concord is not protection for carebears it is punishment...
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:47:00 - [46] Originally by: Vaedon Meh, feels like jetcan mining to me. You can fill your cargohold and then dock, unload, and return to the field. Or you can risk filling a jetcan and losing it to thieves (granted, you can shoot at them, but many miners know that can be suicide and don't unless they've got backup). You can fit your ship to shoot NPCs in missions and salvage them...or you can fit your ship to more effectively kill ships, then go back and get your salvagers, risking the loss of the wrecks to someone else. BTW, I mine, run missions, and salvage. And I don't have an issue with the way things are ATM. It's exactly like jetcan mining. And the OP is asking that it be treated exactly the same way: ie, if anyone tries to steal salvage (either by taking from the wreck or by salvaging it) an aggression flag is generated, and the victim gets the woefully inadequate 15 minutes to respond. Again, this is how jetcan mining works as is. This method does not prevent ore theives, is just recognizes the right of the victim to retaliate against the thief, should he choose to. I keep hearing risk/reward arguments thrown out any time mission runners say anything; so why should the loot thief be able to gain reward with absolutely no risk whatsoever? -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.08.21 21:53:00 - [47] I have to say, tidying up after mission runners is almost as hilarious as stealing ore from miners. It's not actaully all that profitable (but to be fair, it's actually not bad if you can't run L4s for whatever reason), but by far and away the discussions you get when you probe down a mission runner, and salvage their mission make it worth all the time and effort involved.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:13:00 - [48] Originally by: Becq Starforged I keep hearing risk/reward arguments thrown out any time mission runners say anything; so why should the loot thief be able to gain reward with absolutely no risk whatsoever? There are some risks, in the sense of ship destruction, though not much in HiSec. But like so many other things in EVE, the risk isn't so much ship destruction as it is spending a lot of time, effort, isk, and skilltraining, and getting little for it. Unlike some other things I could mention, it's not a cash machine. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Praetor Kahn	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:25:00 - [49] The point remains that those that steal wrecks from others are going to argue that it remain the same while people who are being stolen from and can't do anything about it in retaliation are going to want to do something about it and want it to be fixed. Oh and by the way, fitting salvagers and tractor on a mission setup is completely ridiculous. You slowboat around picking up wreck after wreck taking multiple times the norm to do the mission. Suggest a million ways to get around the issue, it doesn't matter; the fact remains you shouldn't *have* to get around the issue.
syphurous Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:27:00 - [50] THE WRECKS ARE NOT YOURS, they are the NPC's the only reason they show your Ticker or go yellow is because they share code with loot cans. If they had been coded from the ground up they would not have your Ticker on them. Stop Whining. ___ Too Many Anchored Cans
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:30:00 - [51] Originally by: Praetor Kahn So being that I'm running level 4 missions in a 0.9 security system, it is fair that they can come in while I am still doing the mission and salvage stuff that I have killed and that has my ticker on it, not theirs, and not so much as be flagged so that I can do nothing more about it than sit there and watch a three day old alt warp in on me and salvage wrecks? Are you suggesting it's far too easy to probe mission runners? Was this deadspace or outside deadspace? Were you using drones? Was the mission space within 4 au of a planet? Sounds as though a cloaked covert ops located you in 20 seconds, warped in and surveyed the wrecks, and either set up a warp-in BM or requested the NPC Corp alt to warp in behind him. What are the odds that this same person would merely adapt to the changed conditions, since it is obvious that he was selective in choosing which mission runners he looted? (Battleship mission runner, battleship mission wrecks, etc.) By all indications, it's the probing that needs fixed, not the salvaging. Yes, I believe non-exploration probing is far too easy. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:40:00 - [52] Originally by: Ildryn The thing is half you carebears that continue to mission run/salvage/whine wont fire even if the person is flagged.....to demonstrate this i have been looting and salvaging other peoples missions and all they do is whine that its not mine concord bleah bleah. And to respond to the person saying concord should just pop the person....go away :) Concord is not protection for carebears it is punishment... You are quite correct, we carebears may decide not to fire... but while you steal the salvage from the wrecks we make, we are not granted the option to prove we are not really carebears, if you steal our loot we can... and that is the problem... --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Praetor Kahn	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:41:00 - [53] Originally by: Marcus Xavier Originally by: Praetor Kahn So being that I'm running level 4 missions in a 0.9 security system, it is fair that they can come in while I am still doing the mission and salvage stuff that I have killed and that has my ticker on it, not theirs, and not so much as be flagged so that I can do nothing more about it than sit there and watch a three day old alt warp in on me and salvage wrecks? Are you suggesting it's far too easy to probe mission runners? Was this deadspace or outside deadspace? Were you using drones? Was the mission space within 4 au of a planet? Sounds as though a cloaked covert ops located you in 20 seconds, warped in and surveyed the wrecks, and either set up a warp-in BM or requested the NPC Corp alt to warp in behind him. What are the odds that this same person would merely adapt to the changed conditions, since it is obvious that he was selective in choosing which mission runners he looted? (Battleship mission runner, battleship mission wrecks, etc.) By all indications, it's the probing that needs fixed, not the salvaging. Yes, I believe non-exploration probing is far too easy. It was a three day old noob-corp alt that was dropping scan probes and warping in on missions, no drones, 20 AU outside any reasonable scanner distance. I know it was him cause I followed him off 30 AU away and saw him drop a probe.
Hamfast Gallente	Posted - 2007.08.21 22:42:00 - [54] Originally by: syphurous THE WRECKS ARE NOT YOURS, they are the NPC's the only reason they show your Ticker or go yellow is because they share code with loot cans. If they had been coded from the ground up they would not have your Ticker on them. Stop Whining. Yep, you are right, they are not ours... But they should be... hence the point of the OP's post. Thank you for playing --------*****-------- It takes 43 muscles to frown and 17 to smile, but it doesn't take any to just sit there with a dumb look on your face.
Marcus Xavier Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning	Posted - 2007.08.21 23:06:00 - [55] Originally by: Praetor Kahn It was a three day old noob-corp alt that was dropping scan probes and warping in on missions, no drones, 20 AU outside any reasonable scanner distance. I know it was him cause I followed him off 30 AU away and saw him drop a probe. He had to have at least Astro IV to find you at 20 AU (he would need another 12 days to scan you at 40 AU). I suspect he may have had BMs already setup through mission running that system or he was working with someone else who had the requisite skills to probe longer range. I haven't check Evemon to see if it's possible to learn Astro IV in 3 days, but there is no question he skilled this alt just for this kind of "mission" and could easily find you with shorter ranged probes with Astro I. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis
Praetor Kahn	Posted - 2007.08.21 23:07:00 - [56] Edited by: Praetor Kahn on 21/08/2007 23:09:46 Originally by: Hamfast Originally by: syphurous THE WRECKS ARE NOT YOURS, they are the NPC's the only reason they show your Ticker or go yellow is because they share code with loot cans. If they had been coded from the ground up they would not have your Ticker on them. Stop Whining. Yep, you are right, they are not ours... But they should be... hence the point of the OP's post. Thank you for playing That saved me a response. Much appreciated. Oh and another thing, I'm not whining, I'm simply pointing out a flaw in the game. Big difference there.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.08.21 23:13:00 - [57] Originally by: Praetor Kahn Oh and another thing, I'm not whining, I'm simply pointing out a flaw in the game. Big difference there. Pretty much it is a whine until you also explain why it's "a flaw in the game" and what the benefits are of changing it. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Enteris Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2007.08.21 23:50:00 - [58] I really don't think wrecks should fall under the flagging rules. jetcans being flagged at this point already prove that most people will still get completely robbed blind for fear of the person moving up to salvage in drakes which can help break their mission running tanks. * *Yes, a Drake can do this easily, and cheaply, and its FUNNY too.
Praetor Kahn	Posted - 2007.08.22 00:52:00 - [59] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Praetor Kahn Oh and another thing, I'm not whining, I'm simply pointing out a flaw in the game. Big difference there. Pretty much it is a whine until you also explain why it's "a flaw in the game" and what the benefits are of changing it. That's been addressed time and again in this thread not just by me but by multiple people. I'm sure you've read this thread. I'm not repeating it all again.
Nito Musashi	Posted - 2007.08.22 01:00:00 - [60] Oh if there were flagging i could see the cries when the wreck looters start setting traps daring missioners to fire. Mission runners might fit warp core stab possibly but warp core jammers? waste on any mission, unless you are going to sacrifice something to fit it. How about mwd to reach them to jam them. Thief can see what you are fighting and warp off before you can kill them or his gang mates can warp in once you start shooting and with a bookmark to your location to boot. So now they know where you are know what kind of armor tank you are fitting generally and heck might even have scanned you to boot, and can tell any possible gang mates in the area what ammo to load and possibly your fit out. Something to ponder before you go wanting kill right on these guys. Tho could lead to some interesting hi sec romps if both side start laying traps.

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