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Simple question.... Torps or Cruise for level 4's?

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Impinge Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:41:00 - [1] OK, I have looked at the Raven fittings post on the forums for doing level 4 missions. There seems to be some sort of debate about whether Torps or Cruise missiles are best for running the missions. I am looking for explanations as to why each type is better than the other, I appreciate that cruise's are faster, but torps hit harder. Can anyone elaborate? Thanks.
Zo5o	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:44:00 - [2] Ideally, learn both, then use torps for BS-heavy missions and cruises for cruiser-heavy missions. Torps will complete BS-heavy missions such as Gone Beserk and Blockade much more quickly than cruises, but torps would struggle on a small ship-infested mission such as Massive Attack.
James Grand Phoenix Navy Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.08.24 17:48:00 - [3] Torps with a target painter is best if you can spare the mid slot. -------------------------------------------------- The opinions expressed in my posts are entirely my own.
25ToLife	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:23:00 - [4] Edited by: 25ToLife on 24/08/2007 18:25:27 Edited by: 25ToLife on 24/08/2007 18:24:24 Torpedoes have troubles with smaller targets. Has to do with explosion radius and explosion speed. Although they have much MORE 'base'damage a torpedoes do LESS damage to a small target then cruise missiles. I always use torps + T2 medium drones + 2/3 BCU's on my lvl4's. Simply because it is the fastest way to do the mission. I timed almost all of the missions with cruise and torps and torps always win (also on Massive Attack, about 7 minuts faster, Zo5o!). It has to do with the fact that taking down a BS with cruise missiles takes A LOT more time then with torps. The DPS done with cruise missiles simply isnt enough to break a BS tank fast. Might be a different story with T2 cruise launchers, but I dont have the skills for that. Maybe someone else can tell us that?
Valerian Xavier Moloko.	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:21:00 - [5] Originally by: 25ToLife Edited by: 25ToLife on 24/08/2007 18:25:27 Edited by: 25ToLife on 24/08/2007 18:24:24 Torpedoes have troubles with smaller targets. Has to do with explosion radius and explosion speed. Although they have much MORE 'base'damage a torpedoes do LESS damage to a small target then cruise missiles. I always use torps + T2 medium drones + 2/3 BCU's on my lvl4's. Simply because it is the fastest way to do the mission. I timed almost all of the missions with cruise and torps and torps always win (also on Massive Attack, about 7 minuts faster, Zo5o!). It has to do with the fact that taking down a BS with cruise missiles takes A LOT more time then with torps. The DPS done with cruise missiles simply isnt enough to break a BS tank fast. Might be a different story with T2 cruise launchers, but I dont have the skills for that. Maybe someone else can tell us that? cruise wouldn't be that bad if it wasn't for the fact that defenders > cruise missiles. they really eat up a lot of your dps
Zo5o	Posted - 2007.08.24 23:59:00 - [6] Edited by: Zo5o on 25/08/2007 00:00:50 Quote: I timed almost all of the missions with cruise and torps and torps always win (also on Massive Attack, about 7 minuts faster, Zo5o!). It has to do with the fact that taking down a BS with cruise missiles takes A LOT more time then with torps. Huh. So there's like 3 BS in the Sansha Version, and only 5 BS in the Serpentis version, and torps are STILL faster? Guess torps are the way to go, period, if that's the case. Thanks for your helpful report. So I'm guessing that cruise ravens only seem more popular than torp ravens because cruise ravens are easier to fit (especially easier to fit a tank alongside)?
RaidenMagmus Ryder Interstellar Fuel Services	Posted - 2007.08.25 06:08:00 - [7] Edited by: RaidenMagmus on 25/08/2007 06:12:03 I think cruise missiles are better because you see alot more smaller-sized ships than large ones in level 4's. Cruise missiles move faster, so you get more effective throughput on how many salvos it takes to blow something up. (Missile velocity does not affect dps though.) Torps are slow, and do not benefit from Guided Missile Precision. The other factor being that you get less salvos per a reload because torpedos take twice the cargo space as do Cruise missiles. Other than those points, I'd also like to point out that fitting Torpedo Launchers takes alot more PW/CPU than fitting Cruise Missile Launchers. Which was actually the first reason why I preferred using Cruises over Torpedos. (I had fitting issues.) Edit: I don't know about anyone else, but with my ship I can usually destroy most cruisers in 2-3 salvos, and battleships vary wildly, anywhere from 8 to 12 salvos. Raychen takes like 48 salvos. (Using t1 cruise missiles w/ 7x Arbalest Cruise Missile Launchers + 3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems)
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.08.25 08:20:00 - [8] Torps are faster if you know what you are doing and pay attention. Like approx 20 - 30 % faster. As far as 'more smaller targets' go then if you do the math you will see that torps with 1 target painter do same damage to cruisers as cruise missiles without painter. Also, bulk of hp you need to chew thru is in bogger ships not in those cruisers. It's also reasonable to train for T2 medium drones. Advatage of cruise missiles is that they let you fit either tougher tank or pull it off with lower fitting skills / cheaper equipment.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.08.25 08:25:00 - [9] Originally by: RaidenMagmus Edit: I don't know about anyone else, but with my ship I can usually destroy most cruisers in 2-3 salvos, and battleships vary wildly, anywhere from 8 to 12 salvos. Raychen takes like 48 salvos. (Using t1 cruise missiles w/ 7x Arbalest Cruise Missile Launchers + 3x Caldari Navy Ballistic Control Systems) Torps (navy torps, 7 navy launchers, 3x navy bcu, hardwires) Battleships: 3 to 5 salvos (20 to 36 seconds per BS) Battlecruisers: 1 salvo (7 seconds per ship) Cruisers: 1 to 2 salvos (7 to 15 sec per ship, more for HAC's) Frigates: 2 to 5 salvos, possibly more for elite frigates. Use drones. Trick is to know how nmany salvos your target takes and then deactivate your launchers and activate them on next target if enough firepower is in air to pop the target.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.25 09:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Carniflex Battleships: 3 to 5 salvos (20 to 36 seconds per BS) There are actually some low end BS that only need two salvos :) Like Mercenary Overlords. Torps defintely pwn cruise unless you want to run missions afk. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Yakia TovilToba Halliburton Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.25 10:15:00 - [11] This seems to be and endless discussion, evry month 1 thread on this topic, with different duscusion results. My suggestion: decide it by the flip of a coin.
Duncan Storne	Posted - 2007.08.25 15:15:00 - [12] The answer depends a lot on your budget and skills. I suggest looking at it this way: Torpedoes: Offensive focus, weaker tank/more damage Cruise: Defensive focus, stronger tank/less damage If your fitting skills are moderate, you may have difficulty fitting a sufficient tank in addition to the torpedoes. If your fitting skills are excellent, you are probably fine. If you are new to lv4 missions, I'd start with cruise and a heavy tank. When you find yourself able to tank the missions fine, but going kinda slow with cruise damage, try switching to torps and see if your tank is still good enough.
Kosa Mosapiel	Posted - 2007.08.25 15:19:00 - [13] I've found that torps are very effective with 1 or 2 painters. Generally, without painters, stick with cruise. Of course that means 2 mid slots taken away from your tank, so you should have good tanking skills before you use torps with painters otherwise you might lose time to warping.
Lubomir Penev Dark Nexxus	Posted - 2007.08.25 16:28:00 - [14] Also take in account rigs. Explosion radius diminishing rigs only have an effect on cruise launchers (Warhead Rigor Catalyst I), so if you plan to fit one your raven becomes a cruise raven forever. With one or two of those and cruise launchers you absolutely slaughter support without having to compromise your tank with painters. I get more and more drones popped in missions, I would hate being stuck without drones in a torp raven having to kill 30k scrambling frigs quickly.
Dragon Lord Caldari Aces and Eights Enterprises R i s e	Posted - 2007.08.25 16:52:00 - [15] If you can spare a mid for a target painter, idealy 2, torps are easily the best for mission running, i have torps 5 and cruise 5 and i used to think cruise where better, but now that i use torps i realise the error of the ways. then again if u have tanking problems go cruise all the way. Pretty sure that without at least 1 target painter on ur torp raven it would be slower than a cruise raven.
Dragon Lord Caldari Aces and Eights Enterprises R i s e	Posted - 2007.08.25 16:54:00 - [16] Edited by: Dragon Lord on 25/08/2007 16:54:46 Originally by: Lubomir Penev Also take in account rigs. Explosion radius diminishing rigs only have an effect on cruise launchers (Warhead Rigor Catalyst I), so if you plan to fit one your raven becomes a cruise raven forever. With one or two of those and cruise launchers you absolutely slaughter support without having to compromise your tank with painters. I get more and more drones popped in missions, I would hate being stuck without drones in a torp raven having to kill 30k scrambling frigs quickly. I find the little gits pretty easy, 3 volleys while there double painted normally pops them.
RaidenMagmus Ryder Interstellar Fuel Services	Posted - 2007.08.26 17:01:00 - [17] Originally by: Lubomir Penev Also take in account rigs. Explosion radius diminishing rigs only have an effect on cruise launchers (Warhead Rigor Catalyst I), so if you plan to fit one your raven becomes a cruise raven forever. With one or two of those and cruise launchers you absolutely slaughter support without having to compromise your tank with painters. I'd like to point out that you should ALWAYS install CCC rigs. They tend to make tanking a breeze, and saves your multi-billion ship from getting popped when the server does nasty things (lag, random disconnects, & unscheduled server crashes).
Amanda Kerol	Posted - 2007.08.26 18:01:00 - [18] Sorry if I ask this here: Have to leave the TP on target untile he torps hit it or just when they are launched?
RaidenMagmus Ryder Interstellar Fuel Services	Posted - 2007.08.26 19:16:00 - [19] Originally by: Amanda Kerol Sorry if I ask this here: Have to leave the TP on target untile he torps hit it or just when they are launched? Until torp hits, missile damage is calculated on hit.
MrRookie Caldari Dark and Light inc. D-L	Posted - 2007.08.26 22:09:00 - [20] Torps always win. First of all you havea drone bay that easily takes care fo any frigs so forgett about them. The only problem is cruisers, but if you time the launching and keep one second between each of the launcehrs you are guarranteed to hitt most cruisers while they mwd and when they do, they usually die in one salvo. Attleast it works for me in most missions maybe except for Guristas missins, but guristas cruisers seem to have a natural high sig and die easily anyway. Oh and the ships only seem to mwd before they reach their optimal. Thats why I always kill cruisers first Sig removed. Please email us at [email protected] if you would like to know why. -Conuion Meow May I have pink next time plz?
Apertotes Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Kosa Mosapiel I've found that torps are very effective with 1 or 2 painters. Generally, without painters, stick with cruise. yes, but what about cruise launchers + 1 painter? it completely destroys anything from inties to BCs. i am sure that on many L4 missions that is the fastest fit.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:06:00 - [22] Originally by: Apertotes Originally by: Kosa Mosapiel I've found that torps are very effective with 1 or 2 painters. Generally, without painters, stick with cruise. yes, but what about cruise launchers + 1 painter? it completely destroys anything from inties to BCs. i am sure that on many L4 missions that is the fastest fit. No it is not. What many people don't realize is that it is not the number of ships that decides what kills them faster, but the effective hitpoints on them. And NPC BS have more hitpoints to begin with, higher resists, and also tank much more than cruisers, resulting in the effective HP of one battleship being a lot higher. One Guristas Usurper (best Guri BS) has roughly 32500 effective HP during its estimated 1 minute of life. One Guristas Eraser (best cruiser) has only 5600ish effective HP. So one Battleship has roughly the same effective HP as 6 cruisers. Long ago I did the math and came up with something like needing 40 cruisers for every one BS when to be better with cruise as compared to torps with two painters. And there are only L4 two missions I have seen where that might be the case. Most of them have much higher BS content. So torps = win. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
App Rentoo Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:12:00 - [23] If you are lazy, or suck too much to calculate the damage needed to kill stuff, use cruise. If you can fit 1 painter, and are decently skilled and want to pay attention to number of volleys needed to kill something, then torps are a bit faster typically. As for people complaining about Rachen etc...fit AB for that miss, dont bother shooting him until you are within 10k of him, and he go down without reloads. ---------------------------------------------- Caldari State corporation standing services http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=556775
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.08.27 13:27:00 - [24] This is like the 5th topic on this subject this month. Have you noticed we still have no consensus? Short answer, in some situations, cruise is better, in others torps are. If you ask me a torp explosions are cooler, so I'd go with them where I to fly a raven. :) Personally, I go with a Dominix for a cheaper better tank and no defenders nerfing my DPS, but I also have sweet drone skills and Gallente BS IV. ----------- Support fixing the EVE UI Drones should not aggro anything missiles or turrets do not.
Apertotes Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.27 14:55:00 - [25] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Apertotes Originally by: Kosa Mosapiel I've found that torps are very effective with 1 or 2 painters. Generally, without painters, stick with cruise. yes, but what about cruise launchers + 1 painter? it completely destroys anything from inties to BCs. i am sure that on many L4 missions that is the fastest fit. No it is not. What many people don't realize is that it is not the number of ships that decides what kills them faster, but the effective hitpoints on them. And NPC BS have more hitpoints to begin with, higher resists, and also tank much more than cruisers, resulting in the effective HP of one battleship being a lot higher. One Guristas Usurper (best Guri BS) has roughly 32500 effective HP during its estimated 1 minute of life. One Guristas Eraser (best cruiser) has only 5600ish effective HP. So one Battleship has roughly the same effective HP as 6 cruisers. Long ago I did the math and came up with something like needing 40 cruisers for every one BS when to be better with cruise as compared to torps with two painters. And there are only L4 two missions I have seen where that might be the case. Most of them have much higher BS content. So torps = win. well, i am no math guru, but have been doing angel L4 for more than 1 year. the ships that take the most cruise salvos to kill are arch gistum cruisers (specially crushers, centurions and phalanx). those are harder (for me) to kill than any BS i have encountered so far. and those are also more numerous than BS. 11153.85 effective hp (on lowest resistance) for most arch gistum cruisers 20098 effective hp (on lowest resistance) for the toughtest angel BS (Gist Domination Seraphim), which i do not recall having met yet on any L4 mission 12458.33 and 15877.2 effective hp (on lowest resistance) for most common angel mission BS (Gist Commander & Gist War General) taking into account the total number of cruisers and BS on many missions, i still think that cruise missiles are sometimes better than torpedoes. and by the way, i do not think that what counts is the total effective hitpoints alone. maybe BS have more effective hp, but cruisers take half or even less damage from every hit, so in theory, if you want to stay true to the purpose, when using torps you should multiply cruisers effective hp by 2 or even more if you are not using a painter. meanwhile, cruise missiles do almost full damage.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:48:00 - [26] Originally by: Apertotes well, i am no math guru, but have been doing angel L4 for more than 1 year. the ships that take the most cruise salvos to kill are arch gistum cruisers (specially crushers, centurions and phalanx). those are harder (for me) to kill than any BS i have encountered so far. and those are also more numerous than BS. 11153.85 effective hp (on lowest resistance) for most arch gistum cruisers 20098 effective hp (on lowest resistance) for the toughtest angel BS (Gist Domination Seraphim), which i do not recall having met yet on any L4 mission 12458.33 and 15877.2 effective hp (on lowest resistance) for most common angel mission BS (Gist Commander & Gist War General) taking into account the total number of cruisers and BS on many missions, i still think that cruise missiles are sometimes better than torpedoes. and by the way, i do not think that what counts is the total effective hitpoints alone. maybe BS have more effective hp, but cruisers take half or even less damage from every hit, so in theory, if you want to stay true to the purpose, when using torps you should multiply cruisers effective hp by 2 or even more if you are not using a painter. meanwhile, cruise missiles do almost full damage. Seraphims have some 28K HP, you apparently forgot structure and tank (I use 60 for tank). Yes elite cruisers are tough *****es (Not harder than BS though but about as hard as the lower end ones), but at least in my missions there are relatively few of them so they can be neglected. Of course I do not run against Angels so maybe it is different there. I really only see them in Blockades, which have so many BS that there is no question at all about whether to use cruise or torps. (Even though I use an Abaddon on my Blockades by now) Also, my example was explicitly for torps WITH 2 painters. If you don't use painters you should not use torps imho. Again this is probably less effective against Angels though since they generally have low sig. Otoh they are so easy to tank with DG Invuls that it should be no problem to actually use THREE painters :D But yeah, against angels cruise might be viable in more missions than against other NPCs. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Apertotes Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Seraphims have some 28K HP, you apparently forgot structure and tank (I use 60 for tank). you are right. still structure is a bliss. with no resistances it really doesnt mattter too much, but yes, tank is a different thing and i didnt count on it. what do you mean you use 60 for tank? still, cruisers do tank also, and with the higher resistance, each time they get a boost, it counts for more hp.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.27 17:38:00 - [28] Originally by: Apertotes Originally by: Leandro Salazar Seraphims have some 28K HP, you apparently forgot structure and tank (I use 60 for tank). you are right. still structure is a bliss. with no resistances it really doesnt mattter too much, but yes, tank is a different thing and i didnt count on it. what do you mean you use 60 for tank? still, cruisers do tank also, and with the higher resistance, each time they get a boost, it counts for more hp. 60 secs of tanking, which in case of the Angel Seraphim amounts to 3550.69/0.5112 = 5764 HP. Cruisers (not elite cruisers) tank much much less, for once beause the amount is lower and because their lifetime is much shorter. And structure may go down quickly, but it is still 5250 HP you HAVE to kill. Roughly 20% of the total effective HP, so it cannot be ignored. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Red Rumurder 5punkorp Betrayal Under Mayhem	Posted - 2007.08.27 18:00:00 - [29] i have recently trained up torps and played with enough set ups that I feel I can try and spread some light on this issue. BOTH situation dependent. (pve not pvp) I run missions 99% of time and have found the tougher missions, anything 6k LP or more Torps are sweet. Give me a cruiser - BS mission torps always. Then we have those stupid missions like massive attack where your flooded with little npc. Torps suck on them where the cruise annihilate them. I will not do the math crap for various reasons but missions with EoM, Angel, Gurista, Serp, Gallente where it is mainly Cruise/BC/BS torps. All others go cruise.
twit brent Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:31:00 - [30] You should all be glad that you dont have to use lasers. Tried a mission in my tachy abaddon with 3 dmg mods and the lasers drained over 80cap/s

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