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Jacob Holland
Gallente
19th Star Logistics
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:24:00 -
[91]
Didn't Ginger Magician lose a Nyx not that long ago? The Fleet which took him down were set up specifically for him and it did take a while to take him down but...
There was a video of it and everything...
--
 Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
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Voculus
E X O D U S
Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:43:00 -
[92]
Quote:
They cannot defend themselves against well organized, well armed gangs/blobs.
They don't have to. They can just cyno-jump out.
CCP need to make motherships vulnerable to warp-scrambling, or remove them from lo-sec altogether. My vote is to limit them to 0.0 only. Smartbombing shuttles and haulers in an unkillable ship is not PvP. It's called gaming the game, and it's bad for Eve.
_________________________________________________________
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.08.25 06:56:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 25/08/2007 06:56:41
Originally by: Tunak
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
Afther your opening phrases any argument you use has lost any value. "isk is free" my *****.
If your isk are soo free equip your whole corporation in officer gear and nuke that mom.
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Caligulus
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.08.25 09:11:00 -
[94]
The only real plausible answer is to remove super caps from low sec space. Monetary value in this extreme is an absurd rational for a super cap's ability to always fall back. Buying the top end equipment should give you a distinct advantage, but not to this extreme.
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Pan Crastus
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Posted - 2007.08.25 09:17:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Rei Sara
but keep in mind that somebody did spend -a lot- of money on that thing,
Also keep in mind that most of those people who solo pirate with motherships in lowsec are ISK buyers ...
this is a free post provided to you by a member of the EVE community.
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Amy Wang
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Posted - 2007.08.25 10:02:00 -
[96]
Easy solution:
Introduce module "Capital warp disruptor"
- can only be activated in low sec, not 0.0
- can only be fitted to interdictors
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MassonA
Caldari
coracao ardente
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.25 10:07:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Amy Wang
- can only be activated in low sec, not 0.0
the ****?!
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Steini OFSI
Gallente
Minigame
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:35:00 -
[98]
Motherships could be given base warp strength of let's say 25, you'd need at least dozen warp scramblers and a disruptor on the mom but it would be pinned down by a sizable fleet if no one is there to help it. And even so it should be able to kill those scrambling it.
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Steini OFSI
Gallente
Minigame
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:35:00 -
[99]
Motherships could be given base warp strength of let's say 25, you'd need at least dozen warp scramblers and a disruptor on the mom but it would be pinned down by a sizable fleet if no one is there to help it. And even so it should be able to kill those scrambling it.
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Lieutenant Seras
Minmatar
Sector 7
Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:40:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Rells
Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 19:35:50
Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00
Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24
I got to thinking
Stop doing that.
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Lieutenant Seras
Minmatar
Sector 7
Visions of Warfare
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Posted - 2007.08.25 11:40:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Rells
Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 19:35:50
Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00
Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24
I got to thinking
Stop doing that.
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Minmatar096773
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Posted - 2007.08.25 12:00:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Minmatar096773
No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
Do you have a problem reading? No amarr ship is invincible.
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Essque
Starlancers
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.08.25 12:00:00 -
[103]
Have you heard of Occam's razor ? Why make it so complicated when the answer is extremely simple.
Can a certain ship be killed in a certain area using "normal" game mechanics ? If the answer is yes, allow that ship in the said area. If the answer is no, then don't. Problem solved, no more "I win" buttons.
Dreads and Carriers aren't immune to EWAR, they should be allowed in low sec. Motherships and Titans can't even be build in low sec to my knowledge, can only be stopped with an Interdictor bubble, which again can be only deployed in 0.0, so why allow then in low sec in the first place ? Honestly, Motherships and Titans are tools to defend or conquer 0.0 space, there is absolutely no need for them to be used in low sec anyway. Have you ever heard of large fleet battles in low sec ( 300 vs 300, 0.0 style ) ? I haven't. Do you want to get rid of a POS in low sec ? Bring your Dreads and Carriers and blow it to pieces, no problem.
In my opinion, the current situation is a ballance error which the developers should look into A.S.A.P. and take the necessary measures.
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Anna Grahm
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.08.25 12:47:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Rells
There are alliances that got in on the ground floor of tech 2 (BoB for example) that have tens of trillions of isk[citation needed]. Cost isnt a factor. Even with the cost and even if you could warp scram them, the would still be bloody hard to kill. But at least it would be possible.
And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard.
fixed
I am NOT an alt! |
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.25 15:52:00 -
[105]
Edited by: RtoZ on 25/08/2007 15:52:34
With a big enough fleet it should be possible to kill one in lowsec if I read this thread right...
But it won't be a gank, it would be a fleet op. The steps required are the following:
1) Intel has to be done and maybe a first faux attempt at killing him has to be done, to check out where he has cyno alts. If said mothership is in a big alliance killing it becomes improbable, but it will show up in 0.0 later anyway, if it belongs to a smaller pirate corp or individual it becomes more viable. Once the cynos are known they have to be set as objectives and have to be hunted down.
2) The mothership has to be baited into coming into the open, where it has to be jumped with enough neut to stop it from jumping and with enough support so that losses will be replaced without it being able to get its cap back. It WILL kill ships during this phase, but if the neut pilots are smart they can scatter and get the fighters to follow them, which would reduce the mom pilot's options. You can't just take the number of ships you need to do the numbers, you need an extra contingent to act as a damage buffer so that the ships which are not under pressure can do their job, plus you need a few more to stand in when others run out of cap. A few dreads should start pounding it. Meanwhile the cyno alts have to be under pressure by a sizeable gang so that if they popup they get killed or pinpoint the next system the mom will be in, if it cynos under timer it won't be able to log off for a while, so there is a chance the aggressor fleet can make it there in time to continue the assault.
3) Rince and repeat as necessary untill the mom is out of options and has to make its last stand.
By no means easy but it should be possible. With the pricetags on these things I don't think it's gamebalance to make them easier to kill. They have their own little caveats, like being extremely slow and when you think about it they only have the damage output of two carriers, which for 20b+ isn't that good a deal. But it's also a pricetag big enough to justify their ewar immunity imo. Sure, an op like I described is a totally different methodology than just taking a target of opportunity, so it takes a different mindset. In short, killing Moms in lowsec is indeed impossible, but not for everyone. It takes resources, time and organisation. That is how it should be, again imo. I am pretty sure if Agony setup a mark, and put enough effort into it and loosely followed my MO here, they could get a lowsec momship kill eventually. If it is worth the time and effort is another issue, but imo it probably is, with the chance of them dropping 10b in mods being very real.
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Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:00:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Jacob Holland
Didn't Ginger Magician lose a Nyx not that long ago? The Fleet which took him down were set up specifically for him and it did take a while to take him down but...
There was a video of it and everything...
The closest ginger magician got to a Nyx got him perma banned
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Captian Internet
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:01:00 -
[107]
Originally by: RtoZ
Edited by: RtoZ on 25/08/2007 15:52:34
With a big enough fleet it should be possible to kill one in lowsec if I read this thread right...
But it won't be a gank, it would be a fleet op. The steps required are the following:
1) Intel has to be done and maybe a first faux attempt at killing him has to be done, to check out where he has cyno alts. If said mothership is in a big alliance killing it becomes improbable, but it will show up in 0.0 later anyway, if it belongs to a smaller pirate corp or individual it becomes more viable. Once the cynos are known they have to be set as objectives and have to be hunted down.
2) The mothership has to be baited into coming into the open, where it has to be jumped with enough neut to stop it from jumping and with enough support so that losses will be replaced without it being able to get its cap back. It WILL kill ships during this phase, but if the neut pilots are smart they can scatter and get the fighters to follow them, which would reduce the mom pilot's options. You can't just take the number of ships you need to do the numbers, you need an extra contingent to act as a damage buffer so that the ships which are not under pressure can do their job, plus you need a few more to stand in when others run out of cap. A few dreads should start pounding it. Meanwhile the cyno alts have to be under pressure by a sizeable gang so that if they popup they get killed or pinpoint the next system the mom will be in, if it cynos under timer it won't be able to log off for a while, so there is a chance the aggressor fleet can make it there in time to continue the assault.
3) Rince and repeat as necessary untill the mom is out of options and has to make its last stand.
By no means easy but it should be possible. With the pricetags on these things I don't think it's gamebalance to make them easier to kill. They have their own little caveats, like being extremely slow and when you think about it they only have the damage output of two carriers, which for 20b+ isn't that good a deal. But it's also a pricetag big enough to justify their ewar immunity imo. Sure, an op like I described is a totally different methodology than just taking a target of opportunity, so it takes a different mindset. In short, killing Moms in lowsec is indeed impossible, but not for everyone. It takes resources, time and organisation. That is how it should be, again imo. I am pretty sure if Agony setup a mark, and put enough effort into it and loosely followed my MO here, they could get a lowsec momship kill eventually. If it is worth the time and effort is another issue, but imo it probably is, with the chance of them dropping 10b in mods being very real.
Do it then master strategist
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HaulandHaul
Gallente
Caldari Deep Space Ventures
Caldari Deep Space Industral
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:17:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Imperius Blackheart
A few neuts, or at the moment nos... nothing is "unkillable" in lowsec, you just need some organisation and planning. A group of around 12 remote repping BS should be able to kill a momma in low sec.
The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again?
Shall we be rational here? Back up your claims. Flippant or trite answers wont solve the dilemma. Lets hear your battleplan for killing a MS in lowsec with "a few neuts" and "12 remote repping BS"
If u get 22billion isk of battleships together and all hit approach and all have a few energy neuts fitted.... Byebye mother****.
Nuff said
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Irob Urore
Amarr
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.08.25 16:29:00 -
[109]
super caps cant enter lowsec .. problem solved. 
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Steve Hawkings
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Posted - 2007.08.25 17:35:00 -
[110]
Quote:
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons:
1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
2. They are expensive to maintain (jump fuel, fighters, safe locations to hide it.)
This part amused me, Why should cost have anything to do with it ?
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heheheh
Singularity.
Fallen Souls
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Posted - 2007.08.25 17:39:00 -
[111]
Originally by: Xiaodown
Originally by: Captian Internet
1. Officer Smart Bombs
2.
3. Since you are such a master battle strategist oh wait who's alliance takes part in MOM camps in Aunenen(sp)wouldn't said strategy be null as you know what they are doing?
4. If you are so tough lets see you put this plan in action I want to see a wreck
Hey, I never said we weren't pirates. Check the TRI killboard; I was there last night with the Nyx popping everything that came through the gate. We were LOOKING FOR A CHALLENGE. Did you miss the part where we popped an officer fitted nightmare and a dread in 10 minutes?
If you manage to kill a mothership that someone is actively piloting, and not like a dumbass, in low sec, you did good. Period, whether it's from my alliance or not.
Oh, and officer smartbombs... yeah? So? Kills the frigs, as I said before. You gotta keep the frigs in there, warping in so he gets bumped and can't align. They're going to die. If you have enough of them, it would still accomplish the goal.
Honestly, though - if you just warped the cap-hungry battleships in, and I just ran the numbers - do you think a Mom can align for warp in 10 seconds or less? Cause, you can alpha hit it so that it can't cyno (44,500 cap, see above post). If you can manage to keep it so it can't align to warp for another 11 seconds... what's the cost to initiate warp in one of those things? What's it cost to keep the smartbombs running?
If you cap out a mothership, it's pretty vulnerable.
~Xiao
Xiao
Looking for a challenge at a low sec gate in a mom ?
how stupid can u get.
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Rells
Caldari
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
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Posted - 2007.08.26 20:55:00 -
[112]
Originally by: heheheh
Looking for a challenge at a low sec gate in a mom ?
how stupid can u get.
Dont ask questions you dont REALLY want answered. 
Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken! |
Lowanaera
Amarr
Paladin Imperium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2007.08.26 21:06:00 -
[113]
Originally by: RtoZ
Edited by: RtoZ on 25/08/2007 15:52:34
With a big enough fleet it should be possible to kill one in lowsec if I read this thread right...
But it won't be a gank, it would be a fleet op. The steps required are the following:
And where's the part of your plan that stops it from laughing at your fleet, warping to a safe, and cloaking?
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7shining7one7
Quafe Paladins
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:27:00 -
[114]
ideas forwarded to suggestions forum, please support if you feel something must be done.
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umop 3pisdn
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Rells
Originally by: Minmatar096773
No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip.
lol @ rells...
and now that they arent hard to kill in 0.0 as of Tuesday, we're only a few months of *****ing and whinging away from a low sec nerf of some kind... they will probably get relegated to 0.0 only with a storyline justification....
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.08.27 00:42:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 27/08/2007 00:42:31
nvm :) 3 more pages to read ;p
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vile56
Nubs.
D-L
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Posted - 2007.08.27 01:41:00 -
[117]
so... you want the ms to be abel to die in lowsec. well if we go the they can be bubbled/scrammed route, by 1 ship, then he would be stupid for not haveing scouts/support around. correct?
so the support ships would hear from the scouts 50 man fleet 1 jump out and he would cyno out(whos fault is this?) lets say they dont see the 50 man fleet they see local riseing and cynos poping up they focus all energy on killing the tacklers, which they do and he jumps out (whos fault is this?)
its more of the pilot not being stupid instead of a omghax ship. he can cyno on a whim whenever he wants and if cap ships can be scramed damped ect then it will be a alliance op of 2-3 scouts per system. once again not the ships fault.
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Sig removed. Is in appropriate for the forums. mail us with a link if you want to know why -Kaemonn ([email protected]) |
RtoZ
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:22:00 -
[118]
The part where it has no cap... I never said it was easy though, I fully realise the task it is to organise a fleet, bait the mothership and be lucky enough for the timing to be good enough to get rid of all his cap in one pass and still have surplass people to keep it there as he fights back. It is pretty improbable, even with all the people assembled it's probably a less than 10% chance of success, then there is lag issues... but the mothership does have to run, because he knows if he stays just a bit too long he will die, and those things are slooow. Try and get the bait to bump him around a bit to mess up the warp outs and have people organised so if he warps to a system object people warp in at all distances so he dosen't get away easily.
But yes, pretty remote chance, I will agree to that. Impossible? Well, It's possible under the current game design, hypothetically, I'll let the people who actually command fleets debate on whether it is possible in reality or possibly come up with some other approach...
Also ask yourselves this, if you allow these things to be scrambled in low sec don't they become just a tad easy?
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Wigglytuff
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:29:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Derovius Vaden
Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons:
1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship)
Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk.
isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power.
To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die. Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money.
Once again, more expensive = harder to die.
A Raven costs more than 10x as much as a Caracal, are you telling me the Raven should be able to take down 10 caracals ?
Or that a Megathron should be able to take on a dozen Thoraxes?
SO by your logic it should be 15-20x harder to kill a MS than a dread or Carrier, and 2-3x as hard to kill a Titan as a MS.
The MS problem is due to a flaw in CCP's planning, or they honestly think it makes sense, in which case they're just being silly. However bubbles in lowsec is a bad idea unless sentries kill them, and even then, the day bubbles work in lwsec is the day lowsec is dead.
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Hyuuga Veralis
Pator Tech School
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Posted - 2007.08.27 02:40:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:16:45
Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:10:43
Edited by: Hayah Theos on 24/08/2007 21:09:32
Originally by: Tunak
Originally by: Hayah Theos
Now if only they could be honest enough to embrace the fact that the economic resource distribution in the game is fatally flawed too. I mean, just how is it that ANY new force in the game will ever be able to compete with established zero alliances? (And by new, I mean anyone other than the BORG). From reading this thread it is obvious that those here seem to think 25 billion isk is "chump change". How out of touch with reality these veterans are. I am sure it is the BORG's reality, since they have the major resource points of the game in their hip pocket. Eve needs serious game model resource rebalancing or it is doomed to become a shrinking "veteran's only" playpen.
Old I am. Out of touch I am not. 100M a day is easy. 1B a week is doable if you're hardcore, with less than 6M skill points. Heck you could do it with much less than that SP wise but it would take more work to get up to that level.
Those numbers are completely engine money. Created out of nothing. Not dependent on other players in any way. Risking nothing more than a shuttle. Courier mission revamp, lp store, and R&D are all newer and very lucrative. The "BORG" didn't have access to them. Granted the R&D cash is player dependent but it's just icing on the cake. Something to do while you raise massive faction to exploit.
Remember kids it doesn't matter what your corp standing is as long as their faction loves you.
*******************
Out of touch, YOU ARE!
Tell me again how you achieve the above without T2 BPO's or Capital Ship "NPC market exploit haulers", none of which is available to the AVERAGE pilot of Eve. Then tell us all about how you don't have a death-grip on 10/10 Complexes...
You people are so transparent and self-serving.
Your very response bespeaks your BORGness...
Can run a lvl 4 GE in about 2 hours, maybe less, using a Nighthawk. It's faster on a Raven due to higher DPS, and a GE 4 is 25-30mil isk. Massive Attack and Assault are an easy 10-15million in an hour. If you're pulling 5k or more LP for those 'top end' missions, then that's an extra several million per mission due to what you can get to sell.
100m a day is more than possible for a person who runs missions heavily every day, or mines even a mid-level ore like Omber or Kernite in a barge or BS with maybe a hauler alt, or a hauler of their own with good cargo space (12k+). Use secure containers, and thieves are a non-issue. Trading, well, grab a freighter, hit one of the nice empire routes and make over 100m easily, but you need a few billion to begin with.
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