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I wonder when CCP will remove invincible ships.

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Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:23:00 - [1] Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:27:00 Edited by: Rells on 24/08/2007 18:25:24 I got to thinking about this last night when a corp mate got blown up by a smartbombing mothership in lowsec. The corp mate only lost a shuttle and his clone, no implants so he laughed but the discussion started around the incident. We basically came to the conclusion that it was nearly impossible to kill a mothership in lowsec. It is, an unkillable weapon and when used by pirates, an immense edge on others. Now dont get me wrong, Im not anti-pirate or anti-pvp by far. I just think invincible "I win" buttons are not healthy for eve. In lowsec you cant bubble the mothership or tackle it because it is immune to ewar. You cant scramble it or hold it or damp or jam it. You cant web it or stop it in any way. In addition, you cant stop the fighters, they warp out of bubbles, cant be warp scrambled, and are immune to damps and ECM. It begs the question of how you kill the bloody thing. Well first of all you will need to get a bubble on it because if you cant hold it then it will just warp away. CCP once proposed that you "bump it with a bunch of dreads" but that is patently rediculous. First of all a dread not do so much damage over a BS when out of siege mode and when they are in siege mode, they cant move at all. And lets face it, a dread is not exactly speedy out of siege mode. But hey, lets assume I get enough BS in the system to bump the guy ... WHOOOOOSH ... "what happened?" ... "oh ... he Cynoed out". The fact that wrecks and corpses will soon be immaterial means you cant even surround it with corps piles to try and keep it from aligning (the way goonfleet killed a mothership) The fact is you cant deploy bubbles in lowsec so you cant stop him from cynoing or warping. Even with interdiction bubbles in 0.0 you have are going to have to be a lot of them because the mothership will have faction or officer smartbombs and be radiating out from the MODEL, not the center of the ship. So ... how many battleships does it take to alphastrike a mothership again? This is just stupidly rediculous and it burns me that CCP is making changes that are nerfing people right and left when the things that REALLY need nerfage are being buffed and made even more unkillable. I wonder how long it is before there are camps of 10 motherships on lowsec chokes messing up the game. Although Eve is the best MMOG out there, I sometimes wonder how development priorities are set. EVERYTHING should be killable. THere should be no "i win" buttons in eve. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Minmatar096773	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:27:00 - [2] No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:28:00 - [3] It is a bit silly that you must resort to bumping a MS in lowsec to even have a chance of killing it... But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:29:00 - [4] Originally by: Minmatar096773 No amarr ship is invincible. Their blood will spill. Uhh ... what the heck kind of reply is this supposed to be. If you are asserting an Amarr mothership is invincible, lets have a rational argument buddy. A little fact and reasoning is what is called for here, not some silly quip. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:31:00 - [5] I wrote it already several times and I write it again: no supercapital should be allowed in empire space!
Imperius Blackheart Caldari Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:31:00 - [6] A few neuts, or at the moment nos... nothing is "unkillable" in lowsec, you just need some organisation and planning. A group of around 12 remote repping BS should be able to kill a momma in low sec.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:31:00 - [7] Edited by: DubanFP on 24/08/2007 18:31:30 ___________ Xanstin> Your sig is full of really, really crap self quotes. DubanFP> Happy now that i have your quote included?
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Kruel It is a bit silly that you must resort to bumping a MS in lowsec to even have a chance of killing it... But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain. There are alliances that got in on the ground floor of tech 2 (BoB for example) that have tens of trillions of isk. Cost isnt a factor. Even with the cost and even if you could warp scram them, the would still be bloody hard to kill. But at least it would be possible. And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rei Sara Duty.	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:34:00 - [9] Originally by: Rells And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard. Get some battleships with heavy cap neutralizers on it and it won't be cynoing. - - - - I always hoped I'd get my sig modded... Then I realized I didn't have one.
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:34:00 - [10] Originally by: Imperius Blackheart A few neuts, or at the moment nos... nothing is "unkillable" in lowsec, you just need some organisation and planning. A group of around 12 remote repping BS should be able to kill a momma in low sec. The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again? Shall we be rational here? Back up your claims. Flippant or trite answers wont solve the dilemma. Lets hear your battleplan for killing a MS in lowsec with "a few neuts" and "12 remote repping BS" Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:35:00 - [11] Originally by: Rei Sara Originally by: Rells And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard. Get some battleships with heavy cap neutralizers on it and it won't be cynoing. Again, you will need A LOT of neuts to attack it and get it that far. You are assuming he doesnt have injectors or high recharge, doesnt have support and doesnt attack your battleships iwht 15 fighters. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Tunak	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:37:00 - [12] Originally by: Kruel But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain. You should. The cost of an item is _never_ an excuse for it being powerful. Any player can buy a mothership if they so choose.
Rei Sara Duty.	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:37:00 - [13] Edited by: Rei Sara on 24/08/2007 18:38:06 Originally by: Rells The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again? Maybe it would take more than "a few", but keep in mind that somebody did spend -a lot- of money on that thing, so you're going to have to have a decent investment in the force that's taking it down. Maybe it takes more than a dozen battleships, but I'm betting the exact amount it would take isn't unreasonable relative to the value of that mothership. Edit: Ah, posted immediately after someone refuting the value of the vessel being a basis for strength. Gotta love it. - - - - I always hoped I'd get my sig modded... Then I realized I didn't have one.
Kaar Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:47:00 - [14] you should be able to kill them with a destroyer gang! --- ---
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:52:00 - [15] Hi Rells. I am glad you bring this subject up. The horrors of mums in low-secs are indeed scary thoughts. I think CCP should balance the game in the sense that anything bigger than a battleship must be made a 0.0 object. It should be done that people who are looking for fights should be fighting in 0.0 space and people who do not wish to fight can still play freely in high-secs. Low-secs should be in between i.e. people will at most engage battleships. It would be an intermediary level for people learning to fight and 0.0 would be for crazy hard core players. Only people in 0.0 have the resources to kill mums to be honest. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:55:00 - [16] Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship) 2. They are expensive to maintain (jump fuel, fighters, safe locations to hide it.) 3. They are very team dependent; if there is no one online with cyno ready to save it, its not going anywhere. 4. They cannot defend themselves against well organized, well armed gangs/blobs. Now, in terms of sheer cost, having 5 billion ISK in battleships chase around a 25-35 billion ISK mothership, the mothership should win/get out 99.9% of the time. Anyone and their mother (no pun intended) can build battleships, and no one is losting to siege your POS because you're pumping out ravens by the dozen. Motherships on the other hand have a great big "OMGBLWZMEUPPLZ" sticker on their capital ship assembly array. If there were as many motherships as there are battleships, than their survivability would be a problem. As it stands, I see nothing wrong with what happened. The OP is just mad because he lost, not because its impossible. Impossible would be for the mothership to destroy all of you, cyno out, and station camp you. That would be impossible my friend.
Necronomicon Caldari KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.24 18:59:00 - [17] Why not just do what most sensible people do. Log on Check map See blob/deaths Stay away from area. Yes, camping LS with Super Caps is hella HELLA lame, but you pays your isk and makes your choice, they just have more isk than you. Carlsberg dont make Eve Pilots, but if they did, i wouldnt be one of them.
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:00:00 - [18] Originally by: Rells Originally by: Kruel It is a bit silly that you must resort to bumping a MS in lowsec to even have a chance of killing it... But on the other hand it costs billions, so I don't really complain. There are alliances that got in on the ground floor of tech 2 (BoB for example) that have tens of trillions of isk. Cost isnt a factor. Even with the cost and even if you could warp scram them, the would still be bloody hard to kill. But at least it would be possible. And as I illustrated bumping in lowsec wont kill the ship. It can just cyno out. It might work in 0.0 if you can keep bubbles on it but that iwll be hard. yeah were'd i put my "trillions" lol....
Spenz Gallente Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:00:00 - [19] Edited by: Spenz on 24/08/2007 19:01:56 Originally by: Rei Sara Get some battleships with heavy cap neutralizers on it and it won't be cynoing. If the devs said it was possible for a titan to cyno out a few seconds after a DDD no matter how much cap it took, can you imagine how many battleships with neuts will be needed to keep a mothership from cynoing? You would need to be able to nuke its cap twice over, and stagger that so that when one group is going through its cycle the other can take over neutralizing. In essence, killing a mothership in low-sec has some pretty unrealistic demands. Of course said mothership pilots claim there is a way to kill them, but they wont tell. They all talk likes it been done before when it hasnt. Except for corpse bumping, which is being removed, there is really no realistic way of killing a lowsec mothership other than pilot stupidity. If I had an Alt I would probably post with it...
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Rells Lets hear your battleplan for killing a MS in lowsec You said it yourself: Fixing low sec MS is a combination of blanket EWAR immunity (a very exceptional and arbitrary bonus) coupled with half-done carrier mechanics and perhaps the priority of cloaks. CCP needs to re-evaulite fighters thanks to their ability to effectively teleport unimpeded and decide if they are drones that share the vulnerabilities of regular drones or are they quasi-drones that need a more comprehensive ruleset. Atleast this would represent a small step in defanging the MS and reducing them to smartbomb antics. Those claiming the cost to produce one merits the immunity need a reality check--Eve is about trade off and opportunity cost. When we speak of virtually every other ship class and weapon there are a range of options with relatiely unique benefits and drawbacks, you can empirically say a close range mega has more dps than a pulse geddon on top of other claims. Given that no other ship class enjoys such a bonus and as such we have no reliable frame of comparision to talk about immunity should confirm how out of place it is. Add to that the pilot could make many mistakes and still fall back to one of his many cyno alts and you have a gamebreaking scenario where escape is always possible. Rells, you and Bein Glorious should team up and write the MS lowsec revision manifesto--it worked for scaling back doomsdays. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
Aceoil Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:01:00 - [21] Has a MS ever been destroyed in lowsec?
Divideby0 Gallente Amalgamated Industries	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:04:00 - [22] Perhaps things might get balanced once CCP implements the targeting of subsystems. If anything they should START implementing this on the larger ships then incorporate it into the smaller vessels once they work the kinks out. Who is the bigger carebear: The miner who braves lowsec on his own, or the "PvPer" who attacks an unarmed ship? I support the f
Tunak	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:06:00 - [23] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship) Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk. isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power. To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less?
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:08:00 - [24] I think motherships have the right vulnerability compared to their cost. Right now , it's too risky to use titans in combat. I don't think motherships need to be nerfed for now. The problem comes from local , the mothership has more than enough time to warp or jump out when local numbers grow enough to be a threat. Without this intel , you could sneak on the mothership or set a trap with cloaked ships. Changing local would be a more elegant solution and put an end to the ridiculous logging raven risk free ratting/farming. Void bombs would be nice to ambush motherships , if they neutralized an adequate amount of cap. Blame CCP for pre-nerfing them Originally by: Cipher7 If you manage to get baited, what's your skill, being a good victim?
John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:08:00 - [25] Motherships cost about 17.5B isk to make btw. Mother ship and titans should be able to fire weapons or deploy fighters in empire nor be able to be targeted in my opinion. It allows for tose ships to travel through empire space but not interact. Your quite right you can not kill a mothership in low sec. you can't ew it, you can't scramble you can't bubble. They can cyno and warp at will. I know my alliance droped 50 b.s. and 20 dreads on top of a mothership in low sec that was camping oijnane (right before BWF system of geminate that we live in). The guy had a reapier and a mothership. He kept shield reping his reapier and killing off the b.s. After about the 10th b.s. loss and no way to kill the guy we gave up.. We warped the dreads in and some times sieged and some items did not trying differnt things. We had many b.s. setup with all neutralizers. I don't care how much a ship cost there should be a way to destroy it and when mothership is in low sec there isn't.
Derovius Vaden	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:09:00 - [26] Originally by: Tunak Originally by: Derovius Vaden Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship) Again this is not a valid reason. isk cannot be used as a measure of power. With less than 5 mil sp you can run level 4 missions with no in game risk and earn an unlimited amount of isk. isk is free. Acquiring a large amount of isk is not an achievement. Therefore it cannot be used to measure power. To further illustrate the point. Now that HACs have dramatically dropped in cost are they less powerful? Now that a miner 2 cost nothing compared to what they originally sold for do they mine less? Its not a matter of power; motherships are not solo-pwnmobiles and they never will be. Its a matter of value. If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die. Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money. Once again, more expensive = harder to die.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:11:00 - [27] Originally by: Rei Sara Edited by: Rei Sara on 24/08/2007 18:38:06 Originally by: Rells The MS would just warp. And 12 BS wouldnt ***** the tank of a Mothership. Not even close. Unless the MS pilot was a complete moron. Furthermore, "a few neuts" ? How much cap does a MS have again? Maybe it would take more than "a few", but keep in mind that somebody did spend -a lot- of money on that thing, so you're going to have to have a decent investment in the force that's taking it down. Maybe it takes more than a dozen battleships, but I'm betting the exact amount it would take isn't unreasonable relative to the value of that mothership. Edit: Ah, posted immediately after someone refuting the value of the vessel being a basis for strength. Gotta love it. in that conclusion you think that a titan should win 1 vs. 90 cap ships :S NO
Rells Caldari Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:11:00 - [28] Originally by: Derovius Vaden Motherships are meant to be difficult to kill, for the following reasons: 1. They cost in excess of 25 billion (in excess because 25 bil is just the ship) 2. They are expensive to maintain (jump fuel, fighters, safe locations to hide it.) 3. They are very team dependent; if there is no one online with cyno ready to save it, its not going anywhere. 4. They cannot defend themselves against well organized, well armed gangs/blobs. Now, in terms of sheer cost, having 5 billion ISK in battleships chase around a 25-35 billion ISK mothership, the mothership should win/get out 99.9% of the time. Anyone and their mother (no pun intended) can build battleships, and no one is losting to siege your POS because you're pumping out ravens by the dozen. Motherships on the other hand have a great big "OMGBLWZMEUPPLZ" sticker on their capital ship assembly array. If there were as many motherships as there are battleships, than their survivability would be a problem. As it stands, I see nothing wrong with what happened. The OP is just mad because he lost, not because its impossible. Impossible would be for the mothership to destroy all of you, cyno out, and station camp you. That would be impossible my friend. You always have someone that doesnt even read the post or has such low reading skills that they miss the content. No one said for a second, surely not me, that they should be easily killable. No one is debating that they should be difficult to kill. I am debating that they are IMPOSSIBLE to kill. And for the record, I have personally never lost a single ship against a Mothership and the corp pilot in question only lost a shuttle and his pod so you can stow the "sour grapes" argument in the rear cargo hold. Now lets address your points with rational thought, not sillyness (im not in the mood). 1) 25 Bil is not that hard to get. It is a fairly small sum. I would say that anyone with the skill capability to fly the ship should have the ability to make 25 bil far in advance of the actual finishing of the skills. I know traders and miners that make that in 2 months on the market with tech 2 bpos. There are organizations in the game where 25 bil is a drop in the bucket. Further you only need soverignty to build it, not to fly it so that isnt an argument either. THere are half a dozen organization in the game that will build you one for a fee. 2) They arent that expensive because there deployed firepower and escapability is extreme. The fact is that they cant be pinned down and stopped and jump fuel is 10 isk to the mothership pilot. As for a "safe location" all you have to do is deploy a small control tower with a day of fuel and stront and yo uare safe. Most mothership pilots, however, never get out of the hsip and they vanish in space and can just evade capture to remove agression and get logged off. 3) Any mothership pilot will have a cyno alt so that argument is patently stupid. 4) They can defend themselves just fine. You cant ewar them as you would a carrier, they are free to send out fighters in mass and slaughter attackers. They can warp away from dreads in siege mode and they can jsut pop the battleships right and left and warp out when they get below comfort level. Killing a station sitting carrier is POSSIBLE if extremely hard. Killing a mothership in low sec is not possible. Four years is long enough to leave the corp interface broken!
Rei Sara Duty.	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:13:00 - [29] Originally by: Spenz If the devs said it was possible for a titan to cyno out a few seconds after a DDD no matter how much cap it took, can you imagine how many battleships with neuts will be needed to keep a mothership from cynoing? I'm stuck at work at the moment, so I can't run the numbers, but I'd really be interested in seeing exactly how much cap you'd have to keep siphoned off a mothership (assuming a pilot with all relevant skills maxed) to prevent it from jumping. It's probably an intimidating number, but I bet it's not as insurmountable as one might think. Keep in mind that if you're actually engaging the mothership with an appropriate force you should be doing enough damage that they're burning a fair bit of their own cap keeping their tank up. - - - - I always hoped I'd get my sig modded... Then I realized I didn't have one.
Tunak	Posted - 2007.08.24 19:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Derovius Vaden If someone pays 5x more for their pew-pew ship, they should be 5x less likely to die. So if I pay 250m for a Curse and you pay 50m for a Curse I should be able to beat you 84% of the time? How does that work exactly? Quote: Else, if we follow what you're suggesting, all the motherships will be blown to hell and back within a week, and no one will buy new ones because they are a waste of money. I'm not saying that at all. Please show where I say motherships should not be powerful. My only point is that isk cost cannot be a value of strength. Quote: Once again, more expensive = harder to die. So a jaguar that costs 16m has 2x as many hp as a jaguar that costs 8m? Does it do 2x as much damage?

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