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Fixing subpar faction ships: The Nightmare and Fleet Tempest need love

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Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:53:00 - [1] These two ships really have performance issues compared to the other faction ships which are great in their own light. And the fixes would be very simple actually: Fleet pest just needs a 7th turret hardpoint and ~2500 extra grid so that it can fit 7 1400 IIs with one RCU2. If you have to, steal one of its meds or lows, though I think even with 7 turrets and 6+6 med+low it would only be decent, not overpowered. Nightmare is a bit harder, but what I would like to see is this: Change both RoF bonuses into 7.5% damage bonuses (needs to be 7.5% to acount for the 4+4 layout). That would only increase the actual dps by 3%, but would reduce laser cap need by 33% and also reduce missile ammo consumption. With the reduced cap need for lasers, the -50% laser cap bonus for just 4 lasers is not really needed anymore and could be replaced with a +50% missile velocity bonus which would benefit the 4 launchers a LOT more than the laser cap bonus benefits the lasers. To top it off, add some 60 CPU to mitigate fitting issues. Et voila, one ship turned from ugly stepchild into something unique, and another turned from a mediorce performance eyecatcher into a true beauty. Yes I know the Navy poc could use a but of oomph too, but if and when CCP fixes the standard Apoc the Navy one hopefully gets a dose of that too so no point in a premature boost imho. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.27 10:58:00 - [2] what about bhaalgorn ? -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:00:00 - [3] Originally by: LUKEC what about bhaalgorn ? All the Amarr faction ships suck, basically.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:08:00 - [4] Well, if the Bhaalgorn is not fixed along with the nos nerf, that needs to be done too, but it is a new development brought about by a fresh nerf, so I did not mention it here. The problems of the Fleet Pest and Nightmare are age old... Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:20:00 - [5] All the faction ships need love. They dont stand up to the tier 3 ships, except maybe the CNR, which is special and designed to be the best. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Fon Revedhort Aeria Gloris Inc United Legion	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:28:00 - [6] Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 27/08/2007 11:29:04 Missile velocity bonus will make Mare just too Raven-style imo %) Why should a Sansha's ship have 2 missile bonuses and only one applied to lasers? Yeah, current 50% cap reduction bogus kinda sux, but at least it is applied to the proper (RP-wise) weapons I do support the idea of boosting DPS bonuses, though. And CPU increament is really needed badly! Seems that it is the only ship totally unable to fit tech2 guns/launchers. I'd also like my Nightmare to swap this laser cap reduction bonus to a tanking one - repper efficiency, repper cap use reduction, whatever. Anything hot and unusual (/me points at Vindicator) will do. ---
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.27 11:37:00 - [7] Originally by: Fon Revedhort Edited by: Fon Revedhort on 27/08/2007 11:29:04 Missile velocity bonus will make Mare just too Raven-style imo %) Why should a Sansha's ship have 2 missile bonuses and only one applied to lasers? Yeah, current 50% cap reduction bogus kinda sux, but at least it is applied to the proper (RP-wise) weapons I do support the idea of boosting DPS bonuses, though. And CPU increament is really needed badly! Seems that it is the only ship totally unable to fit tech2 guns/launchers. I'd also like my Nightmare to swap this laser cap reduction bonus to a tanking one - repper efficiency, repper cap use reduction, whatever. Anything hot and unusual (/me points at Vindicator) will do. Thing is, lasers (especially just four of them with no RoF bonus) without cap bonus work fine, but missiles (especially torps) without velocity bonus kinda suck. When my phoon spams its torps I keep on thinking that maybe it would help if I ejected and gave them a lil shove... I don't think RP reasons should be used to gimp a ship. And if only one missile bonus is allowed, I would actually prefer the velocity one over the damage one. But that would make it pretty sucky dps-wise. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.08.27 12:32:00 - [8] Originally by: Jim McGregor All the faction ships need love. They dont stand up to the tier 3 ships, except maybe the CNR, which is special and designed to be the best. The Vindicator is still really good. It's a super-Mega with lots more hitpoints and capacitor.
Jim McGregor	Posted - 2007.08.27 12:33:00 - [9] Originally by: Xequecal Originally by: Jim McGregor All the faction ships need love. They dont stand up to the tier 3 ships, except maybe the CNR, which is special and designed to be the best. The Vindicator is still really good. It's a super-Mega with lots more hitpoints and capacitor. Well, its gallente, so... Anyway, if they buff the other faction ships, they need to buff the Vindi as well to keep it at the top. --- Originally by: CCP Wrangler You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, thats what hello kitty online is for.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:21:00 - [10] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 27/08/2007 15:24:19 Split weapon system is always a mess somehow, maybe adding turret and/or launcher hardpoints will be more beneficial. I mean the rattlesnake has bonuses for a split weaponsystem but I don't think anyone ever fits less than 6 launchers on it. And nobody ever complains about the Rattlesnake either... Personnaly I find the whole split system a bit odd for the Sansha's shipline, they use lasers a lot more than missiles. Replace the launcher bonus with something else and add more turret hardpoints would make me happier. Could add a tracking disruptor bonus instead, though fairly useless in PvE it would be interesting in PvP. Or, to give it more of a caldari feel, a range bonus for lasers.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:27:00 - [11] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Split weapon system is always a mess somehow, maybe adding turret and/or launcher hardpoints will be more beneficial. I mean the rattlesnake has bonuses for a split weaponsystem but I don't think anyone ever fits less than 6 launchers on it. And nobody ever complains about the Rattlesnake either... Personnaly I find the whole split system a bit odd for the Sansha's shipline, they use lasers a lot more than missiles. Replace the launcher bonus with something else and add more turret hardpoints would make me happier. Could add a tracking disruptor bonus instead, though fairly useless in PvE it would be interesting in PvP. I would like to complain about the Rattlesnake. The hybrid bonus is worthless because there's no grid to fit hybrid weapons. That means it's a CNR with one less launcher, less CPU, and 1500 more shields. And it costs twice as much. I think I'll stick with the CNR. Nightmare just needs more CPU. Yes, it wouldn't be a damage machine, but it's still 8 large weapons with RoF bonus. Low cap use, 8 low slots, and 12750 base armor would make it rather ridiculous if the DPS output was brought up too much. It's basically got a free plate and you could dual-rep the thing with few problems, one of the VERY few battleships that can be dual-repped effectively.
Captain Schmungles Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:35:00 - [12] Originally by: LUKEC what about bhaalgorn ? Blood Raider ships will continue to get nos bonuses, but some of those bonuses (range, etc.) will apply to neuts as well to keep the nos nerf from making them totally useless.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:44:00 - [13] Originally by: Xequecal I would like to complain about the Rattlesnake. The hybrid bonus is worthless because there's no grid to fit hybrid weapons. So basicly the same problem as the Nightmare which doesn't have enough CPU to fit launchers. Originally by: Xequecal Nightmare just needs more CPU. Yes, it wouldn't be a damage machine, but it's still 8 large weapons with RoF bonus. Low cap use, 8 low slots, and 12750 base armor would make it rather ridiculous if the DPS output was brought up too much. It's basically got a free plate and you could dual-rep the thing with few problems, one of the VERY few battleships that can be dual-repped effectively. Adding CPU would only make the fit cheaper, it wouldn't really make the fit better unless you curently are using a co-processor, which I always tried to avoid.
iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:50:00 - [14] navy poc blows also ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.08.27 15:50:00 - [15] You cannot get any kind of decent PvP setup on the Nightmare ATM with siege launchers. Even if you use faction siege it still doesn't work. You have 12 mid/low slots to fill with only 274 CPU to work with after 4x MP II and 4x True Sansha Siege. Even if I use faction hardeners (16 CPU) I run out after filling just the low slots, and that's accepting a single-rep tank and all faction damage mods. I'm out of CPU and still haven't filled a SINGLE mid slot, which start out requiring 75 CPU for MWD and 44 for Warp Disruptor. The only way to get a halfway decent setup is to use faction CRUISE launchers, and even then you can't get MWD/web/scram/injector on it without a co-processor. On the Rattlesnake, at least, you can get a "decent" setup with 6 launchers and an amazing shield tank. It's just flat out worse than the CNR is the problem.
Mastin Dragonfly Absolutely No Return The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:10:00 - [16] Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 27/08/2007 16:11:01 Well, apart from the fitting issues, in it's current state I see no reason to use it in PvP since it has no benefit over far cheaper alternatives like the geddon. Only thing that makes it unique is it's split system which is only a downside. The Vindi, Machariel and Bhaalgorn (till tomorrow at least) have specific bonuses or stats that make them worthwhile to use in PvP. But using a very expensive ship that handicaps you just for the hell of it doesn't make much sense. Nightmare would need more than just added CPU to make it useful for PvP imho.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:29:00 - [17] Originally by: Mastin Dragonfly Edited by: Mastin Dragonfly on 27/08/2007 16:11:01 Well, apart from the fitting issues, in it's current state I see no reason to use it in PvP since it has no benefit over far cheaper alternatives like the geddon. Only thing that makes it unique is it's split system which is only a downside. The Vindi, Machariel and Bhaalgorn (till tomorrow at least) have specific bonuses or stats that make them worthwhile to use in PvP. But using a very expensive ship that handicaps you just for the hell of it doesn't make much sense. Nightmare would need more than just added CPU to make it useful for PvP imho. It uses less cap and has a FAR better tank than the geddon, whether passive or active. It's not a ship you would go to when you're trying to ***** out max DPS at the expense of everything else. That doesn't make it bad. It just needs more CPU to be useable.
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:30:00 - [18] The Dramiel needs loving too, its horrible ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
Mudkest MetaForge Ekliptika	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:34:00 - [19] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: LUKEC what about bhaalgorn ? All the Amarr faction ships suck, basically. that's an unfair prejudice! it's not just the amar faction ships ... ----- GIEV custom ship paint jobs! I want my hello-kitty-kessie!
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.27 16:56:00 - [20] I have to agree with Fon that having 2 missile bonuses would be a bit bad in RP terms. The damage bonuses instead of RoF though... that would be awesome. I used to really want a Nightmare but now the Abaddon has made it obsolete. --- Proud Amarr pilot.

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