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Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:29:00 - [1] I just happened to come upon the excel sheet I made a bit ago that normalizes all weapon damage, factoring in ship bonuses, numer of slots, reload time etc. I freshened it up a bit, and projectile T1 ammo looks even worse than ever. The gist of it is this: Currently, with 44 damage as the top projectile ammo while the other gun types have 48: Battleships: Average rail ships have 28% more dps, beams have 64% more dps, cruise missiles have 1% more dps than average arty ships. Blaster ships have 44% more dps, pulses have 33% more dps, torps have 3% less dps than ACs. Cruisers: Rail ships have 12% more dps, beams have 51% more dps, cruise missiles have 34% more dps than arties. Blaster ships have 23% more dps, pulses have 20% more dps, torps have 15% more dps than ACs. And this is not even counting the fact that the top ammo splits itself over 3 damage types, while the really good concentrated ammos (PP and fusion) are only 40 damage. Now if the best ammo did 48 damage like all others, it would change to: Battleships: Rail ships have 18% more dps, beams have 50% more dps, cruise missiles have 7% less dps than arties. Blaster ships have 32% more dps, pulses have 22% more dps, torps have 10% less dps than ACs. Cruisers: Rail ships have 3% more dps, beams have 38% more dps, cruise missiles have 23% more dps than arties. Blaster ships have 13% more dps, pulses have 10% more dps, torps have 5% more dps than ACs. Imho the latter is a lot more reasonable. As would be to make the 48 damage ammo fusion, with emphasis on exp as the minmatar and angel racial damage, and the jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none EMP only the 2nd best damage ammo. I know that projectiles eat no cap which is a decent advantage. But the dps disadvantage with current ammo is to profound, and imho with 48 damage ammo it would be perfectly in line with the advantage of not using cap. That the T2 minmatar ammo does NOT suffer from the top end damage nerf kinda proves the point as well. So please unnerf the T1 ammo. The numbers this is based off can be found here Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
TheEndofTheWorld	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:34:00 - [2] Do Minmatar gun boats need a boost? Do they? No. Forget it.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:38:00 - [3] Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:41:00 - [4] Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? Last time I checked, hail was not a T1 ammo. Next? Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Rastigan Caldari Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:48:00 - [5] Edited by: Rastigan on 28/08/2007 12:50:23 Did you base your damage calculations using the double damage bonus ROF/DMG that many Minmatar ships have ? More than any other race ? Who has a Cruiser,Battlecruser, and a Battleship with these bonuses ? Minmatar. A Tempests 1400mm gun does 9% more DPS over a Megathrons 425mm rail. (with T1 AMMO) It also does over 100% more in Alpha strike damage , and uses 100000000000000000000% less cap.. OMG NERF MATAR AMMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
arbalesttom	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:50:00 - [6] At least you dont use cap
Goshinko	Posted - 2007.08.28 12:52:00 - [7] Oh my goodness, someone would have to be such a brave person to fly these minmatar ships with such a SEVERE DPS disadvantage, what with Minmatar being miles above Amarr and Caldari for PvP. **** T1 Minmatar ammo. Right in the buns, and I fly Minmatar.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:09:00 - [8] I'll be quite happy to see an extra 4 points of damage on the best large projectile ammunition, just as soon as projectiles are changed to cost an obscene amount of capacitor to fire. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:16:00 - [9] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/08/2007 13:16:41 Originally by: Rastigan Edited by: Rastigan on 28/08/2007 12:50:23 Did you base your damage calculations using the double damage bonus ROF/DMG that many Minmatar ships have ? More than any other race ? Who has a Cruiser,Battlecruser, and a Battleship with these bonuses ? Minmatar. A Tempests 1400mm gun does 9% more DPS over a Megathrons 425mm rail. (with T1 AMMO) It also does over 100% more in Alpha strike damage , and uses 100000000000000000000% less cap.. OMG NERF MATAR AMMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wish people would at least try to comprehend posts before making silly replies. You can download and look at the excel file and you will see that I did figure those things in. But I guess that is too much to ask off a Goon... And yes on a per gun basis projectile guns might do more, but you also have to figure in the amount of turret hardpoints the ships offer, which is also something I did. And yes, some (certainly not all) Minmatar ships are great in PvP. But that is to a large part due to T2 ammo. The T1 stuff is gimped. If people think it is not, maybe CCP should reduce T2 minmatar ammo damage by 8.33% as well to be in line with the fine T1 ammo... Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
El Da Nova Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:16:00 - [10] I fly minmatar myself and I think they are just fine. We don't use cap and we got bonusses on our ships. And did you ever have a minmatar pilot hear complaining about their guns, geusss not.
Noxious IV Militaris	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:23:00 - [11] Yep, i want access to the fastet / most agile ships. I want capless weapons. I want to be able to shield and armour tank. I want to have nice size drone bays. And now can i have a damage increase to T1 Ammo? It is fair, i mean amaar got their buff ... right????? Noxious IV - Born to be Sarcastic
iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:32:00 - [12] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? Last time I checked, hail was not a T1 ammo. Next? ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:33:00 - [13] Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? because ammo that slows you down + closerange = win:D! ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Great Artista Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:36:00 - [14] Originally by: iiOs Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? because ammo that slows you down + closerange = win:D! No it doesnt...? _______ ◕◡◕ Space perverts and forum warriors united. [PERVS] My opinions rather rarely represent my corp, not to mention my alliance hihihi...
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:37:00 - [15] Edited by: Nian Banks on 28/08/2007 13:38:09 The only thing I believe would be a good change to the Minmatar t1 ammunition is if they gave Depleted Uranium a falloff bonus, perhaps +20%. Depleted Uranium "Very commonly used by Minmatar pilots, this ammo is incendiary and also has great penetration. Just be careful handling it unless you want to wake up with an extra toe on your forehead." This ammunition has 3 damage types, Explosive, Thermal and Kinetic. Its not used very much but apparently is commonly used by minmatar pilots, now I can only think of that been the truth because the minmatar is thought of as a fast hard hitting combat orientated race. We fight in falloff and it would be natural that the most popular (in fluff) ammo would have a falloff bonus. Leave the damage as it is for now, what t1 lacks is ammo for autocannons.
nakKEDK Gallente North Face Force	Posted - 2007.08.28 13:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? Last time I checked, hail was not a T1 ammo. Next? ahah cant stop laughing btw gankathron do have more dps than tempest. and dont think it need a boost, as the guns use 0 cap,and has alot of tracking. dont bother arguing with me, cause im allways right. Well at least sometimes.
iiOs The Cry of Mankind	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:03:00 - [17] Originally by: Great Artista Originally by: iiOs Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? because ammo that slows you down + closerange = win:D! No it doesnt...? have it been fixed?! ---------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------- BB
Gariuys Evil Strangers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.28 14:16:00 - [18] Originally by: Rodj Blake I'll be quite happy to see an extra 4 points of damage on the best large projectile ammunition, just as soon as projectiles are changed to cost an obscene amount of capacitor to fire. Deal
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:27:00 - [19] instead of normalizing the amount of DPS the ammos do, normalize the amount of DPS against ARMOR and SHIELD the ammos do. You will then find, that when comparing tech 1 ammo, the Minmatar do very very well. They have ammo that does more armor damage than antimatter and ammo that does close to as much shield damage as x-ray. Now, with the advent of tech 2 ammo, EMP and PP certianly lag behind, but that doesnt mean that its necessary to increase the DPS of the ammo at all. What it does mean is that the ratio of EM damage on EMP ammo is no longer significant to make it a usefull ammo. Increase the EM damage on EMP ammo and reduce the amount of explosive damage on EMP ammo and all the problems magically go away.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Guardians of the Dawn Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:35:00 - [20] wow wow wo guy .. wow People just like to ignore the fact that devs have already pronuntiated about it in past? On the "boost 5% damage to arties" thread tux did he explained, Projectiles have inferior short range ammo when compared to Hybrids, but their long range are far superior Its a trade off. Nothing really to discuss here. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:46:00 - [21] Edited by: Goumindong on 28/08/2007 15:48:48 Originally by: Kagura Nikon wow wow wo guy .. wow People just like to ignore the fact that devs have already pronuntiated about it in past? On the "boost 5% damage to arties" thread tux did he explained, Projectiles have inferior short range ammo when compared to Hybrids, but their long range are far superior Its a trade off. Nothing really to discuss here. tux is wrong. Short range projectile ammo is simply not inferior. Look at the damage fusion does against armor and PP/EMP does against shields. Only its damage against shields is inferior. And that is only significantly inferior due to the introduction of tech 2 ammo. edit; Also the OP is full of lies. Heavy Beams on an Omen do not do 64% more DPS than Arties on a Rupture...
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.28 15:52:00 - [22] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/08/2007 15:54:54 Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 28/08/2007 15:48:48 Originally by: Kagura Nikon wow wow wo guy .. wow People just like to ignore the fact that devs have already pronuntiated about it in past? On the "boost 5% damage to arties" thread tux did he explained, Projectiles have inferior short range ammo when compared to Hybrids, but their long range are far superior Its a trade off. Nothing really to discuss here. tux is wrong. Short range projectile ammo is simply not inferior. Look at the damage fusion does against armor and PP/EMP does against shields. Only its damage against shields is inferior. And that is only significantly inferior due to the introduction of tech 2 ammo. Are you seriously suggesting to balance things based on standard armor values that noone at all uses? I prefer to base things off realistic resists which are more or less balanced (at least in the ships that I fly in PvP). Quote: edit; Also the OP is full of lies. Heavy Beams on an Omen do not do 64% more DPS than Arties on a Rupture... Guess my post is way too intellectual for the average forum ***** or something. Nowhere does it say such a thing. It just says that on average, ships with bonuses for cruiser-sized beams do 38% more damage than those with projectile bonuses. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:04:00 - [23] Edited by: Goumindong on 28/08/2007 16:04:58 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Are you seriously suggesting to balance things based on standard armor values that noone at all uses? I prefer to base things off realistic resists which are more or less balanced (at least in the ships that I fly in PvP). More lies. First off, many many many people use standard armor values. For instance in a fleet, the most common tank is a single damage control, and right after that a single damage control with a 1600mm plate. Most common tanks are not tri-hardened. EANM/DC tanks STILL take less CPU than tri-hardened tanks, and armor tanks still dominate the realm. As well, the only changes when comparing projectile ammo and hybrid ammo on a tri-hardened tank is that EMP does better against armor than it would normally. There is no change in its DPS compared to Antimatter. It STILL does as much armor damage as antimatter. At the moment, the difference between antimatter on shield and EMP on shields is a 5% advantage for antimatter. The difference between antimatter on armor and Fusion on armor is a 2.3% advantage to fusion on armor. Even with faction antimatter and faction fusion this doesnt change. So in fact, the close range move to faction ammo, has if anything returned the ammos to their old balance. The disadvantage of course is that the projectile user has to switch ammo types. I mean, you claim that Amarran Cruisers do 51% more raw DPS than Minmatar Cruisers when each are using their respective close range ammo on long range weapons. Never mind that this claim is bull****[10% more raw DPS on the Omen, 2x the alpha on the Rupture, rupture has 40 more drones DPS which makes up for all the DPS difference], are all your other claims as wrong? Are they as wrong when comparing damage against shields or armor? How in the hell do you get a 51% dps advantage for beams over arties on the cruiser level anyway?
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:09:00 - [24] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? Last time I checked, hail was not a T1 ammo. Next? So EMP + 800mm on tempest outdamages neutron cannon on mega? While having 60% more falloff, no cap use and easier fittings. Next? -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:09:00 - [25] Edited by: Goumindong on 28/08/2007 16:14:12 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Guess my post is way too intellectual for the average forum *** or something. Nowhere does it say such a thing. It just says that on average, ships with bonuses for cruiser-sized beams do 38% more damage than those with projectile bonuses. Eh, i made an error. But 38% is another number pulled from your ass. Never mind that the largest difference to be found at that weapon size is 26%, between the harbinger and the Hurricane, that the Hurricane is faster, easier to fit, and has missile slots. edit: OR that in reality the Harbinger only outdamages the ship against shields, and not against armor. edit: Oh, and a ***** Abaddon does 43% more DPS than a Maelstrom, not 64% more in raw DPS when the EMP/MF damage difference is figured. What in the hell is causing you to get these ridiculous numbers?
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Currently, with 44 damage as the top projectile ammo while the other gun types have 48: ...Stuff... Iron L: 20 damage Radio L: 20 damage Carbonized Lead L: 24 damage Your missing 4 damage are there. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.08.28 16:37:00 - [27] Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/08/2007 16:40:17 Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? Last time I checked, hail was not a T1 ammo. Next? So EMP + 800mm on tempest outdamages neutron cannon on mega? While having 60% more falloff, no cap use and easier fittings. Next? No it does not. About 768 on the Mega vs. about 664 on the Tempest. And in the Harbinger vs. Hurricane comparison, I am getting a 40% advantage for the Harbinger with Hevay Beams: 3.6 damage mod * 1.25 ship bonus * 24 ammo * 7 turrets * 1 reload mod / 6 RoF = 126 Hurricane with 720s: 7.245 damage mod * 1.25 ship bonus * 22 ammo * 6 turrets * 0.89 reload mod / 15.75 * 0.75 RoF = 90 And 126/90 = 1.4 = 40% better Harbinger damage. Quote: edit: Oh, and a ******* Abaddon does 43% more DPS than a Maelstrom, not 64% more in raw DPS when the EMP/MF damage difference is figured. What in the hell is causing you to get these ridiculous numbers? Just look in the spreadsheet where I get my numbers. Like I already said, it is the AVERAGE ship damages normalized for weapon hardpoints and damage bonuses. No where is there an indiviual ship comparison. Fix speedtanks, base hit chance on agility!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:25:00 - [28] Edited by: Goumindong on 28/08/2007 17:25:53 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Just look in the spreadsheet where I get my numbers. Like I already said, it is the AVERAGE ship damages normalized for weapon hardpoints and damage bonuses. No where is there an indiviual ship comparison. So its a useless number then? Are you including the Arbitrator as a 2 turret ship? I mean tech 1, Amarr has 4 ships with an average of 3.5 turrets and 1/4 damage bonus. Oh wait, its fing useless unless you compare specific ships. You use ships like the Phoon Bellicose and Scythe to lower the average and then complain there is a problem. its not, this is stupid. Please never post again. P.S. 526/415 =1.267 Quote: And in the Harbinger vs. Hurricane comparison, I am getting a 40% advantage for the Harbinger with Hevay Beams: 3.6 damage mod * 1.25 ship bonus * 24 ammo * 7 turrets * 1 reload mod / 6 RoF = 126 Hurricane with 720s: 7.245 damage mod * 1.25 ship bonus * 22 ammo * 6 turrets * 0.89 reload mod / 15.75 * 0.75 RoF = 90 And 126/90 = 1.4 = 40% better Harbinger damage. This is because you are incompetent. 7.245 x 1.25 x 22 x 6 /15.75 /.75 =101.2 You will never, ever, ever have to reload your weapon in the middle of a battle that you cannot reload when changing targets. If you do, and a target is taking longer than 70 seconds to kill, something is seriusly wrong and you are seriously outmatched.
Atasy Huopian	Posted - 2007.08.28 17:30:00 - [29] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/08/2007 13:16:41 Originally by: Rastigan Edited by: Rastigan on 28/08/2007 12:50:23 Did you base your damage calculations using the double damage bonus ROF/DMG that many Minmatar ships have ? More than any other race ? Who has a Cruiser,Battlecruser, and a Battleship with these bonuses ? Minmatar. A Tempests 1400mm gun does 9% more DPS over a Megathrons 425mm rail. (with T1 AMMO) It also does over 100% more in Alpha strike damage , and uses 100000000000000000000% less cap.. OMG NERF MATAR AMMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wish people would at least try to comprehend posts before making silly replies. You can download and look at the excel file and you will see that I did figure those things in. But I guess that is too much to ask off a Goon... And yes on a per gun basis projectile guns might do more, but you also have to figure in the amount of turret hardpoints the ships offer, which is also something I did. And yes, some (certainly not all) Minmatar ships are great in PvP. But that is to a large part due to T2 ammo. The T1 stuff is gimped. If people think it is not, maybe CCP should reduce T2 minmatar ammo damage by 8.33% as well to be in line with the fine T1 ammo... If the base damage was inline with other ammo the damage would be herendous. Projectiles have the largest dammage multipliers in the game as for turrets.
LUKEC Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.28 18:03:00 - [30] Edited by: LUKEC on 28/08/2007 18:05:47 Originally by: Leandro Salazar Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 28/08/2007 16:40:17 Originally by: LUKEC Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: LUKEC Last time i checked 800mm ac II with hail on tempest did more dps than neutron blaster on mega with void. Next? Last time I checked, hail was not a T1 ammo. Next? So EMP + 800mm on tempest outdamages neutron cannon on mega? While having 60% more falloff, no cap use and easier fittings. Next? No it does not. About 768 on the Mega vs. about 664 on the Tempest. And in the Harbinger vs. Hurricane comparison, I am getting a 40% advantage for the Harbinger with Hevay Beams: 3.6 damage mod * 1.25 ship bonus * 24 ammo * 7 turrets * 1 reload mod / 6 RoF = 126 Hurricane with 720s: 7.245 damage mod * 1.25 ship bonus * 22 ammo * 6 turrets * 0.89 reload mod / 15.75 * 0.75 RoF = 90 And 126/90 = 1.4 = 40% better Harbinger damage. Quote: edit: Oh, and a ******* Abaddon does 43% more DPS than a Maelstrom, not 64% more in raw DPS when the EMP/MF damage difference is figured. What in the hell is causing you to get these ridiculous numbers? Just look in the spreadsheet where I get my numbers. Like I already said, it is the AVERAGE ship damages normalized for weapon hardpoints and damage bonuses. No where is there an indiviual ship comparison. Average normalised zealot vs average normalised vagabond? Or standard muninn vs std zealot? Stop twisting stuff. Or did you perhaps forget that abaddon sucks 55cap/s with 8 mp II while maelstrom can shoot without? (that's 3/4 of "unstable" XL shield booster tank) -------- I tanked D2 capital fleet and all I got was truncated Erebus mail.

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