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ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 18:22:00 - [1] I hope this can stay civilized. Yes, I am biased, but I'll try to not let that effect this message. I just want to start a discussion about some things that effect the 0.0 game right now that might not be just. To anyone who posts flames or trolls like "stop whining", grow up and get back to class its only 2:30. To anyone who posts flames or trolls about my being biased, do please try to prove that you are better than me and try to make your posts even more objective and less biased than mine. Desync and DDDs It seems as if desyncs don't affect titans or DDDs differently than any other module. But desyncs when it involves titans and their glorious fists can outright win a victory without warning. I won't argue that desyncs suck in general, but desyncs and DDDs suck most of all. I don't have a proposal to make about this, i'm just bringing it up for discussion, pointing out that its demoralizing to know that when flying with a fleet that you may come out of a desync to find yourself in that same fleet, of pods. This effects both sides of "the war" so I think its something everyone can agree on. If there is ANYTHING that can be done to make this better, even a ghetto-ass bandaid, it'd greatly improve the health of 0.0 wars. Instatly(or just about) warping after the firing of a DDD DDDs are serious business. They blow up entire sub-capital fleets. I don't like them in general and think they royally F up the point of having the presence of a titan. But this isn't about that. Accepting that DDDs were well thought out and belong in eve cough LOL cough, then can we not at the same time acknowledge that the firing of a DDD was intended to put the titan in a vulnerable state? At first, titans were argued to be vulnerable to destruction. How so? Why thats simple my good chap, simply drain its capacitor! Blah blah blah we all know how viable that strategy turned out to be and how titans were changed because of it. Activating a DDD disables the titans jump drive for 10 minutes. Traditional use of titans was made vulnerable and thus a titan actually died to a fleet as apposed to meta-gaming, for the first time in eve history. Well now clever titan crews are adopting a new strategy to avoid putting their titans at risk. This involves positioning a ship beyond an enemy fleet that is aligned with both the enemy fleet and your friendly titan. This ship is ideally outside of the grid, far enough away to not be seen even when uncloaked. A covert ops can do this easily. You can probably guess the rest. You warp your titan, press ze button ever so skillfully, whilst accelerating to beyond 70% max speed, and mash warp to aligned gang member immediately after the DDD fires. I'm sure some will argue that its fine cause it takes teamwork and coordination but uhh, so did jumping. Point is that this can eliminate the risk involved with firing a DDD. I just wanted to point that out, I do not have any suggestions. Cyno-jammed systems with capital support vs sub-capital fleets I know sovereignty was meant to aid the defense of systems. It achieves this very well. How well, depends on the amount of capital support involved. It can get to a point, however, where the amount of capital support can become overwhelming and make aggressive efforts in a system futile. If nothing else, everyone must agree that this only encourages blobbing, which increases desync, and hurts everyone. It is true that eve is not fair and isn't supposed to be, but this game is old, and this mechanic of cyno-jamming is new. In the long run this new mechanic could prove to make 0.0 sovereignty even more stagnant for the bigger players than it has been in the past. I only have a general suggestion to reevaluate the purpose of cyno-jamming. If its original objective was to enhance the defense of systems where you hold sovereignty, this can be achieve in much more reasonable ways. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 19:40:00 - [2] Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Desync and DDDs It seems as if desyncs don't affect titans or DDDs differently than any other module. But desyncs when it involves titans and their glorious fists can outright win a victory without warning. I won't argue that desyncs suck in general, but desyncs and DDDs suck most of all. I don't have a proposal to make about this, i'm just bringing it up for discussion, pointing out that its demoralizing to know that when flying with a fleet that you may come out of a desync to find yourself in that same fleet, of pods. This effects both sides of "the war" so I think its something everyone can agree on. If there is ANYTHING that can be done to make this better, even a ghetto-ass bandaid, it'd greatly improve the health of 0.0 wars. Try being in a titan, getting de'synched, thinking you're at a pos, then watching yourself slowly get taken into armor while everyone on ts is nervously asking wtf you're doing randomly warping into the middle of 150 hostiles with no support and a partial cooldown timer left on your DD..... Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Instatly(or just about) warping after the firing of a DDD DDDs are serious business. They blow up entire sub-capital fleets. I don't like them in general and think they royally F up the point of having the presence of a titan. But this isn't about that. Accepting that DDDs were well thought out and belong in eve cough LOL cough, then can we not at the same time acknowledge that the firing of a DDD was intended to put the titan in a vulnerable state? At first, titans were argued to be vulnerable to destruction. How so? Why thats simple my good chap, simply drain its capacitor! Blah blah blah we all know how viable that strategy turned out to be and how titans were changed because of it. Activating a DDD disables the titans jump drive for 10 minutes. Traditional use of titans was made vulnerable and thus a titan actually died to a fleet as apposed to meta-gaming, for the first time in eve history. Well now clever titan crews are adopting a new strategy to avoid putting their titans at risk. This involves positioning a ship beyond an enemy fleet that is aligned with both the enemy fleet and your friendly titan. This ship is ideally outside of the grid, far enough away to not be seen even when uncloaked. A covert ops can do this easily. You can probably guess the rest. You warp your titan, press ze button ever so skillfully, whilst accelerating to beyond 70% max speed, and mash warp to aligned gang member immediately after the DDD fires. So what stops said fleet from just warping out when the titan arrives? What stops them having dictors 1000km off-grid, aligned for the fight, waiting for the titan to warp in and press the dd button so they can warp in and bubble the crap out of it? Titans don't instantly get to speed you know.....use some ingenuity, take advantage of the situation and try and trap the titan and kill it after it has wasted a dd; don't come whine on the forums just because you lack the common sense necessary to actually attempt to counter it.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 19:46:00 - [3] Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Cyno-jammed systems with capital support vs sub-capital fleets I know sovereignty was meant to aid the defense of systems. It achieves this very well. How well, depends on the amount of capital support involved. It can get to a point, however, where the amount of capital support can become overwhelming and make aggressive efforts in a system futile. If nothing else, everyone must agree that this only encourages blobbing, which increases desync, and hurts everyone. It is true that eve is not fair and isn't supposed to be, but this game is old, and this mechanic of cyno-jamming is new. In the long run this new mechanic could prove to make 0.0 sovereignty even more stagnant for the bigger players than it has been in the past. I only have a general suggestion to reevaluate the purpose of cyno-jamming. If its original objective was to enhance the defense of systems where you hold sovereignty, this can be achieve in much So what's your suggestion? Mine would be: Systems are not defended 24/7 and no-one can manage a 24/7 gatecamp. Bide your time, send in a fleet, neutralise the defenders then take out the cyno jammer [this is ignoring more tactical options such as dummy attacks on other systems to draw the defending alliance out leaving you with a smaller force in the cyno jammer system to deal with]. Can be difficult but is not impossible and is being done frequently. Personally I fail to see the problem. In terms of the overall picture of pos I have to say though, if ccp was trying to make it any less dull they certainly failed...instead adding elements to make it even more long-winded.
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:05:00 - [4] Forgot to point out that titans CAN get up to warp speed very quickly, instantly after DDD in fact. DDD has a delay. Upon exiting warp and activating DDD, you have 15 seconds to get at least 70% maximum speed. I do not know if this takes nano/mass-reducing modules to accomplish, but I do know an instant warp after DDD has been accomplished already. Confirmed by victims of Mercenary Coalition's newly unveiled Ragnarok. Estimates indicate 2 seconds after detonation. I dunno about suggestions, perhaps, off the top of my head, make the titan come to a complete stop upon detonation. That doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:08:00 - [5] Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Forgot to point out that titans CAN get up to warp speed very quickly, instantly after DDD in fact. DDD has a delay. Upon exiting warp and activating DDD, you have 15 seconds to get at least 70% maximum speed. I do not know if this takes nano/mass-reducing modules to accomplish, but I do know an instant warp after DDD has been accomplished already. Confirmed by victims of Mercenary Coalition's newly unveiled Ragnarok. Estimates indicate 2 seconds after detonation. I dunno about suggestions, perhaps, off the top of my head, make the titan come to a complete stop upon detonation. That doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. Regardless of how you attempt to describe it, it's not an insta-warp. You have plenty of time to act. You know how bs can be setup to easily withstand a dd? You know how large objects in front of other large objects stop them moving? Do I need to draw you a picture per tactic?
Orator Demosthenes Amarr On The Crown	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:17:00 - [6] Cry more. People have been using the slingshot warp technique with snipers forever. Just because you're new doesn't mean its not a good solid tactic.
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:24:00 - [7] Yes ships can tank a DDD but interdicters can't. To me, having the DDD set velocity to 0 once fired makes more sense than making interdictors survive DDDs. Perhaps the tanked BS's could drain the capacitor though. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:30:00 - [8] Golden rule #1 : never fly a ship you can't afford to loose. (...yes, even in fleet, and yes, that rule is rigth even for the titan pilot. Who knows if 463141463148631486314346348634646314863145631461oooooooooooooogle RSF are behind the gate.) -=-=-
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:33:00 - [9] Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Yes ships can tank a DDD but interdicters can't. To me, having the DDD set velocity to 0 once fired makes more sense than making interdictors survive DDDs. Perhaps the tanked BS's could drain the capacitor though. Ugh. Every time I re-type this post it turns into a personal attack. So here's a mild version. Stop moaning. Use your brain. Come up with a plan instead of posting here. CCP aren't going to hand you a 60bil isk ship on a platter just because you lack the requisite intelligence to take advantage of the massive vulnerabilities CCP only recently gave them, and posting a thread that only serves to illustrate your own weak grasp of the game won't change that.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:35:00 - [10] a - In the screenshot case, the titan won't jump because of pods (those one were not made "translucid" by the new patch.). b - Any FC or even player knows when MrImATiatan is logged in the system. When you see strange space warp out. Err... What... Your fleet is not aligned ? c - Scans are NOT made for cover ops guys only ("Break-break, incoming Tiatanz") d - Stop whi... Well, you get the idea. -=-=-
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:37:00 - [11] Originally by: The Economist Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Yes ships can tank a DDD but interdicters can't. To me, having the DDD set velocity to 0 once fired makes more sense than making interdictors survive DDDs. Perhaps the tanked BS's could drain the capacitor though. Ugh. Every time I re-type this post it turns into a personal attack. So here's a mild version. Stop moaning. Use your brain. Come up with a plan instead of posting here. CCP aren't going to hand you a 60bil isk ship on a platter just because you lack the requisite intelligence to take advantage of the massive vulnerabilities CCP only recently gave them, and posting a thread that only serves to illustrate your own weak grasp of the game won't change that. Yes you've done nothing but attack me. I posted of my concerns, I have a right to do so. I made very few suggestions, certainly none of which I would consider asking for a free titan kill, could you share with me what you interpreted that to be? Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:37:00 - [12] Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Yes ships can tank a DDD but interdicters can't. To me, having the DDD set velocity to 0 once fired makes more sense than making interdictors survive DDDs. Perhaps the tanked BS's could drain the capacitor though. Shuttles can't tank DD also. Boost shuttles !!! -=-=-
Wylker Caldari Pyrrhus Sicarii	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:43:00 - [13] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Yes ships can tank a DDD but interdicters can't. To me, having the DDD set velocity to 0 once fired makes more sense than making interdictors survive DDDs. Perhaps the tanked BS's could drain the capacitor though. Shuttles can't tank DD also. Boost shuttles !!! I have to do it: I hear shuttles don't tank very well. Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Sales Portsmouth Shipyards IPO Discussion
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:45:00 - [14] Kweel please I beg you to be serious. You know good and well I didn't ask for interdictors to be boosted, you're just trolling me for a rise. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:47:00 - [15] Edited by: The Economist on 28/08/2007 20:49:31 Edited by: The Economist on 28/08/2007 20:48:00 Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Originally by: The Economist Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Yes ships can tank a DDD but interdicters can't. To me, having the DDD set velocity to 0 once fired makes more sense than making interdictors survive DDDs. Perhaps the tanked BS's could drain the capacitor though. Ugh. Every time I re-type this post it turns into a personal attack. So here's a mild version. Stop moaning. Use your brain. Come up with a plan instead of posting here. CCP aren't going to hand you a 60bil isk ship on a platter just because you lack the requisite intelligence to take advantage of the massive vulnerabilities CCP only recently gave them, and posting a thread that only serves to illustrate your own weak grasp of the game won't change that. Yes you've done nothing but attack me. I posted of my concerns, I have a right to do so. I made very few suggestions, certainly none of which I would consider asking for a free titan kill, could you share with me what you interpreted that to be? Non-constructive whining. Which I attempted to counter by offering several ideas which got around the problems you perceived. Apparently solutions using current mechanics which illustrate the fallacies of your concerns aren't enough. Hence I conclude that you aren't actually looking for solutions, but just want to complain. This engenders hostility on my part. [Oh and kweel made some good points too]
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:52:00 - [16] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/08/2007 20:55:31 Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Kweel please I beg you to be serious. You know good and well I didn't ask for interdictors to be boosted, you're just trolling me for a rise. No, you're just asking things strange (-edit- strange things, pardon my french :p), mate. Imagine the coordination needed to have 4 points aligned in space, with 3 of your team and one uncontrolled. Most of the problem you have against titans can be avoided with simple things in mind : - look to the local, if a known titan pilot is in, then gtfo - stay aligned - fit DD tanks - and so on. I'm sorry if you were fried x times in a row. You should learn tactics. I'm not sure about this so I'm asking on my Alliance chan if a cloaked ship can dodge a DD. -=-=-
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:55:00 - [17] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I'm not sure about this so I'm asking on my Alliance chan if a cloaked ship can dodge a DD. It can't; cloaked ships within DD range get hit too.
Gentlewind	Posted - 2007.08.28 20:59:00 - [18] I take it from your post about the ddd your a member of the so called 'coalition', come on just be honest you want the titan nerfed to the point of it being a very large paperweight, surprise, surprise
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:14:00 - [19] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/08/2007 20:55:31 Originally by: ForumPosterAlt Kweel please I beg you to be serious. You know good and well I didn't ask for interdictors to be boosted, you're just trolling me for a rise. No, you're just asking things strange (-edit- strange things, pardon my french :p), mate. Imagine the coordination needed to have 4 points aligned in space, with 3 of your team and one uncontrolled. Most of the problem you have against titans can be avoided with simple things in mind : - look to the local, if a known titan pilot is in, then gtfo - stay aligned - fit DD tanks - and so on. I'm sorry if you were fried x times in a row. You should learn tactics. I'm not sure about this so I'm asking on my Alliance chan if a cloaked ship can dodge a DD. I did not say anything about surviving titans, I was talking about making them vulnerable. The point was you can catch a titan with an interdictor but an interdictor can't tank a DDD. So you see its not about surviving the DDD. The coordination to have those 3 points simply requires 2 covert ops and a couple of minutes, it is very easy. One warps to enemy fleet, cloaks, goes to a spot where you won't bump into stuff. The other warps to the first one, cloaks and then just goes straight, then when far enough away, give titan the go, he warps in, activates DDD, juices the thrust, 15 seconds later, kaboom 1 second later zoom But im just getting attacks now, nobody is being serious. These ideas for how to tackle someone using this tactic are just as unrealistic as draining its capacitor. And I am in no way asking for an easy titan kill, I just think this tactic of instant warp after DDD needs to stop. There is no easy way to kill a titan, it has to be made vulnerable by using the DDD, interdictors must be able to drop a bubble on it. These are necessities for a titan to die. If there is no time for even a well planned trap to react, then the titan is not vulnerable. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:15:00 - [20] Originally by: The Economist Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn I'm not sure about this so I'm asking on my Alliance chan if a cloaked ship can dodge a DD. It can't; cloaked ships within DD range get hit too. Ok, thank you. Well, too bad for cloaked dictors. Actually Titans are killable. MC (i guess it's them) are doing this against you because they know you have not the needed fleet organisation to counter this. There is a lot of right or left tips you or your fc can read and gather around against titans. Actually CCP nerfed them to be killable not by using metagaming, which is to me a cool thing, because metagaming, even if everyone is forced to use this, is simply not fair. At all. Titans should be avoided by small and med gangs like the pest they are. Dodge or tank their DD, there is no 10 solutions. When a vagabond come near you, find the web button and wait for an error. Same with Titan. CCP just unnerfed them a little by making wrecks and corpses invisibles to them. They still can be killed, it'll always be hard to kill them, then whatever. Dodge DD and you have 1 hour of calm. And it's not that difficult to dodge or tank a DD, don't say the opposite. -=-=-
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:22:00 - [21] Originally by: The Economist Non-constructive whining. False accusation. You're just being ridiculous now. Originally by: The Economist Which I attempted to counter by offering several ideas which got around the problems you perceived. Except the part where the battleship drops an interdiction bubble. Originally by: The Economist Apparently solutions using current mechanics which illustrate the fallacies of your concerns aren't enough. You didn't any. None of what you proposed can stop a titan baring the first covert ops dropping you into the middle of tanked battleships or wrecks. Originally by: The Economist Hence I conclude that you aren't actually looking for solutions, but just want to complain. This engenders hostility on my part. You were hostile from the start and had no intention of serious dialog, admit it. Originally by: The Economist [Oh and kweel made some good points too] Kweel isn't on the same page, he is talking about surviving a DDD rather than stopping a titan after it fires a DDD. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:24:00 - [22] Originally by: ForumPosterAlt nobody is being serious. Originally by: ForumPosterAlt These ideas for how to tackle someone using this tactic are just as unrealistic as draining its capacitor. Incorrect. I have posted several solutions and hints to other solutions. Originally by: ForumPosterAlt And I am in no way asking for an easy titan kill, I just think this tactic of instant warp after DDD needs to stop. There is no easy way to kill a titan, it has to be made vulnerable by using the DDD, interdictors must be able to drop a bubble on it. These are necessities for a titan to die. So what you mean is: make it easier to kill a titan. Originally by: ForumPosterAlt If there is no time for even a well planned trap to react, then the titan is not vulnerable. There is more than enough time. They are vulnerable. When a titan comes on grid it becomes killable. The only caveat is that you need to know what you're doing. Use the grey matter between your ears to put two and two together and you'll have your very own titan wreck to salvage.
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:25:00 - [23] Ok, you're an idiot. I admit that nothing I can say will change that. I give up. Have fun whining.
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Actually Titans are killable. MC (i guess it's them) are doing this against you because they know you have not the needed fleet organisation to counter this. No offense Kweel but there is more to titans than I think you understand. You did not know that cloak won't protect you from DDD, I have no idea what else you don't know about titans. Like if you know they are immune to electronic warfare and the only way to keep them from warping is to bump or interdiction bubble, both of which are only possible with adequate time to react. 1 or 2 seconds is not adequate time. Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Titans should be avoided by small and med gangs like the pest they are. Dodge or tank their DD, there is no 10 solutions. When a vagabond come near you, find the web button and wait for an error. Same with Titan. That is one perception. But with the nerf to a titan's ability to jumpdrive after firing the DDD, I perceived that titans were to be vulnerable to attack, or at least a well planned trap, after firing the DDD, not just after they've F'd up royally. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:37:00 - [25] Originally by: The Economist Ok, you're an idiot. I admit that nothing I can say will change that. I give up. Have fun whining. You show your true colors. Tbh I knew your nature from your first post but gave you respect anyways. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Aeden Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:53:00 - [26] Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 28/08/2007 21:55:54 Again, there is no 100k solutions. Have 6 dictors at 160k of your fleet in a cube fation. Then no titan will because he can be bubled by any of the six dictor, then 5 will came from the other corner of the cube. Ooook, i know, this plan is crap. Showing dictors will prevent your gang to be warped on anyway. One snipper fleet + lots of dictors + one cyno maker + 10 dreads waiting for the signal = dead titans. Plan this for two monthes, ask your allies, blob him and watch the emo :) btw, it seem Shrike is an elite shuttle pilot, Chowdown an tech II hauler etc. All of them are your buddies ! \o/ -=-=-
The Economist	Posted - 2007.08.28 21:56:00 - [27] Since I don't like the image of you on a high-horse here's how to kill a titan that does what you describe: 1.Keep several multi-plated bs with cynos and cloaks 300km+ off the battle, aligned to the fight. Keep a couple of cloaked dictors with them. 2.Have a couple of designated kamikazi inties. 3.Titan warps in. 4.The moment it appears the designated inties go for it, being careful to stay outside smartbomb range, and move in front of it. 5.While they do this the titan lets off its DD, starting the 15sec countdown. 6.Your fleet, bring aligned, warps out. 7.The Cyno bs's un-cloak and warp to the designated inties which are now around the front of the titan. 8.The Cyno BS's hit their mwd's and ram the front of the titan, once in it's way they open their cynos. 9.DD goes off at this point and kills maybe a couple of the designated inties and little else. 10. Your fleet warps back in to deal with the enemy fleet as normal. 11.Dictors un-cloak and warp down to the titan covering it with bubbles. 12.Cap fleet cynos in on the titan, bumping it to hell and back and commence firing. 13.Titan dies. Within 10 seconds of arriving on the field the titan is unable to escape. There you go, an example of a thirteen step plan to kill a titan using the tactic you describe. Better?
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.08.28 22:16:00 - [28] Personally I just like the way that bob waited until they started losing to put cyno jammers in... Titans suck. Its kinda refreshing to watch the patch ping pong change the rules depending on who's doing the attacking and defending. Who else can see a 60% HP nerf or a change that makes them unrepairable remotely coming as soon as the bob train gets on the offensive again?
Il Reverendo Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.28 22:20:00 - [29] Originally by: umop 3pisdn Personally I just like the way that bob waited until they started losing to put cyno jammers in... Who else can see a 60% HP nerf or a change that makes them unrepairable remotely coming as soon as the bob train gets on the offensive again? Jesus Christ.
Maksiim Doom and Gloom Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.08.28 22:32:00 - [30] Edited by: Maksiim on 28/08/2007 22:31:55 click link....DO IT. Not much changes huh? FanFest is for...

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