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Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.29 00:40:00 - [1] Ok, let's be honest, most if not all of the assault frigates are useless. Nobody flies them and if they do, they don't get anything done (except perhaps Harpy pilots). People used to use them to tank complexes and they excelled at that task, but now they're pretty crappy. To be honest, I don't know much about how to improve on them, but I did have one idea. Make the Ishkur into an anti-interceptor / fast frigate platform. Instead of the current bonuses (except for the drone bay), give it these: +10km to drone control range per level, +10% to drone speed and tracking per level What does this do? We all know Warrior IIs are excellent at repelling Interceptors . . . if the interceptor pilot has no skills trained. Otherwise, EVERY interceptor speeds past drones and missiles alike. With these bonuses, an Ishkur pilot with Assault Ships IV could use Warrior IIs that go at max (no modules) 8820 m/s and can be issued orders out to 97km (drones will follow the target to about twice that). I'm actually not 100% sure about whether or not the tracking is necessary. This would give the Ishkur a useful purpose in combat, as opposed to all Assault ships going unused. Comments? Suggestions? ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Calisto Cody Minmatar The Black Swan Society	Posted - 2007.08.29 00:42:00 - [2] ermm....isnt this the best AF, that is useful? "I just like ships that are symmetrical, not ships with 5 propulsion jets on one side and 3 on the other and than maybe one in another random spot."
Daelana	Posted - 2007.08.29 00:43:00 - [3] Dont touch my ishkur!
wettestwillie Gallente Scotopia	Posted - 2007.08.29 00:46:00 - [4] I agree. I think all creodron ships should be dedicated for drones. Leave the guns for the Enyo!
Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.29 00:46:00 - [5] I don't know what you guys are using it for? The only thing I ever found an Ishkur useful for was running L1/L2 kill missions really quickly. As far as PvP goes, all AFs are terrible and will die to just about anything except a basic T1 frigate or T1 destroyer horribly (this includes getting maimed by interceptors). ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Enkilil Minmatar Carbon Moon Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.29 00:50:00 - [6] Originally by: Ismern Ok, let's be honest, most if not all of the assault frigates are useless. Nobody flies them and if they do, they don't get anything done (except perhaps Harpy pilots). People used to use them to tank complexes and they excelled at that task, but now they're pretty crappy. Then you're doing it wrong. AF V ftw. Ishkur and Enyo are teh balls. `
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:13:00 - [7] I've generally been able to survive ceptor attacks in a Jaguar, but it is the 'fastest' AF. Still a bit too heavy, but oh well. Ishkur is considered to be the best AF for PvP, and the best AF in general ;P Some of them have CPU fitting issues (many Wolf AC fits have this problem) or just bad slot setup for a close-range role and no speed for a long-range one (Enyo anyone?), nearly all of them have very low speed for a frig chassis (Jaguar being the notable exception here) and ALL are way too heavy, making most of them have basically cruiser-class maneuverability. These are the main gripes with them. NOS nerf (just tested it today, it's beautiful. I love it. Thank you, CCP ) did a big boost to all frig / AF / whatever active tanking (and cruiser, actually, considering they've got to worry about heavy NOS). They still don't tank much when webbed, though. I see them as okay gang ships. However, the price tag for losing one makes it way more cost-efficent to just use a T1 frig. And having a MWD-ing AF (Ishkur) slower then a AB-ing Rifter is just silly to no end. Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
hammyhamm	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:15:00 - [8] Originally by: Ismern As far as PvP goes, all AFs are terrible and will die to just about anything except a basic T1 frigate or T1 destroyer horribly (this includes getting maimed by interceptors). The hawk can fit a pretty hard shield tank if you get a gistii booster, but lol missiles.
A'ruhn We Be Tinkers	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:17:00 - [9] Wow, I dont know what, where, or how you're flying your AF's, but they have a tendency to *****Inties, frigs, destroyers, and even cruisers pretty damn hard. They're the best bang for your buck in fleet battles as point defense against incoming interceptors/af's (since they dont instapop like destroyers) Hell, the Ishkur is -THE- Assault frigate... tough, moderately fast, and can pack a hellish wallop for its size. I fly amarr though, and i love my sniper Retribution, and my (shiny, new ) rocket-rainstorm Vengeance.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:23:00 - [10] OP is talking nonsense. I was mission ganked by 3 ships today while flying my 7 L Ion blaster hyperion w/ 1 L NOS. I took down a Gallente navy vexor at very close range after he took out my drones, the arazu had me damped massively, but i managed to get to target an ishkur. The iskur could not even be hit despite being webbed and within optimal. he held me for about 3 or 4 minutes and eventuly got the killing blow. So....useless? Nope....VERY useful when used well. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:26:00 - [11] Edited by: Ismern on 29/08/2007 01:26:58 I'm sorry that you don't know how to fly your Hyperion. Hyperion has no tracking bonus on its large guns. That combined with the sig radius of a small ship means you're not likely to hit it if it's really close to you, regardless of it being webbed. If you had deployed drones, you would have easily destroyed said Ishkur. Assault frigates are still mostly useless. ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Vyktor Abyss The Abyss Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:27:00 - [12] Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 29/08/2007 01:28:47 I'm sorry that you dont know what different classes of ships are used for. With the NOS nerf - they are FAR from useless. - Ideas are my business...maybe thats why I'm always skint! Please read my ideas
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:29:00 - [13] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 01:30:50 Originally by: A'ruhn Wow, I dont know what, where, or how you're flying your AF's, but they have a tendency to ***Inties If they can catch them. They will (if fitted with a web) mostly kill a blaster-taranis or any short-range inty. Originally by:** A'ruhn , frigs, Well, i use a Rifter for that these days, more cost-efficent. Originally by: A'ruhn destroyers, Well, most things kill destroyers with relative ease, they're paper-ships. Yeah, AFs are better at surviving the punch from a T2 arty Trasher unlike frigs / bad interceptor pilots, but still, meh. Originally by: A'ruhn and even cruisers pretty damn hard. Errrr... what? A proper PvP cruiser will shred a AF tank without problems while tanking a good part of its damage. Originally by: A'ruhn They're the best bang for your buck in fleet battles as point defense against incoming interceptors/af's (since they dont instapop like destroyers) They're OK because they don't really get shot by anything much, and a fleet battle is way different then small gang combat or solo. Anyway, defense against interceptors? Er, what? Originally by: A'ruhn Hell, the Ishkur is -THE- Assault frigate... tough, moderately fast, and can pack a hellish wallop for its size. Agreed, although it's waaay too expensive and you can't deny it's slow as hell. Edit: someone doesn't know how to fly a Hyperion Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:35:00 - [14] You know , it's not forbidden to fit drone modules and rigs on the ishkur. AFs are fine. If fitted to counter , T1 cruisers can kill any webbed AF , just like T1 BS can kill any webbed HAC. It's the way ship classes are supposed to work. Originally by: Cipher7 If you manage to get baited, what's your skill, being a good victim?
A'ruhn We Be Tinkers	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:38:00 - [15] Most of the stuff you said, yeah, it can go either way, depends on who's fighting who, but in general, I've had good luck with AF's and consider them (besides bombers) to be one of my favorite classes of ships to fly. As to the cruiser argument, Amarr AF's are notably durable, maybe thats why... or maybe I've fought nublet cruiser pilots. Who knows.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:38:00 - [16] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 01:38:27 Originally by: Stakhanov You know , it's not forbidden to fit drone modules and rigs on the ishkur. AFs are fine. If fitted to counter , T1 cruisers can kill any webbed AF , just like T1 BS can kill any webbed HAC. It's the way ship classes are supposed to work. Agreed, but my gripe is that they're both a bit too expensive and a bit too damn heavy... a HAC is still, you know, faster then a BS (or even BCs for that matter)? Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
MITSUK0	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:44:00 - [17] The AF's are expensive because people keep buying them, probably becuse people keep spouting off that they can take on cruisers... Which they can not. Unless the cruiser is a noob and then you could have done him over in a rifter anyway. If they where cheaper they could work well as heavy tacklers and anti-frig platforms or damage dealers for frig gangs. As it stands right now it is more efficient to either use a cruiser, a destroyer or an inty for the roles I mentioned. I guess the real problem is the utter lack of a role for these ships beyond hammering lvl 1/2 missions.
The StrayDawg GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.29 01:53:00 - [18] The only thing I ever found AF's kinda useful for is ratting with fighters.
Chainsaw Plankton	Posted - 2007.08.29 02:04:00 - [19] an ex corpmate killed a raven in his ishkur. and him + another corpmate killed a drake in assault frigs. my harpy is one of my favorite ships. not sure how things will work after the nos nerf, assult frigs cant nos down the cap on bigger ships, but bigger ships cant insta drain assault frigs.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.29 02:17:00 - [20] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 02:17:53 Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton an ex corpmate killed a raven in his ishkur. So? I've ransomed a Hurricane with my Jaguar. Nearly killed a Myrm two days ago in a Rifter (capped out as he had only two drones left, must get cap skills to V). A couple of days ago me and a corpmate (Hurricane and Myrm) killed a Mega at a gate with sentry gun aggro, of all things. Etc, etc... it doesn't mean that any of these things should happened if their pilots have had the SP and the brains to actually fit and fly their ships. Theres tons of pilots who fit (and fly) their ships like complete muppets. It doesn't really mean anything. Don't get me wrong - i absolutely love flying the little buggers. It's just that unfortunately they're not very ISK-efficent, and killing sensibly fit cruisers in them is extremely unlikely. Especially in any close-range fit. Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Arrias Luvius	Posted - 2007.08.29 02:17:00 - [21] All I have to say is that I have used many many AF's as a heavy tackler and its mostly effective. Just use it wisely and you will be fine. Yes you will lose some just pick your targets appropriately and be smart. Simple as that.
Neena Valdi Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.29 06:08:00 - [22] Something must be wrong with me... but I actually agree with the goon.
Norris Packard Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 06:35:00 - [23] well first off they have never given the assult ships their second frigate bonus. the enyo could sure use that 10% fall off bonus that the incursus has. they are also way too slow because i think ccp feared making them too fast that they would replace the interceptors. they can't even out run mwding cruisers and thats a problem so they should probaly incress all their speeds a small amount and lower the mass a bit too so they can outrun cruisers.
Arkios Odymei D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.29 06:44:00 - [24] Edited by: Arkios Odymei on 29/08/2007 06:52:02 AF's (and all smaller ships for that matter) got a nice boost with the Nos fix in this patch. And if you run a small nos you really dont have much to worry about with neuts either. The Ishkur is one of the better AF's (and arguably the best, but I prefer the Blarpy!). It really doesnt need to be changed. Af's as a class could use a little bit of a boost tho. 2 things come to mind. 1) Reduce the ships mass and sig radius. (AF's used to have significantly less mass and a smaller sig radius before the RMR patch I believe) 2) Give them a real 4th bonus! For the love of god!!! One or both of these would be great for AF's and would make them much more popular (Im not sure about giving them both tho... it might be a little overpowered but only testing will be able tell) Just my thoughts ------------------------------------------------------------------
Jei'son Bladesmith Bladesmith Mining and Development Consortium	Posted - 2007.08.29 07:01:00 - [25] I was going to make a big rant about how i ♥ my ishkur and vengeance and all the badassery i've committed in them (well, im only starting to commit badassery in my vengeance with khanid mk2, but anyways) however i'm tired and mildly drunk so im jus gonna say this..... if you truly dont see any use to assault frigates, fine, dont use them. period. coming on here and saying theyre useless just because YOU cant see their potential is just noobishly silly. Epic Fail. *☼☼☼ Don't even THINK about it rookie...I have all my capacitor and more hit points than you can POSSIBLY imagine. ☼☼☼*
Hakar Eyeless	Posted - 2007.08.29 07:14:00 - [26] Edited by: Hakar Eyeless on 29/08/2007 07:16:37 Hi Mr. Epic Fail (I really enjoy how you capitalized the letters too, brilliant.) Why don't you give me a PvP situation, any situation you want, where I couldn't fit some cruiser or an interceptor to do the job better than an AF? I'm sure it would be immensely informative.
Arkios Odymei D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.29 07:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Hakar Eyeless Edited by: Hakar Eyeless on 29/08/2007 07:16:37 Hi Mr. Epic Fail (I really enjoy how you capitalized the letters too, brilliant.) Why don't you give me a PvP situation, any situation you want, where I couldn't fit some cruiser or an interceptor to do the job better than an AF? I'm sure it would be immensely informative. Well, I would have probably answer that with (piracy in a 2/10 complex"... but those dont really exist anymore, do they? They are just fun to fly. They are better than a Frig, and you can take out some Cruisers in them. Thats about it. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Kahleena W.L.A.M.O.	Posted - 2007.08.29 10:20:00 - [28] Ha ha, read the replies here. You're mentally lapsing if you think no one flies assault frigs or they've lost their usefulness. Just duo'd a 10/10 complex with a buddy a week back or so, we both flew Ishkurs. My ratting ship in 0.0 that's never been destroyed to rats or gate camps: Ishkur. My 0.0 exploration combat ship for encounters, unknowns, etc: Ishkur. Total ishkurs I've lost in my 2 years of playing Eve: 0. Yah... so lets change them, or remove them...since obviously they're useless and no one uses them.... more likely you don't know how to use them or fit them, I suggest looking at the Ishkur ship setup threads.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.29 10:55:00 - [29] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 10:58:11 Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 10:57:43 Originally by: Kahleena ...Ishkurs are beautiful for PvE... Yes, well, so are Caldari, yet they whine about being able to PvP. Anyway, PvE utility doesn't count. My Jaguars have made about 500M from ratting (mostly from getting the occasional faction spawns), and about 40-50M in PvP. However, i've also lost 6-7 of them in combat (mostly because I was trying to see what I can and cannot take, and face it, attacking real foes is way better then messing around with corp-mates or SISI). Anyway, i won't say they suck. They're fun ships, awesome for ratting (due to their ability to run / being a tad too small to get locked down in low-sec unlike cruisers). However, for PvP, they can preety much only take the same targets a T1 frig can (except that some can be used to attack ceptors, and some can be used to attack other AFs). Talking from a PvP utility standpoint, they really need to outpace T1 cruisers (the only one which does is the Jaguar, and not by a very large margin), much like HACs outpace BS (and even BC) and are very near or better then T1 cruiser agility. Also, like HACs, they need four bonuses. Since I don't rat for ISK anymore, well, ISK/efficency is very important, where AFs don't fare so well. Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Dheorl	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:10:00 - [30] I never really get the huge increase on mass for AF's. HAC's don't suffer from the same problem although they are just bigger assult ships. At least put mass closer to if not the same as their frig bases. Once that has been done then we can see if they need fixing further or not but I think that is there main problem (it may just be that I like agile ships and so that is what I personally want but either way, please do it).
Koryvarn Amarr Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:57:00 - [31] Yeah, if AF's were just that bit faster, they would be more useful. They need to be able to outrun non nano cruisers when both targets are MWD'ing and they just cannnot. Ideally, a speed of around 2000 kms when MWD'ing, rather than than the 1k and a bit it is now.
Kytus Bos	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:58:00 - [32] Originally by: Koryvarn Ideally, a speed of around 2000 kms vvvvvrrrrrrrroooOOOOOOOOOOOOMMMMMMMMMMM!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:14:00 - [33] Deimos's, Zealots, Vagabonds, And Sacriledges will hit 2000 m/s with a tech 2 MWD and no speed mod. No reason all the AFs shouldnt also. That or a role bonus to make them as fast as they are now, but with afterburners.
Drek Grapper Minmatar	Posted - 2007.08.29 14:24:00 - [34] Originally by: Cpt Branko Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/08/2007 02:17:53 So? I've ransomed a Hurricane with my Jaguar. Nearly killed a Myrm two days ago in a Rifter (capped out as he had only two drones left, must get cap skills to V). A couple of days ago me and a corpmate (Hurricane and Myrm) killed a Mega at a gate with sentry gun aggro, of all things. Etc, etc... it doesn't mean that any of these things should happened if their pilots have had the SP and the brains to actually fit and fly their ships. Theres tons of pilots who fit (and fly) their ships like complete muppets. It doesn't really mean anything. Don't get me wrong - i absolutely love flying the little buggers. It's just that unfortunately they're not very ISK-efficent, and killing sensibly fit cruisers in them is extremely unlikely. Especially in any close-range fit. Good stuff mate...can you give some details? It's cool to hear the stories? - Michael Schumacher won many a formula one race. Alot of the time he didn't win because he had a better car...he won because HE WAS A BETTER DRIVER and because he used SUPERIOR TACTICS.
Captian Internet	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:28:00 - [35] Personally I'd like to see AF's become pocket cruisers and able to put up a fight while webbed. Also why is it that a gank enyo is out damaged by a gank ishkur Switch the wolf and jag bonuses Give the wolf MORE alpha Retribution needs a second mid Roden ship yards in general need their design theory reconfigured Local Thread 107-b
Ahk'Mehd Gallente Wraith Fleet	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:30:00 - [36] hands off my ishkur!! would be hot if they added a drone bonus for dmg :):)
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.08.29 17:35:00 - [37] Assault Frigates perform beautifully if you know how to fit them and your skills match. I adore the Harpy and I've used it to devastating effect on more than one occasion. Here's what I have done with a Harpy: 1. Killed a Brutix. His t2 drones got popped in short order, even when orbiting me. Then his blasters couldn't hit once I got in close and kept transversal up. Granted, he wasn't fitted to kill frigs (no web, although he did pack a scram, no nos or neuts) and I did have a couple of inties tackling but the point remains valid. 2. Just after the RMR patch, took on a Megathron and two inties at a gate. Killed one inty, put the other into hull with two volleys (he then warped off) and then put the mega into hull before he finally ground me down. Yes the BS was also set up to kill bigger fish but still no mean feat for a frig. Those are the best I've done in it. I'm not a great pvp'er (yet, I hope to get better ) but it's a great little ship. Hell, the fact it can lock very fast and snipe out to 80km+ with Spike makes it useful in my book. Fit a web and nothing is safe from your 125's. I tend to use mine as a hard-hitter or inty-killer in frig-gangs mostly. The other AF's have their roles as well. The Ishkur is an excellent little ship too, purely since it can tank and let the drones do the work. It can operate well against similar sized ships, eat other AF's handily and add firepower against bigger ships. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
William Alex Viscosity	Posted - 2007.08.29 19:55:00 - [38] i agree... i think that the raven should have an extra high slot! Please give us a 1 depth skill queue CCP.
Hrin Minmatar Merch Industrial We Are Nice Guys	Posted - 2007.08.29 20:56:00 - [39] I've never seen an assault frigate do something that couldn't be done better, more cheaply, and for less SP by a cruiser except for PVE. I'm quite surprised by how clueless a lot of these people are. HURF DURF I like AFs therefor they BEST. anecdotal evidence, a definition for the uninformed.
Katrina Coreli The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.29 21:43:00 - [40] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 29/08/2007 01:26:18 OP is talking nonsense. I was mission ganked by 3 ships today while flying my 7 L Ion blaster hyperion w/ 1 L NOS. I took down a Gallente navy vexor at very close range after he took out my drones, the arazu had me damped massively, but i managed to get to target an ishkur. The iskur could not even be hit despite being webbed, NOSsed, target painted, and within optimal. He held me for about 3 or 4 minutes until I ran out of cap charges, and eventuly got the killing blow. (FYI - I'd avoided the 2 cruisers earlier and went back with PVP fit to kill them, but Iskur won the fight for them) So....useless? Nope....VERY useful when used well. I was the ishkur in the fight and i have to agree with vyctor (However it was only a Celstis ;)) This fight was hours after the NOS nerf and i have to report that the ishkur preformed admirably. My cap refused to give out completely (I only had my web scram and blasters on him) and i was practacally un hittable. You get a nicely sized drone bay for a frigate, dps isnt anything to write home about but those drones are great for taking down enemy drones and once thats done an ishkur could easily take down a BS in a mission given time. Everyone whines about the suposed "missing bonus" on AFs as oposed to other tech 2 ships but, though annother bonus would always be nice :), it handles fine. In my experience AFs make fantastic heavy tacklers. All that could be improved it prehaps a small speed boost but apart from that id say ishkurs are great ships.
Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:21:00 - [41] I give up. It seems that most of you have never gotten into a real PvP fight and thus don't realize just how useless assault frigates are. If you doubt it, I will duel you in my t1 fitted cruiser and destroy you every time. ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Ron Lycan	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:25:00 - [42] Ishkur...Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur.... Ishkur is Fine really. Wolf and Jaguar are pretty good AF's. Retri is nice for that PvE and can do some damage if you really wanted to take it into PvP but the other AF's (maybe exception now for vengeance) need some reworking and a little tweaking. Can't go as fast as T1 Cruiser. Needs a small speed boost and probably mass reduction. 4th Bonus OFCOURSE. Those T2 Armor bonus should be built in, not part of the skill bonus.
Arkios Odymei D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:34:00 - [43] Originally by: Ismern I give up. It seems that most of you have never gotten into a real PvP fight and thus don't realize just how useless assault frigates are. If you doubt it, I will duel you in my t1 fitted cruiser and destroy you every time. Im sorry not many agrees with you that AF's are useless. Most of us are saying that they could use a little more "oomph" but they do not need a radical overhaul like it appears you want. A little less mass/sig radius, and maybe a fourth bonus and they will be perfect for what they are suposed to do, I think... ------------------------------------------------------------------
Maeltstome Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:49:00 - [44] Originally by: Ismern I don't know what you guys are using it for? The only thing I ever found an Ishkur useful for was running L1/L2 kill missions really quickly. As far as PvP goes, all AFs are terrible and will die to just about anything except a basic T1 frigate or T1 destroyer horribly (this includes getting maimed by interceptors). negative - ishkur, fitted properly (eg, not by these 4 nos noobs these days) - is a ceptor killing machine. There is basically not chance of a ceptor breaking its tank... but im putting a lot of weight on the shoulders of an AF pilot to be 'good'.
Maeltstome Minmatar Caldari Navy Raiders Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.08.29 22:51:00 - [45] Originally by: Ron Lycan Ishkur...Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur....Ishkur.... Ishkur is Fine really. Wolf and Jaguar are pretty good AF's. Retri is nice for that PvE and can do some damage if you really wanted to take it into PvP but the other AF's (maybe exception now for vengeance) need some reworking and a little tweaking. Can't go as fast as T1 Cruiser. Needs a small speed boost and probably mass reduction. 4th Bonus OFCOURSE. Those T2 Armor bonus should be built in, not part of the skill bonus. I'd sign that.
Volir Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.08.29 23:03:00 - [46] Originally by: Katrina Coreli I was the ishkur in the fight and i have to agree with vyctor (However it was only a Celstis ;)) This fight was hours after the NOS nerf and i have to report that the ishkur preformed admirably. My cap refused to give out completely (I only had my web scram and blasters on him) and i was practacally un hittable. You get a nicely sized drone bay for a frigate, dps isnt anything to write home about but those drones are great for taking down enemy drones and once thats done an ishkur could easily take down a BS in a mission given time. Everyone whines about the suposed "missing bonus" on AFs as oposed to other tech 2 ships but, though annother bonus would always be nice :), it handles fine. In my experience AFs make fantastic heavy tacklers. All that could be improved it prehaps a small speed boost but apart from that id say ishkurs are great ships. This one time I took an AF into a small gang fight, wasn't killed and got on a few killmails. Therefor, AFs are awesome. Plus, they're super awesome at killing interceptors, I mean, battlecruisers, HACs, destroyers, most cruisers, and T2 fit frigates are better at it, but AFs are great!
Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.29 23:03:00 - [47] Edited by: Ismern on 29/08/2007 23:03:28 Originally by: Maeltstome negative - ishkur, fitted properly (eg, not by these 4 nos noobs these days) - is a ceptor killing machine. There is basically not chance of a ceptor breaking its tank... but im putting a lot of weight on the shoulders of an AF pilot to be 'good'. Ok, apparently you misinterpreted what I said. Interceptors don't kill ships outside of T1 frigates, haulers, and barges. However, you will NOT be killing most interceptors in any assault frigate (maybe the Harpy) because all of those interceptors will just outrun you, your guns, and your drones. ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Drazin DawnTreader The Elear	Posted - 2007.08.29 23:08:00 - [48] Originally by: Katrina Coreli Originally by: Vyktor Abyss You get a nicely sized drone bay for a frigate, dps isnt anything to write home about but those drones are great for taking down enemy drones and once thats done an ishkur could easily take down a BS in a mission given time. Umm... isnt the Ishkur the Highest DPS Frigate there is?
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2007.08.29 23:20:00 - [49] Originally by: wettestwillie I agree. I think all creodron ships should be dedicated for drones. Leave the guns for the Enyo! i like the idea of a frig sized dronebaot but still what shall we do withthe highs on an ishkur if it would be changed like that? Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2007.08.30 00:40:00 - [50] Anyone who underestimates an AF, will eventually die by one, or two, or three. The Ishkur is arguably, one of the better AFs for either solo or small gang skirmishes. If you think no one flies AFs, well, I was flying one just a day or two ago, an Ishkur even. I also used it in a very small 0.0 gate camp, and got a kill or two with it. Once in a while, I see a post similar to this on the forums. And as if by coincedence, when I log in, I witness a most contrary event. People do fly Assault Frigates, they do have a use, all of them, and they shouldn't be underestimated.
Volir Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.08.30 02:05:00 - [51] Originally by: CherniyVolk Anyone who underestimates an AF, will eventually die by one, or two, or three. The Ishkur is arguably, one of the better AFs for either solo or small gang skirmishes. If you think no one flies AFs, well, I was flying one just a day or two ago, an Ishkur even. I also used it in a very small 0.0 gate camp, and got a kill or two with it. Once in a while, I see a post similar to this on the forums. And as if by coincedence, when I log in, I witness a most contrary event. People do fly Assault Frigates, they do have a use, all of them, and they shouldn't be underestimated. People constantly miss the point. AFs do not suck. Its just that everything they do can be done better by a cruiser. People fly AFs all the time because, lol T2 > T1. There is no role in Eve pvp where an assault ship is best suited. Can you even come up with a situation where an Assault frigate is best?
CherniyVolk	Posted - 2007.08.30 02:33:00 - [52] Originally by: Volir People constantly miss the point. AFs do not suck. Its just that everything they do can be done better by a cruiser. People fly AFs all the time because, lol T2 > T1. There is no role in Eve pvp where an assault ship is best suited. Can you even come up with a situation where an Assault frigate is best? Yes, I chose to use the Ishkur, for the agility of being able to move about 0.0 quickly and with enough firepower to pose a threat to many more ships than in an Interceptor. If I was going to get into a Cruiser, I would have either a Deimos or an Ishtar. If I wanted a Battlecruiser, then it'll be either an Astarte or an Eos... get the picture? The only T1 ships I fly are some faction ships and battleships. Secondly, if I were to seriously undock in a T1 cruiser, say a Thorax, it also has THREE rig slots that would probably get filled with something just to squeeze out some value at whatever task I'm going for. Making the T1 Cruiser far more expensive than a more agile and able T2 Frigate.
Lost Vagus	Posted - 2007.08.30 03:08:00 - [53] Originally by: Volir People constantly miss the point. AFs do not suck. Its just that everything they do can be done better by a cruiser. People fly AFs all the time because, lol T2 > T1. There is no role in Eve pvp where an assault ship is best suited. Can you even come up with a situation where an Assault frigate is best? tanking L4's when you cant find a shuttle?
Hllaxiu Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.08.30 03:25:00 - [54] Edited by: Hllaxiu on 30/08/2007 03:25:48 Originally by: Maeltstome negative - ishkur, fitted properly (eg, not by these 4 nos noobs these days) - is a ceptor killing machine. There is basically not chance of a ceptor breaking its tank... but im putting a lot of weight on the shoulders of an AF pilot to be 'good'. How do you kill a standard crow? (for the record, I've done it before and won - 1vs1 fight, Ishkur vs standard missile armed crow - it was only because he made a piloting error) --- Our greatest glory is not in never failing, but in rising up every time we fail. - Emerson
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.08.30 03:59:00 - [55] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 30/08/2007 03:59:40 Originally by: Stuart Price Here's what I have done with a Harpy: 1. Killed a Brutix. His t2 drones got popped in short order, even when orbiting me. Then his blasters couldn't hit once I got in close and kept transversal up. Granted, he wasn't fitted by a total muppet (no web, although he did pack a scram, no nos or neuts) and I did have a couple of inties tackling but the point remains valid. I'd never, ever undock my Hurricane without a web. Typically Fleeting, and X5 is nearly as good for a small part of the cost. I ransomed that Hurricane with my Jaguar the same way - just orbited at 1km and held him in place. After his drones died, well, he really couldn't do anything. It just means there are pilots who are complete muppets at fitting ships. Quote: negative - ishkur, fitted properly (eg, not by these 4 nos noobs these days) - is a ceptor killing machine. There is basically not chance of a ceptor breaking its tank... but im putting a lot of weight on the shoulders of an AF pilot to be 'good'. Well, OK, but you can't really hold down a long range ceptor with it, and crows will just laugh at you. Any short range inty who comes into ishkur's webrange is asking to die, anyway. Quote: People constantly miss the point. AFs do not suck. Its just that everything they do can be done better by a cruiser. People fly AFs all the time because, lol T2 > T1. There is no role in Eve pvp where an assault ship is best suited. Can you even come up with a situation where an Assault frigate is best? True. People love flying frigs though, so AFs are preety much the natural choice for a frig lover. The gripe with them is that they're terribly ISK inefficent. Every serious AF pilots will know the fights he can win are very limited, and underestimating a pilot (like, expecting he didn't fit a web + MWD) can be an extremely costly error. Quote: Yes, I chose to use the Ishkur, for the agility of being able to move about 0.0 quickly and with enough firepower to pose a threat to many more ships than in an Interceptor. If I was going to get into a Cruiser, I would have either a Deimos or an Ishtar. If I wanted a Battlecruiser, then it'll be either an Astarte or an Eos... get the picture? The only T1 ships I fly are some faction ships and battleships. Secondly, if I were to seriously undock in a T1 cruiser, say a Thorax, it also has THREE rig slots that would probably get filled with something just to squeeze out some value at whatever task I'm going for. Making the T1 Cruiser far more expensive than a more agile and able T2 Frigate. Meep, T1 ships are for the most part more cost-efficent. Some HACs can be nano-ed, giving them nice survivability, so they offer something extra over T1 cruisers. Still, engaging a BC pilot in a close-range HAC could very well be a preety high financial drain on you. Anyway, Ishkur agility is NOT anything to write home about. I find it funny that a plated Rifter actually outpaces it with just an AB ;P Originally by: Tsanse Kinske The second you start equating time spent playing a game with lost time and money is the second you need to ask yourself "Why am I playing?". Seriously
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.30 04:46:00 - [56] I'm sorry, Ismern, but I just have to ask. Have you ever been in 0.0? --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Akashyi Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.30 04:53:00 - [57] Originally by: Maeltstome Originally by: Ismern I don't know what you guys are using it for? The only thing I ever found an Ishkur useful for was running L1/L2 kill missions really quickly. As far as PvP goes, all AFs are terrible and will die to just about anything except a basic T1 frigate or T1 destroyer horribly (this includes getting maimed by interceptors). negative - ishkur, fitted properly (eg, not by these 4 nos noobs these days) - is a ceptor killing machine. There is basically not chance of a ceptor breaking its tank... but im putting a lot of weight on the shoulders of an AF pilot to be 'good'. Ceptor can break its tank, but the ishkur will do the same to the ceptor, quicker.
Janet Marshall Caldari	Posted - 2007.08.30 05:10:00 - [58] Originally by: Daelana Dont touch my ishkur! Agreed! the op is full of BS. the ishkur is incredible wit hthe proper skillz. I can solo some battlecruisers with it.. and the ocasional raven. its an amazing gang support ship also!
Karille Lordless	Posted - 2007.08.30 05:17:00 - [59] FFS don't touch the Ishkur! (unless you're giving it another bonus) I've killed all sorts of ships in it and the only thing that gave me any trouble was nos. I suspect my day has come. _________________________________________________________
Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.30 05:46:00 - [60] Haha, very funny Cyan. Maybe next time you should actually read the corp/alliance sticker. I've been here a long time. I remember one time when I thought, maybe the Ishkur could be useful. So I tried flying one around a while, and while it has decent damage, it's too slow to be effective. I would hands down hop in a cruiser and solo against an Ishkur any day of the week. Not only will I destroy said Ishkur, but my setup will cost less than the hull. ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.30 06:27:00 - [61] Oh, believe me, I saw the alliance tag. Otherwise I'd just assume you'd never been there and move on. In alliance wars, small gangs of fast ships such as AFs can be very effective. During the short time I spent in 0.0, I participated in a few such gangs and we usually caused more ISK damage than the total cost of our ships. Not all combat is the all-out slugfest of big battles. Disrupting logistics, ratting, and simple daily life of your enemies is a pretty big part, too. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Kesc Firing Squad	Posted - 2007.08.30 15:50:00 - [62] The only semi optimised role for AF's is as damage dealers in fast moving frig only gangs. Even then they don't particularly outdamage some of the inty's like a ranis. Jaguar is okay since it's fast enough to double up as a tackler. Harpy is okay too I suppose though I'd prefer a properly fitted Thrasher or Coercer. In general though they are in the same speed and damage league as cruisers, while being more expensive, and more susceptible to webs, ewar, nos, neuts etc. Definitely give them a mass and speed buff at the least.
Ismern GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.30 15:55:00 - [63] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Oh, believe me, I saw the alliance tag. Otherwise I'd just assume you'd never been there and move on. In alliance wars, small gangs of fast ships such as AFs can be very effective. During the short time I spent in 0.0, I participated in a few such gangs and we usually caused more ISK damage than the total cost of our ships. Not all combat is the all-out slugfest of big battles. Disrupting logistics, ratting, and simple daily life of your enemies is a pretty big part, too. Seems that if YOU spent more time in 0.0, then you'd understand what I'm trying to say. ----------------------------------------------------------- The winners of EVE have spoken. Let's all quit GoonSwarm and go to Empire while we still have some ISK left.
Jonny Magellan Amarr Dastardly Bastards	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:20:00 - [64] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Oh, believe me, I saw the alliance tag. Otherwise I'd just assume you'd never been there and move on. In alliance wars, small gangs of fast ships such as AFs can be very effective. During the short time I spent in 0.0, I participated in a few such gangs and we usually caused more ISK damage than the total cost of our ships. Not all combat is the all-out slugfest of big battles. Disrupting logistics, ratting, and simple daily life of your enemies is a pretty big part, too. mate whats the fast ship you re flying, AFs are slower than cruisers. AFs need to near frig mass reduction and 4th bonus would be nice.
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.08.30 16:48:00 - [65] Oh, well I agree that AFs should be a little bit faster than they are, but I'd take my Retribution over my Maller any day in a gang. It tanks better and dishes out better DPS. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Jonny Magellan Amarr Dastardly Bastards	Posted - 2007.08.30 17:33:00 - [66] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Oh, well I agree that AFs should be a little bit faster than they are, but I'd take my Retribution over my Maller any day in a gang. It tanks better and dishes out better DPS. Yeah the retri is a beast. Its just that the damn mass that cuts mwd top speed so much while cruisers and hacs dont have this problem..
Akashyi Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.30 19:11:00 - [67] retribution is alright with medium beams..

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