| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Leighanne
   |
Posted - 2007.08.29 02:47:00 -
[1]
Please keep in mind that the following is not a whine - tbh I will be content if nothing is changed or if something is changed - this is purely for my own curiosity nothing more.
I've always wondered why the other races - ie: not Caldari - each have at least one if not more ships that can fit a full complement of turrets for their class. To keep things easy I will only be looking at BS class ships because well I don't really fly anything smaller.
My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's were as the most launchers (caldari being largely a missile based race) can only ever fit 7 at most launchers on their BS (and this is a faction ship CNR) or 6 at the most on a standard BS.
I'm going to hazard a guess and say that this would somehow overpower the Raven - but we're at a point after the missile nerf and where Caldari are generally regarded as having on the whole the lowest DPS ships and being the weakest at PVP.
Surely if we were able to fit 8 launchers on our BS this would bring its missile firepower into line with the other races 8 turret (or the rokh for that matter) DPS? Or am I completely incorrect with this ?
It the reason for only allowing 7 launcher slots max on caldari ships because 8 launchers would result in an unbalanced Alpha strike? or give specifically the Raven way too much firepower?
If anyone knows the actual reason - perhaps some of th much older players - I'd love to know purely for my own interest if there is a reaon for this.
Again keep in mind I am NOT asking for an 8 Launcher Caldari ship - I am NOT whining about anything - I am merely asking a question of interest to myself nothing more nothing less.
- Leighanne
|
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar
Sicarri Covenant
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 02:58:00 -
[2]
Cause 7 is a lucky number, and caldari ships need all the luck they can get 
Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
|
Igualmentedos
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 03:11:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Igualmentedos on 29/08/2007 03:11:24
I would LOVE, for this to happen. I'm not sure why it hasn't already, but its quite obvious you seem to show much more intelligence than the designer of caldari.
|
Fuk Mi
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 11:41:00 -
[4]
Hmm.... I fit 8 BS sized turrets on my Rokh just fine.....
Nothing wrong here....
|
Steve Hawkings
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 11:45:00 -
[5]
yeah one word.
ROKH
|
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 11:47:00 -
[6]
Why would you need more than seven launchers? Why are you even using missiles? 
|
Leighanne
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 11:50:00 -
[7]
Fuk Mi ... you must be visually impaired - I did specify launchers - If you still feel the need to troll I can recommend a good optometrist?
 Quote:
into line with the other races 8 turret (or the rokh for that matter) DPS?
See I recognised the Rokh can fit 8 turrets - but 8 Launchers is a different matter.
I think I've already listed the probably reasons for not letting us have 8 launchers. Are they accurate sounding?
THIS IS NOT A WHINE THIS IS FOR MY OWN INTEREST ONLY.
|
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 11:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: cal nereus
Why would you need more than seven launchers? Why are you even using missiles?
Cause then I don't have to worry about tracking or any of the other stuffs that makes my brain hurt when I use guns. And I can use any damage type I like.
It would be cool if the Raven could fit 8 launchers, you could really canter through level 4 missions and earn gazillions of risk free ISK. Gawd, you can almost see the whining piwats heads exploding at the thought.
|
Stakhanov
Katana's Edge
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:02:00 -
[9]
Rage torps do very respectable damage I think...
If the Raven were made more effective in PvP with extra launcher hardpoints , it would be the only BS ever used in PvE.
Increasing launcher hardpoints to match turret hardpoints would be arbitrary. It's best to not try to fix what isn't broke.
The Raven is also one of the few BS that can switch its damage type without affecting the DPS or range. It's a pretty powerful feature when you think about it.
Originally by: Cipher7
If you manage to get baited, what's your skill, being a good victim?
|
Xantia Gedur
House of Gedur
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:04:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Leighanne
My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's were as the most launchers (caldari being largely a missile based race) can only ever fit 7 at most launchers on their BS (and this is a faction ship CNR) or 6 at the most on a standard BS.
Because the raven was designed when missiles used to be uber. Since then missiles have been nerfed 'balanced' to hell.
I think there needs to be a review of launcher vs turret dps because a lot has changed and i'm sure any caldari missile user esp raven pilot will tell you that their dps even with max skills is poor compared to those that use turrents.
But the devs dont fly caldari or minmatar much less use missiles outside of missions so for this to get attention you will have to whine for about 8 months. 
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:12:00 -
[11]
And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time!
Oh wait, because they're a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WEAPON SYSTEM, thats it.
--------
|
Jacob Holland
Gallente
19th Star Logistics
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:19:00 -
[12]
Up until the Rohk, Hyperion and Maelstrom only the Amarr had a battleship which would fit eight turrets, seen in that light and compared to the Tempest's 6 turrets the Raven is perfectly sensible. As it is the Tempest (6 Turrets), Megathron (7 Turrets) and the Apocolypse (8 Turrets) which the Raven should be compared to it remains reasonable.
--
Originally by: cordy
Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
|
Foppemoa
Caldari
Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:21:00 -
[13]
on a sidenote I think it was planned for the Drake to use 8 launcher, considering that the model itself looks like it has 8 launcher-thingies on each side.
But being a caldari missile user I would really love to have 8 launchers on my CNR atleast ^_^
Sadly, i doubt that this will ever happen though.
|
Leighanne
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:37:00 -
[14]
Quote:
Rage torps do very respectable damage I think...
Yes I think they do quite respectable dmg as well.
Quote:
If the Raven were made more effective in PvP with extra launcher hardpoints , it would be the only BS ever used in PvE.
Now thats a good reason.
Quote:
Increasing launcher hardpoints to match turret hardpoints would be arbitrary. It's best to not try to fix what isn't broke.
Since when was I ever trying to fix anything?
I don't think its broken I don't think it needs fixing ... I was simply curious nothing more.
Quote:
It's a pretty powerful feature when you think about it.
Yeah I suppose so.
Quote:
Because the raven was designed when missiles used to be uber. Since then missiles have been nerfed 'balanced' to hell.
Yes this is probably correct - but again I am not asking for a balance or a change or a nerf. This is probably the reason why no Caldari ships have more then 7 Launchers max - because back in the day it would have been super overpowered. Whether it is now or not is not what this thread is for.
Quote:
And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time!
Duh because only Carriers and MS can launch more then 5 at a time. Has nothing to do with being a different weapon system - don't be a moron again.
Quote:
Up until the Rohk, Hyperion and Maelstrom only the Amarr had a battleship which would fit eight turrets, seen in that light and compared to the Tempest's 6 turrets the Raven is perfectly sensible. As it is the Tempest (6 Turrets), Megathron (7 Turrets) and the Apocolypse (8 Turrets) which the Raven should be compared to it remains reasonable.
True - in that case perhaps an 8 Launcher Caldari ship is somewhere in the future?
Thanks for the input those of you who actually get the point of this thread.
To those who still don't understand even after me saying it twice and once in caps.
THIS IS NOT A WHINE - THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR 8 LAUNCHERS - I DON'T WANT ANYTHING CHANGED - I DON'T WANT A NERF OR A BUFF - I WANT EVERYTHING THATS IN GAME TO STAY JUST THE WAY IT IS - THIS IS FOR MY OWN CURIOSITY ONLY NOTHING MORE.
I think my curiosity has been satisfied - but if people keep posting I'll keep replying.
|
Cypherous
Minmatar
Liberty Rogues
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:45:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Leighanne
True - in that case perhaps an 8 Launcher Caldari ship is somewhere in the future?
There is one its called a state issue raven, getting one however will prove to be somewhat difficult ^^
---------
Liberty Rogues Website
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:59:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Leighanne
Quote:
And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time!
Duh because only Carriers and MS can launch more then 5 at a time. Has nothing to do with being a different weapon system - don't be a moron again.
I think you miss my point. Missiles are no more a direct analogue of turrets than drones are. Assuming that it is the right answer to have an exact 1 for 1 ratio of turrets and missiles is making the assumption that 1 missile launcher = exactly 1 turret, or that a turret ship with 8 turrets is exactly as good as a missile ship with 8 launchers.
Thats a matter of such supreme complexity I wouldn't even want to attempt to figure it out (and it seems you haven't tried any harder, either). There are so many differences between turrets and missiles that figuring out a balance is never going to be as simple ass matching DPS. Missiles have many advantages over turrets (and turrets have some advantages over missiles too)- maybe the increased DPS from an 8 slot turret ship is necessary to keep the two in check. Or maybe not. But lets see the numbers.
Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced.
--------
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 12:59:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Leighanne
Quote:
And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time!
Duh because only Carriers and MS can launch more then 5 at a time. Has nothing to do with being a different weapon system - don't be a moron again.
I think you miss my point. Missiles are no more a direct analogue of turrets than drones are. Assuming that it is the right answer to have an exact 1 for 1 ratio of turrets and missiles is making the assumption that 1 missile launcher = exactly 1 turret, or that a turret ship with 8 turrets is exactly as good as a missile ship with 8 launchers.
Thats a matter of such supreme complexity I wouldn't even want to attempt to figure it out (and it seems you haven't tried any harder, either). There are so many differences between turrets and missiles that figuring out a balance is never going to be as simple ass matching DPS. Missiles have many advantages over turrets (and turrets have some advantages over missiles too)- maybe the increased DPS from an 8 slot turret ship is necessary to keep the two in check. Or maybe not. But lets see the numbers.
Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced.
--------
|
Fuk Mi
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:06:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Leighanne
I've always wondered why the other races - ie: not Caldari - each have at least one if not more ships that can fit a full complement of turrets for their class. To keep things easy I will only be looking at BS class ships because well I don't really fly anything smaller.
My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's
If anyone knows the actual reason - perhaps some of th much older players - I'd love to know purely for my own interest if there is a reaon for this.
- Leighanne
|
Fuk Mi
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:06:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Fuk Mi on 29/08/2007 13:10:06
Originally by: Leighanne
I've always wondered why the other races - ie: not Caldari - each have at least one if not more ships that can fit a full complement of turrets for their class. To keep things easy I will only be looking at BS class ships because well I don't really fly anything smaller.
My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's
If anyone knows the actual reason - perhaps some of th much older players - I'd love to know purely for my own interest if there is a reaon for this.
- Leighanne
Yes, you do mention launchers.... after alot of other stuff....
but as an older player (yes this is an alt) at one time missles were support weapons.
once they came in piles of 10 rather than 100 with the same production cost....
Early on caldari were much more a railgun race. In the original launch missle ships were not meant to fight alone, they were fire support for other parts of a fleet, hence other high slots were meant for them to protect themselves with guns, not more launchers.
|
Asestorian
Minmatar
Domination.
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:08:00 -
[20]
The reason there are turret ships with 8 turret hardpoints, but only one missile ship with 8 missile hardpoints (state raven) is because they don't need to be the same. They are different weapon systems, and they do different things.
Weapon systems in EVE are designed to be different. They all operate in different ways, and so you don't need extra hardpoints just because turret ships have them. Otherwise it would simply be case of "everything is the same except for the pretty colours". And to be honest, that sucks.
---
---
|
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:19:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Dez Affinity on 29/08/2007 13:22:27
Originally by: Patch86
Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced.
Tell that to Ogre IIs. 1 Ogre II gets 63 DPS with max skills. 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void gets 66 DPS. 1 drone DOES = 1 turret, or there about. They work the same too, except one takes cap and one doesn't. One can get jammed the other can't. They are very similar.
_______________
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced.
Tell that to Ogre IIs. 1 Ogre II gets 63 DPS with max skills. 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void gets 66 DPS. 1 drone DOES = 1 turret, or there about.
"Damage wise they're very similar..."
Read what you're quoting, dude
--------
|
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced.
Tell that to Ogre IIs. 1 Ogre II gets 63 DPS with max skills. 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void gets 66 DPS. 1 drone DOES = 1 turret, or there about.
"Damage wise they're very similar..."
Read what you're quoting, dude
I did but I clicked reply before I was finished, then when I tried to edit.. it doesn't exist lmao.
Anyway, they are very similar in more than just damage. If anything drones are at an advantage. They don't run out of cap, they don't get jammed, they may be destroyable but they are also recallable. Other than that it works pretty much the same you click engage and the damage starts hitting.
_______________
|
Foppemoa
Caldari
Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:26:00 -
[24]
Also, a Domi for example can have 6 turrets and 5 heavy drones at the same time. that's allot of pew pew
|
J'Mkarr Soban
Amarr
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:27:00 -
[25]
I agree completely. I've never thought of it before, to be honest. But it makes sense. Ignoring some of the idiotic answers above, the Caldari missile boats which have a specific missile platform role should have the same number of launcher slots as the equivalent turret boat (for example, the Drake should have 8 launcher slots to match the Harbinger's 8 turret slots, the Raven should have 8 launcher slots to match the Apocalypse).
But on the same hand, not every race follows the same rules. No other race has an ECM ship, for example. But role-specific ships should match other role-specific ships (Raven is the only BS class missile boat, so it should be comparable to a BS class turret boat, i.e. 8 slots). It's certainly hard enough to fit it with 6 Siege Launchers though.
-----------------------------
"Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow."
"Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?"
"..." |
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:29:00 -
[26]
Ah, you see thats exactly my point!
Drones have approximately the same DPS as a turret, so simple logic should dictate that you need the same number on a drone ship as you do a turret ship (8 drones).
But drones have all sorts of other advantages over turrets. Like you say, capless, E-War immune, no ammo, no optimum range, etc. They have some disavantages too (destroyable, delayed alpha, and so forth).
So, 5 drones is more than enough. Arguing that you need 8 is pointless, because they're not the same. A Dominix is plenty effective enough with 5 Ogres, and compares favourably with a Hyperion with 8 turrets.
--------
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Foppemoa
Also, a Domi for example can have 6 turrets and 5 heavy drones at the same time. that's allot of pew pew
And a Hyperion can have 8 turrets and 4 heavy drones. Whats your point?
--------
|
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik
Gallente
Rampage Eternal
Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:32:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Leighanne
THIS IS NOT A WHINE - THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR 8 LAUNCHERS - I DON'T WANT ANYTHING CHANGED - I DON'T WANT A NERF OR A BUFF - I WANT EVERYTHING THATS IN GAME TO STAY JUST THE WAY IT IS - THIS IS FOR MY OWN CURIOSITY ONLY NOTHING MORE.
ZOMG! STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE WHINING ABOUT YOUR WHINGING!1!!
Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place?
Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag |
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:35:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Patch86
Ah, you see thats exactly my point!
Drones have approximately the same DPS as a turret, so simple logic should dictate that you need the same number on a drone ship as you do a turret ship (8 drones).
But drones have all sorts of other advantages over turrets. Like you say, capless, E-War immune, no ammo, no optimum range, etc. They have some disavantages too (destroyable, delayed alpha, and so forth).
So, 5 drones is more than enough. Arguing that you need 8 is pointless, because they're not the same. A Dominix is plenty effective enough with 5 Ogres, and compares favourably with a Hyperion with 8 turrets.
I'm gonna hop on the 'buff Caldari' bandwagon again :P
Caldari BS get less launcher hardpoints and smaller dronebays, so naturally they will always get lower DPS at the expense of the fact they can shooty shooty from whereever. With max skills a Siege Launcher II gets 56 dps, that's 10 less than a Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, yet they also can't fit as many launchers. So even if they could they would have less damage anyway. Especially considering their drone bays do not allow for effective use of larger drones that some turret ships do.
BUUF TEH CALDARIEE PL0X
_______________
|
Foppemoa
Caldari
Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:43:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Foppemoa
Also, a Domi for example can have 6 turrets and 5 heavy drones at the same time. that's allot of pew pew
And a Hyperion can have 8 turrets and 4 heavy drones. Whats your point?
It was more to compare it to the Raven which is also locked to the whole max 6 highslot weapon limit. My point was that a Domi can chuck out more painÖ then the Raven.
If a ship is supposed to be a droneboat i personally don't think it should also have the possibility to deal allot of damage with guns at the same time.
For the same reason i don't think a raven should have a whooping large dronebay, since it is a missile platform.
The Domi is basically shooting with 6 neuts and at the same time having another 5 neuts orbiting it.
(btw: nothing bad about the domi alone, it's just an example)
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:44:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Ah, you see thats exactly my point!
Drones have approximately the same DPS as a turret, so simple logic should dictate that you need the same number on a drone ship as you do a turret ship (8 drones).
But drones have all sorts of other advantages over turrets. Like you say, capless, E-War immune, no ammo, no optimum range, etc. They have some disavantages too (destroyable, delayed alpha, and so forth).
So, 5 drones is more than enough. Arguing that you need 8 is pointless, because they're not the same. A Dominix is plenty effective enough with 5 Ogres, and compares favourably with a Hyperion with 8 turrets.
I'm gonna hop on the 'buff Caldari' bandwagon again :P
Caldari BS get less launcher hardpoints and smaller dronebays, so naturally they will always get lower DPS at the expense of the fact they can shooty shooty from whereever. With max skills a Siege Launcher II gets 56 dps, that's 10 less than a Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, yet they also can't fit as many launchers. So even if they could they would have less damage anyway. Especially considering their drone bays do not allow for effective use of larger drones that some turret ships do.
BUUF TEH CALDARIEE PL0X
But isn't the base range of a torpedo about 40km, and a cruise missile about 75km? While the optimum base range of a Neutron Blaster (the heaviest weapon available- theres no way you'll see any 8 neutron setups that are cpabale of much of anything) is 6km?
Not to mention the fact that missiles don't suffer from the same inaccuracies when used against an appropriate target, and have a completely free choice of damage type (while blasters are locked in to therm / kin). And on the flipside, are massively diminished against small targets, and have a massively delayed alpha.
Surely thats a few factors that need taking in to account?
--------
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:49:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Foppemoa
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Foppemoa
Also, a Domi for example can have 6 turrets and 5 heavy drones at the same time. that's allot of pew pew
And a Hyperion can have 8 turrets and 4 heavy drones. Whats your point?
It was more to compare it to the Raven which is also locked to the whole max 6 highslot weapon limit. My point was that a Domi can chuck out more painÖ then the Raven.
If a ship is supposed to be a droneboat i personally don't think it should also have the possibility to deal allot of damage with guns at the same time.
For the same reason i don't think a raven should have a whooping large dronebay, since it is a missile platform.
The Domi is basically shooting with 6 neuts and at the same time having another 5 neuts orbiting it.
(btw: nothing bad about the domi alone, it's just an example)
Raven can fit 6 launchers, 2 turrets and 3 heavy drones. With decent skills (admittedly pretty tough to have great skills in all three, but thats a separate issue) thats the same number of equivalently powered weapons as the Domi.
--------
|
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 13:54:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Ah, you see thats exactly my point!
Drones have approximately the same DPS as a turret, so simple logic should dictate that you need the same number on a drone ship as you do a turret ship (8 drones).
But drones have all sorts of other advantages over turrets. Like you say, capless, E-War immune, no ammo, no optimum range, etc. They have some disavantages too (destroyable, delayed alpha, and so forth).
So, 5 drones is more than enough. Arguing that you need 8 is pointless, because they're not the same. A Dominix is plenty effective enough with 5 Ogres, and compares favourably with a Hyperion with 8 turrets.
I'm gonna hop on the 'buff Caldari' bandwagon again :P
Caldari BS get less launcher hardpoints and smaller dronebays, so naturally they will always get lower DPS at the expense of the fact they can shooty shooty from whereever. With max skills a Siege Launcher II gets 56 dps, that's 10 less than a Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, yet they also can't fit as many launchers. So even if they could they would have less damage anyway. Especially considering their drone bays do not allow for effective use of larger drones that some turret ships do.
BUUF TEH CALDARIEE PL0X
But isn't the base range of a torpedo about 40km, and a cruise missile about 75km? While the optimum base range of a Neutron Blaster (the heaviest weapon available- theres no way you'll see any 8 neutron setups that are cpabale of much of anything) is 6km?
Not to mention the fact that missiles don't suffer from the same inaccuracies when used against an appropriate target, and have a completely free choice of damage type (while blasters are locked in to therm / kin). And on the flipside, are massively diminished against small targets, and have a massively delayed alpha.
Surely thats a few factors that need taking in to account?
Max skills.
Base optimal of T2 Torps (Rage) are 23km
Base optimal of T2 Cruise (Fury) are 39km
Base optimal of Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Void) is 13km
The range bonus isn't even that amazing when you consider what you need to get the highest DPS, 40km is nothing these days.
Yes, you're right, fitting 8 Neutrons is very difficult. Fitting 6 Torps is also very difficult. Also choosing your damage is quite difficult unless you know your opponent, it's not often you find yourself coming up against an opponent that tanks you (and friends) long enough for you to need to drastically change your damage output - though this is talking about gang work. Solo obvious choosing damage helps but it also hinders you for a good 10 seconds while you do this change. Choosing damage is only beneficial against bad setups with big holes in resists, IMO.
_______________
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:03:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Base optimal of T2 Torps (Rage) are 23km
Base optimal of T2 Cruise (Fury) are 39km
Base optimal of Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Void) is 13km
Thats not a very fair comparison. Void is the longest range blaster ammo, while Fury and Rage are the shortest range missiles of their class. Thats comparing the very most maximum with Blasters with the very most minimum with missiles.
--------
|
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:06:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Base optimal of T2 Torps (Rage) are 23km
Base optimal of T2 Cruise (Fury) are 39km
Base optimal of Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Void) is 13km
Thats not a very fair comparison. Void is the longest range blaster ammo, while Fury and Rage are the shortest range missiles of their class. Thats comparing the very most maximum with Blasters with the very most minimum with missiles.
Wrong.
_______________
|
Shevar
Minmatar
A.W.M
Ka-Tet
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Xantia Gedur
Originally by: Leighanne
My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's were as the most launchers (caldari being largely a missile based race) can only ever fit 7 at most launchers on their BS (and this is a faction ship CNR) or 6 at the most on a standard BS.
Because the raven was designed when missiles used to be uber. Since then missiles have been nerfed 'balanced' to hell.
I think there needs to be a review of launcher vs turret dps because a lot has changed and i'm sure any caldari missile user esp raven pilot will tell you that their dps even with max skills is poor compared to those that use turrents.
But the devs dont fly caldari or minmatar much less use missiles outside of missions so for this to get attention you will have to whine for about 8 months.
When the raven was introduced the only ships capable of fitting 8 weapons didn't have ship bonusses affecting all their high slots like the Apoc (actually the apoc was the only ship having 8 turret slots).
---
-The only real drug problem is scoring real good drugs
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:09:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Base optimal of T2 Torps (Rage) are 23km
Base optimal of T2 Cruise (Fury) are 39km
Base optimal of Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Void) is 13km
Thats not a very fair comparison. Void is the longest range blaster ammo, while Fury and Rage are the shortest range missiles of their class. Thats comparing the very most maximum with Blasters with the very most minimum with missiles.
Wrong.
Which bit? Seriously, I want to know! It's not like I use either very often
--------
|
Dez Affinity
Ore Mongers
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Base optimal of T2 Torps (Rage) are 23km
Base optimal of T2 Cruise (Fury) are 39km
Base optimal of Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Void) is 13km
Thats not a very fair comparison. Void is the longest range blaster ammo, while Fury and Rage are the shortest range missiles of their class. Thats comparing the very most maximum with Blasters with the very most minimum with missiles.
Wrong.
Which bit? Seriously, I want to know! It's not like I use either very often
Void is close range. Null is long range. You have an Ishkur in your signature dude.. you should know this.
_______________
|
Alenina
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:12:00 -
[39]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
for example, the Drake should have 8 launcher slots to match the Harbinger's 8 turret slots
Sorry mate, the Harbinger only has 7 turret slots.
|
Patch86
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Originally by: Patch86
Originally by: Dez Affinity
Base optimal of T2 Torps (Rage) are 23km
Base optimal of T2 Cruise (Fury) are 39km
Base optimal of Neutron Blaster Cannon II (Void) is 13km
Thats not a very fair comparison. Void is the longest range blaster ammo, while Fury and Rage are the shortest range missiles of their class. Thats comparing the very most maximum with Blasters with the very most minimum with missiles.
Wrong.
Which bit? Seriously, I want to know! It's not like I use either very often
Void is close range. Null is long range. You have an Ishkur in your signature dude.. you should know this.
Heh, I don't do T2 turrets, almost all my best SP are in Drones.
Stupidly really, seeing as I've had the prereqs done for a month or two now. Just need to get round to it. But turrets have never been a big part of my PvP style.
Hell, I was flying a nos Domi until a few days ago
--------
|
TerrorWOLF
PURE Legion
Pure.
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:24:00 -
[41]
Originally by: J'Mkarr Soban
I agree completely. I've never thought of it before, to be honest. But it makes sense. Ignoring some of the idiotic answers above, the Caldari missile boats which have a specific missile platform role should have the same number of launcher slots as the equivalent turret boat (for example, the Drake should have 8 launcher slots to match the Harbinger's 8 turret slots, the Raven should have 8 launcher slots to match the Apocalypse).
But on the same hand, not every race follows the same rules. No other race has an ECM ship, for example. But role-specific ships should match other role-specific ships (Raven is the only BS class missile boat, so it should be comparable to a BS class turret boat, i.e. 8 slots). It's certainly hard enough to fit it with 6 Siege Launchers though.
You have an Amarr avatar but you newer set in a Amarr ship. Harbinger has 7 turrets not 8
And Apoc might have 8 turrets but it dont have a ship bonus for turrets. So if the Raven gets 8 launchers then the 5% RoF bonus needs to go. Do you see now where the balance is ??
May Your Death Be Slow And Painful
|
Grimm Tbone
Caldari
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 14:34:00 -
[42]
As a Caldari pilot i also wondered this and came to the following conclusion. Every race as a Primary, 2ndary, and Tertiary "weapon system" they also have a primary means of defense. Based upon my experience, Caldari went like this:
Primary: Missles
2ndary: Rails
Tertiary: EWar
Defense: Shields (Engineering)
That defense part is the important one. Because we are a shield race, we require many points in engineering to function in that sense. However Engineering also governs the use of energy vampires, transfers, etc... meaning a raven has 6 slots for its primary weapon system (torps/cruises) and 2 that can be fitted with either the 2ndary or Tertiary system, rails or Nos/Neut etc... (which i consider part of Ewar i guess)I think it also allows them to give the missle bonus on ravens a bit of a boost, as they cannot fit 8 of them. most of the 8 gun fitting ships, have only 1 boost to the guns, and 1 to something else to balance that 8th gun. 8 turrets on a raven without the velocity bonus and with a bonus to say Nos range instead = same **** different day.
|
Anator Namon
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 16:48:00 -
[43]
The Tempest only has 6 turret slots. Of course, it also has a double bonus to turrets, just like the Raven has to missiles.
|
Katabrok First
Caldari
Asguard Security Service
Angels Of Discord
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 18:52:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Grimm Tbone
As a Caldari pilot i also wondered this and came to the following conclusion. Every race as a Primary, 2ndary, and Tertiary "weapon system" they also have a primary means of defense. Based upon my experience, Caldari went like this:
Primary: Missles
2ndary: Rails
Tertiary: EWar
Defense: Shields (Engineering)
That defense part is the important one. Because we are a shield race, we require many points in engineering to function in that sense. However Engineering also governs the use of energy vampires, transfers, etc... meaning a raven has 6 slots for its primary weapon system (torps/cruises) and 2 that can be fitted with either the 2ndary or Tertiary system, rails or Nos/Neut etc... (which i consider part of Ewar i guess)I think it also allows them to give the missle bonus on ravens a bit of a boost, as they cannot fit 8 of them. most of the 8 gun fitting ships, have only 1 boost to the guns, and 1 to something else to balance that 8th gun. 8 turrets on a raven without the velocity bonus and with a bonus to say Nos range instead = same **** different day.
TBone, if you allow me to desagree, Caldari is a rail race first, and a missile race second. Trough the years, as missiles were becoming usable weapons, then overpowered weapons, and then balanced weapons, the caldari race has become identified with missiles. Initially, the raven (or the scorpion, not sure) was a railship.
Katabrok, the space barbarian.
I want the The Correct DreadÖ!!!! |
Lurtz
Caldari
Gunrunners and Gamblers
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 19:09:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Katabrok First
Originally by: Grimm Tbone
As a Caldari pilot i also wondered this and came to the following conclusion. Every race as a Primary, 2ndary, and Tertiary "weapon system" they also have a primary means of defense. Based upon my experience, Caldari went like this:
Primary: Missles
2ndary: Rails
Tertiary: EWar
Defense: Shields (Engineering)
That defense part is the important one. Because we are a shield race, we require many points in engineering to function in that sense. However Engineering also governs the use of energy vampires, transfers, etc... meaning a raven has 6 slots for its primary weapon system (torps/cruises) and 2 that can be fitted with either the 2ndary or Tertiary system, rails or Nos/Neut etc... (which i consider part of Ewar i guess)I think it also allows them to give the missle bonus on ravens a bit of a boost, as they cannot fit 8 of them. most of the 8 gun fitting ships, have only 1 boost to the guns, and 1 to something else to balance that 8th gun. 8 turrets on a raven without the velocity bonus and with a bonus to say Nos range instead = same **** different day.
TBone, if you allow me to desagree, Caldari is a rail race first, and a missile race second. Trough the years, as missiles were becoming usable weapons, then overpowered weapons, and then balanced weapons, the caldari race has become identified with missiles. Initially, the raven (or the scorpion, not sure) was a railship.
quite right, original bonus on Raven (only and not level based) was Special: +30% TrackingSpeed bonus on Hybrid Weapons.
but back then the scorp had an 8/5/5 slot layout too.... and a shield boost bonus.....
|
Coran Ordus
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 19:36:00 -
[46]
I don't know why people obsess over the numbers so much. Two ships with the same slot layouts are not magically balanced because 8/5/6 == 8/5/6. Likewise, two ships are not suddenly unbalanced because one has more slots or turret/launcher hardpoints than the other.
There are a multitude of other ship bonuses and other intrinsic properties of the weapons and ships in question that affect the balance.
If you assume the ships are basically balanced, then there are only 7 slots because that's the way it is. They chose to limit the number of launchers instead of lowering the missile damage or reducing the bonuses or nerfing the drone bay or any of a million other tweaks. |
Eralus
|
Posted - 2007.08.29 20:22:00 -
[47]
If you want to complain about something...
Why is the Hyperion in pretty much every way better than the Rokh?
_____
Lifewire is a big, ugly, mean... carebear. |
Leighanne
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 00:54:00 -
[48]
Quote:
Yes, you do mention launchers.... after alot of other stuff....
but as an older player (yes this is an alt) at one time missles were support weapons.
once they came in piles of 10 rather than 100 with the same production cost....
Early on caldari were much more a railgun race. In the original launch missle ships were not meant to fight alone, they were fire support for other parts of a fleet, hence other high slots were meant for them to protect themselves with guns, not more launchers.
Ahhh .... Now thats the explaination I was looking for.
Thanks. I'm not new but I'm not old enough to remember those days either. Thanks for the info.
Quote:
I agree completely. I've never thought of it before, to be honest. But it makes sense. Ignoring some of the idiotic answers above, the Caldari missile boats which have a specific missile platform role should have the same number of launcher slots as the equivalent turret boat (for example, the Drake should have 8 launcher slots to match the Harbinger's 8 turret slots, the Raven should have 8 launcher slots to match the Apocalypse).
Yeah .. thats kinda why I thought it was a a bit odd - However as was pointed out earlier before Tier 3 BS's the Apoc was the only one with 8 turrets which makes the Raven with 6 still balanced for a Tier 2 BS.
As I mentioned earlier perhaps this is something they are thinking of for a future addition at some stage now that missiles have been 'balanced' ? I don't know and tbh I don't really care - all I was looking for was a good explaination which Fuk Mi has provided.
In regards to trying to fit 8 siege launchers yeah this would be damm hard - but imo would be balanced because you'd have to give up pretty much anything else that took PG to be able to fit them and then have CPU and PG upgrades in your lows as well. But not to worry this ain't gonna happen anyways.
Quote:
Ah, you see thats exactly my point!Drones have approximately the same DPS as a turret, so simple logic should dictate that you need the same number on a drone ship as you do a turret ship (8 drones).
Wrong - Drones are an alternative weapon system - You can still fit your 6 turrets to a Domi as well as 5 Ogre II's all at the same time. You cannot however fit 8 Launchers on a raven because it only has 6 slots. You could however fit 6 Launchers + 2 Turrets. (which I'm considering atm btw) Anyways the point is that according to your own admission 1 drone is roughly 1 turret - which theoretically gives the Domi 11 turrets. Tbh I think drones are balanced in such a way that 2.5 drones = approx 1 turret therefore giving the Domi a theoretical 8 turrets. But thats just my opinion and has no maths or anything to back it up and therefore should probably be ignored.
But no matter what you do to a Raven you end up with 6 Launchers and 2 turrets + 3 heavy drones giving it a theoretical 6 launchers and 3.5 turrets (assuming 1 turret is worth approx 2.5 drones)
Either way you look at it it still only has 6 launchers and launchers are its 'primary' weapon system unlike the Domi whose primary is drones + turrets. (Caldari weapon systems are primarily rails and launchers. Gallente are primarily Drones and Blasters) I guess you could make the argument that a raven is 'ment to be fitted' with 6 launchers and two rail guns. Tbh thats a very reasonable argument to make and I have no problem with that.
The whole idea behind this thread was that I'd like to know why Caldari are lacking an 8 launcher 0 drone bay ship? I think thats been answered already.
Next post to follow ..... too many replies to make.
|
Leighanne
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 01:16:00 -
[49]
Quote:
ZOMG! STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE WHINING ABOUT YOUR WHINGING!1!!
Hahahah ok you win this thread lol
Quote:
Caldari BS get less launcher hardpoints and smaller dronebays, so naturally they will always get lower DPS at the expense of the fact they can shooty shooty from whereever. With max skills a Siege Launcher II gets 56 dps, that's 10 less than a Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, yet they also can't fit as many launchers. So even if they could they would have less damage anyway. Especially considering their drone bays do not allow for effective use of larger drones that some turret ships do.
Sound pretty true to me ...
Again I'm not asking for a buff - but I think a valid point.
Perhaps the reason why Caldari DPS is 'lower' is because of huge Alpha?
<-- not a PVPer so I really can't comment.
Quote:
If a ship is supposed to be a droneboat i personally don't think it should also have the possibility to deal allot of damage with guns at the same time.
Agreed - to ber perfectly honest I'd love to see MUCH more vairation in ship layouts. Hell give the Domi 2 High slots and let it have a bonus to number of drones deployed to make up for the lack of High slots. Now that would be interesting.
Quote:
For the same reason i don't think a raven should have a whooping large dronebay, since it is a missile platform.
Yep that was my point - its a missile platform and until Fuk Mi pointed it out I failed to understand why it would only have 6 Launcher slots.
Quote:
Raven can fit 6 launchers, 2 turrets and 3 heavy drones. With decent skills (admittedly pretty tough to have great skills in all three, but thats a separate issue) thats the same number of equivalently powered weapons as the Domi.
Agreed 100% - no denying that with totally maxxed skills that would be accurate. My point was why if the other races have 8 turret ships do the Caldari not have an 8 Launcher ship?
My personal preference is that I probably wouldn't fit 8 launchers anyways need a Smartie for ****ing off drone users and a Neut for people who get too close. So thats my other two highs anyways.
Quote:
TBone, if you allow me to desagree, Caldari is a rail race first, and a missile race second. Trough the years, as missiles were becoming usable weapons, then overpowered weapons, and then balanced weapons, the caldari race has become identified with missiles. Initially, the raven (or the scorpion, not sure) was a railship.
Quote:
quite right, original bonus on Raven (only and not level based) was Special: +30% TrackingSpeed bonus on Hybrid Weapons.
See now thats stuff I didn't know! Thanks.
Quote:
If you want to complain about something...Why is the Hyperion in pretty much every way better than the Rokh?
For the millionth time ... not complaining - looking for answers to a simple question.
|
cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Curse Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.08.30 01:31:00 -
[50]
Turrets first, missiles and drones are supplements. Even with droneboats like the Dominix and missileboats like the Raven, turrets are part of their arsenal. They are the most extreme examples of supplementary damage methods (missiles and drones) providing the majority of the firepower, but nothing seems to trump the turrets. Turrets are still the champion for all races.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 :: [one page] |