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re: Turret Hardpoints vs Launcher Hardpoints

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Leighanne	Posted - 2007.08.29 02:47:00 - [1] Please keep in mind that the following is not a whine - tbh I will be content if nothing is changed or if something is changed - this is purely for my own curiosity nothing more. I've always wondered why the other races - ie: not Caldari - each have at least one if not more ships that can fit a full complement of turrets for their class. To keep things easy I will only be looking at BS class ships because well I don't really fly anything smaller. My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's were as the most launchers (caldari being largely a missile based race) can only ever fit 7 at most launchers on their BS (and this is a faction ship CNR) or 6 at the most on a standard BS. I'm going to hazard a guess and say that this would somehow overpower the Raven - but we're at a point after the missile nerf and where Caldari are generally regarded as having on the whole the lowest DPS ships and being the weakest at PVP. Surely if we were able to fit 8 launchers on our BS this would bring its missile firepower into line with the other races 8 turret (or the rokh for that matter) DPS? Or am I completely incorrect with this ? It the reason for only allowing 7 launcher slots max on caldari ships because 8 launchers would result in an unbalanced Alpha strike? or give specifically the Raven way too much firepower? If anyone knows the actual reason - perhaps some of th much older players - I'd love to know purely for my own interest if there is a reaon for this. Again keep in mind I am NOT asking for an 8 Launcher Caldari ship - I am NOT whining about anything - I am merely asking a question of interest to myself nothing more nothing less. - Leighanne
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.29 02:58:00 - [2] Cause 7 is a lucky number, and caldari ships need all the luck they can get Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking ~Liz Kali
Igualmentedos	Posted - 2007.08.29 03:11:00 - [3] Edited by: Igualmentedos on 29/08/2007 03:11:24 I would LOVE, for this to happen. I'm not sure why it hasn't already, but its quite obvious you seem to show much more intelligence than the designer of caldari.
Fuk Mi	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:41:00 - [4] Hmm.... I fit 8 BS sized turrets on my Rokh just fine..... Nothing wrong here....
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:45:00 - [5] yeah one word. ROKH
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Curse Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:47:00 - [6] Why would you need more than seven launchers? Why are you even using missiles?
Leighanne	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:50:00 - [7] Fuk Mi ... you must be visually impaired - I did specify launchers - If you still feel the need to troll I can recommend a good optometrist? Quote: into line with the other races 8 turret (or the rokh for that matter) DPS? See I recognised the Rokh can fit 8 turrets - but 8 Launchers is a different matter. I think I've already listed the probably reasons for not letting us have 8 launchers. Are they accurate sounding? THIS IS NOT A WHINE THIS IS FOR MY OWN INTEREST ONLY.
Banana Torres The Green Banana Corporation	Posted - 2007.08.29 11:55:00 - [8] Originally by: cal nereus Why would you need more than seven launchers? Why are you even using missiles? Cause then I don't have to worry about tracking or any of the other stuffs that makes my brain hurt when I use guns. And I can use any damage type I like. It would be cool if the Raven could fit 8 launchers, you could really canter through level 4 missions and earn gazillions of risk free ISK. Gawd, you can almost see the whining piwats heads exploding at the thought.
Stakhanov Katana's Edge	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:02:00 - [9] Rage torps do very respectable damage I think... If the Raven were made more effective in PvP with extra launcher hardpoints , it would be the only BS ever used in PvE. Increasing launcher hardpoints to match turret hardpoints would be arbitrary. It's best to not try to fix what isn't broke. The Raven is also one of the few BS that can switch its damage type without affecting the DPS or range. It's a pretty powerful feature when you think about it. Originally by: Cipher7 If you manage to get baited, what's your skill, being a good victim?
Xantia Gedur House of Gedur	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:04:00 - [10] Originally by: Leighanne My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's were as the most launchers (caldari being largely a missile based race) can only ever fit 7 at most launchers on their BS (and this is a faction ship CNR) or 6 at the most on a standard BS. Because the raven was designed when missiles used to be uber. Since then missiles have been ~~nerfed~~ 'balanced' to hell. I think there needs to be a review of launcher vs turret dps because a lot has changed and i'm sure any caldari missile user esp raven pilot will tell you that their dps even with max skills is poor compared to those that use turrents. But the devs dont fly caldari or minmatar much less use missiles outside of missions so for this to get attention you will have to whine for about 8 months.
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:12:00 - [11] And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time! Oh wait, because they're a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT WEAPON SYSTEM, thats it. --------
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:19:00 - [12] Up until the Rohk, Hyperion and Maelstrom only the Amarr had a battleship which would fit eight turrets, seen in that light and compared to the Tempest's 6 turrets the Raven is perfectly sensible. As it is the Tempest (6 Turrets), Megathron (7 Turrets) and the Apocolypse (8 Turrets) which the Raven should be compared to it remains reasonable. -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Foppemoa Caldari Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:21:00 - [13] on a sidenote I think it was planned for the Drake to use 8 launcher, considering that the model itself looks like it has 8 launcher-thingies on each side. But being a caldari missile user I would really love to have 8 launchers on my CNR atleast ^_^ Sadly, i doubt that this will ever happen though.
Leighanne	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:37:00 - [14] Quote: Rage torps do very respectable damage I think... Yes I think they do quite respectable dmg as well. Quote: If the Raven were made more effective in PvP with extra launcher hardpoints , it would be the only BS ever used in PvE. Now thats a good reason. Quote: Increasing launcher hardpoints to match turret hardpoints would be arbitrary. It's best to not try to fix what isn't broke. Since when was I ever trying to fix anything? I don't think its broken I don't think it needs fixing ... I was simply curious nothing more. Quote: It's a pretty powerful feature when you think about it. Yeah I suppose so. Quote: Because the raven was designed when missiles used to be uber. Since then missiles have been nerfed 'balanced' to hell. Yes this is probably correct - but again I am not asking for a balance or a change or a nerf. This is probably the reason why no Caldari ships have more then 7 Launchers max - because back in the day it would have been super overpowered. Whether it is now or not is not what this thread is for. Quote: And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time! Duh because only Carriers and MS can launch more then 5 at a time. Has nothing to do with being a different weapon system - don't be a moron again. Quote: Up until the Rohk, Hyperion and Maelstrom only the Amarr had a battleship which would fit eight turrets, seen in that light and compared to the Tempest's 6 turrets the Raven is perfectly sensible. As it is the Tempest (6 Turrets), Megathron (7 Turrets) and the Apocolypse (8 Turrets) which the Raven should be compared to it remains reasonable. True - in that case perhaps an 8 Launcher Caldari ship is somewhere in the future? Thanks for the input those of you who actually get the point of this thread. To those who still don't understand even after me saying it twice and once in caps. THIS IS NOT A WHINE - THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR 8 LAUNCHERS - I DON'T WANT ANYTHING CHANGED - I DON'T WANT A NERF OR A BUFF - I WANT EVERYTHING THATS IN GAME TO STAY JUST THE WAY IT IS - THIS IS FOR MY OWN CURIOSITY ONLY NOTHING MORE. I think my curiosity has been satisfied - but if people keep posting I'll keep replying.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Leighanne True - in that case perhaps an 8 Launcher Caldari ship is somewhere in the future? There is one its called a state issue raven, getting one however will prove to be somewhat difficult ^^ --------- Liberty Rogues Website
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Leighanne Quote: And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time! Duh because only Carriers and MS can launch more then 5 at a time. Has nothing to do with being a different weapon system - don't be a moron again. I think you miss my point. Missiles are no more a direct analogue of turrets than drones are. Assuming that it is the right answer to have an exact 1 for 1 ratio of turrets and missiles is making the assumption that 1 missile launcher = exactly 1 turret, or that a turret ship with 8 turrets is exactly as good as a missile ship with 8 launchers. Thats a matter of such supreme complexity I wouldn't even want to attempt to figure it out (and it seems you haven't tried any harder, either). There are so many differences between turrets and missiles that figuring out a balance is never going to be as simple ass matching DPS. Missiles have many advantages over turrets (and turrets have some advantages over missiles too)- maybe the increased DPS from an 8 slot turret ship is necessary to keep the two in check. Or maybe not. But lets see the numbers. Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced. --------
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 12:59:00 - [17] Originally by: Leighanne Quote: And why can't my drone ship launch 8 drones at a time! Duh because only Carriers and MS can launch more then 5 at a time. Has nothing to do with being a different weapon system - don't be a moron again. I think you miss my point. Missiles are no more a direct analogue of turrets than drones are. Assuming that it is the right answer to have an exact 1 for 1 ratio of turrets and missiles is making the assumption that 1 missile launcher = exactly 1 turret, or that a turret ship with 8 turrets is exactly as good as a missile ship with 8 launchers. Thats a matter of such supreme complexity I wouldn't even want to attempt to figure it out (and it seems you haven't tried any harder, either). There are so many differences between turrets and missiles that figuring out a balance is never going to be as simple ass matching DPS. Missiles have many advantages over turrets (and turrets have some advantages over missiles too)- maybe the increased DPS from an 8 slot turret ship is necessary to keep the two in check. Or maybe not. But lets see the numbers. Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced. --------
Fuk Mi	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:06:00 - [18] Originally by: Leighanne I've always wondered why the other races - ie: not Caldari - each have at least one if not more ships that can fit a full complement of turrets for their class. To keep things easy I will only be looking at BS class ships because well I don't really fly anything smaller. My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's If anyone knows the actual reason - perhaps some of th much older players - I'd love to know purely for my own interest if there is a reaon for this. - Leighanne
Fuk Mi	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:06:00 - [19] Edited by: Fuk Mi on 29/08/2007 13:10:06 Originally by: Leighanne I've always wondered why the other races - ie: not Caldari - each have at least one if not more ships that can fit a full complement of turrets for their class. To keep things easy I will only be looking at BS class ships because well I don't really fly anything smaller. My question is why do all the other races get the ability (if they make sacrifices) to fit 8 BS class turrets on at least one of their BS's If anyone knows the actual reason - perhaps some of th much older players - I'd love to know purely for my own interest if there is a reaon for this. - Leighanne Yes, you do mention launchers.... after alot of other stuff.... but as an older player (yes this is an alt) at one time missles were support weapons. once they came in piles of 10 rather than 100 with the same production cost.... Early on caldari were much more a railgun race. In the original launch missle ships were not meant to fight alone, they were fire support for other parts of a fleet, hence other high slots were meant for them to protect themselves with guns, not more launchers.
Asestorian Minmatar Domination.	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:08:00 - [20] The reason there are turret ships with 8 turret hardpoints, but only one missile ship with 8 missile hardpoints (state raven) is because they don't need to be the same. They are different weapon systems, and they do different things. Weapon systems in EVE are designed to be different. They all operate in different ways, and so you don't need extra hardpoints just because turret ships have them. Otherwise it would simply be case of "everything is the same except for the pretty colours". And to be honest, that sucks. --- ---
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:19:00 - [21] Edited by: Dez Affinity on 29/08/2007 13:22:27 Originally by: Patch86 Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced. Tell that to Ogre IIs. 1 Ogre II gets 63 DPS with max skills. 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void gets 66 DPS. 1 drone DOES = 1 turret, or there about. They work the same too, except one takes cap and one doesn't. One can get jammed the other can't. They are very similar. _______________
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:21:00 - [22] Originally by: Dez Affinity Originally by: Patch86 Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced. Tell that to Ogre IIs. 1 Ogre II gets 63 DPS with max skills. 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void gets 66 DPS. 1 drone DOES = 1 turret, or there about. "Damage wise they're very similar..." Read what you're quoting, dude --------
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Dez Affinity Originally by: Patch86 Similarly, 1 drone does not = 1 turret. Damage wise they're very similar, but the two systems are so completely different that a 1 for 1 comparison is pointless. The fact that my Dominix can only launch 5 of it's primary weapons is actually necessary for it to stay balanced. Tell that to Ogre IIs. 1 Ogre II gets 63 DPS with max skills. 1 Neutron Blaster Cannon II with Void gets 66 DPS. 1 drone DOES = 1 turret, or there about. "Damage wise they're very similar..." Read what you're quoting, dude I did but I clicked reply before I was finished, then when I tried to edit.. it doesn't exist lmao. Anyway, they are very similar in more than just damage. If anything drones are at an advantage. They don't run out of cap, they don't get jammed, they may be destroyable but they are also recallable. Other than that it works pretty much the same you click engage and the damage starts hitting. _______________
Foppemoa Caldari Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:26:00 - [24] Also, a Domi for example can have 6 turrets and 5 heavy drones at the same time. that's allot of pew pew
J'Mkarr Soban Amarr Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:27:00 - [25] I agree completely. I've never thought of it before, to be honest. But it makes sense. Ignoring some of the idiotic answers above, the Caldari missile boats which have a specific missile platform role should have the same number of launcher slots as the equivalent turret boat (for example, the Drake should have 8 launcher slots to match the Harbinger's 8 turret slots, the Raven should have 8 launcher slots to match the Apocalypse). But on the same hand, not every race follows the same rules. No other race has an ECM ship, for example. But role-specific ships should match other role-specific ships (Raven is the only BS class missile boat, so it should be comparable to a BS class turret boat, i.e. 8 slots). It's certainly hard enough to fit it with 6 Siege Launchers though. ----------------------------- "Oh, we're sorry, you had the 'NakedAmarrChicks' bit flagged in your account somehow." "Wait, why was there even a flag for that to begin with?" "..."
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:29:00 - [26] Ah, you see thats exactly my point! Drones have approximately the same DPS as a turret, so simple logic should dictate that you need the same number on a drone ship as you do a turret ship (8 drones). But drones have all sorts of other advantages over turrets. Like you say, capless, E-War immune, no ammo, no optimum range, etc. They have some disavantages too (destroyable, delayed alpha, and so forth). So, 5 drones is more than enough. Arguing that you need 8 is pointless, because they're not the same. A Dominix is plenty effective enough with 5 Ogres, and compares favourably with a Hyperion with 8 turrets. --------
Patch86 Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:31:00 - [27] Originally by: Foppemoa Also, a Domi for example can have 6 turrets and 5 heavy drones at the same time. that's allot of pew pew And a Hyperion can have 8 turrets and 4 heavy drones. Whats your point? --------
PaddyPaddy Nihildarnik Gallente Rampage Eternal Ka-Tet	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:32:00 - [28] Originally by: Leighanne THIS IS NOT A WHINE - THIS IS NOT A REQUEST FOR 8 LAUNCHERS - I DON'T WANT ANYTHING CHANGED - I DON'T WANT A NERF OR A BUFF - I WANT EVERYTHING THATS IN GAME TO STAY JUST THE WAY IT IS - THIS IS FOR MY OWN CURIOSITY ONLY NOTHING MORE. ZOMG! STOP WHINING ABOUT PEOPLE WHINING ABOUT YOUR WHINGING!1!! Peace WithinSo if the theory of relativity is true, shouldn't i arrive at my destination before i warped in the first place? Neon GhostYou do, but this is compensated for by lag
Dez Affinity Ore Mongers R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Patch86 Ah, you see thats exactly my point! Drones have approximately the same DPS as a turret, so simple logic should dictate that you need the same number on a drone ship as you do a turret ship (8 drones). But drones have all sorts of other advantages over turrets. Like you say, capless, E-War immune, no ammo, no optimum range, etc. They have some disavantages too (destroyable, delayed alpha, and so forth). So, 5 drones is more than enough. Arguing that you need 8 is pointless, because they're not the same. A Dominix is plenty effective enough with 5 Ogres, and compares favourably with a Hyperion with 8 turrets. I'm gonna hop on the 'buff Caldari' bandwagon again :P Caldari BS get less launcher hardpoints and smaller dronebays, so naturally they will always get lower DPS at the expense of the fact they can shooty shooty from whereever. With max skills a Siege Launcher II gets 56 dps, that's 10 less than a Neutron Blaster Cannon II with max skills, yet they also can't fit as many launchers. So even if they could they would have less damage anyway. Especially considering their drone bays do not allow for effective use of larger drones that some turret ships do. BUUF TEH CALDARIEE PL0X _______________
Foppemoa Caldari Royal Swedish Capsulers Inc.	Posted - 2007.08.29 13:43:00 - [30] Originally by: Patch86 Originally by: Foppemoa Also, a Domi for example can have 6 turrets and 5 heavy drones at the same time. that's allot of pew pew And a Hyperion can have 8 turrets and 4 heavy drones. Whats your point? It was more to compare it to the Raven which is also locked to the whole max 6 highslot weapon limit. My point was that a Domi can chuck out more painÖ then the Raven. If a ship is supposed to be a droneboat i personally don't think it should also have the possibility to deal allot of damage with guns at the same time. For the same reason i don't think a raven should have a whooping large dronebay, since it is a missile platform. The Domi is basically shooting with 6 neuts and at the same time having another 5 neuts orbiting it. (btw: nothing bad about the domi alone, it's just an example)

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