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Why Cyno Jammers need to go, or, Why POS guns need to be renerfed.

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Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:35:00 - [1] Disclaimer 1: We lose a couple tens of fleet BS every time we have to take down the Cyno Jammer in BKG with battleships, due to the sheer pwnage-factor of medium artillery batteries. Disclaimer 2: When bringing a huge fleet to take out the Cyno Jammer, we ended up with a crashed node and a turkeyshoot cap-rape-fest that we won. With that out of the way.... These two features force blobbing to a huge extent. Knowing that many of your battleships will die taking out a cyno jammer at a well defended POS, you must bring more. Knowing that you have to bring many, your enemy must bring many in order to stop them from getting capitals in. Pre-patch, when the turrets had huge locktimes, particularly against BS and smaller, it wasn't so hard to take out the cyno jammer. You could even have a decent fight at an enemy POS. Before our enemies got the sov level required to put up cyno jammers, such as when we kicked ** out of Tenal, I actually found the fleet stuff to be fun.** I didn't hesitate before logging in, and I looked forward to doing it. We got fleet fights constantly, and not with such huge numbers that lag made it unplayable. If the enemy deployed caps, we could try to match them straight up, no megablob required. It was fun. With the addition of cyno jammers, things got a bit worse. It was still possible to get a good fight in, though, you just had to deal with one over-arching objective, the destruction of the cyno-jammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it was quite hard to deal with when there were enemy motherships and carriers in system, deploying hundreds of fighter drones. And, with the inability to siege up a place to plant a POS of your own, that means you have no safe haven to lose the fighters at. A good thing for defenders, a bad thing for interesting game play. Then, the other shoe fell. Lock times got 'fixed'. Now, in combination with having to take down cyno jammers with a subcapital fleet, under fire from a capital fleet, you have to handle the losses inflicted by a deadly combination of long range warp disruptors, and medium artilleries, sometimes faction, fitted up with faction ammo, that nearly insta-pop even a double plated, DCUed fleet BS. It's not fun. This new system combines the very worst of defensibility (inability to bring in friendly caps) with the very worst of the pre-POS change system (hostile deathstars that are all-powerful). It should be changed. Keep in mind, that these changes, even before the signature resolution changes, make it incredibly difficult to siege a system, and that this has helped us losslessly defend the S-EVIQ system earlier, as well. If our enemies want to play the tired "you only want this so you can win" argument, you'd best be prepared to deal with it when attacking our station systems, too. So, a brief rundown of the points: - It's not fun. - It requires blobbage, up to node-death levels. - It is far too slow to take a system, if both sides are competent and nearly evenly matched. I think that's about it.
Venzon 2003 Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:53:00 - [2] Edited by: Venzon 2003 on 31/08/2007 09:58:11 yes, devs pls remove cyno jammers for today couse Razor want to claim BKG :)
Bakurra Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:58:00 - [3] Run down; We took loses and failed to do anything because POS'es are overpowered and Cyno jammers are a broken item. correct?
QuantumX Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:59:00 - [4] Personally i'l like the see ECM based modules that will disrupt a POS from an Electronic point of view, to add more Strategy. Imagine something along the lines of the following: Fleet gets into a system that have a POS with Cyno Jammer, they are outnumbered, they deploy a POS type module that perhaps needs a Gravity well of a Sun to activate, the offensive fleet gets the module into the system and then activates it, it take perhaps 30 minutes to 1 hour for the module to activate, when it does it pulses shutting down the POS'es electronics for 15 minutes or so. Giving time to jump in a capital fleet. These Siege modules could only be perhaps deployed from covert ops recons or something similar, cost quite a bit, and therefore the offense have to defend it while it activates. Once activated the module is spent and will explode after the 30 minutes is up. This is just an idea to add more strategy to the POS system of defense and attack, any static defense should be vulnerable to Siege based attack, a small set of siege deployable modules that have different short lasting affects would make it far for a strategic game to play. Its just an idea, but i totally agree with the OP, the defense of homes systems for various alliances is too strong and encourages the Blob.. Its needs to not be nerfed but have a viable counter attack system in place. Before Cyno Jammer, Capitals were the counter attack system, now they cannot be used without resorting to blobbing, and crap gameplay. More Strategy options for attackers and defenders and less blob... ========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
Lord Pelivar	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:02:00 - [5] cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? CYNO jammer. As in, "it jams the creation cynos". You can't cyno in anything of your own. _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained
Angelik'a	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? you win mate - you win... the golden award for stupidity! lmao Cyno jammer jams cynos in a system - so you see the problem with having an active cyno jammer in a system and "just cyno a couple dreads"?
Lord Pelivar	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? CYNO jammer. As in, "it jams the creation cynos". You can't cyno in anything of your own. oh so a cyno jammer effects a whole system ? that seems a bit excessive ? i can understand a AOE around the POS but you know what kind of energy it would take to send out a energy wave that strong across a whole system ? thats just dumb
Lord Pelivar	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Angelik'a Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? you win mate - you win... sorry i dont do pos warfare I dont know just didnt seem likely there was a item that could lock down a whole system the golden award for stupidity! lmao Cyno jammer jams cynos in a system - so you see the problem with having an active cyno jammer in a system and "just cyno a couple dreads"?
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:11:00 - [10] Edited by: Central Scrutinizer on 31/08/2007 10:12:05 Originally by: Bakurra Run down; We took loses and failed to do anything because POS'es are overpowered and Cyno jammers are a broken item. correct? If you want to be a lame smacktard, try this one one: We crashed the node, then raped 10 of your unsupported capital ships, and I stil want it changed. It makes so much more sense that way, doesn't it? I didn't make this thread to deal with your alt posts. I made this because, like everyone there, I feel that thw Wednesday night op was not fun, and that current game mechanics will make it an often-recurring-not-fun event. So cut it with the smack, and deal with the points at hand, and post with your main.
Mr Drumbass	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:17:00 - [11] i think one of the good reply is : stop wasting you'r time on the cyno jammer .... put it down 1 times, bring as many draed/ capital as possible after the end of the initial reinforced, order capital to log from a safe, (then can fit a cloack near a carrier) next times they just log, gather fuel who can come from gates ... and voila no need to attack each time the cyno jammer ..
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:19:00 - [12] And peeps call me maniac when i spend 6h planting spys saying that infiltration wins wars . Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
QuantumX Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:29:00 - [13] WoW.. 7 posts of rubbish to the op's thread rather then constructive comments, tell you what i have noticed a major decline in quality of posting to these forums over the last few years.. Sad really i always though of EvE as a more mature players game. ========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:31:00 - [14] you won ? we are all still sat happy in BKG
Partridge CLERICS Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:52:00 - [15] Cry baby,cry :) yes and my personal proposition to DevTeam: Swedish beer need to be nerfed... 2.8% is too low... Rate of Fire is to high and it waste more ammo than autocannons... and a conclusion... I have to dock to often...
Venzon 2003 Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:55:00 - [16] damm, bad news for razor... we started getting back our capitals already
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:55:00 - [17] I havn't had any pos warfare experience, i did lose a logistic ship it a pos once while it was under siege, but thats it . So flame away my suggestion. At the moment, a pos i just a large shield fueled and maintained from the inside. So only real possibility to take it down, is an frontal assault (taking down the fuel ships seems not a possibilibty or just not used?). What I would suggest is to move fuel collectors and power plants outside the actual POS. At a planet/moon within the same system, or some gas cloud in the middle of nowhere, so the attackers have to probe these nodes first. But taking the nodes will offline some of the POS automatic defences. So the POS guns will no longer shoot by them selves and will require a player to operate them. Could also weaken the POS shields by either total HP or resists, if minimum number of power plants is not met. Say a large tower requires 10 power plants and the attacking forces find 5 of them, then 50% of the defending guns will be ofline when they attack the POS and the shiled will be at 50% also (might be some shield regen instead of actual HP). These power plants will need defence and can therefor mount a small amount of guns and have a small amount of HP. A force of 5-10 BS should be able to take down a power plant with relative ease, but still have enough trouble for the defending forces to mount a counter attack. Their main defence is their ability to remain hidden and undetected. To sum up, move the sustaining buildings out of the POS but make them hard to find.
Partridge CLERICS Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Central Scrutinizer Edited by: Central Scrutinizer on 31/08/2007 10:12:05 Originally by: Bakurra Run down; We took loses and failed to do anything because POS'es are overpowered and Cyno jammers are a broken item. correct? If you want to be a lame smacktard, try this one one: We crashed the node, then raped 10 of your unsupported capital ships, and I stil want it changed. It makes so much more sense that way, doesn't it? I didn't make this thread to deal with your alt posts. I made this because, like everyone there, I feel that thw Wednesday night op was not fun, and that current game mechanics will make it an often-recurring-not-fun event. So cut it with the smack, and deal with the points at hand, and post with your main. Your counting those capitals...? I'm not sorry there's no point being happy about the battle where lag is about 2-3 minutes... those capitals haven't even propably occassion to turn on modules... It tooks me 5 minutes to kill Cov Ops... 3 minutes locking and 2 minutes for activating guns... and 4sec to blow him... After waring on LX gate I had 20min desync... I was asking my m8s after warp out "I'm I alive? Yep u r! I'm bummping U atm" and after 20min game loaded proper Grid :) So pls don't cry it's just a game... for me it was funny and don't be lame post with your mains pls :P
Snaut Minmatar Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:09:00 - [19] you're whining about the lag related losses last night? ... look forward for the massacre expected tonight YARRR !!!!
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Venzon 2003 damm, bad news for razor... we started getting back our capitals already Wow, you already started gettingback the only carrier you lost in BKG?! You guys are intense! Originally by: Partridge CLERICS Cry baby,cry :) yes and my personal proposition to DevTeam: Swedish beer need to be nerfed... 2.8% is too low... Rate of Fire is to high and it waste more ammo than autocannons... and a conclusion... I have to dock to often... Seriously, you Fallen Souls guys are about 400% cooler in your own minds than other people think of you. You're the laughing stock of Eve, do you realize? Your own allies laugh at you. You are bad in small gangs. You are awful in fleets. You've lost every single capital fight you have ever been involved in where you provide the majority of the capital ships. You bring blasterthrons to fleet battles. You doubletank your carriers. I seriously doubt you have ever had positive efficiency against any other alliance. When we attack your NPCers, they call for help. And you respond by warping in other NPCers. You haven't ever actually taken a system up north by a fight, you've only inherited them, and you're only allowed to keep them because Branch is between you and us, and Triumvirate doesn't seem interested in you. So far, you've been pretty much the biggest purveyors of smacktalk on this thread, and many others relating to the BKG fight, and yet, you have the most apalling PVP record of any current Northern space-holding alliance. Everyone knows it except, seemingly, you. If you want to continue this smackfest, bring it on, but be prepared to deal with facing the reality of your PVP accomplishments and failures. If not, hopefully your CEOs can rein you in. I made this topic, because I thought it was more fun when POSes were neutered. It gave subcapital pilots something fun to do. They've now not merely been relegated to the pre-change boredom of babysitting capitals. That would be superior to what it's become. Now, battleships are not only mere backup to the capital fleet in a POS war, they first have to lay down on the cruicible of the directed-fire, cyno-jamming POS. Mark my words, when the tide changes, if it does, and M.Pire/Fatal get to deal with killing a cyno-jammer on a defended, targetting POS, we won't see Fallen Souls smacktalking. We'll see them making the same threads we see now.
Bananna Lips Amarr Incorporated Inc LTD	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:16:00 - [21] Originally by: QuantumX WoW.. 7 posts of rubbish to the op's thread rather then constructive comments, tell you what i have noticed a major decline in quality of posting to these forums over the last few years.. Sad really i always though of EvE as a more mature players game. Unfortunatly your absolutly right Look my name is Bananna Lips and im so good!null
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:16:00 - [22] Originally by: QuantumX WoW.. 7 posts of rubbish to the op's thread rather then constructive comments, tell you what i have noticed a major decline in quality of posting to these forums over the last few years.. Sad really i always though of EvE as a more mature players game. /signed CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:28:00 - [23] How are you engaging the POSes? When we took down a number of POS, we started at 155 km distance and disabled all the warp disruption batteries, and only after that did we move in closer to take out the guns, then the cynojammer and then the POS. Are you going in close right away? Or are the POS guns instapopping BS? ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:37:00 - [24] Shoot the medium guns first... They have 1/20th the HP of the cyno jammer. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:43:00 - [25] Edited by: LadyShu on 31/08/2007 11:44:06 i suggest a huge and super expensive ECM bomb for stealth bombers who can render a pos for a VERY short time useless (jam weapon systems). And lets say the POS can only be hit 3 times with it before the weapons adjust and are invulnerable for this sort of attack for the rest of day ;) so you can BUY you a little timeframe todo some harm to outside anchored items like cynojammers. ... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Boonaki Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:03:00 - [26] So the defender looses 2 bil+ if you win in POS gear, you lose a 100 fleet battleships that should be insured with named or tech 1 loot, you lose 1 bil. Sounds fair to me. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Malachon Draco How are you engaging the POSes? When we took down a number of POS, we started at 155 km distance and disabled all the warp disruption batteries, and only after that did we move in closer to take out the guns, then the cynojammer and then the POS. Are you going in close right away? Or are the POS guns instapopping BS? Even with the warp disruptor down, 8 medium artilleries will nearly instapop said doubleplated BS. M.Pire has been smart, and their turrets are all domination, I'm sure that helps, but nothing that isn't overcome with just one more guy targetting. Anyways, it's not really a matter of killing the disruption array. It's the lock time of the guns, which allows rather quick cycling from one target to the next.
Koryvarn Amarr Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:07:00 - [28] I love how Fallen Souls member states it took him 20 mins to load the grid. And then says "cyno jammers and the blob related lag they create is fine". As for the Cyno jammer issue - it's just ********. What they could do, is just reduce the hp by 1000% but allow multiplce cyno jammers in a system. They'd still prevent random capitals entering unless there was a support fleet of BS in the system allowing them entry - the way it should be.
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Boonaki So the defender looses 2 bil+ if you win in POS gear, you lose a 100 fleet battleships that should be insured with named or tech 1 loot, you lose 1 bil. Sounds fair to me. Please invade us.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:16:00 - [30] drones are neat for those annoying guns, if you have enough range on drone control ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence

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