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Why Cyno Jammers need to go, or, Why POS guns need to be renerfed.

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Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:35:00 - [1] Disclaimer 1: We lose a couple tens of fleet BS every time we have to take down the Cyno Jammer in BKG with battleships, due to the sheer pwnage-factor of medium artillery batteries. Disclaimer 2: When bringing a huge fleet to take out the Cyno Jammer, we ended up with a crashed node and a turkeyshoot cap-rape-fest that we won. With that out of the way.... These two features force blobbing to a huge extent. Knowing that many of your battleships will die taking out a cyno jammer at a well defended POS, you must bring more. Knowing that you have to bring many, your enemy must bring many in order to stop them from getting capitals in. Pre-patch, when the turrets had huge locktimes, particularly against BS and smaller, it wasn't so hard to take out the cyno jammer. You could even have a decent fight at an enemy POS. Before our enemies got the sov level required to put up cyno jammers, such as when we kicked ** out of Tenal, I actually found the fleet stuff to be fun.** I didn't hesitate before logging in, and I looked forward to doing it. We got fleet fights constantly, and not with such huge numbers that lag made it unplayable. If the enemy deployed caps, we could try to match them straight up, no megablob required. It was fun. With the addition of cyno jammers, things got a bit worse. It was still possible to get a good fight in, though, you just had to deal with one over-arching objective, the destruction of the cyno-jammer. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it was quite hard to deal with when there were enemy motherships and carriers in system, deploying hundreds of fighter drones. And, with the inability to siege up a place to plant a POS of your own, that means you have no safe haven to lose the fighters at. A good thing for defenders, a bad thing for interesting game play. Then, the other shoe fell. Lock times got 'fixed'. Now, in combination with having to take down cyno jammers with a subcapital fleet, under fire from a capital fleet, you have to handle the losses inflicted by a deadly combination of long range warp disruptors, and medium artilleries, sometimes faction, fitted up with faction ammo, that nearly insta-pop even a double plated, DCUed fleet BS. It's not fun. This new system combines the very worst of defensibility (inability to bring in friendly caps) with the very worst of the pre-POS change system (hostile deathstars that are all-powerful). It should be changed. Keep in mind, that these changes, even before the signature resolution changes, make it incredibly difficult to siege a system, and that this has helped us losslessly defend the S-EVIQ system earlier, as well. If our enemies want to play the tired "you only want this so you can win" argument, you'd best be prepared to deal with it when attacking our station systems, too. So, a brief rundown of the points: - It's not fun. - It requires blobbage, up to node-death levels. - It is far too slow to take a system, if both sides are competent and nearly evenly matched. I think that's about it.
Venzon 2003 Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:53:00 - [2] Edited by: Venzon 2003 on 31/08/2007 09:58:11 yes, devs pls remove cyno jammers for today couse Razor want to claim BKG :)
Bakurra Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:58:00 - [3] Run down; We took loses and failed to do anything because POS'es are overpowered and Cyno jammers are a broken item. correct?
QuantumX Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.31 09:59:00 - [4] Personally i'l like the see ECM based modules that will disrupt a POS from an Electronic point of view, to add more Strategy. Imagine something along the lines of the following: Fleet gets into a system that have a POS with Cyno Jammer, they are outnumbered, they deploy a POS type module that perhaps needs a Gravity well of a Sun to activate, the offensive fleet gets the module into the system and then activates it, it take perhaps 30 minutes to 1 hour for the module to activate, when it does it pulses shutting down the POS'es electronics for 15 minutes or so. Giving time to jump in a capital fleet. These Siege modules could only be perhaps deployed from covert ops recons or something similar, cost quite a bit, and therefore the offense have to defend it while it activates. Once activated the module is spent and will explode after the 30 minutes is up. This is just an idea to add more strategy to the POS system of defense and attack, any static defense should be vulnerable to Siege based attack, a small set of siege deployable modules that have different short lasting affects would make it far for a strategic game to play. Its just an idea, but i totally agree with the OP, the defense of homes systems for various alliances is too strong and encourages the Blob.. Its needs to not be nerfed but have a viable counter attack system in place. Before Cyno Jammer, Capitals were the counter attack system, now they cannot be used without resorting to blobbing, and crap gameplay. More Strategy options for attackers and defenders and less blob... ========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
Lord Pelivar	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:02:00 - [5] cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? CYNO jammer. As in, "it jams the creation cynos". You can't cyno in anything of your own. _ Complaint vs whine \| Char creation guide \| Stacknerfs explained
Angelik'a	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:07:00 - [7] Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? you win mate - you win... the golden award for stupidity! lmao Cyno jammer jams cynos in a system - so you see the problem with having an active cyno jammer in a system and "just cyno a couple dreads"?
Lord Pelivar	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:08:00 - [8] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? CYNO jammer. As in, "it jams the creation cynos". You can't cyno in anything of your own. oh so a cyno jammer effects a whole system ? that seems a bit excessive ? i can understand a AOE around the POS but you know what kind of energy it would take to send out a energy wave that strong across a whole system ? thats just dumb
Lord Pelivar	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:09:00 - [9] Originally by: Angelik'a Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? you win mate - you win... sorry i dont do pos warfare I dont know just didnt seem likely there was a item that could lock down a whole system the golden award for stupidity! lmao Cyno jammer jams cynos in a system - so you see the problem with having an active cyno jammer in a system and "just cyno a couple dreads"?
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:11:00 - [10] Edited by: Central Scrutinizer on 31/08/2007 10:12:05 Originally by: Bakurra Run down; We took loses and failed to do anything because POS'es are overpowered and Cyno jammers are a broken item. correct? If you want to be a lame smacktard, try this one one: We crashed the node, then raped 10 of your unsupported capital ships, and I stil want it changed. It makes so much more sense that way, doesn't it? I didn't make this thread to deal with your alt posts. I made this because, like everyone there, I feel that thw Wednesday night op was not fun, and that current game mechanics will make it an often-recurring-not-fun event. So cut it with the smack, and deal with the points at hand, and post with your main.
Mr Drumbass	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:17:00 - [11] i think one of the good reply is : stop wasting you'r time on the cyno jammer .... put it down 1 times, bring as many draed/ capital as possible after the end of the initial reinforced, order capital to log from a safe, (then can fit a cloack near a carrier) next times they just log, gather fuel who can come from gates ... and voila no need to attack each time the cyno jammer ..
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:19:00 - [12] And peeps call me maniac when i spend 6h planting spys saying that infiltration wins wars . Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
QuantumX Minmatar Sicarri Covenant	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:29:00 - [13] WoW.. 7 posts of rubbish to the op's thread rather then constructive comments, tell you what i have noticed a major decline in quality of posting to these forums over the last few years.. Sad really i always though of EvE as a more mature players game. ========================== I came i saw i got blown up!
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:31:00 - [14] you won ? we are all still sat happy in BKG
Partridge CLERICS Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:52:00 - [15] Cry baby,cry :) yes and my personal proposition to DevTeam: Swedish beer need to be nerfed... 2.8% is too low... Rate of Fire is to high and it waste more ammo than autocannons... and a conclusion... I have to dock to often...
Venzon 2003 Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:55:00 - [16] damm, bad news for razor... we started getting back our capitals already
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:55:00 - [17] I havn't had any pos warfare experience, i did lose a logistic ship it a pos once while it was under siege, but thats it . So flame away my suggestion. At the moment, a pos i just a large shield fueled and maintained from the inside. So only real possibility to take it down, is an frontal assault (taking down the fuel ships seems not a possibilibty or just not used?). What I would suggest is to move fuel collectors and power plants outside the actual POS. At a planet/moon within the same system, or some gas cloud in the middle of nowhere, so the attackers have to probe these nodes first. But taking the nodes will offline some of the POS automatic defences. So the POS guns will no longer shoot by them selves and will require a player to operate them. Could also weaken the POS shields by either total HP or resists, if minimum number of power plants is not met. Say a large tower requires 10 power plants and the attacking forces find 5 of them, then 50% of the defending guns will be ofline when they attack the POS and the shiled will be at 50% also (might be some shield regen instead of actual HP). These power plants will need defence and can therefor mount a small amount of guns and have a small amount of HP. A force of 5-10 BS should be able to take down a power plant with relative ease, but still have enough trouble for the defending forces to mount a counter attack. Their main defence is their ability to remain hidden and undetected. To sum up, move the sustaining buildings out of the POS but make them hard to find.
Partridge CLERICS Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 10:59:00 - [18] Originally by: Central Scrutinizer Edited by: Central Scrutinizer on 31/08/2007 10:12:05 Originally by: Bakurra Run down; We took loses and failed to do anything because POS'es are overpowered and Cyno jammers are a broken item. correct? If you want to be a lame smacktard, try this one one: We crashed the node, then raped 10 of your unsupported capital ships, and I stil want it changed. It makes so much more sense that way, doesn't it? I didn't make this thread to deal with your alt posts. I made this because, like everyone there, I feel that thw Wednesday night op was not fun, and that current game mechanics will make it an often-recurring-not-fun event. So cut it with the smack, and deal with the points at hand, and post with your main. Your counting those capitals...? I'm not sorry there's no point being happy about the battle where lag is about 2-3 minutes... those capitals haven't even propably occassion to turn on modules... It tooks me 5 minutes to kill Cov Ops... 3 minutes locking and 2 minutes for activating guns... and 4sec to blow him... After waring on LX gate I had 20min desync... I was asking my m8s after warp out "I'm I alive? Yep u r! I'm bummping U atm" and after 20min game loaded proper Grid :) So pls don't cry it's just a game... for me it was funny and don't be lame post with your mains pls :P
Snaut Minmatar Beach Boys Fallen Souls	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:09:00 - [19] you're whining about the lag related losses last night? ... look forward for the massacre expected tonight YARRR !!!!
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:14:00 - [20] Originally by: Venzon 2003 damm, bad news for razor... we started getting back our capitals already Wow, you already started gettingback the only carrier you lost in BKG?! You guys are intense! Originally by: Partridge CLERICS Cry baby,cry :) yes and my personal proposition to DevTeam: Swedish beer need to be nerfed... 2.8% is too low... Rate of Fire is to high and it waste more ammo than autocannons... and a conclusion... I have to dock to often... Seriously, you Fallen Souls guys are about 400% cooler in your own minds than other people think of you. You're the laughing stock of Eve, do you realize? Your own allies laugh at you. You are bad in small gangs. You are awful in fleets. You've lost every single capital fight you have ever been involved in where you provide the majority of the capital ships. You bring blasterthrons to fleet battles. You doubletank your carriers. I seriously doubt you have ever had positive efficiency against any other alliance. When we attack your NPCers, they call for help. And you respond by warping in other NPCers. You haven't ever actually taken a system up north by a fight, you've only inherited them, and you're only allowed to keep them because Branch is between you and us, and Triumvirate doesn't seem interested in you. So far, you've been pretty much the biggest purveyors of smacktalk on this thread, and many others relating to the BKG fight, and yet, you have the most apalling PVP record of any current Northern space-holding alliance. Everyone knows it except, seemingly, you. If you want to continue this smackfest, bring it on, but be prepared to deal with facing the reality of your PVP accomplishments and failures. If not, hopefully your CEOs can rein you in. I made this topic, because I thought it was more fun when POSes were neutered. It gave subcapital pilots something fun to do. They've now not merely been relegated to the pre-change boredom of babysitting capitals. That would be superior to what it's become. Now, battleships are not only mere backup to the capital fleet in a POS war, they first have to lay down on the cruicible of the directed-fire, cyno-jamming POS. Mark my words, when the tide changes, if it does, and M.Pire/Fatal get to deal with killing a cyno-jammer on a defended, targetting POS, we won't see Fallen Souls smacktalking. We'll see them making the same threads we see now.
Bananna Lips Amarr Incorporated Inc LTD	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:16:00 - [21] Originally by: QuantumX WoW.. 7 posts of rubbish to the op's thread rather then constructive comments, tell you what i have noticed a major decline in quality of posting to these forums over the last few years.. Sad really i always though of EvE as a more mature players game. Unfortunatly your absolutly right Look my name is Bananna Lips and im so good!null
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:16:00 - [22] Originally by: QuantumX WoW.. 7 posts of rubbish to the op's thread rather then constructive comments, tell you what i have noticed a major decline in quality of posting to these forums over the last few years.. Sad really i always though of EvE as a more mature players game. /signed CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Malachon Draco eXceed Inc. INVICTUS.	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:28:00 - [23] How are you engaging the POSes? When we took down a number of POS, we started at 155 km distance and disabled all the warp disruption batteries, and only after that did we move in closer to take out the guns, then the cynojammer and then the POS. Are you going in close right away? Or are the POS guns instapopping BS? ------------------------------------------------ Murphy's Golden Rule: Whoever has the gold, makes the rules.
Pan Crastus Amarr	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:37:00 - [24] Shoot the medium guns first... They have 1/20th the HP of the cyno jammer. EVE Online: a cold, cruel world where (RL-)rich people replace their losses with GTCs sold to poor students who need to farm ISK to afford their play time ...
LadyShu Federation of Synthetic Persons YouWhat	Posted - 2007.08.31 11:43:00 - [25] Edited by: LadyShu on 31/08/2007 11:44:06 i suggest a huge and super expensive ECM bomb for stealth bombers who can render a pos for a VERY short time useless (jam weapon systems). And lets say the POS can only be hit 3 times with it before the weapons adjust and are invulnerable for this sort of attack for the rest of day ;) so you can BUY you a little timeframe todo some harm to outside anchored items like cynojammers. ... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Boonaki Caldari Knights of Chaos Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:03:00 - [26] So the defender looses 2 bil+ if you win in POS gear, you lose a 100 fleet battleships that should be insured with named or tech 1 loot, you lose 1 bil. Sounds fair to me. Fear the Ibis of doom! 113
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:03:00 - [27] Originally by: Malachon Draco How are you engaging the POSes? When we took down a number of POS, we started at 155 km distance and disabled all the warp disruption batteries, and only after that did we move in closer to take out the guns, then the cynojammer and then the POS. Are you going in close right away? Or are the POS guns instapopping BS? Even with the warp disruptor down, 8 medium artilleries will nearly instapop said doubleplated BS. M.Pire has been smart, and their turrets are all domination, I'm sure that helps, but nothing that isn't overcome with just one more guy targetting. Anyways, it's not really a matter of killing the disruption array. It's the lock time of the guns, which allows rather quick cycling from one target to the next.
Koryvarn Amarr Liberty Rogues	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:07:00 - [28] I love how Fallen Souls member states it took him 20 mins to load the grid. And then says "cyno jammers and the blob related lag they create is fine". As for the Cyno jammer issue - it's just ********. What they could do, is just reduce the hp by 1000% but allow multiplce cyno jammers in a system. They'd still prevent random capitals entering unless there was a support fleet of BS in the system allowing them entry - the way it should be.
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:12:00 - [29] Originally by: Boonaki So the defender looses 2 bil+ if you win in POS gear, you lose a 100 fleet battleships that should be insured with named or tech 1 loot, you lose 1 bil. Sounds fair to me. Please invade us.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:16:00 - [30] drones are neat for those annoying guns, if you have enough range on drone control ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
Maximor Fifth Exiled Legion Ground Zeero	Posted - 2007.08.31 12:47:00 - [31] POS's used to be speed bumps for any well equipped fleet. A "deathstar" was just a larger speed bump. From an RP standing, POS's were capable of using the largest and most powerful(non siege) weaponry in the game. Yet most POS's were nothing more than a several hour long grind. The balance was in the attacker's favor. POS weaponry was randomly targeted and didn't stay on target for very long. In comes the patch. We have to move defensive batteries outside the shields. The lock times get severely nerfed. In return, we get the ability to target POS weaponry and the hp's of POS batteries get buffed significantly. However, unless someone is there to control the weaponry, the POS still randomly targets people except that now, POS weaponry has to establish its own lock which in some cases, could take several minutes. Not only that, but logsitics modules and ships received a significant buff to include triage mode for carriers. To top it off, the batteries can be disabled without actually destroying the CT, allowing the attackers to regroup and come back later. POS's are STILL just a speedbump, they just take a bit longer to drive over, depending on the number of modules at the POS. The advantage is STILL with the attackers. The only exception to this is in a zero sec capital system. Then we get another patch. POS battery lock times are increased,(Not accross the board, small weapon arrays were not changed.) In some cases, the increase ammounted to only 25%. And people begin to cry nerf? POS's are still speedbumps. The difference is that they can be properly defended now. The advantage is not on either side. There are some game mechanics that provide an advantage to defenders such as capital sovreignty and cyno jammers. But there are also things that benefit the attackers, such as the "fix" for POS shields that prevents a carrier from launching fighter and then ducking back inside the shields. Or the mechanic that prevents friendly units from targeting each other or anything outside the shields while inside. BTW, for the record, POS battery lock times are STILL longer than they originally were, even after the buff in the last patch. If you hold a unix shell up to your ear, can you still hear the c: ?
Jags Minmatar M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.08.31 13:04:00 - [32] FFS stop the smack, the OP makes a valid and well presented post. Personally I dont agree with him but he is entitled to his view without smack. FWIW I think RZR faced one of the best setup POS Ive ever seen and also having it well manned helps in taking down the BS attacking it. Cyno jammers are slightly overpowered with a bit too many HPs , maybe cut the HP in half and its fairer, atm we will take advantage of it though
General Apocalypse Amarr The Merchant Marines	Posted - 2007.08.31 13:40:00 - [33] FC : We lost ! Quick to the forums ! Originally by: CCP Morpheus nerf ccp plz Originally by: CCP Oveur To the gankmobile!
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.08.31 13:47:00 - [34] Originally by: Maximor POS's used to be speed bumps for any well equipped fleet. Very well said, Maximor! I don't think there is anything wrong with the best setup DeathStar being able to pop a bunch of battleships. The recent changes to POS mechanics are all a win situation for me. In the past, you only attacked a POS when you knew you had enough dreads to spread out the damage. No Dreads ever died to a POS it seems...and the system was locked down so attacking the Dreads was a very rare occurrance. Witness MC's complete destruction of 100+? POS's without losing a single capital ship. So... I support the current mechanics of Cyno Jammers. Perhaps there is a hit point balance issue, but I've shot a few Cyno Jammers and they can be killed. Just not killed for free. P.S. Sorry to disagree with Razor on this one... I'll see if I can get another tanked BS to help you guys tonight. Just so you know I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is.
ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf	Posted - 2007.08.31 14:41:00 - [35] Originally by: General Apocalypse FC : We lost ! Quick to the forums ! Why make fun of GOONSWARM?
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.31 15:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Central Scrutinizer So, a brief rundown of the points: - It's not fun. - It requires blobbage, up to node-death levels. - It is far too slow to take a system, if both sides are competent and nearly evenly matched. On the two first points, this is not just a point for the cyno jammers but for the whole damned POS warfare system... On the last point, if two sides are evenly matched, the defender should get the advantage. CCP want more stable 0.0 empires, and this is a way of contributing to that. POS need to be dangerous, even unmanned. Otherwise timezone coverage becomes too powerful. It shouldn't be mandatory to have full timezone coverage just to participate in 0.0 empire politics, since this would penalise a lot of 'national' corp/alliances... Personally, I think the whole "Move things out of pos shield" was a monumental mistake by CCP since it encourages blobbing to a degree not seen before. Especially the argument of "Making small gangs useful" makes me laugh all the time, since EXACTLY the opposite has happened. Small gangs are now more useless than ever! My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Raneru Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.08.31 17:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Central Scrutinizer We crashed the node, then raped 10 of your unsupported capital ships, and I stil want it changed. It makes so much more sense that way, doesn't it? exactly why cyno jammers need to be changed. instead of a 100man fleet + caps doin the job, you first need a 300 man fleet to take the cyno jammer down. (dead node).
Interval Grenadiers	Posted - 2007.08.31 18:09:00 - [38] How about this. When the enemy drops a sov claiming pos in the system the cyno-jammer gets prevented from onlining. Also the enemy can't have the pos claim sov with an active cyno-jammer in system?
Trac3rt GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.08.31 18:19:00 - [39] Edited by: Trac3rt on 31/08/2007 18:19:36 Originally by: Tzrailasa i.e. there should be a counter to blobs that size and above different from bringing your own blob and lag the servers to death.... This is after all about having fun, and nobody I know thinks lagged fights are fun. Current gameplay however, mandates blobs by its very nature.... INTERMEDIATE OBJECTIVES FOR SMALL GANGS! We don't neccecarily need a counter to blobs, more a point of diminishing returns where the effectiveness a single fleet is significantly less than the effectiveness of multiple smaller fleets. For example in a 250v250 situation if team A blobs up in System 1, and team B has 4x50 man fleets in systems 1,2,3 and 4. Unless team A also splits their fleet they will lose 3/4 strategic objectives, which would eventually cost them war was they lose everything else while blobbing up a single system. If team A also splits their fleet, then you are looking at a situation where you have multiple 50v50 skirmishes over multiple systems which would be a lot more fun, and a lot easier on the server. There are so many strategies that could be employed by either side to get ahead it would make alliance combat a lot more fun. This is unfeasable at the moment because there is nothing a 50 person fleet of mixed shiptypes can do with regards to territorial warfare at the moment. You don't need to change the fleet game mechanic at all, you need to change the territorial warfare mechanic to make multiple smaller groups more effective than a single blob. Regarding the Cyno Jammer, I see a lot of people complaining about them and a lot of people smacking those who complain, but nobody saying anything good about them. I think they are a great idea, but the amount of effort it takes to offline one is unreasonable. The obvious solutions would be to exampine the amount of raw HP they have and the amount of defense you can equip on a tower with one anchored. ___
Joshua Foiritain Gallente Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.08.31 18:25:00 - [40] Cyno jammers are fine tbh, defenders need to have the advantage here, being able to randomly drop capitals on your enemy is silly. ----- [Coreli Corporation Mainframe]
MrRx7 Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 18:32:00 - [41] Originally by: Central Scrutinizer Edited by: Central Scrutinizer on 31/08/2007 10:12:05 Originally by: Bakurra Trunkated trunkated again Stop posting please, your replies are no better than the smack in this thread, you make us look bad.. so please STFU.
ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf	Posted - 2007.08.31 18:57:00 - [42] Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Cyno jammers are fine tbh, defenders need to have the advantage here, being able to randomly drop capitals on your enemy is silly. You make a good point.
Great Artista Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.08.31 19:20:00 - [43] Originally by: ttrrwafsfamfjkasjf Originally by: Joshua Foiritain Cyno jammers are fine tbh, defenders need to have the advantage here, being able to randomly drop capitals on your enemy is silly. You make a good point. He does, but blobs are silly too... Something is very wrong here... _______ ◕◡◕ Space perverts and forum warriors united. [PERVS] My opinions rather rarely represent my corp, not to mention my alliance hihihi...
Tzrailasa Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.08.31 19:23:00 - [44] Originally by: Trac3rt Originally by: Tzrailasa i.e. there should be a counter to blobs that size and above different from bringing your own blob and lag the servers to death.... This is after all about having fun, and nobody I know thinks lagged fights are fun. Current gameplay however, mandates blobs by its very nature.... .... You don't need to change the fleet game mechanic at all, you need to change the territorial warfare mechanic to make multiple smaller groups more effective than a single blob. .... To a certain degree I agree that this would be a good idea if it could be implemented, but the fact is that as long as lag-blobbing the server makes it possible for people to AVOID fights (simply because the server can't handle it and people CAN'T realistically engage), they'll continue doing it.... If large blobs (say 100+) are..... DISCOURAGED.... what you're suggesting have to happen anyway.... My personal favorite would be a Doomsday-like weapon, mounted on a BS, that can either be activated by the pilot, or is automatically activated when the BS dies (to make it usable when load-lagged). If there are less than 100 ships on grid, it does absolutely nothing. If more are present, damage/range goes UP along these lines: 100-150 people: 20-50 km range, 500-3000 damage 150-200 people: 50-100 km range, 3000-30000 damage 200-250 people: 100-150km range, 30000-100000 damage 250+ people: WTFPWN all non-capitals on grid There are tweaks needed, and the numbers are only indicative, but it would effectively discourage people from blobbing.... My views are my own. They do not represent the views of my corporation or alliance.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.08.31 20:51:00 - [45] Cyno jammers should have little hp, but interceptor size, so that frigates do effective dps against them. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Central Scrutinizer RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.08.31 23:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Tzrailasa Originally by: Trac3rt Originally by: Tzrailasa i.e. there should be a counter to blobs that size and above different from bringing your own blob and lag the servers to death.... This is after all about having fun, and nobody I know thinks lagged fights are fun. Current gameplay however, mandates blobs by its very nature.... .... You don't need to change the fleet game mechanic at all, you need to change the territorial warfare mechanic to make multiple smaller groups more effective than a single blob. .... To a certain degree I agree that this would be a good idea if it could be implemented, but the fact is that as long as lag-blobbing the server makes it possible for people to AVOID fights (simply because the server can't handle it and people CAN'T realistically engage), they'll continue doing it.... The think is, that when you have node-death levels, which are required in any large op, there is no reason to not jump in. The bnode will crash, then the two sides are on roughly equal footing, or at least, equal chance of being on the upper hand. Node crashing is now a tactical decision, since nothing else works.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.01 01:06:00 - [47] Cyno jammers should require multiple systems to form a "network" before they come online IMO. Say you need 3 systems in a constellation with a cyno jammer in each system before they online. Now the attacker has 3 targets.
ghosttr Amarr ARK-CORP FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.01 01:36:00 - [48] I think levels of constellation sov should be required, to anchor a jammer you should have to have at least 1 outpost in the constellation. Also jammers should have a little less hp, and pos guns should be ineffective if unmanned. . Do not read this thread!!!
lofty29 Reikoku Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.09.01 01:41:00 - [49] Just use logistic fit bses. Stick remote rep drones in all their bays and keep them in a tight gorup, and armor resist them all. Win --- Project Mayhem 2
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.09.01 02:25:00 - [50] Originally by: Tzrailasa Personally, I think the whole "Move things out of pos shield" was a monumental mistake by CCP since it encourages blobbing to a degree not seen before. Especially the argument of "Making small gangs useful" makes me laugh all the time, since EXACTLY the opposite has happened. Small gangs are now more useless than ever! Although I think your post as a whole is true and well thought-out, I disagree here. I haven't been a part of a large alliance since the POS change, but I have seen a few POS sieges both defending and attacking. I have to say that the outside-the-shield changes definitely helped improve the situation for smaller gangs. Before the change there was literally nothing a smaller gang could do against a POS than grind for hours and hope they could win since there was no way they were getting out unscathed unless they actually brought the thing down. If large alliances are blobbing more than ever now, I think it probably has to do with other factors, and is not caused by this change itself. About the OP, though, I don't think it's too overpowered since if you get the sov for a cyno jammer that should give them quite an advantage. Think about RL, if a force holds a piece of land for a while it's going to get very fortified and an attack will be very costly (D-Day). --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.01 02:48:00 - [51] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 01/09/2007 02:48:57 Originally by: Jags FWIW I think RZR faced one of the best setup POS Ive ever seen and also having it well manned helps in taking down the BS attacking it. It was reasonably feasible to take down when the grid it was in was properly sized. At 800+ km from the turrets, while still being hit somewhat, we were at least not in 95%+ accuracy range anymore. That allowed us to at least have a preload. That's what we did the first time around, and that worked out just fine. Once the grid was tiny on the second day, and the scramblers functioning even though incapacitated, things got stupid. While the scramblers, bugged or no, were not an issue for BS - having to try to warp 100 already-lagged out guys straight into grid and back out is horribly messy. That aside, balance wise the problem lies in the domination guns. With nearly 600km optimal + falloff with Republic Fleet Emp and twice the hitpoints of a standard turret, they break what's an otherwise easy to counter module. They also come with a 90mm scan res and do 20% more damage than a regular turret, along with taking 24% less powergrid. I don't really see why we need pimp structures in the first place, let alone more mechanics that encourage collecting faction loot. Anyway, all that is doable until incapacitated modules keep firing and the grid is too small to preload in. Then you might as well call it a day :P
Tassolhof M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.02 11:37:00 - [52] Edited by: Tassolhof on 02/09/2007 11:38:36 At the end of the day, if this was your POS, this post would be different, you'd be loving the POS changes. At the end of the day you DID take down the cyno jammer in BKG TWICE in 3 days, and what did you do.... YOU jumped your cap fleet back out on both occations!!!!!!!! If you had left your dreads in system, we would not have been able to keep the cyno jammer on-line. So before you start moaning about the pos change, why don't you look to the planners of the attacks, and re-think your strategy
Fata Mea M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.02 14:31:00 - [53] Just a little more information... The first time our Cyno Jammer pos was hit and placed in reinforced, the cyno jammer was disabled, all the guns were disabled, and enemy caps were brought in system. We spent 7 hours w/ carriers remote repping all the damage outside the pos without a single hostile driveby. You cant expect to control and take a hostile system when you're only locking it down for a few hours every day and then sitting at a pos afk for the rest of it to pad your numbers in local. The Cyno Jammer and pos defense mechanics are very close to perfect imo. We've both been on offense against yours in S-E and on defense in BKG. It should be a HARD and LONG affair to take a hostile station system, not a weekend warrior thing. --------------------------- Fata Mea US TZ Director M.CORP / MPIRE
Delerium Primus M. Corp M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.02 14:33:00 - [54] Cyno Jammers Cyno jammers are good in the sense they facilite locking down all cyno activity (inc Friendlies). Only by offlining this can you get friendly or hostile capitals in system. Fair enough trade me thinks. Now let me put a scenario to you IF CCP were to nerf the module so it stays offline if the tower is in reinforced and that the hostiles and friendlies operate on different timezones. Day 1 AM - Hostile fleet comes into system and knocks out cyno jammer and jumps their capitals in to then knock other pos's into reinforced. Hostiles then jump capitals out knowing they can always get them back in system. Day 1 PM - Friendlies primetime - friendlies rep up all they can but get no gain on on defending their systems. They are left defenceless. Day 2 AM - Hostiles return and kill friendly pos's and take system. Obviously the above is a sped up version of a system takedown but its totally biased to the attacking force. Systems SHOULD be hard to take down these days to ensure that a blob fleet cant take them overnight. If people want to take systems these days they should camp it 24/7 and ensure friendlies CANNOT repair stations and pos's. I can feel for the razor/mm/tri fleet that lost countless battleships taking out the cyno jammer but if you are going to goto war, you need to ensure that your coffers are full and that you can afford to take systems. It SHOULD be expensive. CCP has the balance right now I beleive and Im not saying that as we are effectivley holding our systems well but you can see what would happen if it wasn't like this. Delerium Primus M. PIRE
Berrik Radhok GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.02 14:44:00 - [55] Originally by: Lord Pelivar cant cap ships warp normally ? if so whats why worry about a cyno jammer? just cyno a couple dreads into system then warp to pos ? look at how stupid you are Originally by: Khavi Vetali Oh don't worry, the goons are just as suicidal with their battleships as they are with their frigates.
Jenna Shame	Posted - 2007.09.02 14:45:00 - [56] The Devs don't want any one power to dominate 0.0. This is why we had the BoB nerf patch in Rev 2.0. Now its all about the blob.

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