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el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:33:00 -
[1]
Edited by: el toppolino on 03/09/2007 12:33:47
it seems to me pvp in small to medium gangs are mostly now based on speed and agility setups. i always thx the eve god when we have a huggin or rapier near.
whoring a lot of killboard reveals the excessive use of minmatar ships (vaga sabre etc) also. speaking to a friend in a pvp alliance i hear the whole alliance prefers poly-rigs .
ok they do less damage than other setups but comparing the races what can really counter speed expect the minmatar recons ? i would say nothing. missles dont hit ehm, rails dont, maxed out drones cant follow. what is more ccp encourge the speed-gamestyle by adding more speed to the deimos. the new NOS-nerf seems to strengthen this as well.
so what can be done ? i would be happy if the others races get equal gear to counter the speed with speed or with web-bonus-thingy. adjust maybe web range to disruptor range and adjust the huggin bonus to the arazu/lachesis bonus.
otherwhise we ll all fly minmatar soon :)b
"but sir my flycatcher flys 3000 and behaves like a brick" - "dude why the hell didnt you train sabre"
toppo
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:38:00 -
[2]
do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?
That there is the 'balance'. This is their tank.
If you want to get the web increased so you can't use speed, you better give minnie the same tank as amarr, not the same as a wet paper towel
--
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Hastrabull
Caldari
FATAL REVELATIONS
FATAL Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:41:00 -
[3]
well... im training minnie ships for last 2 months on my alt ;)
FATAL EMPIRE COWALITION OF SOULS! |
Banana Torres
The Green Banana Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:42:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Spurty
do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?
Nevva, they may be called missiles, but I think of them as hittiles.
That is why the Khanid changes are so cool with a capital k. Missile boats with lowslots.
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lin ta
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:43:00 -
[5]
you must be joking. all except the maelstrom have split weapons systems that require much more training than other races to keep up. missiles, drones, turrets, plus shield and armor. the training to be a decent mater pilot is long. the suppose strength of matar, speed, is a few km more than other ships. with the days of snakes and things this is nothing. all other races have been buffed beyond matar, both directly and indirectly. it amazes me that the matars don't complain more but when you put this bull**** out something needs to be said. leave us the 1 or 2 ships that people still use.
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el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Spurty
do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?
That there is the 'balance'. This is their tank.
If you want to get the web increased so you can't use speed, you better give minnie the same tank as amarr, not the same as a wet paper towel
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
Barthezz
Paradox v2.0
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:46:00 -
[7]
If your in a gang of ships with an actual tank then it shouldnt be too hard to kill a speed-setup gang as long as you can tank their damage output that is. Or at least long enough.
Spread out, 5-10km away from each other (6-7km if you use remote reps), they cant really orbit you at 10-15km then as that will get them into web range of someone in your gang.
I'm guessing your running into 0utbreak too in v7d 
Only a few (3 I think) pilots in our corp can fly speed setups so we usually visit you guys in mixed gangs, but you never want to fight that either 
Yea our gangs usually reasonably sized, but I swear thats because when someone mentions v7d and/or fury corp, suddenly everyone in the corp wants to come
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Spurty
Caldari
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:55:00 -
[8]
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)
well thats a different question :p
I recommend a Myrmidon with x2 faction webs (Certainly killed my first vaga fast!)
After that, any reckon with a web range greater than 14km
Thats 1 ship and 1 class.
It has to stop though, the homogenizing of ships.
We shouldn't be seeing nano-gallente ships, they already have x2 the firepower of all the other races with their ships getting lovely drone enhancements.
I fly all races, so I don't really care about which one gets the most love, I'll just fly that until the next patch changes things, I'm just trying to put my point across neatly, not wave the 'Vaga-love' flag
--
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Jim McGregor
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Posted - 2007.09.03 12:58:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Jim McGregor on 03/09/2007 12:58:54
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)
Its the minmatar equivalent of the dominix. Dominix is even harder to kill with a generic setup than a Vaga is.
And how many ships like the Vagabond does minmatar have? Oh thats right... 0. Vaga is the only one.
---
The Disclosure Project
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el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 13:01:00 -
[10]
Edited by: el toppolino on 03/09/2007 13:02:05
Originally by: Barthezz
If your in a gang of ships with an actual tank then it shouldnt be too hard to kill a speed-setup gang as long as you can tank their damage output that is. Or at least long enough.
Spread out, 5-10km away from each other (6-7km if you use remote reps), they cant really orbit you at 10-15km then as that will get them into web range of someone in your gang.
I'm guessing your running into 0utbreak too in v7d
Only a few (3 I think) pilots in our corp can fly speed setups so we usually visit you guys in mixed gangs, but you never want to fight that either
Yea our gangs usually reasonably sized, but I swear thats because when someone mentions v7d and/or fury corp, suddenly everyone in the corp wants to come
hehe well too many IAC pilots died already, often to a speed ishtar which needs an insane amount of iskys to be real fast :)
yeah the outbreak killboard defo tells this story barthezz :)
but back to the topic. you poooooooor minmatar i hear here. since the missles changes to amarr i think there is no race that doesnt need to train multiple weapon platforms to be good.
as eve is best played when you focus you skill training on fewest aims possible only the idiots will train all races (or those 60 mill SP ppl that dunno what to train now).
so basically i see no difference between a caldari dictor and a minmatar dictor. they do same job (at least should) but the speed and agility compared is a joke. even the eris is 2k faster than the caldari ****. comparing a nano-ishtar and a vaga: yes the ishtar can be fast and will have same ****ty tank but you ll invest ****loads of isk to get close.
the deimos speed change: isnt it a change into the direction i am speaking of ?
damn i have to clean my ishtar now myself..the minmatar slaves died to amarr missles
there is only one dictor in eve: sabre
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
Blind Man
Angel Deep Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 13:12:00 -
[11]
so train minmatar then lol
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Barthezz
Paradox v2.0
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.03 13:23:00 -
[12]
Tbh 0utbreak is just bloody annoying with their speed setups, they dont fly anything else (ok not totally true, they did drop 11 carriers and 2 ms on 2 of IAC's freighters a while back).
I think faction webs are the way to get most speed setup pilots, that and a bit of speed yourself. Overload your webs and they shouldnt last too long.
Sadly enough officer webs only give 75% reduction which isnt enough to kill most vagabonds.
Perhaps they should add a fall-off range to webs and make them slow down targets faster. If they do then I do think Minmatar needs a bit of help in the tanking department. At least some ships (not all, the BS tanks can be pretty good already, but I feel the BC and smaller need a bit of help).
A 10km web with a 5km fall-off would be nice (perhaps more?). Means a fleeting web would still web 45% at 15km range, while not as effective you could have several people kill a vaga's speed enough to get into range more.
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el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 13:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Barthezz
Tbh 0utbreak is just bloody annoying with their speed setups, they dont fly anything else (ok not totally true, they did drop 11 carriers and 2 ms on 2 of IAC's freighters a while back).
I think faction webs are the way to get most speed setup pilots, that and a bit of speed yourself. Overload your webs and they shouldnt last too long.
Sadly enough officer webs only give 75% reduction which isnt enough to kill most vagabonds.
Perhaps they should add a fall-off range to webs and make them slow down targets faster. If they do then I do think Minmatar needs a bit of help in the tanking department. At least some ships (not all, the BS tanks can be pretty good already, but I feel the BC and smaller need a bit of help).
A 10km web with a 5km fall-off would be nice (perhaps more?). Means a fleeting web would still web 45% at 15km range, while not as effective you could have several people kill a vaga's speed enough to get into range more.
well i use faction web on a ship and it works out well...but the cost is ouchy. i am also against the basic tendence of nerving everything but in my 3 years of playing eve never did i have the feeling like now that something is wrong speaking of the speed ships. i wouldnt say a word if my missles or railguns or drones would have the slightest chance of a hit against those speed ships :P but there is no chance (and yes my drones rails and missles are very good trained :))
/me wonders if there will be a skill called: ANTI-DRONE-STUCK-TOGETHER. on the other hand it wouldnt make a diff as they are to slow anyways :P
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
Essque
Starlancers
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.09.03 14:33:00 -
[14]
Originally by: el toppolino
Originally by: Spurty
do you know just how often you miss when you fly at high speed?
That there is the 'balance'. This is their tank.
If you want to get the web increased so you can't use speed, you better give minnie the same tank as amarr, not the same as a wet paper towel
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga. mostly you will just say: ah forget it let him go makes no sense. correct me if i am wrong. i speak of actually fighting it and being able to kill it. and i dont speak of a noob in a vaga standing still and begging to be killed :)
Nano Ishtar.
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar
Spartan Industries
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.03 14:42:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 03/09/2007 14:44:00
Originally by: Essque
Nano Ishtar.
This ^^
More dps than any minie HAC.
Oh and btw a well set up raven can kill an unwary Vaga ...I wont name names, but a Nossing Raven with faction web and MWD, pwned a Vaga from my corp
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 14:56:00 -
[16]
nano ishtar is hwat i fly but if you are serious you would also mention nano ishtar costs a fortune. comaping maybe t2 fitted ishtar and vaga the speed difference will be a joke
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
Captian Internet
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 14:59:00 -
[17]
Vagabonds are the honda civics of eve!
Local Thread 107-b |
Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar
Spartan Industries
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:07:00 -
[18]
Originally by: el toppolino
nano ishtar is hwat i fly but if you are serious you would also mention nano ishtar costs a fortune. comaping maybe t2 fitted ishtar and vaga the speed difference will be a joke
So there IS a ship better at roaming gangs, and it's not Minmatar. So your original complaint is bit odd now since you already fly the Isthar 
The cost is irrelevant, as no amount of isk will give my vaga the same dps as an Ishtar.
If you put a 6km/s Vaga up against a 3km/s Ishtar, the Vaga's speed would allow it to...
run away
Speed is not everything, it just allows roaming gangs to take greater risks, and have a chance to escape when the blob arrives.
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Radgun
Minmatar
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:08:00 -
[19]
reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago
nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar
giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it 
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Aeden
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:16:00 -
[20]
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.
Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.
2isk
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Jack Target
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:17:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Jack Target on 03/09/2007 15:17:05
I will be very annoyed if Minmatar are nerfed, because it's taking me ages to skill for the ships. I want to be able to run away if I need to.
In addition, Gallente are best for inflicting damage (Blasterthron, Dominix).
Therefore, if Minamtar are nerfed I would expect Gallente to be nerfed as well to conserve the game's balance - it's only fair.
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Reem Fairchild
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:19:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 03/09/2007 15:20:25
I said it another thread. Cut the mwd speed boost by 50% across the board. Solves the problem with extremely high speeds without taking away from the Minmatar their one advantage over other races (since they will still be the fastest), while at the same time making afterburners viable again. Also, makes it easier for Caldari to use their range advantage effectively (thus hopefully ending the forum whining of angry Caldari pilots).
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Gabriel Karade
Nulli-Secundus
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:22:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Radgun
reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago
nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar
giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it
How can you say with a straight face, 'nothing has changed' when speeds have been creeping up and creeping up, to the point where, the counters to small fast ships (light drones, light missiles) can't even keep up with cruiser-sized platforms (and wouldn't do diddly even if they could)...?
We're getting back to the kind of speeds we saw in the old Dual MWD days, and the game simply isn't balanced for things travelling that fast...
Put it this way, could you imagine the state of things if slave implants gave a repair amount bonus, and had no stacking penalty against aux nano-pumps? - Actually even then, combined with full Centus X-type tank, you still wouldn't be afforded the same level of security and safety as some of these speed setups have.
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Video - 'War-Machine' |
Leroy Payne
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:37:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 03/09/2007 15:20:25
I said it another thread. Cut the mwd speed boost by 50% across the board. Solves the problem with extremely high speeds without taking away from the Minmatar their one advantage over other races (since they will still be the fastest), while at the same time making afterburners viable again. Also, makes it easier for Caldari to use their range advantage effectively (thus hopefully ending the forum whining of angry Caldari pilots).
I think that's like taking off a veruca with a machete, inelegant and over the top, and likely to have unintended repercussions.
How about nerfing the one thing that actually causes the problems - snakes. It's just typical of the way the game is headed that isk+ a mediochre level of skill = total win these days.
motherhsips in low-sec, full pirate implant sets, and faction webbers needed to fight speed fits. Being an elite pvper has less to do these days with any actual skills and more to do with how much money you can throw at a ship fitting, and in response people with less money have no choice but to blob up to achieve success, because the solopwnmobiles that were never supposed to exist are being allowed into the game left right and centre.
Please CCP take note and try to solve this difficult problem.
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JoeSomebody
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:41:00 -
[25]
i don't see a problem with any minnie ships other than vaga, so... fix vaga
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Pilok Shitfly
Minmatar
Soliders Of Eve
The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.09.03 15:54:00 -
[26]
Originally by: JoeSomebody
i don't see a problem with any minnie ships other than vaga, so... fix vaga
I don't see a problem with the vaga, so leave it as it is
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:01:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2007 16:02:44
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Radgun
reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago
nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar
giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it
How can you say with a straight face, 'nothing has changed' when speeds have been creeping up and creeping up, to the point where, the counters to small fast ships (light drones, light missiles) can't even keep up with cruiser-sized platforms (and wouldn't do diddly even if they could)...?
We're getting back to the kind of speeds we saw in the old Dual MWD days, and the game simply isn't balanced for things travelling that fast...
Put it this way, could you imagine the state of things if slave implants gave a repair amount bonus, and had no stacking penalty against aux nano-pumps? - Actually even then, combined with full Centus X-type tank, you still wouldn't be afforded the same level of security and safety as some of these speed setups have.
Everything is increasing not just speed. Theres more stronger tanking ships through their bonuses, through rigs and hardwirings just like speed. If your saying speed has increased to much then why not say tanking and damage has increased to much? (to those who can afford the items)
Sure speed offers some safety, so does 1000+ dps tanks especially since the nos nerf as all you can do is wait for it to cap out/run out of cap charges or bring more damage to break through the tank. WCS were nerfed to lower safety, increasing the skill it takes to fly speed ships, its not just set orbit and hit mwd, there is actually some skill to flying them, more skill than just sitting on stations/gates, activating hardeners and reps and shooting who your told to.
Speed was addressed with the Istab and mwd speed rig (name escapes me) nerfs, theres enough counters to speed without nerfing yet another tactic because people just want tank + DPS to matter.
-------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent"
EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Leroy Payne
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:06:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/09/2007 15:19:49
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.
Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.
The vagabond, muninn, rapier and rifter are our only good non-cap ships. We have nothing else to fly. No nber megathron-hyperion-rohk-raven, no nber drake, myrmidon or no nber anything but these ships.
We are not complaining, we are not amar.
Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish.
Sabre = Awesome
Wolf/Stiletto = Pretty damn good within their classes
Stabber/Rupture = both great cruisers
Huginn = Awesome
Hurricane = Awesome
Sleipnir = Total Win
Typhoon/Tempest/Maelstrom = Great utility & drone bS/Great Sniper/Great gunnery BS
Minnie have got plenty of great ships. So it appears you are whining just like a dirty Amarrian. Suck it up and love the great race with all these great ships is comes with.
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Flinx Evenstar
Minmatar
Spartan Industries
Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:07:00 -
[29]
Originally by: JoeSomebody
i don't see a problem with any minnie ships other than vaga, so... fix vaga
Yeah fix Vaga!! It needs another turret slot and a drone bay big enough to carry 5 large 
Oh and an extra mid slot would come in handy too please CCP
I, erm, like kill things and stuff |
Leroy Payne
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2007 16:02:44
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Originally by: Radgun
reminds me of the "Nerf caldari!" threads from a couple of years ago
nothing has changed, yet was only a matter of time until "nerf minmatar" threads appeared, since speed is one of the assets of minmatar
giving other races stronger webs or webbing ships would be wrong, if you've picked the wrong race for your play style change it
How can you say with a straight face, 'nothing has changed' when speeds have been creeping up and creeping up, to the point where, the counters to small fast ships (light drones, light missiles) can't even keep up with cruiser-sized platforms (and wouldn't do diddly even if they could)...?
We're getting back to the kind of speeds we saw in the old Dual MWD days, and the game simply isn't balanced for things travelling that fast...
Put it this way, could you imagine the state of things if slave implants gave a repair amount bonus, and had no stacking penalty against aux nano-pumps? - Actually even then, combined with full Centus X-type tank, you still wouldn't be afforded the same level of security and safety as some of these speed setups have.
Everything is increasing not just speed. Theres more stronger tanking ships through their bonuses, through rigs and hardwirings just like speed. If your saying speed has increased to much then why not say tanking and damage has increased to much? (to those who can afford the items)
Sure speed offers some safety, so does 1000+ dps tanks especially since the nos nerf as all you can do is wait for it to cap out/run out of cap charges or bring more damage to break through the tank. WCS were nerfed to lower safety, increasing the skill it takes to fly speed ships, its not just set orbit and hit mwd, there is actually some skill to flying them, more skill than just sitting on stations/gates, activating hardeners and reps and shooting who your told to.
Speed was addressed with the Istab and mwd speed rig (name escapes me) nerfs, theres enough counters to speed without nerfing yet another tactic because people just want tank + DPS to matter.
Look your comparison is not a good one.
Tanking has gone up yes - but so has DPS.
Speed has gone up, but are missiles and drones any faster? No. Is the tracking on any better? no (except lasers and this is only to bring them back into line with other guns)Affordable scramble range has gone up, but web range hasn't. All these things serve the speedfit while making its counters more and more useless.
Speed has gone up, but the natural counters to it or ways to kill it have not gone up in strength at all.
As opposed to tanking going up a lot, but you might find youself facing t2 ammo and 5 fighter drones these days.
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el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:20:00 -
[31]
e see a general speed problem...the vaga and sabre is just the top of the mountain. as i said before when there are no guns or drones or anything to hit a ship then there is something wrong. period. regardless of the less damage or tanking the ship has.
no shipclass should be faster or agile than an interceptor. just had another incident. 2 vagas with over 6k speed orbiting you and laughing as you cant hit them at all.
so screw the nerf-mini-****. speed pvp is not what i call balanced in general. else there would be something you can counter it with other than being minmatar (like guns with insane tracking or webbing-bonus/change)
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Aeden
Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 16:27:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/09/2007 15:19:49
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.
Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.
The vagabond, muninn, rapier and rifter are our only good non-cap ships. We have nothing else to fly. No nber megathron-hyperion-rohk-raven, no nber drake, myrmidon or no nber anything but these ships.
We are not complaining, we are not amar.
Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish.
Sabre = Awesome
Wolf/Stiletto = Pretty damn good within their classes
Stabber/Rupture = both great cruisers
Huginn = Awesome
Hurricane = Awesome
Sleipnir = Total Win
Typhoon/Tempest/Maelstrom = Great utility & drone bS/Great Sniper/Great gunnery BS
Minnie have got plenty of great ships. So it appears you are whining just like a dirty Amarrian. Suck it up and love the great race with all these great ships is comes with.
The huricane lost its 7th turret, it's not awesome like you say. A myrmidon can put more dps and more tank.
I'm sorry but the bs are crap. Play with quickfit or eve fitting tool, you'll see. You get either less tank or less dps than on a raven or a megathron.
Megathron can go up to 1200 with drones and rigs. Tempest can't go much higher than 900 or 1000. Alpha in fleet are less than mega's or hyperion's. Oh and amar's. Caldari ? Noooo... "hey guys here's the rohk". Ok, caldari's...
The T3 matar bs is suposed to hold 800/900 dps. But it can't shoot more than 400/450 dps if you make it so. If it's suposed to be a pve ship, then have a cargo big as a raven... Oups no. Ok... Where do I put mu cap 800 ? A fleet bs then ? Yarrr 8 turrets. Armor repair bonus. ok. no fleet bs. Then a solo/small gang bs ? "hey guys hostile are coming, a T3 matar ship... well, it worth nothing calling him primary. Let's shoot the others.".
yada yada, minmatar bs.
The phoon... nerfed... is now useless. Scorpions have a use. other races T1 have a use. Oups, sorry. No roles for phoon, it's nerfed. Give him 6 turrets (say 5) AND 6 missile bay (say 5) and there one of his bonus will actually deserve something. "Great utility ship" is saying there is 4 slot you don't know what to fit on it. This is the only bs with only one bonus.
Most of us know :
- projectiles
- missiles
- drones
- armor tanking
- shield tanking
- speed tanking
I don't want to train caldari or gallente, it's too long for me, esp guns.
2isk
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Kweel Nakashyn
Minmatar
Aeden
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:31:00 -
[33]
Originally by: el toppolino
no shipclass should be faster or agile than an interceptor. just had another incident. 2 vagas with over 6k speed orbiting you and laughing as you cant hit them at all.
Over 6k transversal nobody hits nobody. They can laugh for sure. They won't touch you anyway.
2isk
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RuleoftheBone
Minmatar
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:39:00 -
[34]
Speed and agility do not make a good gang.
Good pilots and solid tactics make the gang...and EWAR..lots of EWAR .
"Lead Me..Follow Me..Or get the **** out of my way"
General George Patton USA
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Mila Prestoc
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:42:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2007 16:44:20
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Look your comparison is not a good one.
Tanking has gone up yes - but so has DPS.
Speed has gone up, but are missiles and drones any faster? No. Is the tracking on any better? no (except lasers and this is only to bring them back into line with other guns)Affordable scramble range has gone up, but web range hasn't. All these things serve the speedfit while making its counters more and more useless.
Speed has gone up, but the natural counters to it or ways to kill it have not gone up in strength at all.
As opposed to tanking going up a lot, but you might find youself facing t2 ammo and 5 fighter drones these days.
How has damage gone up the same way tanking or speed has? I don't believe theres any new damage hardwirings. The damage rigs do half what a damage mod does and suffers stacking with them, while speed / tanking options don't have real issues with stacking penalties as theres many options to avoid stacking penalties with modules.
Logistics ships got a boost, t2 logistics drones added, theres mods/rigs to make drones and missiles go faster, don't make things get simpler because people can't counter them with there standard setups.
Speed and agility for some ships (hac's / cruisers) are the only reason to use them instead of battlecruisers (ishtar vs myr, vaga vs cane ect). I haven't heard one good reason why specialised speed ships (vaga) deserve to be nerfed, its not like there are still Typhoons doing 5km/s without snakes with agility of a cruiser.
People just don't seem to accept it as a style of play, so don't learn it, and since they don't fly like that its harder to learn its weaknesses then counter it. It's easier to just come complain to make it easier for their standard setups to counter speed.
-------------------------
Originally by: "Lord Violent"
EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
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Kazuma Saruwatari
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Posted - 2007.09.03 16:50:00 -
[36]
I've seen amarr-gallente armor-tanked based gangs kill speed-gangs for lunch.
True, they need webs, but I dont seen the problem here, since the speed-gangs usually miss a lot (check the logs when you fight one, you'll be surprised).
In fact, the deciding factor for speed-gangs is distance, if tehy can get to orbit asap, they win. Distance is random in open PvP, so who knows if you land 0km from the target, or 30km where you still ahve to boat it for the first 5 seconds.
-
Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online |
el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.03 17:02:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Mila Prestoc
Edited by: Mila Prestoc on 03/09/2007 16:44:20
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Look your comparison is not a good one.
Tanking has gone up yes - but so has DPS.
Speed has gone up, but are missiles and drones any faster? No. Is the tracking on any better? no (except lasers and this is only to bring them back into line with other guns)Affordable scramble range has gone up, but web range hasn't. All these things serve the speedfit while making its counters more and more useless.
Speed has gone up, but the natural counters to it or ways to kill it have not gone up in strength at all.
As opposed to tanking going up a lot, but you might find youself facing t2 ammo and 5 fighter drones these days.
How has damage gone up the same way tanking or speed has? I don't believe theres any new damage hardwirings. The damage rigs do half what a damage mod does and suffers stacking with them, while speed / tanking options don't have real issues with stacking penalties as theres many options to avoid stacking penalties with modules.
Logistics ships got a boost, t2 logistics drones added, theres mods/rigs to make drones and missiles go faster, don't make things get simpler because people can't counter them with there standard setups.
Speed and agility for some ships (hac's / cruisers) are the only reason to use them instead of battlecruisers (ishtar vs myr, vaga vs cane ect). I haven't heard one good reason why specialised speed ships (vaga) deserve to be nerfed, its not like there are still Typhoons doing 5km/s without snakes with agility of a cruiser.
People just don't seem to accept it as a style of play, so don't learn it, and since they don't fly like that its harder to learn its weaknesses then counter it. It's easier to just come complain to make it easier for their standard setups to counter speed.
like good ole mithy says: variety is the spice of live. what if the variety dies and all fly vagas :P
still i say its not a vaga problem in general. its a speed problem. let frigs be fast let interceptors be fast. but dont let cruisers be faster or agile like an interceptor. that simply "unrealistic". also i would like to mention that assault frigs and interceptors are nearly useless in this game now. why fly an interceptor when f.e. a sabre is much faster, deals more damage, and hey it drops even bubbles. so after the assault frigs we see now the death of the interceptors. every ship has its natural bonus. some have too many bonusssssssss.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
lin ta
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 17:03:00 -
[38]
with hp increase ships with proj turrets took an indirect nerf as well. the longer the fight lasts, all other weapons put out more dps.
skill bat really hits early with cruisers. all other races can fit all there a cruiser highs using their primary weapon, and a good number of slots matching their tank. stabber for example forces you to have both missiles and turrets trained and only 3 mid/lows. the rupture has a decent lows match to armor but the highs are even more split.
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Leroy Payne
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Posted - 2007.09.03 17:10:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/09/2007 15:19:49
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.
Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.
The vagabond, muninn, rapier and rifter are our only good non-cap ships. We have nothing else to fly. No nber megathron-hyperion-rohk-raven, no nber drake, myrmidon or no nber anything but these ships.
We are not complaining, we are not amar.
Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish.
Sabre = Awesome
Wolf/Stiletto = Pretty damn good within their classes
Stabber/Rupture = both great cruisers
Huginn = Awesome
Hurricane = Awesome
Sleipnir = Total Win
Typhoon/Tempest/Maelstrom = Great utility & drone bS/Great Sniper/Great gunnery BS
Minnie have got plenty of great ships. So it appears you are whining just like a dirty Amarrian. Suck it up and love the great race with all these great ships is comes with.
The huricane lost its 7th turret, it's not awesome like you say. A myrmidon can put more dps and more tank.
I'm sorry but the bs are crap. Play with quickfit or eve fitting tool, you'll see. You get either less tank or less dps than on a raven or a megathron.
Megathron can go up to 1200 with drones and rigs. Tempest can't go much higher than 900 or 1000. Alpha in fleet are less than mega's or hyperion's. Oh and amar's. Caldari ? Noooo... "hey guys here's the rohk". Ok, caldari's...
The T3 matar bs is suposed to hold 800/900 dps. But it can't shoot more than 400/450 dps if you make it so. If it's suposed to be a pve ship, then have a cargo big as a raven... Oups no. Ok... Where do I put mu cap 800 ? A fleet bs then ? Yarrr 8 turrets. Armor repair bonus. ok. no fleet bs. Then a solo/small gang bs ? "hey guys hostile are coming, a T3 matar ship... well, it worth nothing calling him primary. Let's shoot the others.".
yada yada, minmatar bs.
The phoon... nerfed... is now useless. Scorpions have a use. other races T1 have a use. Oups, sorry. No roles for phoon, it's nerfed. Give him 6 turrets (say 5) AND 6 missile bay (say 5) and there one of his bonus will actually deserve something. "Great utility ship" is saying there is 4 slot you don't know what to fit on it. This is the only bs with only one bonus.
Most of us know :
- projectiles
- missiles
- drones
- armor tanking
- shield tanking
- speed tanking
I don't want to train caldari or gallente, it's too long for me, esp guns.
it seems like you spend more time on quickfit worriying about your precious dps than out there killing things. Minmitar ships, all the ones you are slagging off, do a very good job at killing things in my experience. Yes a myrm can do more damage - but it relies totally on drones. No Megas do not have a higher alpha than minnie ships, to name a few points where you are mistaken. Stop running the numbers in quickfit and play the game.
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dor amwar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 17:20:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/09/2007 15:19:49
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.
Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.
The vagabond, muninn, rapier and rifter are our only good non-cap ships. We have nothing else to fly. No nber megathron-hyperion-rohk-raven, no nber drake, myrmidon or no nber anything but these ships.
We are not complaining, we are not amar.
Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish.
Sabre = Awesome
Wolf/Stiletto = Pretty damn good within their classes
Stabber/Rupture = both great cruisers
Huginn = Awesome
Hurricane = Awesome
Sleipnir = Total Win
Typhoon/Tempest/Maelstrom = Great utility & drone bS/Great Sniper/Great gunnery BS
Minnie have got plenty of great ships. So it appears you are whining just like a dirty Amarrian. Suck it up and love the great race with all these great ships is comes with.
The huricane lost its 7th turret, it's not awesome like you say. A myrmidon can put more dps and more tank.
I'm sorry but the bs are crap. Play with quickfit or eve fitting tool, you'll see. You get either less tank or less dps than on a raven or a megathron.
Megathron can go up to 1200 with drones and rigs. Tempest can't go much higher than 900 or 1000. Alpha in fleet are less than mega's or hyperion's. Oh and amar's. Caldari ? Noooo... "hey guys here's the rohk". Ok, caldari's...
The T3 matar bs is suposed to hold 800/900 dps. But it can't shoot more than 400/450 dps if you make it so. If it's suposed to be a pve ship, then have a cargo big as a raven... Oups no. Ok... Where do I put mu cap 800 ? A fleet bs then ? Yarrr 8 turrets. Armor repair bonus. ok. no fleet bs. Then a solo/small gang bs ? "hey guys hostile are coming, a T3 matar ship... well, it worth nothing calling him primary. Let's shoot the others.".
yada yada, minmatar bs.
The phoon... nerfed... is now useless. Scorpions have a use. other races T1 have a use. Oups, sorry. No roles for phoon, it's nerfed. Give him 6 turrets (say 5) AND 6 missile bay (say 5) and there one of his bonus will actually deserve something. "Great utility ship" is saying there is 4 slot you don't know what to fit on it. This is the only bs with only one bonus.
Most of us know :
- projectiles
- missiles
- drones
- armor tanking
- shield tanking
- speed tanking
I don't want to train caldari or gallente, it's too long for me, esp guns.
it seems like you spend more time on quickfit worriying about your precious dps than out there killing things. Minmitar ships, all the ones you are slagging off, do a very good job at killing things in my experience. Yes a myrm can do more damage - but it relies totally on drones. No Megas do not have a higher alpha than minnie ships, to name a few points where you are mistaken. Stop running the numbers in quickfit and play the game.
i do and people are not flying matar ships and the reasons are obvious. i don't complain but when people come up with the nerf matar this or that i start to speak up. it's always the same, 'matar are fine'. if you want to start seeing the same number of buff this or that matar thing posts that you see with all other races, just keep post the nerfs.
|
el toppolino
Caldari
Fury Corporation
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 17:44:00 -
[41]
Originally by: dor amwar
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Originally by: Leroy Payne
Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn
Edited by: Kweel Nakashyn on 03/09/2007 15:19:49
Originally by: el toppolino
i make it easier for you. name a gallente or caldari ship you would say has a chance to counter a vaga.
Any tanked ship with web drones. You have to tank just a little more of 250hp/s => a heavy armor repair II + a few things.
The vagabond, muninn, rapier and rifter are our only good non-cap ships. We have nothing else to fly. No nber megathron-hyperion-rohk-raven, no nber drake, myrmidon or no nber anything but these ships.
We are not complaining, we are not amar.
Rubbish Rubbish Rubbish.
Sabre = Awesome
Wolf/Stiletto = Pretty damn good within their classes
Stabber/Rupture = both great cruisers
Huginn = Awesome
Hurricane = Awesome
Sleipnir = Total Win
Typhoon/Tempest/Maelstrom = Great utility & drone bS/Great Sniper/Great gunnery BS
Minnie have got plenty of great ships. So it appears you are whining just like a dirty Amarrian. Suck it up and love the great race with all these great ships is comes with.
The huricane lost its 7th turret, it's not awesome like you say. A myrmidon can put more dps and more tank.
I'm sorry but the bs are crap. Play with quickfit or eve fitting tool, you'll see. You get either less tank or less dps than on a raven or a megathron.
Megathron can go up to 1200 with drones and rigs. Tempest can't go much higher than 900 or 1000. Alpha in fleet are less than mega's or hyperion's. Oh and amar's. Caldari ? Noooo... "hey guys here's the rohk". Ok, caldari's...
The T3 matar bs is suposed to hold 800/900 dps. But it can't shoot more than 400/450 dps if you make it so. If it's suposed to be a pve ship, then have a cargo big as a raven... Oups no. Ok... Where do I put mu cap 800 ? A fleet bs then ? Yarrr 8 turrets. Armor repair bonus. ok. no fleet bs. Then a solo/small gang bs ? "hey guys hostile are coming, a T3 matar ship... well, it worth nothing calling him primary. Let's shoot the others.".
yada yada, minmatar bs.
The phoon... nerfed... is now useless. Scorpions have a use. other races T1 have a use. Oups, sorry. No roles for phoon, it's nerfed. Give him 6 turrets (say 5) AND 6 missile bay (say 5) and there one of his bonus will actually deserve something. "Great utility ship" is saying there is 4 slot you don't know what to fit on it. This is the only bs with only one bonus.
Most of us know :
- projectiles
- missiles
- drones
- armor tanking
- shield tanking
- speed tanking
I don't want to train caldari or gallente, it's too long for me, esp guns.
it seems like you spend more time on quickfit worriying about your precious dps than out there killing things. Minmitar ships, all the ones you are slagging off, do a very good job at killing things in my experience. Yes a myrm can do more damage - but it relies totally on drones. No Megas do not have a higher alpha than minnie ships, to name a few points where you are mistaken. Stop running the numbers in quickfit and play the game.
i do and people are not flying matar ships and the reasons are obvious. i don't complain but when people come up with the nerf matar this or that i start to speak up. it's always the same, 'matar are fine'. if you want to start seeing the same number of buff this or that matar thing posts that you see with all other races, just keep post the nerfs.
dude switch-off autoreply and read what other write before you reply...its not about minmatar nerving here. its about speed in general and the eve community asjusting to it in simply using one shiptype (so you understand it no shipname) of one race more and more.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Sahwoolo Etoophie ([email protected])
Fury Website |
MITSUK0
|
Posted - 2007.09.03 17:46:00 -
[42]
There is nothing stopping you training minmatar..
Also I can remember when EVERYONE!!!1111oneone was flying close range blaster boats and I am sure that older players than me can remmeber a time when all the various styles of combat where FOTM.
The trouble is rather than getting a counter the forum losers whine until it gets nerfed and yet another tactical element of eve is lost.
EVE is a game of rock paper scissors, if you only train for rock then expect to get wtfowned by people who trained paper.
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dor amwar
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.09.03 18:01:00 -
[43]
Originally by: el toppolino
dude switch-off autoreply and read what other write before you reply...its not about minmatar nerving here. its about speed in general and the eve community asjusting to it in simply using one shiptype (so you understand it no shipname) of one race more and more.
dude ... who made you forum police? i was replying to the post above talking about the 'awesome' minnie ships. i disagree, they don't match up to their peers and require more skills to fit.
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Sanaa LaVry
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Posted - 2007.09.03 18:07:00 -
[44]
catching a Crow is just as hard as catching a Sabre, so the OP is a whiner 
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