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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Bein Glorious
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.05 23:25:00 -
[31]
page 2 snypa |
Yggdrassill Yeltsin
The Greater Goon
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Posted - 2007.09.06 00:07:00 -
[32]
This is a fantastic idea and long overdue.
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Maraude Fury
Minmatar Shadow Of The Light R i s e
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Posted - 2007.09.06 00:07:00 -
[33]
I like the idea of a personal Killmail API key, as well as a Corp level one, and an alliance level one.
Example.
Player X just wants to track his/her personal stats. Their API key is input into a EveMonKill app, and they can see graphs of their wins/losses/costs, most used weapons, and so on.
Or
CEO of QYZ Corp has a tab in the Corp menu that allows each member to put in their API key. This allows the corp and it's members to view a Corp level killboard, with graphs, costs, trends and so on.
Then the CEO of QYZ corp puts their Corps single API key into their alliance's Killboard tab, allowing all it's members to view the status of QYZ corp's kills/loss's and so on.
And finally, QYZ's alliance can put an alliance level API key into a public killboard where everyone can view it. Or have it be part of a CCP ran killboard.
This kind of a tiered system would allow each member to exclude themselves from the killboards if they so choose. Or each corp, or even each Alliance.
I'm all for this. Though at this point, I'd simply be happy with an overhaul of the current Killmail system.
Maraude Fury CEO: Shadow Of The Light .SOL.
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Lucky 8
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.09.06 00:51:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Rhaven HEH most played this game cause it was FUN not to I am better then you, ect, ect. Killmails are what they are and should stay what they are as a volentary If you wan tto post or not and if your corp/alliance even wants to have a killoard. I was in AXE before it had a kill board and the reason taht I heard taht Steelrat didn't want one was so ppl dont start fighting about who is better then who ect within the corp ect. I have a kill board for my corp cause I like to track where ppl are and suchwhen I am not on. I also tell them post your loses along with your kills. The one thing that I do is is I have only one or tow that thank, Oh I got more kills then you ect ect ect. when sure ok you have more kills or are on more kill mails. In eve there are alot of factors on successful raids ect one being the cov op pilot that almost never gets in on the kill mails or the dictor that drops a bubble and is not set up for killing anything. Tracking stats is a lot more then a kill mail or ranking ppl above others because of kill mails. The Team taht makes it so those ppl can get the kill mails is more of what eve is about. You can do solo and get a bunch of kill mails you can go and blab and get a bunch of kill mails does it make you anybetter then the other either way? My feelings is no as long as you are having fun is all that matters and if I can do something to make EVE more fun for the ppl in my corp great and for those that dont want to pvp that mine or mission run fine that is what makes eve fun for them and others. Last I know CCP's data base could tell you how many of what is made in production ect and I am sure that it can tell a whole lot more, but Why to make ppls E-peen greater to make the game more unfun for some and more fun for others. There are so many different things in EVE to do that a stats page would be huge just for ppl to see how they rank against other pvper other industrealist ect. As much as ppl say carebears go away if you think about it if it wasn't for carebears you wouldn't have a ship in EVE. If you didn't have pvp the industrealist wouldn't have ppl to sell ships to. It is a circle taht continues round and roundand part of the charm of eve to most ppl.
Gave up at the second H sorry. --
Originally by: Nicho Void This thread is like a chum slick for forum alt trolls.
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Riley Craven
Caldari Copacetic Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.06 01:24:00 -
[35]
I have a simple solution for the people that think this would be a bad idea...
Make it non compulsary.
Your arguement flies out the window then.
Its just like facebook, or myspace, I can have my pages as open or as closed as I want them to be. There should be no reason CCP cant code simple controls for such thing.
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Andargor theWise
Collateral Damage Unlimited Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.06 03:27:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Andargor theWise on 06/09/2007 03:27:08
To the API people and those believe it should be voluntary, what happens if you get killed by someone that elects to have the stats public?
You will still appear, whatever your choice. - Got grief?
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darkfuntime
Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.09.06 07:26:00 -
[37]
Erotic Irony you allway had interesting ideas.I like your idea here too [/url] |
Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.06 07:56:00 -
[38]
I absolutely agree with the OP. Highscores, rankings, statistics etc. would defenitely be a great and valuable addition to the game. Universal killboards or personal statistics on kills/losses etc. would get a lot of extra people to figth in order to increase the stats.
And those who are against stats/scores are plain stupid imho, as the means of comparison are the basics for competition. Just have a look on rl: in evry sports, from soccer to chess there are highscores and rankings, there are even rankings for the richest, like the forbes lists. To get better in rankings is one of the things that create passion in games, a strong flair of competition that is healthy for eve.
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Jordan Musgrat
Convergent Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.09.06 09:47:00 -
[39]
I strongly disagree. Maybe make an API function that automatically sends kms to a server, but beyond that, your killmail system is perfect imo. -----------
Primary is family values, secondary is 0.0... |
JeanPaul Sartre
26th of July Movement
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Posted - 2007.09.06 11:55:00 -
[40]
Edited by: JeanPaul Sartre on 06/09/2007 11:58:23
Originally by: Riley Craven I have a simple solution for the people that think this would be a bad idea...
Make it non compulsary.
Your arguement flies out the window then.
Its just like facebook, or myspace<snip>
STOP! right there. Thanks.
There are plenty of ways one can develop a reputation in eve as being a skilled pilot that you really should watch out for, without having a complete graph and chart of that players available stats, be it compulsory or not. (Alliances will want stats turned on if there is such a feature).
I can name a dozen pilots or more that everyone watches for in intel channels. That is a much better goal to acheive than a Kill /Death ratio of 69.56% or some other meaningless statistic.
Edit: spelling.
--
Quote: If a victory is told in detail, one can no longer distinguish it from a defeat.
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isAzmodeus
The Seven
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Posted - 2007.09.06 19:15:00 -
[41]
I wouldn't mind seeing daily/weekly/monthly kill/loss summaries for ship types, but if its open to everyone, restrict some of the information. Allow pilots to opt out of having their name listed, and don't reveal ship modules.
If nothing else, it would provide an overview of alliance/corp kill/losses every day or week without giving an unneccessary level of intel.
Originally by: CCP Sharkbait we are screwed. Quote:
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CrispyKritters
Caldari GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.09.06 19:22:00 -
[42]
We should also get sound files for the eve client announcing when someone makes double, triple, and multiple kills.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.06 19:25:00 -
[43]
But then how will I show off my uber EvE trading skills? My gunnery skills are to die from, but if you live near me chances are you've sold me stuff or bought it from me and then sold it back at a discount!
Can we have a "Trade" killboard too?
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Fortior
STK Scientific M. PIRE
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Posted - 2007.09.06 19:43:00 -
[44]
Probably been said before, but here are some possible things you can do to make it 'safer'.
First of all you can check a box named "Make my Kill stats public". If it has been checked, anyone can click your bio and see a nice statboard. If it remains unchecked, the link isn't there. PVP-corps can now accurately check an applicants record and sift through the people they don't want for instance.
A statboard for entire corps and alliance can easily be built and made available. Even if someone wants their personal stats to be hidden they can still be shown in the corp board by just adding them together without pointing out specific pilots. Since the data is personal it can also accurately show the stats of the corp in its current form - corpmembers who leave take their own killstats with them as they leave the corp, removing any inflated numbers. It can also show the stats of a corp during a specific period of time by adding all the stats connected to the corp during that same specific period of time.
There really is some potential to an 'official' killboard stat-tracker and the public can finally see through the propaganda and defunct killboard policies and see how a conflict finally ended in terms of losses.
Also, to prevent any "F5 intel gathering" any info could easily be delayed 6 hours or so before being made available.
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Yakia TovilToba
Halliburton Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.06 20:22:00 -
[45]
Originally by: JeanPaul Sartre
STOP! right there. Thanks.
There are plenty of ways one can develop a reputation in eve as being a skilled pilot that you really should watch out for, without having a complete graph and chart of that players available stats, be it compulsory or not. (Alliances will want stats turned on if there is such a feature).
I can name a dozen pilots or more that everyone watches for in intel channels. That is a much better goal to acheive than a Kill /Death ratio of 69.56% or some other meaningless statistic.
Edit: spelling.
You said it yourself, there are plenty ways. Graphs/stats/rankings would not hinder that dozen pilots having a certain reputation and developed skills, so that people have to watch out for them. Just caus there are statistics, that would not change their reputation, right ? And if the statistics are meaningless for you, why do you care ? For some they mean something and the "reputation" you get from them would be of a diffrent kind than that of that dozen, so i don't see a conflict with what you want and what statistics have to offer.
For the sake of privacy i agree that statistics or listing in ranking should be optional, like some suggested below, people should be able to turn it visible/invisible/on/off like you do with audio e.g.
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BalZ
Gallente RONA Deepspace
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Posted - 2007.09.06 22:54:00 -
[46]
Originally by: darkfuntime Erotic Irony you allway had interesting ideas.I like your idea here too
agreed
they need to do way instain mother?! ________
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Ze4K DK
Gallente Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.06 23:14:00 -
[47]
Originally by: BalZ
Originally by: darkfuntime Erotic Irony you allway had interesting ideas.I like your idea here too
agreed
they need to do way instain mother?!
who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?
And yup the idea is cool... Eve Wars IVtw: Return of the EI?
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Donblas D'Celeste
Gallente Einherjar Rising
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Posted - 2007.09.07 03:42:00 -
[48]
CCP needs to be careful about the amount of ANY data they let us access. APIs are neat to track **** and all, but give everyone perfect market/kill/whatever information and then suddenly there's much less to work for. Why develop complex business plans when anyone can go and download a perfect market utility that will give them control over a region? Why give perfect kill data and remove the fun of ambiguity? It is a line that CCP has, so far, walked upon pretty well.
Allowing us to access and manipulate personal information is one thing, giving us perfect, god-like information about the galaxy as a whole is another.
Also, when you ask about such information, ask yourself: is this really benefitting the game, or do you just want to make more ISK or have a silly way to flaunt your e-skill?
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Droewa
Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion
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Posted - 2007.09.07 11:33:00 -
[49]
I gotta sign this
10/10 post!!! . . . |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.07 11:38:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Taurequis Personally,
I think this obsession with killmails kills the spirit and true beauty of eve.
Scrap them and let pilots be known for their performance infront of their peers. Not some internet e-peen competition of little relation to actual skill.
Taur
I agree.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:53:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Raem
Outsourcing killmails to a separate database is something CCP really needs to do, because it would open up for so much more than simple corp killmail tracking.
Preferably, I'd like to see these killmails accessible by killboards like Griefwatch, i.e. an alliance might itself have an API key it would register to allow external killboards access to the information. The benefit, of course, is an automatic killboard that might have the option of more extensive analysis of killmails, trends and all that.
That said, corps and alliances need their own API key... please let this be the next step. Export of trade fluctuations in separate outposts, or overall trade volume of all players in the corp/alliance would be enormously beneficial to certain people. Oh hey, look, that stockmarket we always wanted?
I'll admit I'm no expert on API functionality but as Raem suggests, the possibilities go beyond egotism. Let's assume I want to recruit either Raem, NTRabbit or Tyrrax--they all claim to be pvp gods but I can only chose one. Do I ask them to supply a handful of different kb links and 100 words on why dictors are useful? Ofcourse not, without the sorting and completeness implied by a public killboard I'm wasting my time.
How will I know the record is complete for example if they are all good pvpers but Tyrrax doesn't post his capital losses and NTRabbit can't post some of his mails because the rats got them or the kb hosting them is no longer live? Public killboard in this sense is an immensely useful asset not only for recruiting but player evaluating progress, especially as corps join and leave alliances.
I would love to be able open the kb, enter a player as well a start date and an end date and see their performance--I think such a tool would be great for finding the diamonds in the rough or looking for consistantly successful groups of pvpers. I would theorize that it may give alot more coherence and direction to the many alliances that tout themselves as a pvp or merc alliance too.
Was SengH flying command ships in E.R.A? Is he still doing it BOS? Statistically, is my interceptor pilot a better tackler now than he was eight weeks? A public kb would give you a better answer the self-serving, or exaggerated answer most players will offer of themselves. How much weight you put into said data is up to you naturally. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Riley Craven I have a simple solution for the people that think this would be a bad idea...
Make it non compulsary.
Your arguement flies out the window then.
Its just like facebook, or myspace, I can have my pages as open or as closed as I want them to be. There should be no reason CCP cant code simple controls for such thing.
I strongly disagree with this. If you've made a character, you by definition have an entry on the board and there is no privacy filter as it would defeat the point. The board would theoretically be on a 24 hour timer much like role resignation, jump clones and outpost deployment.
As I said, if you're worried about your losses, join the club, the threat of loss is supposed to be real, either play smart, join a smart corp or recognize that everyone dies. The anxiety that you can't have an absolutely sterling record is silly. Surely your time in Bob taught you that much?
Moreover your post strikes at another point, for those at the extremes: those who don't pvp at all, this change will matter little as they play with a slightly different set of "victory conditions". Similarly, for the religiously pvp nuts, War Bear, Vily, et al, they will most likely obssess a little more but on the whole play just as seriously as before. The greatest impact of a public killboard will be the average alliance player, the empire player and the low sec roamers, all players who fall in the middle of the spectrum. It is they who may not be as savvy but nonetheless want more structured gameplay and can craft a kill history as a means to enter more established corps or start their own.
___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:54:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Chirinako
Originally by: Gilbert Drillerson Eve isnt about killmails, it is abuot a lot of other things really.... I w=uld be disapointed if CCP spent one second on this... Lag is a MUCH MUCH bigger issue, so is new stuff like ships, balance changes and making mondane stuff in eve easyer.
As it is right now, we have a number of player created killboard applications, those are fun and good, why not just stay with that.
^what he said. Nothing else to add really.
Well this one seems to be a common criticism that is really saying nothing at all. Eve is about other things than competition--is that why the death penalty is so lax and nothing is finite?
Eve is about ruthless success not assaulting Onyxia's lair and taking a screenshot of your guild mates when all is said and done. If you say that eve is about building a player empire then I'll agree, corps can set standings to alliances, export transactions and enhance their character sheet and wallet and track their progress every step of the way. But when it comes to pvp, its all bombast with very few realistic means to verify many kills.
Gilbert, you also mention that somethings should be made "easyer," and on this point I disagree as well. Part of Eve's charm is it's masochistic brutality and the permanence of many actions. Because of the weight of our actions, a public killboard would be an even more excellent cradle to grave tool in the tradition of employment history and wallet transaction logs.
What wouldn't make sense is the current environment--I mean really Chirinako, who are you trying to fool when you post the system names on your mails as "classified"? ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:55:00 -
[54]
Originally by: JeanPaul Sartre
There are plenty of ways one can develop a reputation in eve as being a skilled pilot that you really should watch out for, without having a complete graph and chart of that players available stats, be it compulsory or not. (Alliances will want stats turned on if there is such a feature).
I can name a dozen pilots or more that everyone watches for in intel channels. That is a much better goal to acheive than a Kill /Death ratio of 69.56% or some other meaningless statistic.
Edit: spelling.
The question wasn't are there plenty of ways to curry favor with one group or to enlarge one's superficial reputation--the question is how can we measure combat effectiveness when all we have to go on routinely incomplete killboards? People will always behave in self interested ways, they won't post losses, smack and gloat--the public kb however offers an island of calm comparision in what is otherwise just a game of sound and fury. You would be exceptionally naive to just rely on a person's word to evaluate anything in this game, but if you insist on it, I have some shares to sell you, super cheap...
I'm sure there are boards that weigh them too heavily in favor of battleships when the corps largely fly around in vagas and recons--looking at such a board you'd get a disproportionately large stat boost because they deliberately fudged the algorithm, the public killboard would be more interested in preserving the fact of the loss rather than the trying to value of the loss. (Maybe a nice sideproject with API though!)
And as far as your dozen pilots that everyone watches out far, they are no different from anyone else in that they have no more incentive to post losses than anyone else. Can't you see that you the automation of the public killboard is a much more elegant solution to the problem measured success than trusting people, going by their word or other such fallible nonesense.
And for the record, 69% is quite poor. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.08 09:57:00 -
[55]
Thanks for the responses, props to the Danes especially.
That said, it's strange that some members of the most hardcore PVP mmo are also extremely insecure about empirical, comparative measures of success. Let me see if I can clarify some of the confusion and answer the criticism with some representative comments.
Originally by: Donblas Why develop complex business plans when anyone can go and download a perfect market utility that will give them control over a region? Why give perfect kill data and remove the fun of ambiguity? It is a line that CCP has, so far, walked upon pretty well.
You're confusing the measure of performance with the insight into actually practicing it. It is one thing to know that long limb roes are valuable in region x and y, it is certainly more difficult to practically complete the deal in a productive way. Similarly, theres positive value in preserving comparitive kill stats--I know UDIE uses damp ravens for example but I don't have the corp mates or the skill with coverts to place, and micro manage the field like they do. Surely you'd agree there's a gulf between knowing and doing and that in Eve there are many ways to accomplish the same task with different costs and builds?
I'd even argue that gate camping and "stat padding" in places like EC-P and M-O are so popular is because of the absence of real ways to compare performance, so in the absence of real tools to tell the difference between 0utbreak and Rens 911, corps just try to compensate quality with sheer volume of killmails.
Moreover even if you know exactly what I fly and where I like to camp, for example, there's no guarantee you will still win. The dialectical nature of Eve combat is, remember, in its tradeoffs. Your argument would be a little more salient if certain ships were absolutely invincible or no contest against others but that's not the case--the combination of speed, range and signature (ontop of ambushes and pilot error make for more unpredictable fighting than you're willing to allow.
Quote: Also, when you ask about such information, ask yourself: is this really benefitting the game, or do you just want to make more ISK or have a silly way to flaunt your e-skill?
The beauty of this system as I emphasized in the second post is that information itself isn't partisan, if I benefit so will you and every other pvper who accepts that knowledge is an asset and a virtue. While you have to be selfish to some extent to accomplish anything in Eve, this isn't about my selfishness or ego. I think you're ultimately thinking about this the wrong way--the question is how can we make goal based gameplay richer not how can I antagonize you on a forum? A public killboard is the answer because as far as answering the question of who did what and where it doesn't embelish or tell too much, just the facts.
Right now the game lacks a real competative urgency. I have no way to verifiying the majority of destructive activities and as such I have to ask: What is a game what has nothing even resembling victory conditions?
How would you feel if we removed price history? Would that make you richer? Stronger? It still takes smarts to make isk and fight well but to even do those things you need the tools to evaluate how you're doing. I am asking for those tools. ___ Junkie Beverage: i use your tears to cyno in my laughter
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Sister Impotentata
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.09.10 17:52:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Sister Impotentata on 10/09/2007 17:53:48 Edit: sorry didn't realize what forum I had been linked into. TANSTAAFL |
Mikelio Raijan
Sulithus
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Posted - 2007.09.10 18:31:00 -
[57]
All for implants on podmails and rigs on shipmails, even an API that allows people to auto update their kill boards, but hell no for an 'EvE armoury' anyone who reads/read the already crappy community WoW forums will be fully aware of the rubbish this has caused to a much less competitive game.
People **** talk each other about their arena rankings and claim people with lower rankings arn't allowed to reply in their threads/laugh at them, even if they are just doing arena with friends for fun. It's total bull**** and i'd really hate for such a system to appear in eve. Oh and then there is the frankly obvious ability to see peoples setups and active locations from an easy to read browser. Why bother with intell when you can just fire up IE and know everything someone has flown for the past year.
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Erotic Irony
0bsession
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Posted - 2007.09.10 18:47:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Erotic Irony on 10/09/2007 18:47:34
Originally by: Mikelio Raijan hell no for an 'EvE armoury' anyone who reads/read the already crappy community WoW forums will be fully aware of the rubbish this has caused to a much less competitive game.
Slippery slope argument, be gone.
A half dozen posters have already explained why your point has no argumentative weight whatsoever given the benefits of a public killboard versus the current costs. Remember that a killboard that isn't accurate defeats the purpose of the project to begin with.
Oh look I did too:
Originally by: Erotic Irony
Right now the game lacks a real competative urgency. I have no way to verifiying the majority of destructive activities and as such I have to ask: What is a game what has nothing even resembling victory conditions?
How would you feel if we removed price history? Would that make you richer? Stronger? It still takes smarts to make isk and fight well but to even do those things you need the tools to evaluate how you're doing. I am asking for those tools.
Quote:
People **** talk each other about their arena rankings and claim people with lower rankings arn't allowed to reply in their threads/laugh at them, even if they are just doing arena with friends for fun. It's total bull**** and i'd really hate for such a system to appear in eve.
Let people talk all they want. Who cares, the function of any game is to compete and win. If you don't want to compete at the highest levels or compete at all that's fine but why deny the tools to everyone else because you're insecure? Do you really think your rivals have sterling records or is it more likely that they aren't posting their losses either? I addressed this exact point two posts ago: for the majority of players the public kb is precisely the impetus to try pvp.
Quote: Oh and then there is the frankly obvious ability to see peoples setups and active locations from an easy to read browser. Why bother with intell when you can just fire up IE and know everything someone has flown for the past year.
Well, it obvious you didn't read any of the thread, just felt hysterically angry and hurriedly posted some negative comments. Bravo.
This just in: because individuals are self-interested, and because the mess of kbs is voluntary and largely unpoliced, losses aren't posted and algorithms regularly skewed to create unrealistic pictures of fights. That means kbs are unreliable and we need a system that logs it all because players are too cowardly to do it themselves.
I've responded to every criticism you've made in depth in my previous posts so I'll give you some time to read up or stop crying. ___ Support Killmail Overhaul
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Rehen
Sulithus
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Posted - 2007.09.10 19:13:00 -
[59]
There is NO need for somthing like this, I like watching Alliances fight over thier poor kill to death ratio's its all about properganda.
I havent used kill borads in a very long time i found it was a rly easy tool to find out everything you needed to know about a target, I cant have people finding out about my Dual650mm Art sheild tanking apoc set'ups now (copyright2004).
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Mikelio Raijan
Sulithus
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Posted - 2007.09.10 19:22:00 -
[60]
Don't start saying that someone who disagrees with you should 'stop crying', you started this thread in a discussion forum and oddly enough, not everyone will agree with you. There are people who believe EvE is CS in space and there are people who just want to play and have fun, without their losses being paraded around in front of them. I've been in my fair share of alliances and done the whole posting all kills/losses on a board, did it allow the corporations to track progress on battles better? Yes. Did it make EvE more fun for me personally? No. I value my privacy highly and I don't think any corporation I ever apply to should be able to look at some K/D ratio stats just to decide if I can join.
I know your telling me that current boards are inaccurate, but seeing as I barely want killmails in the first place what could convince me to have an 'EvE armoury' forced upon me and accept it?
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