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Veryez	Posted - 2007.09.08 04:08:00 - [61] Originally by: Benn Helmsman If you in a small gang fight, you use more webber then painter (if any), because it will be most likely at a distance you can use them. In a fleet fight, you use more painter and few webs, because it will most likely be at a range where you cant web anything without moving far distances and expose yourself. Target painter are usefull for missiles and turrets alike. Well and for the use with dreads in gang: Since structures moved outside the shield they are targets for dreads, but they are to small to hit them with full damage without painter. No recon can really tank and do its job, it doesnt work. DPS on projectiles is very nice, especially because it can choose damage type to some degrees (but most do kinetic/explosive, which is extremly nice due to the fact that most pvp ships tank armor). With an optimal of 45k and falloff of 90k, it would have to be a fairly close fleet fight (that's t2 or best t1 painter with max skills). More likely you'll be hunting for nano ships and/or webbing any tacklers. And you misunderstood me, the recon's job is to reduce DPS comming into the group, therefore helping the whole group tank better. (ECM prevents locks (when it works....), Sensor boosters make enemies come closer and take a long time to lock, and disrupters make turrets miss more). Only Minmatar lacks this ability. Finally your last comment is not really accurate, t2 ammo is all explosive/kinetic, but the best t1 ammo is either thermal/kinetic or EM/explosive (which is actually a pretty bad combination since almost 1/2 of your damage hits a high resist). I like to think of it as "with projectiles, some part of your damage is assured to hit the enemies highest resists....."
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.08 04:20:00 - [62] Even if you dont want to use target painter, the second bonus on the minmatar recon is still very powerfull. Adding another strong one (like the gallente ones have) would make them to good. Amarr got TD (limited use) and cap warfare (very usefull) Minmatar got TP (limited use) and web bonus (very usefull) Caldari got ECM (very usefull) Gallente got SD (very usefull) and scrambler bonus (very usefull) [its gallente what do you expect?]
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.08 04:24:00 - [63] Originally by: Veryez Originally by: Benn Helmsman If you in a small gang fight, you use more webber then painter (if any), because it will be most likely at a distance you can use them. In a fleet fight, you use more painter and few webs, because it will most likely be at a range where you cant web anything without moving far distances and expose yourself. Target painter are usefull for missiles and turrets alike. Well and for the use with dreads in gang: Since structures moved outside the shield they are targets for dreads, but they are to small to hit them with full damage without painter. No recon can really tank and do its job, it doesnt work. DPS on projectiles is very nice, especially because it can choose damage type to some degrees (but most do kinetic/explosive, which is extremly nice due to the fact that most pvp ships tank armor). With an optimal of 45k and falloff of 90k, it would have to be a fairly close fleet fight (that's t2 or best t1 painter with max skills). More likely you'll be hunting for nano ships and/or webbing any tacklers. And you misunderstood me, the recon's job is to reduce DPS comming into the group, therefore helping the whole group tank better. (ECM prevents locks (when it works....), Sensor boosters make enemies come closer and take a long time to lock, and disrupters make turrets miss more). Only Minmatar lacks this ability. Finally your last comment is not really accurate, t2 ammo is all explosive/kinetic, but the best t1 ammo is either thermal/kinetic or EM/explosive (which is actually a pretty bad combination since almost 1/2 of your damage hits a high resist). I like to think of it as "with projectiles, some part of your damage is assured to hit the enemies highest resists....." Well maybe you should note that SD and TD have same (SD) or shorter (TD) range then TP.
Mirarj	Posted - 2007.09.08 05:23:00 - [64] you can run around in circles all day talking about what EW should be added/changed to minnie. sure they have their weaknesses and such, but knowing them and not letting them be exploited makes you a better pilot that the fgt shooting you. something that does need to be changed is their actual strong point. i dont beleive that minmatar are speed tankers. if that were true, a majority of ships would have the 5% velocity bonus. their ships swap between shield and armor tanking, which is a total *** for low sp characters, because if they specialise it basically halves the ships they fly (more towards to bc/bs side of things. if your getting hit in a frig your dead already.) projectiles are kinda balanced with their dps cos they dont use cap to run - that said, the other races get their usage bonuses on their ships so it kind of nullifies that to an extent. i cant fly a recon yet, but its a priority for me. i think people forget that the web is EW aswell. and its very very powerful bonus. with a t1 web you can get ~30km web range with recon IV (approximation =P) that alone will make your heavy hitters smack those tacklers hard. put a tp or 2 on it and bam, dead inty/dictor/cruiser. thing is as soon as the dev make a change, some **** will pipe up saying "ffs now youve made them op qq qq qq" know your role and do it. i dont think this is a big enough issue to warrant the devs changing anything. ofcourse i am totally for buffing minnie, dont get me wrong. maybe some more dps for my t2 vulcans?...
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.09.08 05:43:00 - [65] Missile and projectile ships can still shoot back against the Curse and Pilgrim. Let's just leave some variation in races instead of wanting everything to be absolutely equal? --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Captain Schmungles Caldari Freelancing Corp Confederation of Independent Corporations	Posted - 2007.09.08 05:43:00 - [66] Ishina, Fantastic sig. I love that show.
Ruciza	Posted - 2007.09.08 13:35:00 - [67] Edited by: Ruciza on 08/09/2007 13:37:01 Originally by: Ath Amon this is simply not true, artillery as it was alredy said many times in this post have the lowest dps (by a good margin)... lowest dps, lowest range, worst tracking... fastanstic and powerfull weapon system as you can see. [...] Said many times, always wrong. More Alpha = more DPS in the first volleys. Artillery also has more DPS than Autocannons in the circumstances of hit and run. Due to range. What I was talking about, in response to Nian Banks, who wondered why Minmatar Recons have webber bonus, is that the Minmatar fleet as a whole is able to employ tactics that resemble a Vaga gang. For ships that don't have a falloff bonus (like minnie t1 and many t2), you can achieve the most dps with artillery, if you can make them track. Target painters and the rest of the support make them track. They provide the opportunity to do damage while still having the speed advantage. And it is indeed MUCH more speed if you do it correctly, ie don't armor tank but use the lowslots for speed mods and damage mods. All Minmatar ships are shield tankers btw, although some are more shield tankers than others. Hehe I think now I've completely lost most people.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.09.08 15:22:00 - [68] i will agree that alpha = dps if it had a huge dmg and a refire of 20-30s but that is not the case as they have marginally more alpha and are slower, if you look at cumulative dmg curve is quite clear that and as you don't jump in, fire 1 volley and jump out but anyway you are going to stay there as long as possible to deal the most amount of damage so is quite clear that even if with a volley or 2 arty can do some nice dmg the dps is so low that is not worth for a "full incursion" is also interesting to note that the "time of the ride" is actually the one needed by defenders to react efficently... this timer can be influenced by a distance advantage or good ew... things that, as said in the other post, minnies have not so nope, minnies are not a hit and run race, as basically all other races perform better at that... (caldari with 250km missiles (good dps) or extreme range or rails on rokhs, amarr with abaddon huge dps and tank, gallente with a bit better dps/range and eventually damps) Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.09.08 22:12:00 - [69] Hrm this is getting serious, firstly we started with minmatar ewar ships having a sub-par ewar bonus. Then we discussed the problem and decided that the target painters were infact to blamr. Now people are arguing that they are or aren't fine. After that, somewhere the points became lost and we are now discussing what the minmatar combat style is (my fault!) and how minmatar should only use their low slots for dps & speed and shield tank. (someone elses fault (still its an appealing thought!)) Now we are left with the big question as to how minmatar should fight and why we deserve the worst dps, cap & tank in the game. [whine] Basically the only reason people think its fair is because we have one ship, a certain hac that is so fast it cannot be hit. Apparently we are a race with only one ship The Vagabond and all other minmatar ships should be inferion. [/whine] So back to the topic, if target painters actively increased a ships dps in a noticeable amount then it would be truly something atleast most matari could call their real ewar.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.08 23:24:00 - [70] Painters are crap on anything other than the bellicose, huginn, rapier, but why bother fitting them when you can fit damps that are good on any ship. Painter is a laser designator, so why the relatively close range nature. They bloat up the target nicely, but don't break lock, reduce lock range or disrupt turrets, so increase their effective range for snipe support. Tempest and Maelstom with 2 tracking comp II and Tremor L have an optimal of about 135-140 with 42-44km falloff, but craptastic tracking so a painter that can bloat that target 150-200km out is necessary for consistent hits. Sniping a Carrier at 140km and missing 20-30% of the shots (1 tracking comp II and Tremor L loaded) is pretty damn sad, but that's Minmatar for you. 1400mm T2 Arties have the poorest tracking in the game, then nailed even more loading Tremor. Boost Painter range and Sig Bloat to help out the Minmatar Snipers out there. Idea for Tracking Links -have them reduce the signature of the guns themselves for better accuracy. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Veryez	Posted - 2007.09.09 03:07:00 - [71] Originally by: Nian Banks Hrm this is getting serious, firstly we started with minmatar ewar ships having a sub-par ewar bonus. Then we discussed the problem and decided that the target painters were infact to blamr. Now people are arguing that they are or aren't fine. The heart of the problem is that many people can't (or won't) differentiate between EW and Recon ships. Yes Minmatar Recons are good, not because Minmatar have high DPS (they don't), not because they are a hit and run race (no more than others, and in reality below most) and lastly not because they all speed tank so well (only 2 combat ships get speed bonuses). No Minmatar Recons are good because minmatar ships perform very well when they can control the range of the fight and their recons are the best at it. This doesn't change the fact that Target Painters are the worst form of EW by far. Sure there are some specific instances where Target painters can help, but for general use they aren't worth carrying. Something should be done about them to be consistent with other forms of EW. I would rather they be made the second form of EW for Caldari Recons, and Minmatar Recons be given a more useful bonus to use. Obviously any change in ship's bonuses MUST be balanced to prevent the ship from becomming overpowered. So stop talking about recon ships, this is about EW, and the obvious fact that Target Painters are far and away the WORST form of EW in the game.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.09 05:35:00 - [72] Come on CCP... Rigs that improves the effectiveness of Sensor Damps (already overpowered imho), Tracking Disruptors, and ECM by 10% per T1 rig, but you can't put in a rig for painters??? WTF is the love? THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Manal Meintam	Posted - 2007.09.09 07:14:00 - [73] Well since we currently have: Gallente - Sensor Dampening Caldari - Jamming Amarr - Turret Tracking disruption Minmatar - Target painting If you were looking for a change to the Minmatar EW style (which changes target painting to a all race EW style) the one thing missing is Missile Disruption(Tracking/explosion velocity/Target navigation prediction whatever is the turret tracking equivalent). This would solve the problem that defender missiles have with the new missile speeds and would add a much needed counter to the game. Just a idea to throw out there since this is the one EW type truly missing from the game.
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.09.09 08:54:00 - [74] Originally by: Manal Meintam Well since we currently have: Gallente - Sensor Dampening Caldari - Jamming Amarr - Turret Tracking disruption Minmatar - Target painting If you were looking for a change to the Minmatar EW style (which changes target painting to a all race EW style) the one thing missing is Missile Disruption(Tracking/explosion velocity/Target navigation prediction whatever is the turret tracking equivalent). This would solve the problem that defender missiles have with the new missile speeds and would add a much needed counter to the game. Just a idea to throw out there since this is the one EW type truly missing from the game. A missile disrupotor? That would / should have been a gallente ewar module, not exactly screaming at me to be a minmatar ewar. I am fine with an ewar module that improves dps instead of been a defensive module, if only it actually gave it enough umph to notice.null
Kirja R.u.S.H. Red Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.09 12:57:00 - [75] Stop trying to change game to fit your skills. If you want to damp train gallent ships, if you want to ecm train caldari. Matar recons are great in what they were meant to do.
Ath Amon	Posted - 2007.09.09 15:53:00 - [76] Originally by: Kirja Stop trying to change game to fit your skills. If you want to damp train gallent ships, if you want to ecm train caldari. Matar recons are great in what they were meant to do. in fact no one is asking to get sensor damp or ecm instead of tp, just to replace it with something usefull and in line with other EW systems... it also had been said many times that minnie recons atm are fine and the discussion is not about them, if with an eventual new ew minnie system they will become overpowered then they will be rebalanced Originally by: Diana Merris Unfortunately, rather than address the slot layout/tanking issues for Minmatar the Devs have simple declared that it makes us "versitile".
Veryez	Posted - 2007.09.09 16:41:00 - [77] Originally by: Kirja Stop trying to change game to fit your skills. If you want to damp train gallent ships, if you want to ecm train caldari. Matar recons are great in what they were meant to do. I love this responce because it really shows the whole problem. I find it rather ironic that you did not say this: Originally by: Kirja Stop trying to change game to fit your skills. If you want to damp train gallent ships, if you want to ecm train caldari. If you want to Target Paint train Matar ships. I wonder why you didn't state it like that Because maybe you, like everyone else, realize how ridiculous it would sound. It isn't about recons, it's about Target Painters
Gin Moon	Posted - 2007.09.09 17:07:00 - [78] Yup quit reading halfway through the first page, but yeah... the offlining mod mod, eh I think it's kind of a poor idea. Random mod in random slot for 10 sec? and with a hit chance? worse than trying to do damage in a pod... anyways... Min are designed to hit hard and fly fast. General rule of thumb is, break their tank before they break yours. Pretty obvious of what happens if you don't... Heck just look at the descriptions on all of their ships, something to the effect of, put as much guns on it as possible and electronics be damned. If you're going 3km/s and you put a target painter on, you'll hit a crap ton more than without one. Plus lets your BS's single shot the smaller ships that it might miss due to tracking. If you couldn't tell, I have found a new love for TP's. Sometime's it's a tough decision what to fit in the mids, but for gang ops with big ships, having 1 or 2 in the gang is a good idea. Fun stuff.
ViperVenom Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2007.09.11 04:45:00 - [79] Yarrrrrrrrrrrrrrr Bump.... Devs fix this or ill... start RPing..lol FIX TP! If this alliance fails im going back to ganking. I think im heading for -10.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.09.11 06:50:00 - [80] I'll throw in an idea, maybe even an original one, though it seems unlikely. Make "Counter-EW" the Minni EW, called something like "Electronic Warfare Supression". There's a variety of ways it could work, but the way I like best would be to have it reduce the optimum range of all EW. This would include Scrams and Webs, though the proportional effect would have to be quite a bit less on those. It would probably be the shortest range EW, and take enough cap it would be difficult to sustain. I wouldn't toss TPs out of the game, I'd just make them a general, non-racial EW. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Doffeh	Posted - 2007.09.11 07:05:00 - [81] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Well maybe you should note that SD and TD have same (SD) or shorter (TD) range then TP. And when combined they give aids. STD! Or wait.. Was this eve? runs away I swear. Every MMO has it's own language, but eve can be a bit extreme at times.

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