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Game Over: Carebears 55 - Pirates 1,268,000 (long)

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Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:15:00 - [1] Edited by: Mon Palae on 10/02/2004 22:24:34 Pirates win by invocation of the "smear" rule. DonÆt think so? LetÆs see what measures we can use: Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates Most Resources: Pirates Highest Ship Value Added among all Members: Pirates Most Space Controlled: Pirates Best at PvP: Pirates Best at Running Away: Pirates Best Ability to Stretch Game Mechanics: Pirates Best Miners: Carebears Most Profitable Miners: Carebears who payoff/work for Pirates Congratulations and well done. Now letÆs restart the game again from the beginning. That may be a little flippant and of course will never happen but to be honest the above list has zero chance of changing. No ebb and flow of power. If every non-pirate corp in the game were to unite and fight the combined might of m0o or Space Invaders and their ilk I seriously doubt they could prevail against the pirates. The pirate corpsÆ pockets are too deep. Pirates control the vast majority of space and more importantly the parts with the valuable stuff in it (in fact I am hard pressed to come up with a 0.0 non-empire region not under their sway now). Indeed, about the only space they do not control is 0.5 and above thanks to CONCORD and even CONCORD has had trouble maintaining total security (to the point of causing GMÆs to camp gates in Uber ships). And of course having made a living doing nothing but fighting other people they are really quite good at it and generally own most comers. How did it work out this way? It would be sad to assume that every decent game player in EVE chose piracy. Fact is there are plenty of competent people on all sides (and more than a fair share of morons too). I think the simplest explanation is pirates only do one thing in EVEàpirate. Other corps are focused on a multitude of things from mining and manufacturing and trade to agent missions. IÆd also wager the power players (those online 23/7) are more heavily represented in the pirate corps thus allowing for more sustained attacks on enemies or using time to their advantage (such as what happened in Fountain not too long ago). But perhaps the biggest advantage is there is no downside to playing a pirate in EVE. In theory there should beàyou make your choices in the game and take the good with the bad. In theory pirates should be unable to access Empire space but in reality this is simply not the case barring a few relatively rare examples and they generally have ALTs to take care of their business making the whole point moot. In theory pirates should have had to cope with bounty hunters chasing them around the galaxy. In reality this rarely happens due to the near impossibility of tracking someone not to mention the pooched sec status would often penalize the bounty hunterÆs sec status for getting the kill. Add to that many pirateÆs penchant for self-destructing themselves or quick-logging off their characters. In theory corps/alliances should see pirates scouting and perhaps stop them. In reality it is much more difficult for ægoodÆ corps to stop ALT spies. Pirates kill everyone not them on sight. æGoodÆ corps wonÆt touch an ALT swinging through on the assumption it might really be a new player. A favorite refrain of pirates is ôadapt or dieö. Fair enough and adapt many people did. Apparently CCP felt the adapt part was unfair to the pirates and have seen fit to hand them more of the EVE pie for some inexplicable reason with deployable warp disruptors and player controlled stations. Yes, yesàI knowàanyone can use these but who are we kidding? Who controls the vast majority of deep space where the new stations are? Who can pretty much roll over any opposition or wait till they go to bed and take those stations? Who will benefit most from those stations being there? As for deployable warp disruptors once again pirates are not fooling anyone by suggesting Carebears will get as much use from them. Certainly they will get a little use by non-pirates and will catch pirates now and again but these are clearly of biggest benefit to piratesàby far. Pirates now have a way to stop all ships at a gate and those ships have NO defense except speed. But of course now pirates are free to dump sensor boosters and the like in favor of webbers so even speed will be of dubious use. As for killing the disruptors it would take an armada (look at the specsàthe smallest is as tough as a battleshipàthe biggest will take minutes from several battleships to bring down and of course there will be , multiple disruptors at a gate). Oh yeahàthey are supposed to be expensive too but guess who can bear those costs easily and who cannot (the answer should be obvious by now). (cont.)
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:20:00 - [2] I think player controlled stations are a neat idea as are warp disruptors (in theory) but I think their implementation is poor to say the least. No doubt those who are reading comprehension challenged will flame and call me a Carebear and anything else ad hominem that is totally off topic and unhelpful. As such let me say here I am not a Carebear. I spend the vast majority of my time in 0.0 space. I run pirate blockades all the time and play cat and mouse in systems and it is fun. I get away a lot but not always (not even closeàI stopped numbering my replacement ships as it was getting too depressing). I havenÆt smack-talked a pirate once, ever, for any of it nor have I posted to the forum about how unfair a kill was (I may have ****ed about a lag death but that was directed at CCP and no doubt most PvPers have experienced that and would agree it stinks). My goal is to see EVE refined so it is fun for all playersàor at least to have all players have reasonable chances at doing most of the things EVE has to offer should they choose to do so. That does not mean it should be easy or safe. I personally feel pirates are a very necessary part of the EVE universe to give it spice and a liveliness. I just think things have gotten a bit too lopsidedàWAY too lopsided. If there were a reasonable way to rectify that then great but I do not see that there is. Flamers will flame with no need for invitation but I hope for some responses that address what I have laid out. Whether to debunk or support is fine. The main goal is to make a better EVE for all that is more fun for all including,* but not limited to, pirates.
Sally	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:22:00 - [3] yawn I don't know what game you are playing, but it must be a different one. -- Stories: #1 --
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:24:00 - [4] Edited by: Mon Palae on 10/02/2004 22:27:05 Quote: youve obv never pirated you're totally off. try again when you know what you're talking about. Ok...how am I off? What did I say that was untrue?
Eltigre	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:31:00 - [5] Quote: Edited by: Mon Palae on 10/02/2004 22:24:34 Pirates win by invocation of the "smear" rule. DonÆt think so? LetÆs see what measures we can use: Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates Most Resources: Pirates Highest Ship Value Added among all Members: Pirates Most Space Controlled: Pirates Best at PvP: Pirates Best at Running Away: Pirates Best Ability to Stretch Game Mechanics: Pirates Best Miners: Carebears Most Profitable Miners: Carebears who payoff/work for Pirates Congratulations and well done. Now letÆs restart the game again from the beginning. That may be a little flippant and of course will never happen but to be honest the above list has zero chance of changing. No ebb and flow of power. If every non-pirate corp in the game were to unite and fight the combined might of m0o or Space Invaders and their ilk I seriously doubt they could prevail against the pirates. The pirate corpsÆ pockets are too deep. Pirates control the vast majority of space and more importantly the parts with the valuable stuff in it (in fact I am hard pressed to come up with a 0.0 non-empire region not under their sway now). Indeed, about the only space they do not control is 0.5 and above thanks to CONCORD and even CONCORD has had trouble maintaining total security (to the point of causing GMÆs to camp gates in Uber ships). And of course having made a living doing nothing but fighting other people they are really quite good at it and generally own most comers. How did it work out this way? It would be sad to assume that every decent game player in EVE chose piracy. Fact is there are plenty of competent people on all sides (and more than a fair share of morons too). I think the simplest explanation is pirates only do one thing in EVEàpirate. Other corps are focused on a multitude of things from mining and manufacturing and trade to agent missions. IÆd also wager the power players (those online 23/7) are more heavily represented in the pirate corps thus allowing for more sustained attacks on enemies or using time to their advantage (such as what happened in Fountain not too long ago). But perhaps the biggest advantage is there is no downside to playing a pirate in EVE. In theory there should beàyou make your choices in the game and take the good with the bad. In theory pirates should be unable to access Empire space but in reality this is simply not the case barring a few relatively rare examples and they generally have ALTs to take care of their business making the whole point moot. In theory pirates should have had to cope with bounty hunters chasing them around the galaxy. In reality this rarely happens due to the near impossibility of tracking someone not to mention the pooched sec status would often penalize the bounty hunterÆs sec status for getting the kill. Add to that many pirateÆs penchant for self-destructing themselves or quick-logging off their characters. In theory corps/alliances should see pirates scouting and perhaps stop them. In reality it is much more difficult for ægoodÆ corps to stop ALT spies. Pirates kill everyone not them on sight. æGoodÆ corps wonÆt touch an ALT swinging through on the assumption it might really be a new player. A favorite refrain of pirates is ôadapt or dieö. Fair enough and adapt many people did. Apparently CCP felt the adapt part was unfair to the pirates and have seen fit to hand them more of the EVE pie for some inexplicable reason with deployable warp disruptors and player controlled stations. Yes, yesàI knowàanyone can use these but who are we kidding? Who controls the vast majority of deep space where the new stations are? Who can pretty much roll over any opposition or wait till they go to bed and take those stations? Who will benefit most from those stations being there? As for deployable warp disruptors once again pirates are not fooling anyone by suggesting Carebears will get as much use from them. Certainly they will get a little use by non-pirates and will catch pirates now and again but these are clearly of biggest benefit to piratesàby far. Pirates now have a way to stop all ships at a gate and those ships have NO defense except speed. But of course now pirates are free to dump sensor boosters and the like in favor of webbers so even speed will be of dubious use. As for killing the disruptors it would take an armada (look at the specsàthe smallest is as tough as a battleshipàthe biggest will take minutes from several battleships to bring down and of course there will be , multiple disruptors at a gate). Oh yeahàthey are supposed to be expensive too but guess who can bear those costs easily and who cannot (the answer should be obvious by now). (cont.) edited out due to trolling -kristina. SWEET routinely sells BPC's in Sing Laison and Essence Regions.
pooti	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:31:00 - [6] Edited by: pooti on 10/02/2004 22:33:21 Quote: Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates Most Resources: Pirates Highest Ship Value Added among all Members: Pirates false. the large mining/production corps have far greater assets than any pirate corp. most pirates I know live ship to ship & often need to borrow money when insurance comes around. When I was in Red Corsairs we seldom had more than 5m in corp wallet and no individual member had more than a few mil. We didn't have ship reserves either. Quote: Most Space Controlled: Pirates afaik there is no pirate controlled space. maybe one or two chokeholds, but they're frequently overrun. Quote: Best at PvP: Pirates Best at Running Away: Pirates yes. Quote: Best Ability to Stretch Game Mechanics: Pirates sure. shooting outside of sentry range vs. afk grid mining ark. which has less risk and more profit? Quote: Best Miners: Carebears Most Profitable Miners: Carebears who payoff/work for Pirates Yes/sorta. Any mining group that bothers getting a decent security force can be insanely profitable. But, most security forces are alliances and such, not pirates. I can only think of about four pirate corps that have any pull at all in Eve, whereas I can think of at least two dozen non-pirate groups and just as many strictly anti-pirate groups. Anyway you don't really seem to know what you're talking about. How much time have you spent pirating?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:38:00 - [7] Let me be the first to say: ROFLMFAO You're so off it's hilarious. "Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates"... cough Techell cough TTi cough Xanadu cough Everlasting Vendetta cough. "Most resources: Pirates"? Err...till m0o and FE went avisting, Fountain was Fountain Alliance space. Stain was Stain Alliance space. Even Venal and Pure Blind, NVA territory, had a value if you know what you're looking for. "Most Space COntrolled: Pirates"? Err...most pirates try not to settle down in any one location. No point making a bullseye and telling the world where it is. "Highest Ship Value Added among all Members: Pirates". Dunno how many ships m0o actually has. They don't lose them enough to really say. But they did seem to cause a lot of people to lose ships while visiting Fountain. Which were replaced from somewhere... "Best at PvP: Pirates". They do have an advantage here because they're fighting more than regular players. But not every pirate is Stavros' or Tank CEO's or drunkenmaster's caliber. Trust me on that one "Best at Running Away: Pirates"? Err...yeah. Double/triple MWDs, instajump bookmarks, safespots. "Best Ability to Stretch Game Mechanics: Pirates"? Pirates?!? You do know that it was never intended to mine into a jetcan right? Gods...haven't even made it 1/4th the way through your post. Honestly, they're great at catchphrases. So... Have a cookieÖ End YourselfÖ kthnxb1!Ö I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
pooti	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:38:00 - [8] and if you think that capturable stations and deployable warp scramblers are going to help pirates your clueless the only pirate corp that still pirates that i can see holding a station is space invaders. the other bigges have all apparently gone legit (fe) or could give ****all about controlling one (us) personally im somewhat terrified of the scramblers. im almost always outnumbered and rarely stay in a spot long enough for them to be of any use. the alliances, on the other hand.
pooti	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:40:00 - [9] i took "best at running away" to be a flamish "best at not dying" 'cause yeah we're generally good at that
Diggy	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:44:00 - [10] I think someone should calm down a little bit...wow ive read lots of post on people complaining on "Pirates this and pirates that" but my god this just tops the list in my book...But im glad you got it out and im glad you think the GM's are going to do something about it...and WTF "Restart the game again from scratch"??? What is that...NEVER would happen and if it did, the game would turn out the same way...And then you would just have to write another post about something that has been said over and over and over...And im not even a pirate..Im just a player on the game that does normal stuff in empire space, and ive never complained about it...There no reason to cause nothing will be done about it...Jesus will people please quit complaining about pirates and carebears...It is part of the game! GET OVER IT! or leave
Wotok	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:44:00 - [11] I must be playing a different game. I'm playing since beta. I never pirated. I seldom mine. I got PKed one time. I'm not in a big corp. I'm making money. I am having fun. -- Wotok has no brain!
Tesol Xarto	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:45:00 - [12] is it worth reading, or is this something like: "market is dying", "players are leaving", "pirates/miners are unplayable" ???? :-D ======= WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion
pooti	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:48:00 - [13] Edited by: pooti on 10/02/2004 22:49:44 Quote: is it worth reading, or is this something like: "market is dying", "players are leaving", "pirates/miners are unplayable" ???? :-D yeah another "i'm not winning, therefore eve is in the midst of a crisis" type dealie. i think ccp has done an incredible job balancing eve in every respect
Grinth Fealnon	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:52:00 - [14] Quote: Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates Probably true. Quote: Most Resources: Pirates Highly questionable. If, after all, as you suggest pirates do nothing but pirate, they wouldn't be spending a lot of time gathering resources. Of course, they should be able to afford what they need if someone is willing to sell it to them (provided they havent been able to get it from a victim), but I would think pirates would focus mainly on their ships, outfitting etc. Quote: Most Space Controlled: Pirates This I would completely disagree with. I don't think it any big secret that the various pirate corps spend most of their time these days creating chaos for the corps that are trying to claim space, rather than trying to control space for themselves. This ties into your points about pirates being the best at running away, and it being impossible to track them down. If the pirates were controlling various sections of space, then it shouldn't be to hard to find them, just go to the space they control. Again, it seems pirates move around a lot, creating havoc to whomever is the latest to claim control of space. Quote: Most Profitable Miners: Carebears who payoff/work for Pirates Again, Im not sure I would agree with that, although I am sure there are those who get some pretty lucrative deals this way. Quote: Who will benefit most from those stations being there? How do the new stations benefit pirate corps more than anyone else? Quote: I think the simplest explanation is pirates only do one thing in EVEàpirate. Other corps are focused on a multitude of things from mining and manufacturing and trade to agent missions. How is this directly related to the game design CCP has implemented? There is nothing stopping corporations from focusing purely on one area and forging business ties with other corporations who focus on another area. If a corp diversifies, it is not because CCP has forced them to through game design, it is because the players of the corporation chose to diversify. Besides, as you mentioned, there are those "carebear" miners who "work for pirates". They chose to focus on one area, need another and get a mining corp to work for them, so clearly this is an option that is already utilized in the game. I just really don't think this game is overly unbalanced to pirates Commander Grinth: Logistics "I have seen what power does, and I have seen what power costs. The one is never equal to the other."
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.10 22:56:00 - [15] Perhaps my mistake is lumping in economic cartels with pirates. Personally I feel that all space should be accessible to all. I'll grant I do not make a distinction between a pirate ganking me and a cartel ganking me. As for money I can see no way the likes of m0o or Space Invaders can keep themselves in battleships considering they do not mine and such. As good as they may be they are bound to lose battleships now and again and given the rate with which they seek out fights I am hard pressed to see where all the money comes from without deep reserves (that are replenished). There were stories on this forum awhile back of a Space Invader member (I think) losing three battleships inside of one week and was on her fourth. Maybe that was apocryphal but no one gainsaid it. To me anyone who can acquire 4 batleships in one week is truly wealthy or their corp is. As for controlling space mayhap I misstated. But I was down in Gehi last night and Pooti and some buddies were blocking my entrance into the region behind there with I believe a total of three ships. This was 4j from Gehi. CFS seems to have been asleep or something as they were there for hours. In my book they were controlling the area pretty handily (and before you say why didn't I go get them all I had at my disposal was a hauler...had I my cruiser and some others to help I would have gone hunting gladly). Fountain? Broken near as I can tell. There was a screen shot of what? 100 ships up there in one system? 70+ of which were battleships? For such a poor bunch of people that is an astounding number. I wish our alliance could field a tenth of that. What deep space regions are there that are accessible? Accessible with some reason to expect success? Not 100% safe but reason to believe your armada of ships you need to mine safely won't be a magnet with a quick glimpse at the map?
Sally	Posted - 2004.02.10 23:03:00 - [16] Quote: As for money I can see no way the likes of m0o or Space Invaders can keep themselves in battleships considering they do not mine and such. As good as they may be they are bound to lose battleships now and again and given the rate with which they seek out fights I am hard pressed to see where all the money comes from without deep reserves (that are replenished). There were stories on this forum awhile back of a Space Invader member (I think) losing three battleships inside of one week and was on her fourth. Maybe that was apocryphal but no one gainsaid it. To me anyone who can acquire 4 batleships in one week is truly wealthy or their corp is. There is a difference between losing 4 battleships in a week and acquiring 4 in a week and having 4 battleships due to hard (long time work) work in a hangar. And believe me, some in m0o and SPVD are mining too. Maybe they are not using the obvious ways you are used to, but they are doing it. -- Stories: #1 --
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.02.10 23:07:00 - [17] Quote: As for money I can see no way the likes of m0o or Space Invaders can keep themselves in battleships considering they do not mine and such. As good as they may be they are bound to lose battleships now and again and given the rate with which they seek out fights I am hard pressed to see where all the money comes from without deep reserves (that are replenished). There were stories on this forum awhile back of a Space Invader member (I think) losing three battleships inside of one week and was on her fourth. Maybe that was apocryphal but no one gainsaid it. To me anyone who can acquire 4 batleships in one week is truly wealthy or their corp is. ... That would be ****Cat. PCat was here when I started the 2nd month. She was a trader from release all the way to becoming a pirate. Dunno how deep her pockets really are. But you have to account that the majority of her career in Eve is prolly still more as a Trader than a member of SI. As for money...Well let's just say the difference between my insurance payout and building a new battleship plus insuring it fully again would mean about 30 or so battleships. Biggest factor is the time to aquire all the minerals. So I keep a few battleships as spare I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.10 23:08:00 - [18] Quote: i took "best at running away" to be a flamish "best at not dying" 'cause yeah we're generally good at that Not my intention to be flamish. Frankly I do not understand everyone giving people grief at running away. OF COURSE people run away. Unless it is a fleet action or defense of something important it is just stupid to sit still when three battleships warp up on your mining cruiser. Naturally pirates may expect a 'police' force to show and move them away. Naturally the police force tries to stack the deck in its favor. Running away is to be expected in the pirate's case. I have run into a few who must have warp stabs glued to every spot of his ship...clearly he meant to get away and while not getting the kill stunk I don't see how he was wrong to do it. I for one have no ethical/moral trouble running through camps and have no intention of stopping to fight odds I couldn't hope to win against.
Tesol Xarto	Posted - 2004.02.10 23:14:00 - [19] Edited by: Tesol Xarto on 10/02/2004 23:17:44 Edited by: Tesol Xarto on 10/02/2004 23:16:38 as i don't fully read your post, i hope i'm not writing ***. ==== i think eve is mostly about money, if you talk about beeing successful. ==== so you want to be rich. i don't know when you can call yourself rich in eve, but i'd say that you are well-going (grrr &º"&%/ vocabulary) when you can buy yourself more than one BS. so atm i'm have one BS and i still have money* (enough ). I have been once in a bigger corp, but as it got abbandoned shortly after, i never got anything from that. So one could ask why i have enough money... You have to take advantage of situations. At pre-castor times one could make loads of money by buying nocxicum at 170-190isk and setting selling orders at stations, but npc got more intelligent [;)]. Just after Castor i got rich by making missions and selling the T2-Stuff at 2x recycle-worth. I won't tell what i'm now doing; i think you guess why... What i'm trying to say is that you can be successful w/o beeing in a alliance/pirate-corp. Of course, in that case, you usually won't have much pvp i hope all this was understandable; if not read the sig.... edit: and as may corpmate statet: "i'm playing since beta. I never pirated. I seldom mine. I got PKed one time. I'm not in a big corp. I'm making money. I am having fun." 2nd edit: oh well, i lied i mine ======= WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.10 23:33:00 - [20] FWIW I do consider myself successful so far. I am not wildly wealthy but I pretty much have what I need when I need it and want for little. I was also lucky to fall in with a good bunch in the first corp I joined (and am still a member of). Our corp is growing slowly but nicely with a pretty good bunch of recruits trickling in. I am NOT whining that I am 'losing' the game. Bottom line is I am having fun mostly. I however do not agree that the 'balance' is as good as some seem to think it is. Naturally those who are being very successful think things are peachy. And while there are some whining carebears I do not think all semi-reasonable folk in EVE see it as well balanced as some here do. Just look at a map on any given day. Barring the mad scramble to find stations last night the vast majority of systems are uninhabited. Most everyone is lumped in the Empire. While no doubt some don't have the moxie to attempt deep space forays I assure plenty would IF there was a chance of making it reasonably profitable. The notion that gathering 4-5 battleships, 4-5 miners and a dozen haulers to make a 70j (roundtrip) run into deep space is close to absurd. While it can be done of course it just isn't workable most times and anything less than that wouldn't be any more profitable than spending the same time with 3 cruisers and a guard mining in 0.5 space. That of course assumes no ships are lost on this adventure. As for insta-jumps I admit to using them btu as pirates are often fond of saying the game lets me so why is it wrong? Pirates use many 'loopholes' to their advantage. Indeed, setting those things up is a LOT of work. As such I highly doubt hundreds of people are whipping by camps in this manner. Some will but call it home-turf advantage. I know by watching others as I fly my routes that few are doing the same. And quite honestly 90% of why I use the insta-jumps is because moving a hauler 60j when it goes all of 120 m/s is so painful as to be unbearable. Even if it was all in 1.0 space with a CONCORD fleet ahead of me and behind me and GM Uber ships guarding me I'd still use them if I had them. Surely even most pirates have experienced that and know what I am talking about and would do the same if they could. That it helps avoid getting ganked is to me truly just a side bonus.
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.10 23:59:00 - [21] I couldn't afford a BS until November, and I didn't get one until after castor. Saying that we're all rich is a bit off. If you're basing this on the monetary claims of a few players, then that's your mistake right there. Stavros is no mere pirate, and most of his income is from legitimate sources, same with *****cat and several others. That does not mean 'pirates are rich' though. Nearly all my money has come from agent missions. But then money is only replacement ships to me. Some people put a higher value on it. And there are corps you've never heard of that have more money than you can imagine. .
Tesol Xarto	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:04:00 - [22] Edited by: Tesol Xarto on 11/02/2004 00:05:16 Quote: But then MONEY is only replacement ships to me. Some people put a HIGHER VALUE on it. gngngnnnnnnnnn MONEY... mine its alll mine, i want it all to be mine... gllllgrnnnbnnnnn MUUUAHAHAHAHAHA...... ======= WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion
Kaylan Vallus	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:16:00 - [23] Dude just to add to the "your so off list". Most money - Not the Pirates. I know 1 player who showed me how much she had in her wallet. I can probably bet its more than all the pirates corps combined. Were talkin upper double digit Billions. Highest ship Value total - Not pirates - How many Bships you own? I own 18 of em. Thats just me. Good try. Best at PVP - Some pirates are great at it. Some are ok, and some just Suck. Same goes for the rest of eve. Since rats do fight more than the average miner player you'd think there would be alot more experts at it. Best at Running away - Funny to see you slam your own occupation. There are more pirates who run away, cause most are damn broke and can't afford to see thier ships go boom. Stretching game mechanics? If you only knew of the exploits that are possible that ppl don't use cause its kinda cheating sorta . Best miners? Carebears? lol. Just cause some ppl mine don't stick em in the carebear category. Those are the same ppl who come out and fight ya. Get your terminology right bub. Most profitable miners - Ppl who mine with BS. Don't matter what they mine or where. There pulling in millions and millions.
Tesol Xarto	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:20:00 - [24] Quote: I own 18 of em. Thats just me. Good try. I'm depressed ======= WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:27:00 - [25] Quote: As for insta-jumps I admit to using them btu as pirates are often fond of saying the game lets me so why is it wrong? Sorry for using the "because the game lets me" excuse. I think it is lame when others do it and I shouldn't have used it myself. That said CCP did specifically look into stopping this and chose not to which they seemingly could have done easily. Given that I would say the insta-jump bookmarks are an ok option to use in CCP's eyes.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:36:00 - [26] Quote: I know 1 player who showed me how much she had in her wallet. I can probably bet its more than all the pirates corps combined. Were talkin upper double digit Billions. Highest ship Value total - Not pirates - How many Bships you own? I own 18 of em. Thats just me. Good try. Upper double digit billions? 18 battleships in the hangar? I would assume from your post saying that pirates don't have much money (comparitively) means you are not a pirate nor is your friend with the billions. Maybe should apologize for the whole thread. Pirates are successful because of people like this who are hoarding money for no benefit I can see. 18 battelships with one person? Why? What use are they to you? Mining? Double digit upper billions? Of what use is that? You aren't saving for retirement in EVE, the money doesn't earn interest. With that kind of cash an alliance could be formed and outfitted with a hundred battleships and with that you could do almost as you please and still have lots of money left over. Or forget an alliance and start your own corp and do the same. The fun you and yours could have with this boggles the mind yet the money sits doing nothing.
Tesol Xarto	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:53:00 - [27] simplified you ask in your last post, what the use of money in eve is/ or why anyone should try to get rich; if i get this right. you could ask why do you play games, it won't get you anything in RL. i really don't understand your last post. why do you try to get to level 50 in daoc... to be the killerdude.... why do yoa have xxxx BS in eve to be be the (eventually(?)) killerdude. your postings differ from whining/against posts, but i really don't see your problem with EVE (or might it be that it is rather a mmorpg-prob?) ======= WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion
Zeldania	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:54:00 - [28] Um why should the person with billion from an alliance or give the money away or what not?? Obviousely they worked their butt off, so if they want to sit on it thats there choice. As for the 18 battleships, again they are his possession, obviousely they are doing him some good. Personally I have plenty of money and ships for my needs. It's not a crime to be successful or to have alot of ships. The weathy dont always have to subsidize the less fortunate....
Leitari	Posted - 2004.02.11 00:59:00 - [29] Mon Palae... go end yourself, you dont know anything. Pirating isnt profitable, and dont call everyone a pirate that shoots everything that moves, that isnt pirating. Pirates do not hold any territory for long, they do not have the numbers for it....... why am I even bothering answering such a carebear miner such as yourself. REVOKE HIS FORUM ACCESS PLZ. Here, Only the silent survive.
Tesol Xarto	Posted - 2004.02.11 01:03:00 - [30] Edited by: Tesol Xarto on 11/02/2004 01:06:38 Quote: ... why am I even bothering answering such a carebear miner such as yourself. REVOKE HIS FORUM ACCESS PLZ. i didn't read much of Mon Palae's first posting, but this part of your posting is pure bull****.... the only effect of your answer is, that more people will think that pirates/non-careblabla will get 'hated'..... ======= WOTOK HAS NO BRAIN sobriety sucks / eating nuclear waste might give you indigestion
Skillz	Posted - 2004.02.11 01:05:00 - [31] Edited by: Skillz on 11/02/2004 01:08:34 Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates Most Resources: Pirates Highest Ship Value Added among all Members: Pirates Most Space Controlled: Pirates Best at PvP: Pirates Best at Running Away: Pirates Best Ability to Stretch Game Mechanics: Pirates wrong, if we grid bug, we get banned Best Miners: Carebears that's why they work in our shadow corporations Most Profitable Miners: Carebears who payoff/work for Pirates Now you make this sound like it's something negative. Shame on you, we are cool you know. If you're a good player, get a pirate alt, if you're not. Join CELES or EVOL. Keep on flaming, lamers.
Ginger Snap	Posted - 2004.02.11 01:10:00 - [32] Quote: Quote: As for insta-jumps I admit to using them btu as pirates are often fond of saying the game lets me so why is it wrong? Sorry for using the "because the game lets me" excuse. I think it is lame when others do it and I shouldn't have used it myself. That said CCP did specifically look into stopping this and chose not to which they seemingly could have done easily. Given that I would say the insta-jump bookmarks are an ok option to use in CCP's eyes. I read these forumns a lot, but only recently have started to participate. I'm only 10 weeks old here and in a crowd of players with experience dating back to launch and beta, I felt that I had to really immerse myself in the game and the formns for a long time before I started weighing in on issues. And I'm nowhere near ready to weigh in on most issues... That said, there are two issues I am pretty certain about. The first, there is nothing wrong with insta-jumping (provided insta-jumping means what I think it means - which is to jump to a bookmark just beyond a gate so you appear close enough to click on jump right away). That just seems like something smart to do, and in roleplaying terms, represents an action of an experienced pilot. If I am not thinking right about this, please, someone, enlighten me... But it hardly seems like an exploit or a cheat to me. The second is that this habit the lamer players have of logging on and off all the time as a hunting strategy is an exploit. More importantly, it isn't role playing... and I came here for some role playing. If Character X is sitting around in his Ibis waiting for haulers to float by, then logs out and back with character Y so his BS or cruiser can gank them... well... what's the sport in that? That wasn't a character in the game being successful, that was just some lame kid griefing. It's just my opinion, but if you are playing Eve, then PLAY Eve... You log in, and you stay logged in, using your character until you are done playing. I have two ALTs... One is just a version of my primary that isn't in my corp so she can chat with newbies in my home school's channel, inviting new players on mining missions, and that sort of thing. She has an Ibis and will never train a skill and isn't used outside Amsen. She's just a role playing tool, allowing me to "visit" my alma mater. The other never gets logged at all... I just like the portait I made with her. If CCP decided to yank the second and third character slots, I for one wouldn't complain at all. If you take out the lame use of alts to gank and thieve, then I'd have a hard time pointing to anything I'd consider unfair or unbalancing. Even with that said, I think most players play straight up, so it rarely actually spoils any of the fun for me. -- Ginger Snap CEO and Pop Diva, Lolli Pop
Ginger Snap	Posted - 2004.02.11 01:29:00 - [33] Quote: Edited by: Tesol Xarto on 11/02/2004 01:06:38 Quote: ... why am I even bothering answering such a carebear miner such as yourself. REVOKE HIS FORUM ACCESS PLZ. i didn't read much of Mon Palae's first posting, but this part of your posting is pure bull****.... the only effect of your answer is, that more people will think that pirates/non-careblabla will get 'hated'..... I think you are prolly right... But the first part where he says, "dont call everyone a pirate that shoots everything that moves, that isnt pirating." is right on the money. Pirates make this game fun. NPCs can still be tough, but only the most serious of mishaps (bad lag attack or CTD or something) or bonehead moves (getting myself stuck on a roid) on my part can result in my ship being destroyed at the hands of an NPC. I'm simply too good for the average spawn. (btw, this doesn't mean CCP needs to kick spawns up a notch) Player pirates offer the challange that makes the game worth coming back to. Conflict and risk. Two compelling elements of a game. But the relatively few outright griefers are nothing but scum. If you just wanna pod newbies because its the only way for you to get your jollies, then go play something else. The real players who pirate appear to have reason for doing it and they choose targets based on the motivations of the role they play. I welcome that. -- Ginger Snap CEO and Pop Diva, Lolli Pop
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.11 02:49:00 - [34] Quote: simplified you ask in your last post, what the use of money in eve is/ or why anyone should try to get rich; if i get this right. you could ask why do you play games, it won't get you anything in RL. i really don't understand your last post. why do you try to get to level 50 in daoc... to be the killerdude.... why do yoa have xxxx BS in eve to be be the (eventually(?)) killerdude. your postings differ from whining/against posts, but i really don't see your problem with EVE (or might it be that it is rather a mmorpg-prob?) I have no problem with people getting rich and of course they can use their money/stuff in anyway they see fit and it is not for me to tell them they must do otherwise. That said I can and do have an opinion on their choices and think it is absurd. If you have ever played a RTS game you do not hoard money but use it to build whatever to help further your goals. You only really save to get a big ticket items then spend the money (and allow some reserve for emergencies). The money does nothing just sitting there except perhaps for bragging rights. 18 battleships does nothing unless you are into PvP and know you tend ot lose ships a lot or like to have them spread out so one is always nearby which perhaps may be the case. Maybe I impose my RP attitudes too much on how I think about EVE. I am usually near broke most of the time as while money comes in I see it used better to help mates get skills and get ships and buy BPs for the corp and so on. I do save up for goodies I want and am not all altruistic about it but I prefer to see my money at work helping mates and the corp. Money sitting idle helps no one except perhaps my ego.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.11 02:53:00 - [35] Quote: Edited by: Skillz on 11/02/2004 01:08:34 Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates Most Resources: Pirates Highest Ship Value Added among all Members: Pirates Most Space Controlled: Pirates Best at PvP: Pirates Best at Running Away: Pirates Best Ability to Stretch Game Mechanics: Pirates wrong, if we grid bug, we get banned Best Miners: Carebears that's why they work in our shadow corporations Most Profitable Miners: Carebears who payoff/work for Pirates Now you make this sound like it's something negative. Shame on you, we are cool you know. If you're a good player, get a pirate alt, if you're not. Join CELES or EVOL. Grid bug is hardly the only sploit out there (although I did refer to that one somewhere). Exploits are a negative. No two ways about it. There is areason you get banned for using them. That said pirates use many tactics that are perhaps a bit underhanded and taking advantage of the game's mechanics that are not actual exploits. While I appreciate their creativity in using these to their advantage (clone travel comes to mind) to my mind it undermines the gist of the game in a way never intended.
Carmen Electra	Posted - 2004.02.11 04:32:00 - [36] Quote: Were talkin upper double digit Billions. How many Bships you own? I own 18 of em. Thats just me. Good try. How one makes this kinda money in EVE is beyond me. I'd be willing to bet that you have to use questionable methods to accrue this kind of money. __________
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.02.11 05:11:00 - [37] Quote: Quote: Were talkin upper double digit Billions. How many Bships you own? I own 18 of em. Thats just me. Good try. How one makes this kinda money in EVE is beyond me. I'd be willing to bet that you have to use questionable methods to accrue this kind of money. Are you being serious? Let's say I've got about 30k Zydrine sitting in my hangar. Let's say I've been buying it about 1000 isk below market value. Let's say there's enough demand for zydrine to sell my entire stockpile in a single order. That'd be about 30m isk worth of profit. Let's say I've got a ME 16 Typhoon original blueprint. Let's say I didn't have this utter loathing for selling blueprint licenses. Let's say I decide to set my price at 4m isk per run. And let's say I can make a copy every 15 hours (I think that's the copy time). 30 days and selling every copy. That'd be about 192m isk worth of income. Now let's say we remove the words "Let's say" from the above paragraphs because that's what really happens in the game. Both of those activities are very low maintenance in terms of requiring actual attention. So then it's off to farming rats, collecting bounties and selling the modules for outrageous sums. Avoiding significant losses, the money will quickly collect in your wallet. Because there is no significant drain on funds. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Mojo JoJo	Posted - 2004.02.11 05:44:00 - [38] mon ehh i think spamming npc corps with ads for your corp was not intended by ccp and your corp does it so get of your high horse you my think eve is about isk and maybe it was but for me its about power be you pirate "cartel" bountyhunter i feel eve is about how many guns you have how many friends with guns you have and how good at using them you are i stopped seeing eve as good vs bad long ago now it my friends vs my enemys if you look at eve that way its alot more fun just get some friends preferable ones w/ guns then go find some enemys preferably ones with less guns an bang eve as it should be
Zarthan	Posted - 2004.02.11 06:17:00 - [39] Edited by: Zarthan on 11/02/2004 06:19:24 lol seeing as back in the good ole days i was a pirate i can asure you that the pirates are not anywhere near the richest. The production and minning corps by large own the eve universe. Now before the flame attacks come yes the pirate corps / pvp corps (evol springs to mind) can inflict massive losses to those alliances. A good chunk of that reason being they simply know more about combat. The biggest differnce is the huge corps like xanadu, tti, techell could quite literally loose 10's of ships and it wouldnt be a big deal. An example of this just sheer number wise. Xanadu springs to mind to be a good example. They have a bs bp ship setup in nooni where they have varoius members sell i'm sure around 100-200 million in bpc's a day give or take. Not to mention i'm sure they have forces minning ark somewhere earning literally 100's of millions an hour. So to put it bluntly these guys have enough money to replace all their major assests in a day (didnt techell actually do that?). Most pirate corps are full of freelancers and dont' really work for the good of the whole so much as the individual, which in a round about way hinders there ability to advance and earn money more quickly. Also pirate corps if they are extremly active have little time to earn money so much as they are continously wasiting every dime they have twoards their pvp goals. So very very few active pirate corps have a pot to **** in as a corporation. so to end and sum up my long winded reply your about as far out of touch with the game your playing as you can get. _______________________________________________________ Get custom sigs and graphics done here Unforgivn Website
Keenon	Posted - 2004.02.11 07:11:00 - [40] Quote: and if you think that capturable stations and deployable warp scramblers are going to help pirates your clueless the only pirate corp that still pirates that i can see holding a station is space invaders. the other bigges have all apparently gone legit (fe) or could give **all about controlling one (us) personally im somewhat terrified of the scramblers. im almost always outnumbered and rarely stay in a spot long enough for them to be of any use. the alliances, on the other hand. We are still here pooti =============================================== Help keep carebear population under control!!!! POD U LATER**
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2004.02.11 07:28:00 - [41] isk is rather worthless anyway.... the eve economy is based on trit. In fact, I would say trit is worth more then isk, and the isk has been devalued quite a bit. Course, it's easier to move isk around then indies full of trit Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.11 07:47:00 - [42] Edited by: Mon Palae on 11/02/2004 07:50:37 Edited by: Mon Palae on 11/02/2004 07:48:59 Quote: Most pirate corps are full of freelancers and dont' really work for the good of the whole so much as the individual, which in a round about way hinders there ability to advance and earn money more quickly. Also pirate corps if they are extremly active have little time to earn money so much as they are continously wasiting every dime they have twoards their pvp goals. So very very few active pirate corps have a pot to ** in as a corporation. For corps that don't have a pot to pi$$ in being able to muster 100 ships in Fountain with over 70 of those being battleships my guess is they are using enemy pods to pi$$ in (amazed that CCP censors the word "pi$$"). This brings in alliance stuff but still...why distunguish between m0o and Space Invaders and whoever else when the bottom line for me is the same? A group of people who can do such a thing that makes them essentially invincible (if for no other reason a 200 ship fight would be lag hell so just moving that many ships in a system shhuts it down...forget PvP even if someone would take on such a force). Your take on the matter simply doesn't bear up to scrutiny. I just got killed by m0o tonight in the Khanid region and every ship of theirs I passed save 1 hauler was a battleship. 95% of the time I get info on someone who is in m0o or Space Invaders it is a battlsehip. Maybe they just hide when in cruisers but that says they have astounding numbers. As good as they may be at PvP they are bound to lose ships yet they seem to have zero trouble keeping the pressure up when and where they like. Mind you I am not ***ing that they can do such things. That they manage to pull what they do off so well is simply good gameplay and more power to them. But to suggest they are poor and scratching for a living is utter crap because if it was true they live a moment away from collapse with one bad day in the field.
Cabadrin	Posted - 2004.02.11 07:58:00 - [43] Edited by: Cabadrin on 11/02/2004 07:59:57 In reply to Mon PalaeÆs post: As my corp-mate has so succinctly said, the current galaxy lends itself to piracy. The scarcity of ore above hemorphite in empire systems forces massive refines of pirate loot or dangerous operations into 0.0 space in order to produce many items. Those corporations that donÆt posses many battleships or many active players find it hard to fully compete in the EVE market, which some could say is how it should be. What weÆre playing here, however, is a game. WeÆre not real members of a laissez-faire economy, weÆre players trying to have a fun time. No one likes to experience less liberty then they had before. You can argue all you want about whether large pirates control fringe space or not, but weÆre still getting camped out there and weÆre definitely finding it annoying. People who say ôgo somewhere elseö should realize that there is a lack of ore in certain areas. ThatÆs exactly why weÆre mining in 0.0 space in the first place. If we could, weÆd mine in 1.0 space and fight in 0.0 space, but thatÆs not going to happen and shouldnÆt happen. It makes us angry when formerly open space is closed to us. I say, and I think Mon would agree with me, that itÆs the diminishment of freedom that hurts the most. Being forced into empire space makes life cramped and increases conflict. We need a place to grow into, an area of space where we can be challenged but not overwhelmed. Of course we get posts rebutting our problems. Large corporations, pirates and ôlegitö corporations, make lots of money and in many cases we get the leftovers. However, it doesnÆt matter, because weÆre still going to be ****ed about being kicked out of space. Mon was trying to make a point that at least in the areas we frequent, pirates (aka heavy-duty pvpers who open fire without warning) tend to make life more annoying than unlivable. IÆd love to see CONCORD smack them in the face, but I adapt to life and if needed IÆll move / kick someoneÆs ass. I still think almost all of MonÆs points are valid, though. ----------------------------------------------- Coalition Kill Board
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.11 08:09:00 - [44] Quote: Are you being serious? Let's say I've got about 30k Zydrine sitting in my hangar. Let's say I've been buying it about 1000 isk below market value. Let's say there's enough demand for zydrine to sell my entire stockpile in a single order. That'd be about 30m isk worth of profit. Let's say I've got a ME 16 Typhoon original blueprint. Let's say I didn't have this utter loathing for selling blueprint licenses. Let's say I decide to set my price at 4m isk per run. And let's say I can make a copy every 15 hours (I think that's the copy time). 30 days and selling every copy. That'd be about 192m isk worth of income. Now let's say we remove the words "Let's say" from the above paragraphs because that's what really happens in the game. Both of those activities are very low maintenance in terms of requiring actual attention. So then it's off to farming rats, collecting bounties and selling the modules for outrageous sums. Avoiding significant losses, the money will quickly collect in your wallet. Because there is no significant drain on funds. The drain comes in replacing that Zydrine. What you propose works once as regards the minerals. Then it is back out to deep space to mine for more which is always a risky prospect and at the very least time consuming and resource intensive. One refine of Crokite (the biggest Zydrine producing mineral I think) gets you around 650-700 Zydrine. An Iteron Mk-V can hold maybe 6 refines of Crokite max. That is roughly seven full loads to replace that stockpile. BP's are a different issue altogether and those fortunate enough to have them seem to have a license to print money with a worthwhile BP.
Jash Illian	Posted - 2004.02.11 08:17:00 - [45] Quote: Quote: Are you being serious? Let's say I've got about 30k Zydrine sitting in my hangar. Let's say I've been buying it about 1000 isk below market value. Let's say there's enough demand for zydrine to sell my entire stockpile in a single order. That'd be about 30m isk worth of profit. Let's say I've got a ME 16 Typhoon original blueprint. Let's say I didn't have this utter loathing for selling blueprint licenses. Let's say I decide to set my price at 4m isk per run. And let's say I can make a copy every 15 hours (I think that's the copy time). 30 days and selling every copy. That'd be about 192m isk worth of income. Now let's say we remove the words "Let's say" from the above paragraphs because that's what really happens in the game. Both of those activities are very low maintenance in terms of requiring actual attention. So then it's off to farming rats, collecting bounties and selling the modules for outrageous sums. Avoiding significant losses, the money will quickly collect in your wallet. Because there is no significant drain on funds. The drain comes in replacing that Zydrine. What you propose works once as regards the minerals. Then it is back out to deep space to mine for more which is always a risky prospect and at the very least time consuming and resource intensive. One refine of Crokite (the biggest Zydrine producing mineral I think) gets you around 650-700 Zydrine. An Iteron Mk-V can hold maybe 6 refines of Crokite max. That is roughly seven full loads to replace that stockpile. BP's are a different issue altogether and those fortunate enough to have them seem to have a license to print money with a worthwhile BP. Err...cept for one thing: I don't mine. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Mon Palae	Posted - 2004.02.11 08:32:00 - [46] Edited by: Mon Palae on 11/02/2004 08:38:02 Quote: I just got killed by m0o tonight in the Khanid region Oh yeah...to the people who suggest that pirates don't shoot on sight think again. My experience is that they ALWAYS do when the opportunity presents itself. Earlier tonight before I got nailed I passed numerous members of m0o in local as I passed from system to system. Indeed, they seemed to be on the same route I was for at least 6 jumps. They had every opportunity to hail me and demand a toll or some such and no doubt knew I was there and doubtless knew where I was headed as there are no stations out there. I got nailed by a guy who I once knew (I use that loosely since we didn't really know each other...just had seen him around prior to m0o moving in) as a person not to be worried about. Turns out he joined m0o two days ago. My bad for not getting info on someone who I thought was ok but he got me fair-and-square. Nevertheless the option to toll my way out was never offered. A person who once was friendly (inasmuch as we shared the same space with no hostility) didn't offer any kind of pass (and I remained in cloak after the jump for awhile thinking about my next move but not worrying about him). I uncloaked to go to warp and blammo. I am NOT accusing m0o of doing anything underhanded nor accusing the person who got me of being a creep who fires in former friends (as I said we did not know each other...I merely viewed him as not a threat to me). M0o did what it does and that's fine much as I do not enjoy getting whacked. They are under no obligation to toll me either but my view of pirates being shoot first folks is stronger than ever. Would I have paid? Dunno but to be honest probably not thinking I could make it but the option was never given. And yes I could hail them and offer money but who does that? Be like walking down the street and seeing gang and going up to them before they do anything and trying to give them money so they don't hurt you. In hindsight maybe the smart move but who would do that?
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.11 09:10:00 - [47] People do, mon. I've been offered tribute to pass through pure blind and back again, And I was almost in Curse at the time. Pu.ssycat gets quite a few offers in aurohunen. If people see us in local, some will offer money. They go home with a moth in their wallet, but their ship intact. It's just one of those things. A bit of initiative will save you a lot of trouble. .
Agan Rafa	Posted - 2004.02.11 09:36:00 - [48] I think the core issue here is that the two sides of the argument are flaming the wrong profession. Having posted frequently in the past month on this type of subject, and reading all the answers, I've reached the conclusion that what we carebears call a pirate is not necessarily a pirate at all. I think a lot of what has been said about deep pockets and BS's and mining and so on actually fits more to the 'grey pirates' than to the 'black pirates'. A 'grey' is essentially someone who is a carebear - he manufactures, mines, does missions, is in a big corp, and generally toes the proverbial line (leaving himself a positive security rating). He'll often use alts to do his dirty work, rigorously enforcing his 'don't come near my roids' attitude (but not expecting any comeback for his podding - he can do it so he does - hardly ever convo's or asks for money, doesn't care), basically he will do anything to protect his precious ISK - regardless of whether its fair, in character (in a game sense), an exploit (not de facto, but a loose loop) or indeed just downright ganky. He doesn't give two hoots about anything save his 'monty haul' attitude - he lives to 'win', by any and all means possible. Always the first to run when the going gets tough - unless of course he has 18 BS in the hangar already, and just doesn't care about losses - and he NEVER role-plays, its all about being a 'high-roller' - in RL often the 'backstabber' type. The 'black' is easier to describe, he's quite simply just a standard pirate - he lives by a pirate code, always playing 'in-character', may or may not be successful, but he doesn't care much - his life also revolves around winning, but in the way he has deemed it should be done. He is a diehard PvP'er usually, and enjoys his mass battles and respects a good fight. He likes to think of himself as a real blackheart, but in reality he's much more forgiving and much more reasonable than people often give him credit for. To him an exploit IS still an exploit, and doesn't warrant all that much attention - he may or may not use it, but he's really not all that bothered - he just wants to have some fun. So, before we go flaming each other left right and centre, lets get our facts straight. No carebear has a problem with a 'black pirate' - I myself enjoy the risk factor they bring to the game - but we all hate 'greys' with a passion - these guys basest desire is to trample others in order to get ahead. This is the behaviour we so regularly 'whine' about. Its not about gaming, its about ego's. These greys are the ones that are ruining our fun and our game, and these guys are the ones that deserve our disdain - shame on you all. Carebear extraordinaire
Mojo JoJo	Posted - 2004.02.11 09:58:00 - [49] Quote: For corps that don't have a pot to pi$$ in being able to muster 100 ships in Fountain with over 70 of those being battleships my guess is they are using enemy pods to pi$$ in (amazed that CCP censors the word "pi$$"). This brings in alliance stuff but still...why distunguish between m0o and Space Invaders and whoever else when the bottom line for me is the same? A group of people who can do such a thing that makes them essentially invincible (if for no other reason a 200 ship fight would be lag hell so just moving that many ships in a system shhuts it down...forget PvP even if someone would take on such a force). that wasnt mo0 that was m0o cow and fe probobly 8-10 pvp corps its hard to do that back true they hold no space but where they are at atm they have bases but move aroud alot here the deal if you want to fight pick a side if not hide out in empire space with concord or have something to offer "friends w/ guns" you may not like getting kill not many do its your choice but if you get 100 friends w/ guns 70 of them in BS and sit in germinate im sure fe would get a lil bent out of shape moo is a 50 man corp granted they probly have no alts and they are all pvp guys but you could do this too defender lose in eve i feel attackers win they gain alot of advantage buy picking a good time and a good target for a good win defenders spend all day bored waiting not making any money and for no one fighting a 200 man battle i bet it will happen if not already between ca/sa eve maybe to harsh a game for you maybe try another
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.11 10:13:00 - [50] Let's see: I haven't mined for at least 4 months. I haven't NPC hunted for almost as long. I've never had more than 20M isk in my wallet. I went as low as 20k isk yesterday after buying a crapload of skills/modules/ships for my 2nd account. I currently have a balance of: 14,935,176 isk. I've been playing since the day of release and I've never ever played the game to make money. If you spend your game time being jealous of what other people have acheived, consider this: They were probably REALLY bored while making that insane amount of cash. LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Ertai Vodalion	Posted - 2004.02.11 10:52:00 - [51] Quote: I think the core issue here is that the two sides of the argument are flaming the wrong profession. Having posted frequently in the past month on this type of subject, and reading all the answers, I've reached the conclusion that what we carebears call a pirate is not necessarily a pirate at all. I think a lot of what has been said about deep pockets and BS's and mining and so on actually fits more to the 'grey pirates' than to the 'black pirates'. A 'grey' is essentially someone who is a carebear - he manufactures, mines, does missions, is in a big corp, and generally toes the proverbial line (leaving himself a positive security rating). He'll often use alts to do his dirty work, rigorously enforcing his 'don't come near my roids' attitude (but not expecting any comeback for his podding - he can do it so he does - hardly ever convo's or asks for money, doesn't care), basically he will do anything to protect his precious ISK - regardless of whether its fair, in character (in a game sense), an exploit (not de facto, but a loose loop) or indeed just downright ganky. He doesn't give two hoots about anything save his 'monty haul' attitude - he lives to 'win', by any and all means possible. Always the first to run when the going gets tough - unless of course he has 18 BS in the hangar already, and just doesn't care about losses - and he NEVER role-plays, its all about being a 'high-roller' - in RL often the 'backstabber' type. The 'black' is easier to describe, he's quite simply just a standard pirate - he lives by a pirate code, always playing 'in-character', may or may not be successful, but he doesn't care much - his life also revolves around winning, but in the way he has deemed it should be done. He is a diehard PvP'er usually, and enjoys his mass battles and respects a good fight. He likes to think of himself as a real blackheart, but in reality he's much more forgiving and much more reasonable than people often give him credit for. To him an exploit IS still an exploit, and doesn't warrant all that much attention - he may or may not use it, but he's really not all that bothered - he just wants to have some fun. So, before we go flaming each other left right and centre, lets get our facts straight. No carebear has a problem with a 'black pirate' - I myself enjoy the risk factor they bring to the game - but we all hate 'greys' with a passion - these guys basest desire is to trample others in order to get ahead. This is the behaviour we so regularly 'whine' about. Its not about gaming, its about ego's. These greys are the ones that are ruining our fun and our game, and these guys are the ones that deserve our disdain - shame on you all. couldn¦t have said that better .... Quote: If you spend your game time being jealous of what other people have acheived, consider this: They were probably REALLY bored while making that insane amount of cash. soooo true .. I don¦t want to know how many assets sit in Hangars of canceled accounts catching dust because the player got bored and quit I prefer having fun & being poor ... playing since release and still flying the Vexor I bought last June ....
Nicholas Marshal	Posted - 2004.02.11 11:11:00 - [52] Vexor rocks. Such a beautiful ship.
Siddy	Posted - 2004.02.11 11:11:00 - [53] Edited by: Siddy on 11/02/2004 11:13:31 Quote: Edited by: Mon Palae on 10/02/2004 22:24:34 Pirates win by invocation of the "smear" rule. DonÆt think so? LetÆs see what measures we can use: Most Money in the Wallet: Pirates Most Resources: Pirates Highest Ship Value Added among all Members: Pirates Most Space Controlled: Pirates Best at PvP: Pirates Best at Running Away: Pirates Best Ability to Stretch Game Mechanics: Pirates Best Miners: Carebears Most Profitable Miners: Carebears who payoff/work for Pirates (cont.) Can u PLEASE refrase that word:pirates EVE system Resembles Feudal system of Goverment ¦: Ruling by sword Royalty: PVP players Pesants : CareBears there u go :P -------------------------------------------
Pychian Vanervi	Posted - 2004.02.11 11:23:00 - [54] Quote: I've been playing since the day of release and I've never ever played the game to make money. If you spend your game time being jealous of what other people have acheived, consider this: They were probably REALLY bored while making that insane amount of cash. This is my feeling exactly, there is so much of the 'If he's got it why can't I' and 'Why do they get more than me!!' There are many who go on about this being a game so should be fun. Well I have had more than my share of fun over the last 7 months but add to that happiness, sadness, anger, and many other feeling which no other game has envocked. Plus at no point ever felt that another player be it carebear, pirate or whatever catagory they come under should have anything taken from them to make a level playing field. I am just starting to rant, as I can't understand the viewpoint regarding wanting it all now and if you can't have it now its a bad thing! ----------------------------- It's all about the fortune and glory, fortune and glory!
Jim Raynor	Posted - 2004.02.11 11:36:00 - [55] wtf, when did the carebears manage to score 55 pts? ------ ROBBLE ROBBLE
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.11 11:39:00 - [56] Jim, You can delete posts. Click "Edit" then "delete". LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Phoibos	Posted - 2004.02.11 12:34:00 - [57] Pirates rule Eve? Eh. I think not. If you want to diminish the rule of pirates perhaps you should join a stronger alliance. /Phoibos DreamScape
Del Tarrant	Posted - 2004.02.11 12:40:00 - [58] pootie joked... Quote: yeah another "i'm not winning, therefore eve is in the midst of a crisis" type dealie. i think ccp has done an incredible job balancing eve in every respect HAHAHAHAHA!!!! ROTFLMAO! You're joking right? You think this game is balanced in every respect? HAHAHAHAHA!!!! No seriously... HAHAHAHAHA!!!! wipes tear from eyes LOL! I thought you were serious for a second then! ...game balanced in every respect LMAO!!!
Maud Dib	Posted - 2004.02.11 13:14:00 - [59] Cookie?
Cabadrin	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:39:00 - [60] Edited by: Cabadrin on 11/02/2004 15:41:11 Quote: EVE system Resembles Feudal system of Goverment ¦: Ruling by sword Oh really? So by cooperating together in our corporation we're really "ruling by the sword"? By pursuing a policy of help when needed and communal wallets we're "ruling by the sword"? Get real. Most small corporations don't even try to take over part of space. We're content to simply exist. We'll fight back if we have to, but we're not some group of bloodthirsty pilots who enjoy pasting badgers across space with a 1400mm cannon. ----------------------------------------------- Coalition Kill Board
Joshua Calvert	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:42:00 - [61] Replace pirates with alliances and he'd have a better point? LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Cabadrin	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:47:00 - [62] Quote: Pirates rule Eve? Eh. I think not. If you want to diminish the rule of pirates perhaps you should join a stronger alliance. There's more to the game then PvP. The FSA is not an agressive allaince; we have an area that we use and we don't begrudge other players the right to mine or work there. Of course we become angry when someone attacks a pilot, and we respond in kind, but we're not going to puff up our ego and claim a massive tract of stars like most other alliances. If I wanted to join an exclusive organization I'd run down the street to the local golf course and clubhouse, or join the Masons. We don't want to become like current pirates by attacking anyone in a pirate corp we see; we'll take retaliatory action, but we're not going to kill anyone who flies through, not even if they're a member of m0o. We'll be wary, but we'll not kill them on sight. ----------------------------------------------- Coalition Kill Board
Cabadrin	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:49:00 - [63] Quote: Replace pirates with alliances and he'd have a better point? I would say let's lump allainces in with the pirates, but since we're in one it would seem hypocritcal. Suffice to say that any corp who PvP's on sight in their "territory" is acting like a pirate and will be seen as pirates by many players. Aggressive actions get angry responses. ----------------------------------------------- Coalition Kill Board
drunkenmaster	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:52:00 - [64] Edited by: drunkenmaster on 11/02/2004 15:54:07 Quote: Edited by: Cabadrin on 11/02/2004 15:41:11 Quote: EVE system Resembles Feudal system of Goverment ¦: Ruling by sword Oh really? So by cooperating together in our corporation we're really "ruling by the sword"? By pursuing a policy of help when needed and communal wallets we're "ruling by the sword"? Get real. Most small corporations don't even try to take over part of space. We're content to simply exist. We'll fight back if we have to, but we're not some group of bloodthirsty pilots who enjoy pasting badgers across space with a 1400mm cannon. I think he was talking about corps/alliances that want to rule. It's kinda obvious that corps that do not wish to rule will not adhere to 'ruling by the sword'. And it's not just pirates that enjoy blowing people apart with 1400's. I dare say that anyone that has fired a 1400 against another player has probably enjoyed it. Take celestial Apoc for example, they are not pirates (yet), but they would appear to love a good fight. .
Del Tarrant	Posted - 2004.02.11 15:57:00 - [65] Quote: Cookie? Only if its a chocolate chip one
pooti	Posted - 2004.02.11 17:29:00 - [66] everyone we asked to pay last night either refused or logged, so why bother besides tons of people have been running loads of equipment into the area and i'd rather have that
Xavier Arron	Posted - 2004.02.11 19:12:00 - [67] Edited by: Xavier Arron on 11/02/2004 19:29:31 Edited by: Xavier Arron on 11/02/2004 19:22:33 Only thing that bothers me is PVP alts!!!! Pirates who play the game in a pirate role are cool. What IÆm really fed up with is PVP alts with full insurance who hit and run and log off, so we canÆt hunt them to exact revenge. Even when we do kill them they lose nothing, because they can afford full insurance on one ship, but we canÆt afford to fully insure every single ship in our corp. Most supply their alts with money / ships from their main chars. They have no risk in effect, and no come back. But its the random logging that really pi$$es me off. They can just go off and play their other character all day!

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