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MAKE SALVAGING and Act of Aggression + Nerf Mission deadspace scanning

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Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.09.21 16:21:00 - [61] Adapt. Originally by: Big Al Well, if there was a law against stupidity, the server would certainly lag less.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.09.21 17:02:00 - [62] Originally by: Zilverpine Originally by: Petrothian Tong edit: so far, the best way to deal with them is: -Put an ECCM on your ship, which makes you harder to scan -dont use drones, they light you up on the scanner like christmas lights. -warp out when the salvager gets in, so the whole room aggro him =P remember, ADAPT!!! lol and personally, I believe this is CCP's method of getting players out into low sec and 0.0... Is this the average knowledge on the "it's fair as it is"-side? It's not complete, if that's what you mean, but is there something there which is inaccurate? * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Zilverpine	Posted - 2007.09.21 23:35:00 - [63] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske It's not complete, if that's what you mean, but is there something there which is inaccurate? (disclamer: Zilverpine has now had a few beers) Well, it depends on how you see on it. You tell me to sac a midslot and drones. From my humble experience in this game, you need every slot for a mission. You need even more slots of course. If you remove one midslot to avoid detection (no 100% guarantee though), no use of drones (makes dealing with scramblers almost impossible = loose ship) and then warp out, which gives the scavanger a good idea about on where to send his/her probes. A mission often contains more than one room. You warp to deadspace and kill a few npc's. Then next one, maybe 2-3 groups which you engage one at a time. You kill first group without getting agro from the next one. And so on... This means that anyone with the skills and probes can go into the first room, totally empty from npc and the "missioneer", and salvage. Then you warp into the next room where this "missioner" is busy with 5 battleships and lots of smaller, tackling ships.. you go ahead with your salvaging, and the missioner can do nothing. I might be wrong, but i really doubt you ran a few high level missions. PvP and PvE is equally hard. It is just a different kind of game. Salvage "gave" missioners free money. Well, most we get is stuff that sells for 500-50000 isk. From PvP and 0.0 you get those "tech2" salvage you need for tech2 rigs (which obviously are worth more). This game should be able for those who play 24/7 and those who play it cassaually (beer affecting typing warning). Just how are you supposted to do those hard missions when you have to sacrifice survivability and dps? As i said (wrote), i got a merely 3,8 mil skillpoints doing lvl2 in a rupture. But when i do a mission, i really get scared. I might get jumped into a group of 4-5 ships doing all-out dps on me. If unlucky i get scrambled. Since i cant choose the range/fight i will loose my ship if fitted wrongly - forcing me to go back to my old ship doing less isk/hour played. If i had the time i would LOVE doing lowsec pvp. Well, its not all about time, honestly. I really feel for those who get podded just passing by doing an unlucky cuirier mission. Some people who have played for a while got millions, if not billions, of isk waiting to replace your ship. If i get pod'ed and blown up i loose almost everything. The insurance will get me my ship back (as long as im flying tech1), but my implants will be lost and so will my 'scout' modules be. The few times ive entered 0.4 and below ive been insta-pod'ed. Maybe a L2P-issue (to borrow an expresion from the game everyone who in "this" game hates... l...o...0....l .. yet, the personalities on the forums are the same). But if something stings, i will stay away from it. Some basic question i still get in my head is: If there are no highsec miners/missionrunners - where will you get your ship from? Small gang pvp? Fleetbattles? Afaik you need SP's to get a ship or modules - unless you build them from scratch using minerals (from those noob miners). Anyways.. tooo many beers, ill have to come back on this conversation another day :) Opps, still havent posted... Well. Maybe you should get alot more isk in reward for dong missions in space below 0.4 and you can get your precious salvage. And from my experience in mmorpg's, you ONLY complain unless you got the golden spoon. Its the human way. So, if you dont need to complain - think of how privileged you are. Sweet dreams =)
Myshella Drake Caldari Griffin Shield Unlimited	Posted - 2007.09.22 04:31:00 - [64] Originally by: Myshella Drake Actually its NOT 'easy' because its not as simple as just scanning out the deadspace, missions dont just show up on scan probes you know....nor do the objects/ships inside them... Originally by: Xaen Bull**, several things show up or they** wouldn't be able to find them. Okay it appears i worded that wrong. For the ppl here who acually have never done scanning : As you SHOULD KNOW most MISSIONS are DEADSPACE.Its near impossible to scan something out already INSIDE the deadspace (with the exception of drones)...which is what i ment to say above...Okay then track down his drones to find him...umm...no. not in places like Motsu where you have about 50 abandoned drones pop up on scanner,with accuary in the 100s or 1000s of km (depending on what probe type you use) Like i said before if you want to avoid losing your salvage then do as you go...and yes i do run lvl 4s solo, so dont whine about how you can't do that... And if you still can't to that...FFS ,GET OUT OF MOTSU!!, or the other busy mission areas ...problem sovled, it would solve alot of other problems too... People who complain about this obviously don't think about the other implications flagging wrecks/nerfing scanning DEADSPACE would have...eg wrecks LEFT BEHIND in belts or complexes or pirates scanning missioners in LOW SEC(you know, that area where carebears get killed )
karrea Caldari Warrior Nation United	Posted - 2007.10.02 03:07:00 - [65] i see most of us were talking about people salvangeing our wreaks as we left, people scanning us out... stuff like that... now after finishing my lvl 4 with my gang i began salvanging... long story shorter a execuror warps in on me and my gang salvanging the wreaks... so i order my corpmates to warp in an apoc that was standing by... he gets there, and the neutral begins SALVANGING my wreaks and im not talking 3 or 4 im talking right after we finished the mission when there was 30+ wreaks (he got 10-15 of them... thats almost half come on....) he didnt loot any of it... so we didnt get aggression because apperantly "the wreaks are not mine" even tho i kill the rats the wreaks belonged too... now i want to know why my apoc couldnt instapop that cruiser when he salvanged my wreaks... why my apoc didnt get aggression so he could shoot... i want to build my capacitor control curcuits, and i want to build them sooner rather then later, and people STEALING my wreaks does not help. all i ask is for aggression to be added to salvanging not a long aggression just a couple minutes or so! when some one salvanges a wreak that doesnt belong to them the apoc 20km off thier bow should beable pop them... i dont see the problem if some one steals your loot shoot them if some one steals your salvange shoot them... i dont care if neutrals jump up into my mission but when they start salvanging my wreaks and i am capible of defending my self why can't i ============================================= BOO drones Horray beer -red stripe- =============================================
Dapanman1 Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.02 04:37:00 - [66] Originally by: Cornucopian Lines and lines of insults and poor grammar. You sir need to chill out. I, while not exactly a mission runner, don't care much about my rat loot/salvage and would just as soon let someone else have it, there is however a point burried deep in this thread. Ninja-salvaging is essentially stealing the salvage (wrecks are marked to the mission runner) and often the salvage is worth more than the crap T1 loot in the wreck, so if stealing the loot allows the missioner to shoot you, then having salvaging follow the same pattern doesn't seem illogical. I don't support anyhting that would make missions harder to scan or anything, just saying that having the ninja-salvager (currently no risks) take the same risks as the ninja-looter (aggroed to missioner) makes perfect sense. Its not like the majority of farmers would shoot you anyway. (Bolded short version) Beets, you're among friends.
Dapanman1 Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.02 04:42:00 - [67] Originally by: Petrothian Tong Originally by: Xaen Originally by: Cornucopian could someone please tell us how long it takes to scan out a mission? People have bragged that it takes less than two minutes. So yeah, risk vs. reward is bunk. well, the Epeeners that can scan people down in 2 minutes spent about 2 month training the REALLY painful scan speed skills to lvl 5...(covet ops (rank 4), and the sig aqusistion skil l(RANK 8) so... yeah, it took alot of investment to be a good prober. Takes my scanning alt 30s at a resonable range. Beets, you're among friends.
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 05:23:00 - [68] Originally by: Dapanman1 Takes my scanning alt 30s at a resonable range. He was talking about with Exploration Probes, which is what all the cool pirates are doing these days. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Dapanman1 Amarr Beets and Gravy Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.02 05:44:00 - [69] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Originally by: Dapanman1 Takes my scanning alt 30s at a resonable range. He was talking about with Exploration Probes, which is what all the cool pirates are doing these days. Yeah I know, but when you get a hit on a Rattlesnake (Pith X- fitted) 45 au away with a 1 pt observator probe on your first try...screw exploration probes, eh? Beets, you're among friends.
raven415 Caldari FireStar Inc	Posted - 2007.10.02 10:08:00 - [70] heres an idea get a noob to join ya and let him clean the wrecks up. if your doing level 4s its not like your hurting for isk.

Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:17:00 - [71] Originally by: karrea capacitor control curcuits, and i want to build them sooner rather then later, and people STEALING my wreaks does not help. all i ask is for aggression to be added to salvanging not a long aggression just a couple minutes or so! when some one salvanges a wreak that doesnt belong to them the apoc 20km off thier bow should beable pop them... i dont see the problem if some one steals your loot shoot them if some one steals your salvange shoot them... i dont care if neutrals jump up into my mission but when they start salvanging my wreaks and i am capible of defending my self why can't i swings a very very large bat SLAM IT'S SLAM NOT SLAM YOUR SLAM WRECK SLAM Thats why. When you accept a mission, the rewards and benefits you get form it is: Mission reward. Mission bonus reward. Mission loot. Mission LP rewards. Standing increase. Standing loss. See, nowhere is it mentioned that wrecks are a part of you reward. Quite the opposite. CCP has said that mission runners don't own the wrecks, only the loot. Sorry for the bumps on your head, but I do hope you understand the message. Otherwise I'll gladly swing the bat again .
Chi Quan Jade Phoenix Deutschland Event-Horizon	Posted - 2007.10.02 21:53:00 - [72] the mission runner produces that wreck, how can it NOT belong to him(or her, but therz no gurz on tha intraweb)? how about jetcan mining? geez, that miner just threw away some ore, he does not need it. yet the thief gets aggression flaged. salvaging nets for roughly 50% of the income when missioning (more for lower levels, less for higher ones). and that ninjasalvager is cutting in a missioners income, he is a parasite, and a missioner just wants the ability to get to that parasite. feel free to salvage and probe out all missioners, but risk and reward should be in balance here. if the missioner has friends and the ninjasalvager doesn't, the later one should be screwed. if the salvager has friends as well, there is pew pew. the more the merrier. the current system does not allow for this. attacking a salvager nets concord another killmail. it makes me think of gatecamping motherships in lowsec, rewarding griefers. even IF the salvager gets the aggro flag, he has still high chances of getting away. how many missioners fit scrams? how effective is a mission battleship fighting an assault frig at +20km (even IF it has a scram + web fited)? if the missioner has friends, see above. -- Tempus fugit -- quote spiralJunkie: it doesn't matter how you pronounce it, it still shoots you in the face
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.10.02 22:03:00 - [73] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 02/10/2007 22:05:25 Originally by: Chi Quan the mission runner produces that wreck, how can it NOT belong to him(or her, but therz no gurz on tha intraweb)? how about jetcan mining? geez, that miner just threw away some ore, he does not need it. yet the thief gets aggression flaged. Because there's another step involved. The salvage doesn't get produced until somebody makes the effort of extracting it. The mission runner hasn't "mined" the salvage yet. Once he does that, it's his property. From there, he's welcome to jetcan it and get can flipped if he'd like. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.10.03 09:18:00 - [74] Edited by: Jaketh Ivanes on 03/10/2007 09:19:22 nevermind.
Auroraman	Posted - 2007.10.03 15:30:00 - [75] Troubles with missions? HERES THE SIMPLE ANSWER FOR ALL OF YOU: Get off your Butt and form a gang it's what pirates do to kill you. If you werent running carebear missions all day / whining on the forums / sitting in the station all day you might be pretty good at pvp but since you do all 3 of these like all the other carebears these days you suck at anything that you couldnt bend over and totally spank. The worst part of all this is you whining about a salvager so what it was a t1 frig / destroyer that probably woulda eaten your carebear raven alive lol FREE ADVICE - IF YOUR PVP TANK CAN'T TANK YOUR MISSION YOU SHOULDNT EVEN BE UNDOCKED IN EVE YET YOU NUB
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.03 16:33:00 - [76] Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 03/10/2007 16:33:38 From Prism X: Quote: If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. You can read the thread HERE Simply; Salvaging is a mini-profession, it is not a mission runner's entitlement program. If you have problems with people salvaging your junk laying around move to a less populated system. Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Hayward Cyprus Caldari Thundercats RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.03 20:35:00 - [77] In my opinion the way it is now it is not really viable (and efficient) to salvage while doing the mission. It is far better to do it after the mission. Therefore I can well understand people in high sec not being happy about their wrecks being salavged and a fair share of their profit being taken away. An option would be to make it an act of aggression, but to also give the missionrunner the option to flag his wrecks FFA (maybe even then make them easier to scan), something in the options, like autotarget back n targets, only an option to mark your wrecks in a certain way. Personally I only run the missions and very rarely care to loot or salvage, as it is way too boring for me. I would not mind people being able to salvage and/or take the loot without any risk for them and without any risk for me. Though for the people that do salvage their own missions I can well understand their argument here. There are different ways to play eve, that's a fact, else we could just make all high sec like low sec. That would probably halve the eve playerbase though :-). I am pretty sure there are many more missionrunners, that will gladly give away the loot/salvage they do not use anyway for free like me, than there are people making a profession out of salvaging. If that is the case, both sides would be served by the above mentioned option and it might even reduce a bit of the laag :-). That's just my 2 isk on the matter Hayward Cyprus
Braise Erighani Gallente Galaxia Entertainment	Posted - 2007.10.04 20:31:00 - [78] no risk = no reward ninja salvagers take no risks
MirrorGod Heretic Army Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.05 04:27:00 - [79] You are a carebear carebear carebear carebear carebear carebear carebear. They've already nerfed missions scanning and it sucks trying to find a mission as it is (90% reduction to your ship sig while you're in a deadspace) STFU!
SUNscatcher Caldari Pacificsun	Posted - 2007.10.07 11:41:00 - [80] I do believe that certain wrecks drop more rare salvage and thus has to beconsidered the "reward". I've gotten several drone commanders that dropped NO loot, it was the salvage that was valuable.

Kerfira	Posted - 2007.10.07 14:14:00 - [81] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Adapt. QFT! QFT! QFT! In EVE, possession IS the law! You only own what is in your ship (until someone blows it up), or what's in your hangar! ...if I had an ISK for every whining player like the OP, I'd not need to earn any more in my EVE career! PS: ALL WHINERS, READ MY SIG!!!! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
ArchMagos Fermi	Posted - 2007.10.19 09:17:00 - [82] Apparently there is another level to this mission thieving. A friend of mine (yeah, poor Caldari missioner sap) is having a gang of 4 salvage the wrecks which create a can afterward that they then are flipping. My suggestion, which I personally would find far more fun than salvaging (aka mining) wrecks, is to shoot the wrecks when they start! Particularly, watch them spend time flying to a wreck (they can't tractor other people's wrecks) and as soon as they get close, blow it up! Rinse and repeat -- it's a game... make it fun!
Danjira Ryuujin	Posted - 2007.10.19 10:43:00 - [83] If they're salvaging "your" wrecks just grab a cruiser and suicide gank them. Or Pay some 3 week old noob to do it for you so no one gets kill rights on you.
Trass Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.19 11:15:00 - [84] Edited by: Trass on 19/10/2007 11:18:08 Originally by: TheBelgarion in MOTSU because of that now we dont only have the 100-120 Mission runners and stuff but also 80 people who try to find mission deadspace and steal from mission runners Yep, steal and kill if mission runner shoot thief at least once (thief going back to station for better ship to kill guy who defended his wrecks). CCP like thiefs, they like whole idea of robbing and hunting down mission runners.
Coquillette Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.19 11:29:00 - [85] Wreck belongs to the guy who salvages it. Get over it.
Drenan	Posted - 2007.10.19 11:48:00 - [86] I used to complete L4's then go back and salvage in a specialist ship with 4 salvage 1's, tractors, mwd etc...but then the scavenging gangs became a real problem in the Motsu triangle. So I fitted a salvager and tractor to my Raven and now salvage the wrecks while I am shooting the next rat. Problem pretty much solved.
Will Stronghold Firing Squad	Posted - 2007.10.19 11:57:00 - [87] I tried a mission in low sec and took care of not using drones and once I got to the last level of angel extravaganza, 3 pirates warped in on me in commandships. So it does appear that they can probe out the mission deadspaces without problems even if there are no drones. It could be that they probe out the wrecks or something else in there. I would recommend either nerfing the mission deadspace scanning so that whatever is in there would be close to impossible to probe out or to change missions so that the activation gates open to only people who got the mission or are in gang with the ones that took the mission.
Aramendel Amarr North Face Force	Posted - 2007.10.19 13:00:00 - [88] Originally by: Will Stronghold I tried a mission in low sec and took care of not using drones and once I got to the last level of angel extravaganza, 3 pirates warped in on me in commandships. So it does appear that they can probe out the mission deadspaces without problems even if there are no drones.... Of cource you scan down missionrunners. But it is not "without problems". You were in the mission for at least 30 minutes by then - do you think they just scanned you down in 30 secs?
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.19 23:47:00 - [89] Originally by: Will Stronghold I tried a mission in low sec and took care of not using drones and once I got to the last level of angel extravaganza, 3 pirates warped in on me in commandships. So it does appear that they can probe out the mission deadspaces without problems even if there are no drones. It could be that they probe out the wrecks or something else in there. I would recommend either nerfing the mission deadspace scanning so that whatever is in there would be close to impossible to probe out or to change missions so that the activation gates open to only people who got the mission or are in gang with the ones that took the mission. No. Simply put, you're in space and taking a risk that someone might attack you. If you choose to fit your ship in such a fashion that it makes the mission easier, but more vulnerable to attack from others then that is your choice. If you choose to run a mission alone, with no support to maximise your profit then that is your choice. (The same applies to salvage, fit a salvage module and salvage during the mission). Finnaly you obviously failed to watch local, it takes a good 60seconds for even a close range probe to find a ship - you had your chance to get out: you didnt take it, and you paid the price. C. - sig designer - eve mail
Kyra Felann Gallente Red Eye .Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.20 07:39:00 - [90] Originally by: Braise Erighani no risk = no reward ninja salvagers take no risks If you are able to get yourself a reward without any risk to yourself, that means you're doing something right.



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