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Shakuul
Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.
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Posted - 2007.09.13 23:13:00 -
[1]
Obviously the one cardinal rule is "dont fly it if you cant afford to lose it", although I was interested in something more specific...
Suppose when your ship is destroyed every stack in cargo has a 50% survival change (so if you have 10mil trit half the time your loot can has 0 trit and the other half the time it has 10mil). If this is wrong please correct me, but I will assume it is the case for now.
Dominixes (which at one point I thought were the ship of choice for suicide freighter/etc killers) cost around 50mil market, plus 19mil to insure, and pay out 63mil when they die. This means for every dom that dies the gankers lose only (50mil+19mil-63mil) = 6mil ISK. Again if this is wrong please correct me.
Suppose it takes 10 Dominixes to kill a freighter in Jita (corrections on this figure welcome) (or maybe they follow it out of Jita, i dunno how suicide ganks actually work) before they get blasted by CONCORD. This costs them a paltry 60mil isk for the ships. However, I'll assume they spend 12mil per ship on fittings, which brings it up to 180mil for ships and fitting.
The real cost I think is the time. 10 coordinated NPCers in 0.0 might be able to bring in 400mil/hour+ (I've heard figures between 40-80mil per hour so im just lowballing off of that). However, suicide ganking is probably more fun than NPCing, so I'll put the time cost in at 220mil.
This means that it costs them 400mil to attack you. With an expected value of 50% of your total cargo, you have to be carrying at least 800mil for them to break even by attacking.
If you ignore time, it costs them only 180mil, so you only have to be carrying 360mil in cargo for them to break even.
Which estimate sounds more reasonable? Whats the most you can semi-safely carry in a freighter in high sec?
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.13 23:24:00 -
[2]
They usually don't risk it for less than 2 bil worth of cargo split in several stacks of at least 300-500 mil each. If you carry a single stack of items... they normally wouldn't bother for less than 4, maybe 5 bil (unless they suspect you to be a likely "opposing alliance" alt hauler), and even then it's rare to see a "single stack" target get hit. _
EVE GOLDEN RULES | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
Asriel Grumman
Minmatar Hi-Tech Industries
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Posted - 2007.09.13 23:56:00 -
[3]
very true on freighters...
however, they are normally are waiting for less HP ships like viators and other T2 haulers to come out with BPOs etc on board, they only take cruisers, or a couple of Tier one or two BS to take down very fast.
The adventure is if the cargo survives they are up, if not they get the buzz in having destroyed it I guess? A big gamble, and that adds the edge for them?
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.14 00:27:00 -
[4]
I've been attacked in a badger before when I only had a single secure container in my hold. I don't get why they bothered. Even if I died they wouldn't have gotten anything.
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Shakuul
Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.
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Posted - 2007.09.14 00:49:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Akita T They usually don't risk it for less than 2 bil worth of cargo split in several stacks of at least 300-500 mil each. If you carry a single stack of items... they normally wouldn't bother for less than 4, maybe 5 bil (unless they suspect you to be a likely "opposing alliance" alt hauler), and even then it's rare to see a "single stack" target get hit.
Thats surprising, I didn't think they would be so risk averse.
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Weakmind
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Posted - 2007.09.14 01:25:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Weakmind on 14/09/2007 01:25:44 In my oppinion this suicide ganking has gone too far. It is unbelievable that Concord is not able to provide better protection for the trade lanes of empire.
Infact it is outrageous, especially considering the minimum losses these people take. I say Concord needs to penalize these people more drastically to put an end to it.
For the record i've been lucky not to be suicde ganked, but more and more you hear about haulers/freighters being blown up and experience ships scanning your cargo.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.14 01:37:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Weakmind Edited by: Weakmind on 14/09/2007 01:25:44 In my oppinion this suicide ganking has gone too far. It is unbelievable that Concord is not able to provide better protection for the trade lanes of empire.
Infact it is outrageous, especially considering the minimum losses these people take. I say Concord needs to penalize these people more drastically to put an end to it.
For the record i've been lucky not to be suicde ganked, but more and more you hear about haulers/freighters being blown up and experience ships scanning your cargo.
I think the pirating is a good thing to have in the game... but I would agree the cost is not high enough. It seems that insurance should not be payed out to someone if they are destroyed by Concord. Or it should be payed at a reduced rate. That right there wouldn't remove suicide ganking people who carry very expensive things... but it would stop it from being so little risk.
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Luaren Avidius
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Posted - 2007.09.14 01:57:00 -
[8]
As someone who pilots a freighter I can say that I appreciate the fact that suicide ganking is a little bit out of hand, but at the same time I can also respect the fact that if someone wants to see my providence blown up really bad, there should be a way to do it.
About the only change I would make to the system right now would be to take away insurance payouts from those whos ships are lost while criminal flagged (basically every non 0.0 pirate would be forced to pick their targets harder), and possibly give freighters the ability to fit some kind of basic defenses (and at the same time make sure that none of them can fit cargo expanders).
If the items youre carrying are very small and very valuble, your best defense against suicide ganking is an ultra fast align time. A nanoed up T1 frig, an Interceptor, or blockade runners are all very good choices for this type of defense. My prorator with local istabs and nanos aligns about as fast as a T1 frig since the agility buff came out.
But yes, the best rule is to never undock anything that you cannot afford to lose.
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Weakmind
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Posted - 2007.09.14 02:37:00 -
[9]
I dont think lowsec needs changing.
Highsec is a different story though. I'd say no or a very reduced insurance payout if you suicide gank someone in highsec + a more steep security loss. This will make it still doable and potentially profitable, but get rid of the current system, which basically is a joke with the low costs of suiciding ships such as domis, myrmidons, brutixes etc after insurance payouts.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.09.14 03:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Shakuul Thats surprising, I didn't think they would be so risk averse.
The "big boys", the ones organized enough to go after freighters, they're doing this for profit, not kicks and giggles. Of course they are very risk-averse. Also, any idea how long they have to grind belt NPCs to recover the lost secstatus ?
The only reason highsec suicide ganks still happend is because the ganked freighter pilots are not risk-averse enough (or had the misfortune to be mistaken for a wartarget alt hauler... or actually ARE a wartarget alt hauler).
For smaller ships, especially T1 industrials... well, that's another story altogether. There you can get suicide-ganked even for practically nothing in the hold, or just for the sheer heck of it. I mean, hey, you can get succesfully suicide-ganked by TRIAL accounts couple of minutes old if you don't even bother tanking your hauler properly. So, of course, there's no incentive NOT to do it, if you can do it with next to no effort and/or consequences. _
EVE GOLDEN RULES | Char creation guide | Stack-nerfing explained |
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Hanoi Hana
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Posted - 2007.09.14 04:02:00 -
[11]
I bought an Impel, the Amarr Transport Ship (not blockade runner), and I absolutely freaking love it. It's one of my favorite ships now, and I have invested a lot of money in setting it up for safe runs. I originally bought it to ferry 500mil worth of Heavy Energy Neutralizer IIs from Rens to Jita right after the masterminded EVE-wide price fixing.
Anyway, back to the original topic, as long as you don't have a freighter-full of expensive goods, buy a Transport Ship and play around with the fittings. There are really good reasons why it has become one of my favorite ships to fit and fly when necessary.
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Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.09.14 04:14:00 -
[12]
Quote: If the items youre carrying are very small and very valuble, your best defense against suicide ganking is an ultra fast align time. A nanoed up T1 frig, an Interceptor, or blockade runners are all very good choices for this type of defense. My prorator with local istabs and nanos aligns about as fast as a T1 frig since the agility buff came out.
I've never understood, what's wrong with hauling "small, expensive stuff" in a fully-tanked BS? Or better yet, a covops-cloaked covops ship?
in high-traffic systems, I'd find it very unlikely that hi-sec gankers would target anything other than haulers. Maybe I'm missing something but,,
But I still maintain, I have no idea why people insist on putting the "small, expensive stuff" into a paper-thin fat-target. End of the day, a shuttle is the best hi-sec protection for your expensive implants and blueprints.
Improve Market Competition!
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Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.09.14 06:08:00 -
[13]
I never run with a freighter with more than 2 billion in the cargohold.
It is TOO easy to go watch TV and make AFK several runs with multiple alts than freekout and panic everytime you jump throuh a gate and see a Domi.
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.09.14 11:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: If the items youre carrying are very small and very valuble, your best defense against suicide ganking is an ultra fast align time. A nanoed up T1 frig, an Interceptor, or blockade runners are all very good choices for this type of defense. My prorator with local istabs and nanos aligns about as fast as a T1 frig since the agility buff came out.
I've never understood, what's wrong with hauling "small, expensive stuff" in a fully-tanked BS? Or better yet, a covops-cloaked covops ship?
A fully-tanked BS is a relatively hard target. But all you're really doing is increasing the cost of ganking you - you will still get hit if that stuff is expensive enough. With gank squads that can chew up a freighter, a tanked BS isn't going to be a big problem for them.
The covops-cloaked ship is a fairly good option, but it is risky. The gates in high-sec hub systems tend to be fairly crowded, so if you go this route, you're going to need a backup plan in case you get decloaked. Getting caught decloaking is a fairly good sign you have something to hide, and will attract attention. I would only ever rely on using a cloak as a supplement to being very fast into warp, not as a replacement.
Warp to zero and a very fast align time are really the strongest tools in your arsenal if you want to (or have to for insanely valuable stuff) break the ganking value rule, or want to avoid people who are doing it for giggles rather than profit.
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs in high-traffic systems, I'd find it very unlikely that hi-sec gankers would target anything other than haulers. Maybe I'm missing something but,,
I've been cargo scanned in all sorts of ships, from frigates to battleships. The gankers know people's hauling options just as well as the haulers themselves do. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.14 13:35:00 -
[15]
100km bookmarks that are straight out of the station help a lot also. Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here |
Maxpie
Cross Roads
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Posted - 2007.09.14 16:41:00 -
[16]
I prefer covops, but obviously it doesn't hold much. I'm warping away or jumping before they have any clue.
As for insurance, there really shouldn't even be insurance in the game. In rl (yes, I know, it's a game) insurance contracts explicitly exclude loss from acts of war and from engaging in criminal acts. This is logical and is many times more logical in-game where ships are constantly destroyed.
He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.09.14 17:51:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Dr Slurm 100km bookmarks that are straight out of the station help a lot also.
Yep, they certainly do. Though if you're in something really really slow (thinking freighters here), you may want to make it considerably more than 100km if you're really paranoid. In the time it takes to get a freighter into warp from your BM location, it's possible for a fast interceptor to get close enough to warp the gank squad onto you. 100km is also rather predictable, so they could camp that point, especially if it's still in the same grid so they can see you use it repeatedly.
I'd recommend a point at least on the next grid, and if you visit there regularly, go for at least 1000km. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Dantae Montoya
Forsaken Resistance
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Posted - 2007.09.14 18:58:00 -
[18]
dont fly a covert ops ship through high sec with 100+ mil in rigs.
they go pop real fast. have to give them credit, they caught me off guard and stupid.
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Aerpe
Minmatar Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative
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Posted - 2007.09.14 19:48:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Aerpe on 14/09/2007 19:50:14
If it's low volume high value goods you should hire me. I'll gladly pay collateral.
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Nocturnal Avenger
The Ankou The Reckoning.
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Posted - 2007.09.15 11:49:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Shakuul The real cost I think is the time. 10 coordinated NPCers in 0.0 might be able to bring in 400mil/hour+ (I've heard figures between 40-80mil per hour so im just lowballing off of that). However, suicide ganking is probably more fun than NPCing, so I'll put the time cost in at 220mil.
This means that it costs them 400mil to attack you. With an expected value of 50% of your total cargo, you have to be carrying at least 800mil for them to break even by attacking.
Time is a sunk cost and should thus not be included.
If you expect a 50% loot survival chance, you should (theoretically) attack anything larger than twice your loss. To make it worth your time, perhaps only attack when loot is more than 3 times your loss.
- Carebear Pirate - |
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.15 16:51:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Shadarle on 15/09/2007 16:51:34
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: If the items youre carrying are very small and very valuble, your best defense against suicide ganking is an ultra fast align time. A nanoed up T1 frig, an Interceptor, or blockade runners are all very good choices for this type of defense. My prorator with local istabs and nanos aligns about as fast as a T1 frig since the agility buff came out.
I've never understood, what's wrong with hauling "small, expensive stuff" in a fully-tanked BS? Or better yet, a covops-cloaked covops ship?
in high-traffic systems, I'd find it very unlikely that hi-sec gankers would target anything other than haulers. Maybe I'm missing something but,,
But I still maintain, I have no idea why people insist on putting the "small, expensive stuff" into a paper-thin fat-target. End of the day, a shuttle is the best hi-sec protection for your expensive implants and blueprints.
Or better yet a Command Ship. Command ships have decent cargo bays and can tank FAR more than a BS can. I'd love to see someone pop my Nighthawk or Vulture with a gank squad before they all die to concord. I'd feel safe with a 20 billion isk BPO in my cargohold.
Of course the best solution around is to always use secure containers. This way they can't see what you have anyways. And if everyone has secure containers they aren't going to randomly pop you in the hopes that it has something valuable in it and that it doesn't have a password.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.15 18:01:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 15/09/2007 16:51:34
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: If the items youre carrying are very small and very valuble, your best defense against suicide ganking is an ultra fast align time. A nanoed up T1 frig, an Interceptor, or blockade runners are all very good choices for this type of defense. My prorator with local istabs and nanos aligns about as fast as a T1 frig since the agility buff came out.
I've never understood, what's wrong with hauling "small, expensive stuff" in a fully-tanked BS? Or better yet, a covops-cloaked covops ship?
in high-traffic systems, I'd find it very unlikely that hi-sec gankers would target anything other than haulers. Maybe I'm missing something but,,
But I still maintain, I have no idea why people insist on putting the "small, expensive stuff" into a paper-thin fat-target. End of the day, a shuttle is the best hi-sec protection for your expensive implants and blueprints.
Or better yet a Command Ship. Command ships have decent cargo bays and can tank FAR more than a BS can. I'd love to see someone pop my Nighthawk or Vulture with a gank squad before they all die to concord. I'd feel safe with a 20 billion isk BPO in my cargohold.
Of course the best solution around is to always use secure containers. This way they can't see what you have anyways. And if everyone has secure containers they aren't going to randomly pop you in the hopes that it has something valuable in it and that it doesn't have a password.
Last I heard you could snoop secure containers and the password isn't active until its anchored which I doubt you are going to do in the middle of getting ganked. Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here |
Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.15 19:15:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Dr Slurm
Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 15/09/2007 16:51:34
Originally by: Kylar Renpurs
Quote: If the items youre carrying are very small and very valuble, your best defense against suicide ganking is an ultra fast align time. A nanoed up T1 frig, an Interceptor, or blockade runners are all very good choices for this type of defense. My prorator with local istabs and nanos aligns about as fast as a T1 frig since the agility buff came out.
I've never understood, what's wrong with hauling "small, expensive stuff" in a fully-tanked BS? Or better yet, a covops-cloaked covops ship?
in high-traffic systems, I'd find it very unlikely that hi-sec gankers would target anything other than haulers. Maybe I'm missing something but,,
But I still maintain, I have no idea why people insist on putting the "small, expensive stuff" into a paper-thin fat-target. End of the day, a shuttle is the best hi-sec protection for your expensive implants and blueprints.
Or better yet a Command Ship. Command ships have decent cargo bays and can tank FAR more than a BS can. I'd love to see someone pop my Nighthawk or Vulture with a gank squad before they all die to concord. I'd feel safe with a 20 billion isk BPO in my cargohold.
Of course the best solution around is to always use secure containers. This way they can't see what you have anyways. And if everyone has secure containers they aren't going to randomly pop you in the hopes that it has something valuable in it and that it doesn't have a password.
Last I heard you could snoop secure containers and the password isn't active until its anchored which I doubt you are going to do in the middle of getting ganked.
Ah, I did not realize that about them not being active until anchored. That is rather silly. Not very secure either, heh. Some containers can even be activated in hangars and such tho I thought.
Tanking Setups Compared
Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained |
Taikun
Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis
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Posted - 2007.09.17 23:47:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Shadarle Ah, I did not realize that about them not being active until anchored. That is rather silly. Not very secure either, heh. Some containers can even be activated in hangars and such tho I thought.
You have been able to see inside of containers for months if not years now.
It is not the containers that is 'silly'... it is people that continue to perpetuate falsehoods and lies because of stupidity and/or ignorance.
Taikun -----------------------------------
For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good. |
Kylar Renpurs
Dusk Blade
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Posted - 2007.09.18 00:28:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Or better yet a Command Ship. Command ships have decent cargo bays and can tank FAR more than a BS can. I'd love to see someone pop my Nighthawk or Vulture with a gank squad before they all die to concord. I'd feel safe with a 20 billion isk BPO in my cargohold.
Exactly. If it's worth lots, protect it with lots.
Quote: dont fly a covert ops ship through high sec with 100+ mil in rigs.
they go pop real fast. have to give them credit, they caught me off guard and stupid.
Uh,,, how did that happen? When carrying around over 4 bil in implants and BPs once, I just slapped on the covops cloak and flew. You're visible for about 0.5 seconds while you decloak from jump and recloak for warp, during which time you've already warped off because if anybody did see you they're still asking "what was that ship?" since they wont set off SB's in hi sec without good reason.
Quote: 100km bookmarks that are straight out of the station help a lot also.
Nothing looks cooler than a freighter snowballing through jita traffic :D
Improve Market Competition!
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.18 00:30:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Taikun
Originally by: Shadarle Ah, I did not realize that about them not being active until anchored. That is rather silly. Not very secure either, heh. Some containers can even be activated in hangars and such tho I thought.
You have been able to see inside of containers for months if not years now.
It is not the containers that is 'silly'... it is people that continue to perpetuate falsehoods and lies because of stupidity and/or ignorance.
Taikun
Neato, didn't realize StaplerBoy was still following me around. Lose any more money to rogue staplers?
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