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Empire marketslave
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Posted - 2007.09.15 13:27:00 -
[1]
To the people complaining about salvage theft I urge you to be careful what you wish for. LetÆs look back at a simpler time of the Cold War expansion. There were no supercaps, hulks, and the T2 cap recharger monopoly was in full effect. Back then there were 2 things people complained about. The prices of T2 cap rechargers and ore theft.
People were helpless to protect their ore or unwanted ore depending on what side of the fence you were on. People begged CCP to allow some way to protect the ore they had mined and the other side said to use secure cans.
Eventually the Red Moon Rising Patch came and with it came Jet Can flagging, where if someone took our stuff you could shoot them. Miners rejoiced as they read the patch notes that they could finally do something about it. And ôThievesö cried out for reason.
Well as soon as the Sever stabilized a new problem showed up. They take your ore you shoot them you come back in a t2 fitted BS and blow up their new shiney hulk and get your t2 strip miners and make more isk off of your loot than the ore they used to get in addition to any ore they might want to take. Or the other trick was to swap can so the people who didnÆt shoot back could no longer safely take their ore.
So here we are today in an identical situation. You feel that the salvage rights are yours and salvage hunters feel that it is salvage right to the first there.
So remember hat CCP will never completely kill a profession just make it a challenge to both sides rather than one. And who knows they might make it the same rules where you can shoot them but they can shoot back which can be solved by them bringing a combat alt to 2 vs. 1 you.
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Badhands
Gallente DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.15 13:47:00 -
[2]
The kind of people who whine don't want to hear this. Just let CCP either make it like cans or don't... and if they do, I'll be stealing salvage in a pvp ship with one salvager fitted
Originally by: Player Guide
Don't expect CONCORD to keep you immune to attacks or ship losses.
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Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2007.09.15 13:48:00 -
[3]
If people whine hard enough they might make can flagging only apply to jetcans and not lootcans. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions |
Empire marketslave
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Posted - 2007.09.15 13:57:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Adonis 4174 If people whine hard enough they might make can flagging only apply to jetcans and not lootcans.
which is my main point
just like
jet can flagging nos warp to zero WCS Nano ships super cap changes t2 prices
need i go on?? and this is just the changes in the last 2 years from the forum army
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Leemon
No Quarter. Academy Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.09.15 14:10:00 -
[5]
Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me.
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SUNscatcher
Caldari Pacificsun
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Posted - 2007.09.15 14:11:00 -
[6]
the solution ccp should have implemented for ore theft was that you could aggro the theif without it resulting in an aggro against you. The same type of system should be used for "concord sansanctioned bounties" so that bounty hunting was something that could be a real profession. |
Adonis 4174
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Posted - 2007.09.15 14:14:00 -
[7]
The WCS nerf was not instigated by the forums. I can state this with confidence since in spite of the sensor dampening effect when online, WCS do not reduce your max cap by 75%, do not reduce your armour to a half, do not quarter your shield recharge and boosting and are not highslot items. If the forums had their way all these would be the case. ----- Visible Implants - good for so many occasions |
Empire marketslave
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Posted - 2007.09.15 14:26:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Adonis 4174 The WCS nerf was not instigated by the forums. I can state this with confidence since in spite of the sensor dampening effect when online, WCS do not reduce your max cap by 75%, do not reduce your armour to a half, do not quarter your shield recharge and boosting and are not highslot items. If the forums had their way all these would be the case.
yes in a way. this is the other end of the whine spectrum where the offensive got a better deal than the defender(miner).
Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me.
thats what people said before and they ended up just getting flagged so they can come back and shoot back with a bigger ship
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Bakhal Yttrites
Minmatar When The Children Sing
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Posted - 2007.09.15 14:31:00 -
[9]
Salvage tends to refer to one of two circumstances, one of which refers to ships in danger of sinking, and the other having to do with abandoned ships or flotsam/jetsam. The "flotsam" is more applicable to "Salvage" in Eve.
Unfortunately, the definitions that most use for this are in "1910 Brussels Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules with Respect to Assistance and Salvage at Sea," which I don't have access to.
However, the concept of Salvage in Eve is to encourage independent salvors to do their thing. I think that the traditional rights of salvors to flotsam should be upheld in Eve. Wreckage belongs to whomever can get to it first. Mission runners have an advantage to this as their flotsam is generally hidden. Ratters are at a disadvantage because they prey on ships in much more public spaces.
Nothing wrong with the system. You want to secure almost certain salvage rights, salvage your missions. Otherwise, you'll face competition if you don't salvage immediately.
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Ponderous Thunderstroke
Republic War Machine Industries
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Posted - 2007.09.15 14:36:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me.
thats what people said before and they ended up just getting flagged so they can come back and shoot back with a bigger ship
The differance is, the Hulk isn't going to fight off your standard jetcan thief with its mighty 3 strips as weapons, whereas a mission boat can be made to be somewhat PVP-worthy and slap on a salvager. True, the people that use dedicated salvage ships will be at the mercy of the thief, but the people who mission-and-salvage all in one, will be fighting back. The two situations are slightly differant, in terms of the recourse that the maker of salvage has.
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Empire marketslave
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Posted - 2007.09.15 16:27:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke
Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me.
thats what people said before and they ended up just getting flagged so they can come back and shoot back with a bigger ship
yea i am not really taking sides on who isore right and wrong or who that wreak really belongs to more of a be careful of what you wish for sometimes the fix is worse than the way it was
The differance is, the Hulk isn't going to fight off your standard jetcan thief with its mighty 3 strips as weapons, whereas a mission boat can be made to be somewhat PVP-worthy and slap on a salvager. True, the people that use dedicated salvage ships will be at the mercy of the thief, but the people who mission-and-salvage all in one, will be fighting back. The two situations are slightly differant, in terms of the recourse that the maker of salvage has.
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Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.15 16:48:00 -
[12]
no more carebear nerfs plz.
sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo.
there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline.
sheesh. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.15 16:48:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke
Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me.
thats what people said before and they ended up just getting flagged so they can come back and shoot back with a bigger ship
It is not the only difference, salvaging require several second where the ship is at low speed and an easy target near each of the wrecks, while can flipping can be done in 1 second with a shuttle.
So killing the "salvager thief" ship I will stop his activity, while killing a jetcan flipper can be a pleasurable revenge but dont stop the ore theft, as the minerals are now in the thief can.
The differance is, the Hulk isn't going to fight off your standard jetcan thief with its mighty 3 strips as weapons, whereas a mission boat can be made to be somewhat PVP-worthy and slap on a salvager. True, the people that use dedicated salvage ships will be at the mercy of the thief, but the people who mission-and-salvage all in one, will be fighting back. The two situations are slightly differant, in terms of the recourse that the maker of salvage has.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.15 16:51:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Cornucopian no more carebear nerfs plz.
sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo.
there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline.
sheesh.
So the one taking salvage without any risk is "hardcore PvP men full of balls" while the one that want to shot him (without Concord help) is "whimpy carebear"?
Strange, I had different images of both playstiles.
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Jacob Mei
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Posted - 2007.09.15 17:03:00 -
[15]
Id like to point out a flaw in this example.
With mining, the most offensive potental you can present is 5 t2 med drones times the number of miners currently on the field, assuming each miner can field 5 t2 med drones.
However with Salvaging, the chances of fully armed combat ships being in the mission area with you that are friendly is significantly greater.
Comparing vessels meant for and equiped for mining to vessels meant for and equiped for combat is a rather poor example.
Further more, depending on the location of the mission, if its in deadspace and how deep it is, a sigificant amount of time is present for a mission group to shoot down the theif, complete the salavage operation, and move on before the theif can return in a t2 fitted battleship where as miners are rather easy to locate.
Regardless however, EvE is about consinquence. If all the salvagers want is the chance to retaliate against the theives without Concord attacking them for defending their earnings then by all means let them. If the Salvage theif is attacked for stealing, he has the right to go after the one he was stealing from. The primary problem has been that the odds are stacked in the thieves favor and the salvagers want the playing feild leveled. If that means taking the risk that the salvage theif will come back in a BS with t2 gear to wail on the salvager then so be it.
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Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.15 17:14:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Cornucopian no more carebear nerfs plz.
sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo.
there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline.
sheesh.
salvage as a profession clears up server load because all the wrecks disappear. if it is aggro flagged all the belt salvagers will be pwned by cloaked people waiting at ideal range, hows that for carebear. Also, protect your salvage, take a dedicated salvager with you, or as the rest of the eve community seems to be doing: create an alt account with a salvager.
The only reason people are stealing your salvage is pure laziness. nothing more, nothing less. get a corpmate to help you out. he salvages one mission, you the next. It's called teamwork.
I really dont think we need aggro flagging on salvage, sorry .
So the one taking salvage without any risk is "hardcore PvP men full of balls" while the one that want to shot him (without Concord help) is "whimpy carebear"?
Strange, I had different images of both playstiles.
----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.15 17:15:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Cornucopian no more carebear nerfs plz.
sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo.
there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline.
sheesh.
So the one taking salvage without any risk is "hardcore PvP men full of balls" while the one that want to shot him (without Concord help) is "whimpy carebear"?
Strange, I had different images of both playstiles.
salvage as a profession clears up server load because all the wrecks disappear. if it is aggro flagged all the belt salvagers will be pwned by cloaked people waiting at ideal range, hows that for carebear. Also, protect your salvage, take a dedicated salvager with you, or as the rest of the eve community seems to be doing: create an alt account with a salvager.
The only reason people are stealing your salvage is pure laziness. nothing more, nothing less. get a corpmate to help you out. he salvages one mission, you the next. It's called teamwork.
I really dont think we need aggro flagging on salvage, sorry ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.15 18:11:00 -
[18]
remember.
CCP MADE the change to allow "wreck theft" (beforehand you have to loot before you salvage, getting alot of salvagers killed)
to make salvaging a miniprofession. and....
to drive people out of high sec =P...
it is working as intended =P
thats why the mission hubs are not nice.... go find a quiet corner of low sec with a mediocore agent.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.15 18:51:00 -
[19]
So many poor arguments. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone who posts threads like these thinks about them.
To OP: A mining vessel who attacks an ore thief is an idiot. A mining vessel who has guards that attack the ore thief is smart. Originally, there was no recompense for the ore being stolen. Now, at least, their is risk on their part.
To Petrothian: CCP never said they were allowing salvaging item-laden wrecks for the purposes of a salvaging profession. I personally think they did it because not every item is worth picking up and it's annoying to have to get every ship with an item in it within 1.5 km before being able to salvage. It sped up salvaging a fair amount by allowing people to turn on salvagers before the item was in loot range and they didn't have to pick up items they didn't want.
My 2 isk: You didn't spend the ammo on blowing up the wreck, you didn't risk your ship by blowing up the wreck, therefore, you don't have any rights to that wreck. You did nothing to earn that wreck short of launching a probe that costs less than you'll get from a half decent cruiser salvage. I think the fact that taking an item causes agro and taking the whole ship doesn't is just a slip up on CCP's part.
Nothing in EVE is without risk or cost. Salvage theft right now has neither.
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Anaalys Fluuterby
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.15 20:41:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 15/09/2007 19:07:01 So many poor arguments. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone who posts threads like these thinks about them.
To OP: A mining vessel who attacks an ore thief is an idiot. A mining vessel who has guards that attack the ore thief is smart. Originally, there was no recompense for the ore being stolen. Now, at least, there is risk to the ore thief.
To Petrothian & Cornucopian: CCP never said they were allowing salvaging item-laden wrecks for the purposes of a salvaging profession. I personally think they did it because not every item is worth picking up and it's annoying to have to get every ship with an item in it within 1.5 km before being able to salvage. It sped up salvaging a fair amount by allowing people to turn on salvagers before the item was in loot range and they didn't have to pick up items they didn't want.
My 2 isk: You didn't spend the ammo on blowing up the wreck, you didn't risk your ship by blowing up the wreck, therefore, you don't have any rights to that wreck. You did nothing to earn that wreck short of launching a probe that costs less than you'll get from a half decent cruiser salvage. I think the fact that taking an item causes agro and taking the whole ship doesn't is just a slip up on CCP's part.
Nothing in EVE is without risk or cost. Salvage theft right now has neither.
You should read the quote below if you think this is a "slip"
From Prism X:
Quote:
But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
You can read the thread HERE
Simply, Salvaging is a mini-profession, it is not a mission runner's entitlement program. And yes, I *am* a mission runner.
If you have problems with people salvaging your junk laying around move to a less populated system.
Originally by: CCP Chronotis
Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.09.15 20:55:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Cornucopian
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Originally by: Cornucopian no more carebear nerfs plz.
sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo.
there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline.
sheesh.
So the one taking salvage without any risk is "hardcore PvP men full of balls" while the one that want to shot him (without Concord help) is "whimpy carebear"?
Strange, I had different images of both playstiles.
salvage as a profession clears up server load because all the wrecks disappear. if it is aggro flagged all the belt salvagers will be pwned by cloaked people waiting at ideal range, hows that for carebear. Also, protect your salvage, take a dedicated salvager with you, or as the rest of the eve community seems to be doing: create an alt account with a salvager.
The only reason people are stealing your salvage is pure laziness. nothing more, nothing less. get a corpmate to help you out. he salvages one mission, you the next. It's called teamwork.
I really dont think we need aggro flagging on salvage, sorry
Take your own advice and get someone to protect you while salvaging then, if you get flagged for stealing wrecks.
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Le Skunk
Low Sec Liberators
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Posted - 2007.09.15 20:55:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Empire marketslave ...
Well as soon as the Sever stabilized a new problem showed up...
The server has stabalized?
SKUNK
Originally by: Jeximo I also like how your cat only managed to hit the enter button when he/she jumped on your keyboard.
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shinsushi
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Posted - 2007.09.15 21:42:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Cornucopian no more carebear nerfs plz.
sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo.
there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline.
sheesh.
That is unless your a pirate, ore-thief, wreck thief, or scammer. Then Eve-online accomodates solo-play.
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Jamison
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Posted - 2007.09.16 07:32:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me.
Agreed 100%
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Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
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Posted - 2007.09.16 07:39:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jamison
Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me.
Agreed 100%
I can support this only if wreck flagging is applied to pvp losses
Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts |
Petrothian Tong
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.16 07:53:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 15/09/2007 19:07:01 So many poor arguments. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone who posts threads like these thinks about them.
To OP: A mining vessel who attacks an ore thief is an idiot. A mining vessel who has guards that attack the ore thief is smart. Originally, there was no recompense for the ore being stolen. Now, at least, there is risk to the ore thief.
To Petrothian & Cornucopian: CCP never said they were allowing salvaging item-laden wrecks for the purposes of a salvaging profession. I personally think they did it because not every item is worth picking up and it's annoying to have to get every ship with an item in it within 1.5 km before being able to salvage. It sped up salvaging a fair amount by allowing people to turn on salvagers before the item was in loot range and they didn't have to pick up items they didn't want.
My 2 isk: You didn't spend the ammo on blowing up the wreck, you didn't risk your ship by blowing up the wreck, therefore, you don't have any rights to that wreck. You did nothing to earn that wreck short of launching a probe that costs less than you'll get from a half decent cruiser salvage. I think the fact that taking an item causes agro and taking the whole ship doesn't is just a slip up on CCP's part.
Nothing in EVE is without risk or cost. Salvage theft right now has neither.
http://www.eve-search.com/thread/580679/page/2#59
Please look at what CCP Prism X said:
Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
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Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
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Posted - 2007.09.16 08:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
Nothing in EVE is without risk or cost. Salvage theft right now has neither.
Funny the same thing was said when npc corp characters were mass looting empire war wrecks and you know what was said about the people that made threads like these?
Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts |
Some Caldari
Caldari Shadow Warrioz
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Posted - 2007.09.16 08:23:00 -
[28]
1. Find a less populated system to mission in, Christ there's over 5000 of them you don't need the very best paying agent anyway since you just do it for the salvage and bounties. 2. Do mission safe in the knowledge that local only has you in it. 3.??? 4. Profit!
Also not sure if this is right or not so correct me if I'm wrong but you can't get probed out in deadspace so if you must mission in a hub accept only deadspace encounters? ------------
Originally by: Banana Torres Gurls are overrated, they nick your money and hurt your ears. Just so you can have limited access to their soft and squishy bits.
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Bo Bojangles
Minmatar High4Life
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Posted - 2007.09.16 08:41:00 -
[29]
I really don't understand what the fuss is about here. Everywhere I go there's wrecks just left there left and right.
Occasionally, when I just want to do something mindless, I'll take my destroyer out and clean up the belts or known mission
areas. I haven't heard a complaint in local yet. With the sheer number of discarded wrecks out there, do you really have
to salvage your own? I like to have a full complement of weapons on my missioning ships, and just blow off the salvage
until I feel like pulling out the Thrasher with it's Highs loaded up with salvagers and stock up in a quick way.
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Cornucopian
Gallente Dutch Omega United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.16 09:11:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby
Originally by: Allestin Villimar Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 15/09/2007 19:07:01 So many poor arguments. I'm beginning to wonder if anyone who posts threads like these thinks about them.
To OP: A mining vessel who attacks an ore thief is an idiot. A mining vessel who has guards that attack the ore thief is smart. Originally, there was no recompense for the ore being stolen. Now, at least, there is risk to the ore thief.
To Petrothian & Cornucopian: CCP never said they were allowing salvaging item-laden wrecks for the purposes of a salvaging profession. I personally think they did it because not every item is worth picking up and it's annoying to have to get every ship with an item in it within 1.5 km before being able to salvage. It sped up salvaging a fair amount by allowing people to turn on salvagers before the item was in loot range and they didn't have to pick up items they didn't want.
My 2 isk: You didn't spend the ammo on blowing up the wreck, you didn't risk your ship by blowing up the wreck, therefore, you don't have any rights to that wreck. You did nothing to earn that wreck short of launching a probe that costs less than you'll get from a half decent cruiser salvage. I think the fact that taking an item causes agro and taking the whole ship doesn't is just a slip up on CCP's part.
Nothing in EVE is without risk or cost. Salvage theft right now has neither.
You should read the quote below if you think this is a "slip"
From Prism X:
Quote:
But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former.
You can read the thread HERE
Simply, Salvaging is a mini-profession, it is not a mission runner's entitlement program. And yes, I *am* a mission runner.
If you have problems with people salvaging your junk laying around move to a less populated system.
yeah. We're about done here I think. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer."
Originally by: Royaldo
complete win by Cornucopian!
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