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Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.16 09:27:00 - [31] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 16/09/2007 09:28:04 Originally by: Cornucopian Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby You should read the quote below if you think this is a "slip" From Prism X: Quote: But honestly (and seriously.. cause the above is a joke), I'm not promising anything is going to change nor that, if it does, it will solve all the problems in the multiverse. And that historical fact is quite relevant. If we end up having to chose between the salvagers right to salvage whatever he finds and the mission runners right to salvage his own loot without competition and getting rights to pwn empire salvagers, we'd probably go for the former. You can read the thread HERE Simply, Salvaging is a mini-profession, it is not a mission runner's entitlement program. And yes, I am a mission runner. If you have problems with people salvaging your junk laying around move to a less populated system. yeah. We're about done here I think. Nice to cite only part of the whole argument. Prism X was replying to someone asking to make the wrecks impossible to salvage without "owning" them, not for a aggression flag. Those are very different things. Even pirating is a profession, but you can't pirate in high sec freely.
Flex Nebura Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.16 09:31:00 - [32] Originally by: Ponderous Thunderstroke Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me. thats what people said before and they ended up just getting flagged so they can come back and shoot back with a bigger ship The differance is, the Hulk isn't going to fight off your standard jetcan thief with its mighty 3 strips as weapons, whereas a mission boat can be made to be somewhat PVP-worthy and slap on a salvager. True, the people that use dedicated salvage ships will be at the mercy of the thief, but the people who mission-and-salvage all in one, will be fighting back. The two situations are slightly differant, in terms of the recourse that the maker of salvage has. a Hulk is pretty much the same as a mission fitted ship.. easy prey for those that would kill it. If ninja salvaging is made to equal stealing from a can, you can be sure that a lot more people will start doing it.. This time for the purpose of killing BIG PHAT PIMPED OUT missionrunning ships. I would sure concider it..
Jacob Holland Gallente 19th Star Logistics	Posted - 2007.09.16 09:36:00 - [33] Originally by: Jamison Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me. Agreed 100% It's worth noting that, in the real world, the laws of salvage are entirely first come first served. Maritime Salvage holds some of the best examples, you can spend millions organising an operation but if someone else gets to the particular ship's strongroom before you then you're S.O.L. I find it as annoying as the next homonid lifeform when someone warps into the wreck cluster I'm methodically salvaging and races around "the best wrecks" picking up what they can grab, especially as my salvage ship is armed and if they were to grab a single piece of loot I could make their lives interesting. However, in those situations, I think back to can flagging and the first corp mining op we did after the system came in; we lost more than an hour of the operation, a scary amount of potential ore, while we waited for guards to scare off the Deimos who was stealing ore in an attempt to get one of us to fire on him. No, flagging people who salvage wrecks you've made isn't the answer. There is no need for a tool to enforce rights that you do not have. Until you get it onto your ship it isn't really yours. If salvage is your bread and butter then how did someone who had to look for it beat you to the punch? -- Originally by: cordy Respect to IAC .Your one of the few people who truly deserve to own and live in the space you are in.
Rilder Caldari THC LTD Dogs of War.	Posted - 2007.09.16 09:58:00 - [34] If someone steals your wrecks just blow the wrecks up, if a 'Salvage theif' knows that he isn't gonna get any salvage then he'll probably leave, And don't go all "BUT ITS SALVAGE WHY WASTE IT" If your not salvaging it then your not getting it so mise well deprive anyone else from getting it also. --
T Than Hematite Rose Bionic Dawn	Posted - 2007.09.16 11:27:00 - [35] the entire definition of salvage seems to be over the heads of some here. learn what salvage is. personally i think loot in wrecks should be the same, fair game for anyone. its aboard a wreck, and as such is also salvage really.
Usarua	Posted - 2007.09.16 14:12:00 - [36] Originally by: Badhands The kind of people who whine don't want to hear this. Just let CCP either make it like cans or don't... and if they do, I'll be stealing salvage in a pvp ship with one salvager fitted already does this and will kill someone who stops my salvage attempt. whats the point of learning all that it takes to salvage a wreck when people kill them and just leave them there to rot? waste of money I say. the kind of thinking about flagging it is "if I cant have it noone can" thinking. thats exactly the kind of ideology that caused the whining which caused CCP to create the jet can flag. jettison should be free for all anyway. use secure cans, its what they wre built for.
MarRecky	Posted - 2007.10.22 12:42:00 - [37] Heh... This discussion is unbelievable! Arguments of CCPers and thieves are not only stupid... I can't name this... Last Sunday (21-st of Oct.) thief started to salvage my wrecks just when I finished PIRATE INVASION lev 4 in 0.8 system, when I was there!... so please do not give me a ** about salvaging "forgotten wrecks"! Also please stop screaming about "how dangerous it is for me if thief starts PvP"! Let me decide, CCPers! You did this way with loot, just DO THE SAME WITH WRECKS. It is LOWSEC and 0.0 for thieves and pirates - and it's about 80% of EVE! Leave some space for carebears, heroes have enough space! Hmmm... I'm really angry... I'm afraid that you CCPers are too much on thieves side, and I do not like it. Maybe too many honest people still play EVE now, after all BoB ** a.s.o., but do not forget: it may change!
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar The Smithzonian Institute	Posted - 2007.10.22 13:22:00 - [38] Same solution as with any other problem in EVE. -protect the owners in high sec, and anything goes in low sec -allow players to drop salvage rights to wrecks, via individual check box on wreck, and/or default action setting in preferences -put a timer on all wrecks, 30mins and its free for all
Tral Kul	Posted - 2007.10.22 15:01:00 - [39] Originally by: Cornucopian no more carebear nerfs plz. sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo. there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline. sheesh. You know this isn't a nerf, all people want is the chance to fight back fairly as it stands right now you can't shot someone who is effectively stealing from you. I for one wouldn't mind making it like jet cans, sure there's still risk but I nor most others aren't asking for slavaging to be risk free. Just give me the option to fight back without geting concorddukened to hell, as it is now you have 2 options, run or blow up your own damn loot
Jonathan Calvert Minmatar The Smithzonian Institute	Posted - 2007.10.22 15:29:00 - [40] Originally by: Tral Kul Originally by: Cornucopian no more carebear nerfs plz. sumwun stowle my sawlvage, boohoooooo. there are more than enough tools to stop salvage thieves. How about working together? a dedicated salvager in a mission run. EVE aint singleplayer helly kitty offline. sheesh. You know this isn't a nerf, all people want is the chance to fight back fairly as it stands right now you can't shot someone who is effectively stealing from you. I for one wouldn't mind making it like jet cans, sure there's still risk but I nor most others aren't asking for slavaging to be risk free. Just give me the option to fight back without geting concorddukened to hell, as it is now you have 2 options, run or blow up your own damn loot Not that this is real life, but look at it the same way. You cant shoot someone stealing from you without consequence either. The police are supposed to do that. So make it the same penalty. Someone salvages a wreck or takes your loot or ore in high sec, they get concorddoken. But combine this with a 30min timer, so if you dont choose to salvage, anyone can.
Jinx Jethro	Posted - 2007.10.22 15:36:00 - [41] Well, I don't tend to salvage when a person is still around shooting. But if it's just floating around, or some miners are in the belt making no attempt to clean up their mess. Well, then yes I do believe the stuff will be mine soon.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.10.22 16:09:00 - [42] Prism X just spoke of choosing between 2 stupid options when responding to another thing which is off topic... Letting salvager do their job while leaving the mission runner get a chance at their wreck is clearly the best solution. Salvaging isn't profitable, but it's not due to the mission runners, it's due to the stupid life expectancy of wrecks, and the fact that they cannot be probed. Let salvage last 12 hours. Give ownership to the mission runner (or whoever blew up the thing) for one hour. Create a wreck prober for dedicated salvagers. This way, everyone gets what he wants... -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Dubious Drewski	Posted - 2007.10.22 16:15:00 - [43] This isn't as much of a problem for me, now that I've discovered the deterring act of shooting the wrecks thieves go after. I will gladly shoot a whole bunch valuable BS wrecks to bits if it means I get to keep even a few after the thief has warped away in annoyance. Though I don't mind at all if someone salvages my missions with my permission, and maybe a small sum paid. Originally by: Slayton Ford a Drake is normally primaried last And that's why I love that homely boat!
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.10.22 16:35:00 - [44] /not posting in this thread Oh, snap. Anyway, here's my arguments: Linkage * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Snake Doctor Paradox v2.0	Posted - 2007.10.22 16:38:00 - [45] Originally by: Empire marketslave Originally by: Adonis 4174 If people whine hard enough they might make can flagging only apply to jetcans and not lootcans. which is my main point just like jet can flagging nos warp to zero WCS Nano ships super cap changes t2 prices need i go on?? and this is just the changes in the last 2 years from the forum army You forgot to mention the empire war nerf. Rifter Flight Manual!
Cornelius Murphy Seven. Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.10.22 16:56:00 - [46] I found that people "stealing" my salvage in my missions turned up in small ships, usually Buzzards. So, all I did was wait for the next spawn to arrive which from past experience had scramming frigs, and I warped out. I came back to see my salvage stealing friend in a pod. Oh how I laughed.... ------------------------------------------ Free BREE for all mod hacks!
Tral Kul	Posted - 2007.10.22 19:05:00 - [47] Originally by: Jonathan Calvert Not that this is real life, but look at it the same way. You cant shoot someone stealing from you without consequence either. The police are supposed to do that. So make it the same penalty. Someone salvages a wreck or takes your loot or ore in high sec, they get concorddoken. But combine this with a 30min timer, so if you dont choose to salvage, anyone can. So then why doesn't Concord involve itself in say ore stealing? Instead of getting flagged why doesn't Concord show up and just blast them to hell? Well for one CCP doesn't want that to happen and 2 Concord has too much to do to police every little 'crime'. I killed it, I took the risks for it; now tell me what risks are salvage stealers taking? I mean you can't kill them, if you warp in the middle of a wave of before one they will too, if you blow it up they're just leave and find another victim. There are supposed to be risks on both sides. That's why cans work the way they do, it's why you can even pirate in high sec; the risks for salvaging though are clearly imbalanced. The mission runners take all of the risk, the salavage stealers take none. That needs to be addressed.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.10.22 19:45:00 - [48] Originally by: Empire marketslave Alt metawhine Grow up griefer. -- Support fixing the EVE UI
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2007.10.22 20:48:00 - [49] I agree that you should get a blinky flag if you're salvaging somebody else's wreck. This has to be one of the only things in the game that lets you take something from another player under the full protection of hisec rules. But, unless something changes... Originally by: Rilder If someone steals your wrecks just blow the wrecks up, if a 'Salvage theif' knows that he isn't gonna get any salvage then he'll probably leave, And don't go all "BUT ITS SALVAGE WHY WASTE IT" If your not salvaging it then your not getting it so mise well deprive anyone else from getting it also. This works. Stop shooting rats and start sending cruise missiles after the wrecks. Since they DO belong to you, that's something you CAN shoot without Concord getting in the way. Anyone there just to steal salvage will get the message very quickly. -- This Space For Rent
jaybo34 Caldari PVP SCHOOL	Posted - 2008.01.12 13:45:00 - [50] all i know is if im spending my valuble time running missions [and lets face it they arnt that easy anymore] why the hell cant i keep my salvage for my self. why should it belong to whoever has a probe and a frigate or cruiser. fix it ccp im sick of the **** in this game.
Adonis 4174	Posted - 2008.01.12 14:09:00 - [51] Can people who leave unsalvaged wrecks in space get fined by CONCORD for littering next? ---- Anything less is wasted effort
Roz Blackhand	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:06:00 - [52] To those comparing salvage stealing to ore stealing: Your analogy is flawed. Does mining require that you deposit your ore in a can? No. So it's a choice to leave your mined ore vulnerable to stealing. Furthermore, wrecks are not equal to ore bearing asteroids. The miner didn't spend 1-4 hours at considerable risk creating those asteroids. To those that would justify salvage stealing based on technical (performance) reasons: If CCP has technical issues with having large numbers of wrecks lying around, it's exactly that.. a TECHNICAL issue. Making adjustments that affect gameplay to resolve a deficiency in the performance of the environment is at best a "poor man's" resolution and just plain lazy. At worst it has a negative impact on a significant number of customers and customer satisfaction. To those that would justify salvage stealing based on economy: What is accomplished for the economy by allowing someone to steal salvage from a mission runner that is already planning to salvage it? The complaints are coming from mission runners who DO salvage, so abandoned wrecks aren't the issue and there's no economic benefit (except the wallet of those that steal). If the problem is economic, the solution is simple... increase the drop rate. If you want "professional salvagers" to clean up the litter and contribute to the economy, find a way for them to do that without infringing on others. Food for thought: Does allowing what is oviously a detested activity (aside from those that enjoy griefing others) improve or enhance gameplay for mission runners? Are all professional salvagers also thieves and griefers? Looking at it from their perspective what is gained by making their profession detested? Why is it necessary to allow players who revel in "putting one over" on others to not only steal, but to be protected during the act? The only other ways to interpet CCP's decision to allow unauthorized salvaging is that for some reason they either want to discourage mission running, incite interpersonal conflict (since there is no in-game recourse), or pander to individuals who take pleasure in antaognizing other players. Suggestions for resolving this issue: 1) Give exclusive rights to the mission runner while the mission is active 2) Also provide an option for each mission to allow non-mission players to salvage at any time 3) Also provide a global option to allow non-mission players to salvage at any time 4) If there are economic needs for more salvage items in-game, increase the drop rate 5) If performance is being impacted by large numbers of abandoned wrecks, it's an infrastructure problem and needs to be addressed at that level. 6) Create beacons in abandoned mission areas that can be probed - OR add abandoned mission areas to the overview. Professional salvagers are hampered by the fact that currently they can only find a field of wrecks by probing for players.
Zartach Tzarszh	Posted - 2008.04.09 06:12:00 - [53] Originally by: Empire marketslave Eventually the Red Moon Rising Patch came and with it came Jet Can flagging, where if someone took our stuff you could shoot them. Miners rejoiced as they read the patch notes that they could finally do something about it. And ôThievesö cried out for reason. Well as soon as the Sever stabilized a new problem showed up. They take your ore you shoot them you come back in a t2 fitted BS and blow up their new shiney hulk and get your t2 strip miners and make more isk off of your loot than the ore they used to get in addition to any ore they might want to take. Or the other trick was to swap can so the people who didnÆt shoot back could no longer safely take their ore. Like it or not, but the "thieves" (nice people who empy trash bins) never cried out. From the very first time it was on test server C&P was laughing all over the place cause the silly bears had whined CCP into making thieving ore even more exiting. Same will happen if salvage flagging will ever get here, people will show up with a pvp fit salvage thing trying to make you open fire on them.
Varopriest	Posted - 2008.04.09 07:05:00 - [54] Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone is coming in and salvaging your wrecks before you complete your mission, what's to stop you from warping out and let the salvager deal with the NPC spawn. What's stopping you from leaving a single NPC alive until you salvage your wrecks. If the player (thief, your words not mine) is showing up in a frigate, good chance he's a goner if you leave the last rat alive and just warp out. Most mission runners are capable of tanking one of the mission rats long enough to complete salvage. Just a thought!
Roz Blackhand	Posted - 2008.04.09 18:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Varopriest Correct me if I'm wrong, but if someone is coming in and salvaging your wrecks before you complete your mission, what's to stop you from warping out and let the salvager deal with the NPC spawn. What's stopping you from leaving a single NPC alive until you salvage your wrecks. If the player (thief, your words not mine) is showing up in a frigate, good chance he's a goner if you leave the last rat alive and just warp out. Most mission runners are capable of tanking one of the mission rats long enough to complete salvage. Just a thought! Have you tried it? I have. The folks who infringe on mission runners do so in well equipped ships that can withstand even 3 or 4 rats, so they're undeterred by your solution. And what's to stop them from leaving and coming back? Probes are cheap compared to the bountiful buffet that CCP has set out for these dirtbags. And what are missions for in the first place? PvE content for players to experience and enjoy. Why bother with having missions at all if the intent is to put players head-to-head in all aspects of Eve? Why not just abolish missions alltogether and have everyone compete head-to-head for everything all the time? And if stealing the reward of a mission kill is OK, why not add in kill-stealing? Hey, the rat didn't belong to the mission runner, so what's the big deal? Besides, you're missing the point. There are only 2 possibilities: Either CCP intended salvage stealing as a result of the change to salvaging mechanics, or they didn't, in which case it's clearly an exploit. If it's intentional, then it's stealing and needs to be treated as such. If it's unintentional, rather than piling new fixes on top and compounding the problem, go back and re-address the original issue. Right now there is no risk and significant reward for unsavory characters to slip in and get free money without sharing in the effort. It's an inrresistable pirate magnet. Adding aggression flagging would only make it more attractive and be an open invitation to the scum that take great pleasure in baiting other players, thereby adding salt to the wound and actually making things worse. Unfortunately, if CCP actually condones salvage stealing, then aggression flagging is the most likely method to address the current imbalance of risk vs reward. Keep in mind that no mission runner is likely to be offended by someone salvaging wrecks that the runner has abandoned or doesn't want. So there ARE situations where salvaging someone else's wrecks is NOT offensive. If this kind of activity is desirable by CCP, then there are plenty of ways to allow it without allowing pirates and thieves to exploit it.
Tchell Dahhn Amarr Deny Reality	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:14:00 - [56] Originally by: Leemon Salvaging is my bread and butter. If some one comes along and starts to salvage my wrecks while I am still fighting off a mission I want to be able to blow him/her up without concord coming down on me. ...and... Originally by: Tral Kul You know this isn't a nerf, all people want is the chance to fight back fairly as it stands right now you can't shot someone who is effectively stealing from you. CCP has stated that wrecks belong to the NPC/PC of which the ship belongs, and they are not your wrecks just because you shot them. You do have the right to anything inside the cans, of course, and that is why there are some items which are destroyed, and some which are not. It's called 'balance'. Originally by: Dubious Drewski I will gladly shoot a whole bunch valuable BS wrecks to bits if it means I get to keep even a few after the thief has warped away in annoyance. Though I don't mind at all if someone salvages my missions with my permission, and maybe a small sum paid. This is a fantastic tactic, and as a Ninja Salvager myself, I applaud you for it. You have figured out that you could either ruin it for the Ninja Salvager by destroying the wrecks they mostly want, or get them to pay you for the privilege. Thumbs up! Originally by: Cornelius Murphy I found that people "stealing" my salvage in my missions turned up in small ships, usually Buzzards. So, all I did was wait for the next spawn to arrive which from past experience had scramming frigs, and I warped out. I came back to see my salvage stealing friend in a pod. Oh how I laughed.... This is possibly the BEST tactic I've seen yet. I have had this happen to me (minus the podding) on numerous occasions, and I ALWAYS have to warp out and hope that the Mission Runners come back to the belt to complete the mission. More often then not, however, they return with a buddy or an alt who is already salvaging the wrecks, thus, limiting the number that I, myself, can attain. Here are two things that you should be doing, as well, if you're interested in ruining the Ninja Salvager's day. One: Salvage as you go. Yes, if you unfit one of those huge guns, it will be more difficult to complete your mission. It will take longer. However, if you're doing it as you go, there's less of a chance a Ninja Salvager can get anything from you. (Hint - it takes me about 10-20 minutes to 'clean up' after a mission. If there's little left, it's not worth my while. I'll go scan somewhere else.) Two: Have a buddy/alt salvaging for you. Make sure he's running a fast ship, and don't stick with the 'tanking ship/tractor beam' setup - it doesn't work. I salvage more out of your tractor beams than you do. I know I'm giving away precious secrets to defend against my profession, but I'm happy to help. After all, if I had to go up against stupid people all the time, I would probably quit EvE. (And no, you cannot have my stuff.) Now offering Scanning Services for that 'hard to find' Mission Runner! Convo in-game for details!
Lord Rue Gallente GenX Societies Inc. Rejuvenate	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:17:00 - [57] Ghod so much WHINING!!! I run missions, and I salvage as I go. End of story. Clean up after yourself, and anyone who does probe you down will find nothing to eat where you are. Also, have any of you who have been run down tried a polite 'hi, i'll be salvaging my wrecks, please leave them alone'? 75% of salvagers are NOT dinks and will warp away. The other 25% of nasty ninjas who don't listen, shoot the wrecks and deny them food. Use the mechanics already in place instead of calling for more NERFS!! Devil bunnies! I snort the nose! Lucifer! Banana!
Rhaegor Stormborn	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:19:00 - [58] It sucks that CCP can't figure out how to solve problems without breaking the game.
Tchell Dahhn Amarr Deny Reality	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:21:00 - [59] Originally by: Lord Rue I run missions, and I salvage as I go. End of story. Clean up after yourself, and anyone who does probe you down will find nothing to eat where you are. ...snip... 75% of salvagers are NOT dinks and will warp away. The other 25% of nasty ninjas who don't listen, shoot the wrecks and deny them food. I love you Lord Rue. Can I bear your children? p.s. This guy has answers. Now offering Scanning Services for that 'hard to find' Mission Runner! Convo in-game for details!
Saori Rei Gallente Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2008.04.09 19:24:00 - [60] Edited by: Saori Rei on 09/04/2008 19:25:15 How about something as simple as salvaging wrecks flags a salvager(not the mission runner) ONLY if the mission they are in is active? I would pressume that someone who salvages their own missions will not turn in a mission until the salvaging is done?

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