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Zealot's 5th Gun??

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Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 05:47:00 - [1] Maybe I missed a thread or two, but what happend to Zealot's 5th gun?? Every other race gets 5 guns (or missles if caldary) in the HAC ship class.. ------------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Ararius EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.17 05:52:00 - [2] I dont think the Eagle has more then 4 Turrets also.... Im ugly, just look at my face!
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 05:55:00 - [3] Originally by: Ararius I dont think the Eagle has more then 4 Turrets also.... Difference being that the Zealot could use one.
xHalcyonx Amarr Lucian Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 05:59:00 - [4] Edited by: xHalcyonx on 17/09/2007 06:03:25 Ishtar: 3 guns, 5 Heavy drones Deimos: 5 guns, 5 Medium drones Cerberus: 5 missiles Eagle: 4 guns Zealot: 4 guns Sacrilege: 5 missiles, 3 Light drones Vaga: 5 guns, 1 missile, 5 Light drones Muninn: 5 guns, 2 missile, 5 Light drones Zealot and Eagle need a 5th gunslot (and a small dronebay, perhaps 15m3) to be balanced. Problem Solved. ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:07:00 - [5] Originally by: xHalcyonx Zealot and Eagle need a 5th gunslot (and a small dronebay, perhaps 15m3) to be balanced. Problem Solved. Eagle is overpowered in the long range with a 5th gun slot. It needs drones insstead, and/or if it gets a 5th gun slot needs to lose its damage bonus in favor of a different one.
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:08:00 - [6] Originally by: xHalcyonx Zealot and Eagle need a 5th gunslot (and a small dronebay, perhaps 15m3) to be balanced. Problem Solved. Strangly, the T1 versions have 15m3 drone bays.. ------------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:12:00 - [7] Not having drones would be fine if it was a proper gunboat - but - its not really a proper guboat, it needs a 5th turret slot and the appropriate PG/CPU boost to fit a 5th HPLII.
xHalcyonx Amarr Lucian Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:13:00 - [8] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: xHalcyonx Zealot and Eagle need a 5th gunslot (and a small dronebay, perhaps 15m3) to be balanced. Problem Solved. Eagle is overpowered in the long range with a 5th gun slot. It needs drones insstead, and/or if it gets a 5th gun slot needs to lose its damage bonus in favor of a different one. Going from 155 dps to 195 dps with Spike M is hardly overpowering. (Max Skills) ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:15:00 - [9] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: xHalcyonx Zealot and Eagle need a 5th gunslot (and a small dronebay, perhaps 15m3) to be balanced. Problem Solved. Eagle is overpowered in the long range with a 5th gun slot. It needs drones insstead, and/or if it gets a 5th gun slot needs to lose its damage bonus in favor of a different one. Could you give the summary of the logic of this? Are we assuming a full sniper setup on both and the spike/CN thorium outdamages a beam zealot with aurora? ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
R1pp3r Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:17:00 - [10] Adding a 5th slot to the Zealot would be perfect... if you want to see everyone flying around in one. kii
Scav Silver Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:33:00 - [11] Originally by: R1pp3r Adding a 5th slot to the Zealot would be perfect... if you want to see everyone flying around in one. kii Well, what's the current ratio of cerby vs deimos vs vaga vs zealot?? It would be a nice change.. ------------------------------------------------------------- "Scav est procul Porta!!" -=Pimary=- "Tonight you dine in....BKG?" -=Ashemi Darkhold=-
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:53:00 - [12] Edited by: Goumindong on 17/09/2007 06:53:43 Originally by: Erotic Irony Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: xHalcyonx Zealot and Eagle need a 5th gunslot (and a small dronebay, perhaps 15m3) to be balanced. Problem Solved. Eagle is overpowered in the long range with a 5th gun slot. It needs drones insstead, and/or if it gets a 5th gun slot needs to lose its damage bonus in favor of a different one. Could you give the summary of the logic of this? Are we assuming a full sniper setup on both and the spike/CN thorium outdamages a beam zealot with aurora? The double range bonus combined with readily available faction ammo, with the similar issue of their prefered targets being frigates in the situations where long range weapons are used means that the Eagle outdamages the Muninn and Zealot at all sniping ranges. With 5 turrets it would do 242 DPS at 100km with CN thorium, a 5 turret Zealot would do 290 dps with Aurora, but 208 with Radio[Muninn would do 192 with CN Carb Lead]. This would mean that the Eagle would be doing nearly 20% more DPS with the same tracking, or only slightly less DPS with 4 times the tracking The CN Thorium Eagle would just obsolete the Zealot[you shouldnt be loading tech 2 ammo into these anyway, if you want to shoot at cruisers, BCs/BSs are better options] and the Muninn. Even if they all had 5 turrets. Such to balance the eagle, you need to make it effective without increasing its DPS in the long range. E.G. lets say we took the current eagle, removed its damage bonus and added a shield hit point bonus. Then we gave it another turret, and CPU/PG to fit that. Then we add 25 cubes of drone bay. In the long range it is unchanged, but in the short range it could fit something like this: Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II 10MN MicroWarpdrive II Warp Disruptor II Stasis Webifier II Large Shield Extender II Large Shield Extender II Heavy Ion Blaster II Heavy Ion Blaster II Heavy Ion Blaster II Heavy Ion Blaster II Heavy Ion Blaster II Heavy Assault Missile Launcher II Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I 5x Hobgoblin II 13788 shields, tanks average of 150 dps passivly, does 511 dps. resists of 65.8/73.6/80.2/86.8 on the shields. Which frankly gives it a good role in the short range without overpowering it in the long range.
ReePeR McAllem The Carebear Stare	Posted - 2007.09.17 06:55:00 - [13] Would be nice to fly the Zealot again. 5th Turret please...
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.09.17 07:41:00 - [14] no to the zealot and eagle getting 5th turrets. plenty of people fly these ships so they musnt be so bad. enough of these threads already, people think if they whine enough they will get it changed. STOP WHINING !!
Augeas	Posted - 2007.09.17 07:56:00 - [15] It's bizarre to see that Guomindong's answer to the feeble DPS of the sniper HAC is to give it a drone bay.
hylleX Rehab.	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:07:00 - [16] Originally by: slothe plenty of people fly these ships so they musnt be so bad. nice argument! ... not This is a valid request, atm the sacriledge outdamages and outtanks the zealot, kind of silly. The zealots damage is not inline with its heritage, it SHOULD do more considering it has 0% flexibility and being a "mini-geddon". What incentive is there to fly a zealot over a sac today if having skills to use both properly? The eagle (which i havet flown) is also i need of another turret, the damage may have been decent before the hp-buff when sniping intys and what not, but today its just plain bad. Im pretty sure this 5th turret is coming for both of these ships. hopefully sooner rather than later
Serj Darek Minmatar Mentally Unstable Enterprises	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:09:00 - [17] Originally by: Augeas It's bizarre to see that Guomindong's answer to the feeble DPS of the sniper HAC is to give it a drone bay. Or maybe his changes keeps it's current role and adds a new dimension to it for close range? I don't see you providing any counter arguments or ideas. First!
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.17 08:11:00 - [18] Originally by: Guomindong words I see what you're describing now, its more complicated than I thought. It's as much about the quality of faction ammo relative to t2 as it is about the disparity between the range ammo damage types available to hybrids vs lasers. Originally by: slothe no to the zealot and eagle getting 5th turrets. plenty of people fly these ships so they musnt be so bad. enough of these threads already, people think if they whine enough they will get it changed. STOP WHINING !! Whiny posts like this only lend more credibility to what Guo is saying, stop posting. I wish you luck in discriminating between whines and lucid evaluation. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
mama guru Gallente Corp 1 Allstars Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.17 09:58:00 - [19] Originally by: slothe no to the zealot and eagle getting 5th turrets. plenty of people fly these ships so they musnt be so bad. enough of these threads already, people think if they whine enough they will get it changed. STOP WHINING !! STOP POSTING !! The zealot is the worst gankship in the game(in terms of preformance vs price). It does 465 dps with max skills and 3x Heatsink II's, no dronebay, no room for cap boosters. IT STINKS! End of story, the only thing positive about it atm is that its pretty cheap compared to the rest. -YOU ARE NOW READING MY SIGNATURE- EVE is like the "Fisherman's Friend" of MMOs. If it's too hard, you are too weak.
Augeas	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:47:00 - [20] Quote: Or maybe his changes keeps it's current role and adds a new dimension to it for close range? I don't see you providing any counter arguments or ideas. There's a 40 page thread on a fifth turret for the Eagle. It mostly consists of Guomindong trying to turn it into a subpar Deimos, and showing pretty DPS graphs that don't relate to ingame realities. The point is that the Eagle is a pure sniper - its high mass, low speed and tackle/shield tank conflict precludes any sensible close range fit - in a galaxy where the Deimos exists at least. Inflexible, focussed ships are a classic Caldari trait and the Eagle epitomises that. But as a sniper, it's outclassed by Zealot and Muninn in terms of DPS, alpha and versatility. The only advantage it has is range - which isn't that useful when your target is MWDing into your face. And the Eagle has to have the right ammo loaded to utilise that on-paper range advantage - and since you can't really reload whilst your target is MWDing towards you, that only serves to gimp its DPS even further, as its largely restricted to low-DPS ammo.
Rafus Life Extermination	Posted - 2007.09.17 10:54:00 - [21] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ararius I dont think the Eagle has more then 4 Turrets also.... Difference being that the Zealot could use one. It does enough damage as it is. The ealge on the other hand...
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:11:00 - [22] Originally by: Augeas Quote: Or maybe his changes keeps it's current role and adds a new dimension to it for close range? I don't see you providing any counter arguments or ideas. There's a 40 page thread on a fifth turret for the Eagle. It mostly consists of Guomindong trying to turn it into a subpar Deimos, and showing pretty DPS graphs that don't relate to ingame realities. The point is that the Eagle is a pure sniper - its high mass, low speed and tackle/shield tank conflict precludes any sensible close range fit - in a galaxy where the Deimos exists at least. Inflexible, focussed ships are a classic Caldari trait and the Eagle epitomises that. But as a sniper, it's outclassed by Zealot and Muninn in terms of DPS, alpha and versatility. The only advantage it has is range - which isn't that useful when your target is MWDing into your face. And the Eagle has to have the right ammo loaded to utilise that on-paper range advantage - and since you can't really reload whilst your target is MWDing towards you, that only serves to gimp its DPS even further, as its largely restricted to low-DPS ammo. stopped reading at "subpar deimos" as you certainly didn't read the 5th turret, absolutely don't understand Guo's project, and you certainly don't pvp at all. ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Ziena Amani	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:38:00 - [23] Edited by: Ziena Amani on 17/09/2007 11:39:34 Originally by: Rafus Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ararius I dont think the Eagle has more then 4 Turrets also.... Difference being that the Zealot could use one. It does enough damage as it is. The ealge on the other hand... Yeah, totally enough damage.. to be outdamaged by prophecy PS. That's not a joke actually, a HP setup prophecy(yeah, already funny) does around the same(1 heatsink on proph vs 2 on zealot) or slightly more(2 on proph vs 3 on zealot) damage than this "heavy assault" ship
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 11:38:00 - [24] Originally by: Rafus Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ararius I dont think the Eagle has more then 4 Turrets also.... Difference being that the Zealot could use one. It does enough damage as it is. The ealge on the other hand... does as much or more dps than the Zealot... In such a build it has a lot smaller tank, but hey. We are just looking at DPS here.
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.17 15:36:00 - [25] Zealot's dps is pretty weak compared to other HACs, especially if you take into account it's complete lack of EW.
Terianna Eri Amarr STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.17 15:49:00 - [26] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 17/09/2007 15:53:52 mostly I think it's that the new sacrilege outtanks and outganks the zealot, gains a drone bay from the maller while the zealot loses one from the omen, and pretty much obsoletes the zealot in every way. Not that I'm complaining about the sacriledge of course; it's friggin awesome. It's that the new sacriledge just shows us how badly the zealot is lacking in comparison. Behold, the Omen deals 426 dps with max skills, heavy pulse laser IIs, amarr navy Multifrequency, 3x HS II, and hobgoblin IIs. (no relevant implants) The Zealot, with the same fitting (no hobgoblins ofc), deals 458. It hardly even outdamages its t1 counterpart, which is already one of the more worthless cruisers ingame. Please CCP, the zealot is supposed to be laser platform of death-spewing at the expense of the ability to do anything else. At the moment, it can't even do that well. The range bonus is nice, as a bonus, but doesn't really make up for its crippling lack of damage. __________________________________
Julio Torres Chosen Path FATAL Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.17 15:50:00 - [27] Zealot is in desperate need of a 5th turret w/CPU&PG increase to fit it.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 16:42:00 - [28] Originally by: Julio Torres Zealot is in desperate need of a 5th turret w/CPU&PG increase to fit it. CPU maybe, but the ship is swimming in powergrid.
KD.Fluffy The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:35:00 - [29] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ararius I dont think the Eagle has more then 4 Turrets also.... Difference being that the Zealot could use one. lmao. Goumin doesnt want balance... he wants the ships he flies to be uber. Zealots dps is fine... it dominates the mid range field with pulse or beam lasers.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.17 17:44:00 - [30] Originally by: KD.Fluffy Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Ararius I dont think the Eagle has more then 4 Turrets also.... Difference being that the Zealot could use one. lmao. Goumin doesnt want balance... he wants the ships he flies to be uber. Zealots dps is fine... it dominates the mid range field with pulse or beam lasers. Cerberus DPS @ 40km, 495 Zealot DPS @ 35km, 365. Cerberus DPS @ 10km, 495 Zealot DPS @ 10km, 454 What was that you were saying about being the king of mid range dps now?

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