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DrDooma
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Posted - 2007.10.02 08:48:00 -
[181]
Edited by: DrDooma on 02/10/2007 08:54:28 Edited by: DrDooma on 02/10/2007 08:51:49 Edited by: DrDooma on 02/10/2007 08:51:06 I think this discussion is turning away from the original issue of:
+The maximum speed of ships is not balanced when dealing with ships fitting multiple stacking speed bonuses (paraphrased)æBrokenÆ
It has now become ôwhat type of webs should we add to the gameö
You have suggested using æsignature radiusÆ to determine the effectiveness of new webs which is similar to the way missiles work. This will in effect make shield tanking ships be more prone to web then their Armour counterparts. This is because shield modules increase signature radius. Also why should target painters have any effect on how easy it is to web a ship?
Another problem with even 20km web is that you can warp- scrap- depen with a single ship. To do the same thing now you need at least 2 ships.
For previous post on page 6.
ôYou can do this by giving each ship web value of 1 and each module that is used in conjunction with lets say WMD + NanoPart-A that increases range of targeting webber by 25% and ships speed by 15% ô
Originally by: Goumindong
1. That is a lot harder to do than adding webs using a modified version of an existing game mechanic
2. How in the world is my new mechanic going to add lag?
1 .Why is this harder? We already have signature attribute on every ship. All you doing is adding Web attribute (signature).
2. Webbing will use more math to calculate then missiles. Much more as you need to consider 100 to 200 ship engagements not just small skirmishes. At 40KM single ship can be scrammed and target painted by 20+ ppl. I donÆt know if it realy makes any difference but if it doesà.
As a side note: if you do agree that that the ships and modules are balance as they are then if you look at the missile damage link that you have provided you will see how much more difference even 10 to 20% speed reduction makes in damage to a ship. Hence all ships and a lot of modules will have to be adjusted.
sorry for multiple updates
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 10:24:00 -
[182]
Originally by: DrDooma
1 .Why is this harder? We already have signature attribute on every ship. All you doing is adding Web attribute (signature).
2. Webbing will use more math to calculate then missiles. Much more as you need to consider 100 to 200 ship engagements not just small skirmishes. At 40KM single ship can be scrammed and target painted by 20+ ppl. I donÆt know if it realy makes any difference but if it doesà.
Ill get to the rest later.
1. Because there is no mechanic to produce bonuses in that manner, even if its possible and not exploitable.
2. Because you cant be targted and launched on by 120 seperate launchers impacting every 10 seconds?
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Chief Judge
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Posted - 2007.10.02 11:51:00 -
[183]
G. i have rethinked my suggestion when u suggested your type of modulation..
AND solution was suggesting was giving too much advantage to BSs.. now i can see that.. did some math after that... And i can admit when i am wrong, in this scenario that wouldnt be soo good unless some serius advantage was given to short range web too..
To KABEN..
On this char i use mostly lazors and missiles.. that is true.. But i had my fair share of autocannons and hybrid on my other char..
U neglected one thing i wrote.. most combat is and will revolved around the gates and bubbles.. and that is 10-20km range.. and most of the combat is still going to be pulled there.. sooo close range ship wont suffer as much.. AND SPEED AND WEB IS FIXED..
BTW.. Suppose 1vs1 happens,there are rare instances u will be charging against a 40km geddon.. even now,with short web and full mwd,all that,it is suicidal.. yes it will beharder with web changes but still u are going to warp off if u dont have a victim nearby ,like before the web changes.. closing in a 40km geddon is as dumb as charging up to a sniper, u are going to die in both occasions..
What you are going to prolly do,before and after web change, is warp off and try to land ship on top off the geddon/sniper. You cannot have all. And yes geddon fires lots of DPS but u can get under its guns where does no DPS
Boy o boy am i ****** when i jump in my geddon and u are w8ting 15km off me sorrounded in a bubble and u have that nice new medium webber to keep me in place. When u get to 3-4km i do squat to you,even with conflags.
Amarr are flawed too,everyone is,right now all we see mostly is a close range setups and combat,and i am sick of those.
Se there is only one of examples on how webbers are going to help short ranged ships too.
I am sick and tired off ppl gong aproach,mwd,web,turn off mwd,fire all guns,rinse,repeat. With no disrespect, ppl are lazy and dont think at all. With little thinking about positioning themselves they can make their life lots easier.
onto the next thing: If i dont see close range ships we see snipers. (and i hate them to the bone,but realize they are needed if u want to do anything in 0.0, fleet with more/better snipers wins) Id really like to see a bit more medium range combat as well.
As of now.. Tactics is: MWD.. web it.. and kill it.. with all of the ships.. i want to see more medium range combat and these webifiers are going to enable that.. aaand fix ABs.. and speed.. aaand my financial situation,aaand my liver condition,aaand my GF is going to be satisfied better..
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Chief Judge
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Posted - 2007.10.02 12:04:00 -
[184]
Erm forgot one thing.. about positioning.. yes we require less.. but we dont have a truly short rnged ship.. you get under our guns and we are screwed.. so every race has its advantages and disadvantages..
Gallente have lower cap usage.. have generally more drones.. Greater speed.. and what was that about not having a decent med range ship.. just convert that megathron to a caldari navy antimatter railguns with 1 tracking comp and a few mag.field stabs with inherited mega tracking bonus, you can almost reach,(or even top,when u add one more tracking enhancer and light-stacking tracking rig),the tracking of geddon with tracking-penalized schorch L..
What am i saying,webs would help all races the same.. and would fix speed, current webs,tactics..
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 13:19:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 02/10/2007 08:40:30 Those Hyperions do not fit. That geddon is probably the worst geddon fit i have ever layed eyes on.
Lets look at what a Geddon might look like after the changes[or hell, before the changes, though propulsionless is more likly]
Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Heat Sink II Damage Control II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
100MN Afterburner II F-90 Positional Sensor Subroutines Sensor Booster II
Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II Mega Pulse Laser II [empty high slot]
Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
998 dps @ 45km, 28594 armor, 118,600 effective hit points, .03165 tracking
With your proposed hyperion
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Damage Control II 1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I Reactor Control Unit II
Tracking Computer II Tracking Computer II Stasis Webifier II 100MN Afterburner II Sensor Booster II
425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II 425mm Railgun II
Algid Hybrid Administrations Unit I Trimark Armor Pump I Trimark Armor Pump I
945 dps@ 47km, 20,000 armor, 78,200 effective hit points, .01971 tracking
The Hyperion do ft I also double checked it in EFT and quickfit perhapse yyou should try it yourself. also the geddon I set up was a acctive tank but I was strictly focusing on the the dps using mega's but hey if you want a decent tank why dont we pt dual haveis on it. That would casue it to lose about 9-10km im optimal. with a dual heavy geddon I can roughly get about 13k of hitpoints but I would be damned if I am going to put 3 rigs on a ship thats worth 60mil. Also the original geddon I provided was a roughset up that i didnt fine tune my point in posting it is to show DPS difference and range of the hyperions and the geddon under the conditions set. either way you see it the geddon is going down fast and the mega will be next with your nutty idea about webbs. Just face it that this isnt goign to fix your "Speed Dillema" its going to just P/O more players then necessary.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 13:32:00 -
[186]
neither will go down, they will burn back to the gate and jump. The taranis and dictor will do the same or will avoid the lacheis while killing the enemy dictor.
Once the enemy dictor is down, the Geddon and Mega can get back on the gate and remote rep each other[drones perfered for the Geddon, though it does lower dps]. The taranis and dictor then team up on the lachesis and start killing drones while keeping transversal up. They warp out if the lachs missiles are able to threaten them.
But you have to remember that in that engagement the hyps would win right now with current game mechanics.
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 13:38:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 13:44:55
so the hyperions would intheory win the fight by making the roaming gang retreat. now lets try something else swap the hyperions with abboddons with 8 tachs each usign what every type of of amarr navy crystal that would fit the range of the webs. It will still look grim for that roaming gang. THats why im saying its overpowered casue there litterly is no balance. You are giving a complete advantage to the med long range set ups that the close range set ups cannot compinsate for.
A. they can't get into range before they pop B. you will see that more of the med/ long range set ups that we tend to see in fleet being use here. C. Amarr and Caldari will be the best at this new web idea. (torp/cruise missles- beams)
now my idea for speed deamons would be to add a inertia penelty on overdrivers a little. thus making the vaga pilot fit a inertia stab to compinsate or the gimp. ie. increase the inertia mod of the ship by 15% each time they add an overdriver. this in turn would cause the vaga to slow down even more when orbiting since its cant turn as fast going those rediculus speeds. when it coems to a deimos all the deimos likes to do is MWD right to target and ram them then establish a tight orbit. then turn off the MWD to conserve cap for repping.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 16:45:00 -
[188]
I have already shown why that is not the case.
3 afterburning rail thoraxes jump in with a dictor, they bubble the battleships primary the lachesis and outransverse the battelship guns. Lach dies or warps, thoraxes target drones, then kill the battleships.
You are looking at a scenario right now where a few things are happening. The first is that with the current balance in an extended fight[i.e. no one warps/jumps] the longer ranged ships would win. The second is that with the current balance if the gate campers had to move they would be at a serious disadvantage. The third is that the changes introduce weakness to these longer ranged ships against smaller ships. And weakness for battleships against smaller ships.
All in all you are looking at one heavily slanted situation without considering new weaknesses, a situation so slanted the short range ships wouldnt win now[Lach damps the megathron then the dictor webs him while the lach and dictor kill the taranis and dictor, battleships drone the dictor/taranis, and primary the Geddon. The Geddon is the only one that can fire, but is doing all EM and eventually falls before one of the hyps does. Then they just kill the thron.] And then you take this heavily skewed situation and use it to paint the proposed change as overpowered. When the change opens new weaknesses to different types of ships fitted in different ways than would be the case today.
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 17:41:00 -
[189]
you are forgetting how long range and tracking work. if a ship is aproaching you at ur opt range then your guns do not have to track that much. thus almost a hit everytime. also you just showed me that all ships that use blaster currently Quote: WILL
have to change up for rails thus doing less damage and not fitting what the DEV's intended these ships to do in the first place while they where designing them. Please note that the games name is EVE ONLINE not CALDARI ONLINE. since these will be the least likely to be affected by you "idea". I will admit I have read some of your idea's in the past and liked them but I am sorry I cannot agree with you n this one. it is going to make the hole game shift to long range and defeat the purpose of in close in your face kinda warfare
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 18:37:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Develon Hitaki Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 18:16:04 you are forgetting how long range and tracking work. if a ship is aproaching you at ur opt range then your guns do not have to track that much. thus almost a hit everytime. also you just showed me that all ships that use blaster currently WILL have to change up for rails thus doing less damage and not fitting what the DEV's intended these ships to do in the first place while they where designing them. Please note that the games name is EVE ONLINE not CALDARI ONLINE. since these will be the least likely to be affected by you "idea". I will admit I have read some of your idea's in the past and liked them but I am sorry I cannot agree with you n this one. it is going to make the hole game shift to long range and defeat the purpose of in close in your face kinda warfare
A thorax has a signature radius of 140m. It moves at 500m/s after the two 40km webs. Maintaining a transversal of 400m/s will produce a radial velocity of 300m/s. A rail hyperion will do less than 10% of its DPS against these ships under 45km and do 0 dps under 30km.
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 18:46:00 -
[191]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 18:49:29
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Develon Hitaki Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 18:16:04 you are forgetting how long range and tracking work. if a ship is aproaching you at ur opt range then your guns do not have to track that much. thus almost a hit everytime. also you just showed me that all ships that use blaster currently WILL have to change up for rails thus doing less damage and not fitting what the DEV's intended these ships to do in the first place while they where designing them. Please note that the games name is EVE ONLINE not CALDARI ONLINE. since these will be the least likely to be affected by you "idea". I will admit I have read some of your idea's in the past and liked them but I am sorry I cannot agree with you n this one. it is going to make the hole game shift to long range and defeat the purpose of in close in your face kinda warfare
A thorax has a signature radius of 140m. It moves at 500m/s after the two 40km webs. Maintaining a transversal of 400m/s will produce a radial velocity of 300m/s. A rail hyperion will do less than 10% of its DPS against these ships under 45km and do 0 dps under 30km.
but average thorax pilot would approach there target and then orbit. 2 hyperions with drones will have no trouble hitting him when he is starting up and aproach them. also the drones will finish him off in little to no time
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 18:52:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
but average thorax pilot would approach there target and then orbit. 2 hyperions with drones will have no trouble hitting him when he is starting up and aproach them. also the drones will finish him off in little to no time
The average thorax pilot will get transversal up since he knows after the new implementation that he wont be webbed and killed. During that time, they target and kill drones.
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 18:54:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 18:55:21 but a rail fitted thorax is going to suffer from tracking drones so he wold also have a hard time hitting them unless he used his drones against them but then again I dont think hes going to have the time to do that. also note if this gets implemented
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Kaben
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Posted - 2007.10.02 18:57:00 -
[194]
Originally by: Chief Judge Erm forgot one thing.. about positioning.. yes we require less.. but we dont have a truly short rnged ship.. you get under our guns and we are screwed.. so every race has its advantages and disadvantages..
Gallente have lower cap usage.. have generally more drones.. Greater speed.. and what was that about not having a decent med range ship.. just convert that megathron to a caldari navy antimatter railguns with 1 tracking comp and a few mag.field stabs with inherited mega tracking bonus, you can almost reach,(or even top,when u add one more tracking enhancer and light-stacking tracking rig),the tracking of geddon with tracking-penalized schorch L..
What am i saying,webs would help all races the same.. and would fix speed, current webs,tactics..
I'll start with your previous post and work my way to the one I'm quoting.
Just because the only combat you have seen is gate camping does not mean that is the most used. Have you ever heard of roaming gangs? Bubblecamps are mainly used to protect borderlines of alliance space. I personally have only took part in one bubble camp, one only. Why? I do not like it, for the most part it means whoever is camping the gate generally wins, I like competition. You say more action at bubbles, I say not, usually bubblecamps get lots of shuttles, noob frigs, industrials and the occasional cruiser-bs sized vessel, whereas roaming gangs usually always have action with cruisers-bs class vessels.
40km distance isn't that much space to traverse accross, unless you are speaking of pure gank no tank, but a properly fitted ship being half tank half gank this isn't a problem. Or if you prefer my mega doesn't deal 1k dps, maybe 500dps (t2 fitted) with a nice tank, not supertank but nice.
Nice to see you are smart enough to have a scout in the group to send back the info that "said" gate is camped before juming your ships through the gate. Seriously this is your fault, not your ships fault, not the other persons fault, USE scouts in cov ops heck even a shuttle.
Yes all ships are flawed, thank you for reposting what I said.
Thats how those ships work, just like amarr ships hit f1-f8 turn on ab to gain a little speed, I could say I'm sick of that, but thats how the work.
You will see med ranged sniper fits, and see almost no gank ships due to everything would be about web opponent and alpha him before he can do anything.
new tactics with these webs, "primary is pluh" everyone alpha strikes pluh, pluh dies before he can do anything. "Yeah, this sounds like fun, not." Some people enjoy this type of warfare, others don't (Like me, I like a fight). These new webs give one hell of an advantage to fleet (or mid ranged fitted fleet ships) to be utilized in gank combat.
Finally at the current quote.
Thank you for resaying what you already said that I already said before.
Wonderful, gallente have only slightly less cap use then amarr, but guess what, this is the kicker. They use more cap when looking at the bigger picture. You say no. I say yes and I'll give an example of what I mean. Just about "every" gallente ship has to fit a mwd. So now gallente being the second highest cap user in the game has roughly about 40% less cap then amarr in total with about the same recharge. So gallente ARE the highest cap user because they have crap for cap to play with, but this is all good and I can deal with it.
You say convert it with railguns, with the new changes yes that's what will happen, but currently when was the last time you say a rail fitted mega in ganks. I personally have "never" seen one.
No these new webs will allow fleet ships to be used primarly in gank squads rendering close range weapons obsolete, save for torps.
I don't want to see med ranged ships in gank squads, they have there purpose in fleets just as close range ships are mainly ganks.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:24:00 -
[195]
Quote:
You will see med ranged sniper fits, and see almost no gank ships due to everything would be about web opponent and alpha him before he can do anything.
I hope you realize that fleet ships are the most pure form of gank ship available, designed to put as much DPS down on target as fast as possible from any range.
Or that this form of combat is already very very strong.
Ill get the rest later.
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:31:00 -
[196]
but with this web idea thats whats going to happen. all blaster shis and autocannon ships will becaome almost inaffective.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:40:00 -
[197]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/10/2007 19:41:20
Originally by: Develon Hitaki but with this web idea thats whats going to happen. all blaster shis and autocannon ships will becaome almost inaffective.
No, because the webs are weak and because they dont web smaller ships as well. Because it creates new weaknesses that can be exploited.
Because combat can still occur under 40-20km. Because movement is still relativly easy in that area.
Because higher transversal at lower ranges means longer range ships are at a huge disadvantage once the ships do close.
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:44:00 -
[198]
you keep avoiding the big picture. ur talkin about a thorax going after a BS im talking about a BS going after a BS or a cruiser going ater a cruiser. you are nerfing to many ships and 2 diferent weapon platforms and gimping the damage on another.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:45:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Kaben
new tactics with these webs, "primary is pluh" everyone alpha strikes pluh, pluh dies before he can do anything. "Yeah, this sounds like fun, not." Some people enjoy this type of warfare, others don't (Like me, I like a fight). These new webs give one hell of an advantage to fleet (or mid ranged fitted fleet ships) to be utilized in gank combat.
That is exactly what happens now, a primary is called, a single web is applied to the target and the target is anhillated at range by as much DPS as the gang can muster
The changes makes the webs weaker, and doesnt change DPS at all.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:46:00 -
[200]
Edited by: Goumindong on 02/10/2007 19:48:19
Originally by: Develon Hitaki you keep avoiding the big picture. ur talkin about a thorax going after a BS im talking about a BS going after a BS or a cruiser going ater a cruiser. you are nerfing to many ships and 2 diferent weapon platforms and gimping the damage on another.
because ships need to have weaknesses to specific fits. You are talking about a situation where the long range ships are already heavily advantaged. Yea, if you jump into a long range gang with a smaller short range gang, expect to lose. Amasing that! And hey, as the gang size gets larger, so does the benefit of long range ships!
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:47:00 -
[201]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 19:50:55
Originally by: Goumindong
That is exactly what happens now, a primary is called, a single web is applied to the target and the target is anhillated at range by as much DPS as the gang can muster
The changes makes the webs weaker, and doesnt change DPS at all.
yes the dps will be weakend cause now the blaster or autocannon ships that you are having trouble with now will have to fit rails or arties thus lowering there dps to compinsate for the range drawback that your webs are causing.
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Goumindong
Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:49:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
Originally by: Goumindong
That is exactly what happens now, a primary is called, a single web is applied to the target and the target is anhillated at range by as much DPS as the gang can muster
The changes makes the webs weaker, and doesnt change DPS at all.
yes the dps will be weakend cause now the blaster or autocannon ships that you are having trouble with now will have to fit rails or arties thus lowering there dps.
No, they wont, because blasters and autocannons are good in the short range and decent in the med range[on battleships], and have advantages that the longer range ships do not!
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:52:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
Originally by: Goumindong
That is exactly what happens now, a primary is called, a single web is applied to the target and the target is anhillated at range by as much DPS as the gang can muster
The changes makes the webs weaker, and doesnt change DPS at all.
yes the dps will be weakend cause now the blaster or autocannon ships that you are having trouble with now will have to fit rails or arties thus lowering there dps.
No, they wont, because blasters and autocannons are good in the short range and decent in the med range[on battleships], and have advantages that the longer range ships do not!
how do they have an advantage if you web them before they can even get a good run on you?
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Sofring Eternus
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.02 19:58:00 -
[204]
What is the difference between the proposed changes and the current system of tacklers?
The tacklers will web for less, and the battleships will lose slots to fit the 40% webbers that are only effective against MWD'ing cruisers or larger.
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD interdictor = 80% webbed / 33% vs AB Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 83% effective against MWD interdictor = 50% webbed / 8% vs AB Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 25% effective against MWD interdictor = 10% webbed / 1.5% vs AB
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all cruisers = 80% webbed Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD cruisers = 60% webbed / 30% vs AB Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD cruisers = 40% webbed / 6% vs AB
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all battleships = 80% webbed Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all battleships = 60% webbed Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD battleships = 40% webbed / 18% vs AB ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ |
Sofring Eternus
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.02 20:05:00 -
[205]
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
Originally by: Goumindong
That is exactly what happens now, a primary is called, a single web is applied to the target and the target is anhillated at range by as much DPS as the gang can muster
The changes makes the webs weaker, and doesnt change DPS at all.
yes the dps will be weakend cause now the blaster or autocannon ships that you are having trouble with now will have to fit rails or arties thus lowering there dps.
No, they wont, because blasters and autocannons are good in the short range and decent in the med range[on battleships], and have advantages that the longer range ships do not!
how do they have an advantage if you web them before they can even get a good run on you?
Short range guns have bonus to both damage and tracking, as well as having lower fitting requirements.
That allows for more damage mods or more tank, or hell even more speed mods to increase the non-MWD speed to get higher transversals while closing and keeping the sig. radius down thus lowering the effectiveness of the long range webbers until you are in your optimal range for dealing DPS and killing his tracking with your transversal at close range. ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ |
Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 20:12:00 -
[206]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 20:14:29
Originally by: Sofring Eternus What is the difference between the proposed changes and the current system of tacklers?
The tacklers will web for less, and the battleships will lose slots to fit the 40% webbers that are only effective against MWD'ing cruisers or larger.
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD interdictor = 80% webbed / 33% vs AB Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 83% effective against MWD interdictor = 50% webbed / 8% vs AB Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 25% effective against MWD interdictor = 10% webbed / 1.5% vs AB
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all cruisers = 80% webbed Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD cruisers = 60% webbed / 30% vs AB Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD cruisers = 40% webbed / 6% vs AB
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all battleships = 80% webbed Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all battleships = 60% webbed Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD battleships = 40% webbed / 18% vs AB
current best webber is a 10km 90% which the demois and smaller have a hard enough time already with but the further you go out the harder it is for a blaster ship to even deliver any kind of damage. autocannons have a little more range to play with but still. the frther you go out the harder it is to damage someone. as I stated before your gimpig two entire races in favor on the amarr and caladri races. and believe me I would no mind it one one hand since one of my toons flies amarr and caldari. but then your gimping half of my corp m8's cause you guys find it hard to defeat galente and minmatar. now as i said if they either add a mass additon or a inertia nerf of the overdrivers. and maybe gimp snake implants that would fix the speed freak issue. why nerf a main weapon platform for two races jsut ecasue they stick nan's and overdrivers in there lows and have 2bil wort of snakes in there head? deal with the problem and dont make new ones that will affect more players then you thought of.
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Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 20:16:00 -
[207]
Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 20:16:54 [ Originally by: Sofring Eternus
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Develon Hitaki
Originally by: Goumindong
That is exactly what happens now, a primary is called, a single web is applied to the target and the target is anhillated at range by as much DPS as the gang can muster
The changes makes the webs weaker, and doesnt change DPS at all.
yes the dps will be weakend cause now the blaster or autocannon ships that you are having trouble with now will have to fit rails or arties thus lowering there dps.
No, they wont, because blasters and autocannons are good in the short range and decent in the med range[on battleships], and have advantages that the longer range ships do not!
how do they have an advantage if you web them before they can even get a good run on you?
Short range guns have bonus to both damage and tracking, as well as having lower fitting requirements.
That allows for more damage mods or more tank, or hell even more speed mods to increase the non-MWD speed to get higher transversals while closing and keeping the sig. radius down thus lowering the effectiveness of the long range webbers until you are in your optimal range for dealing DPS and killing his tracking with your transversal at close range.
your forgetting that one of the bonuses for the thorax and demois is the MWD cap usage. which was a intended design from the devs.
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Sofring Eternus
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.02 20:23:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Develon Hitaki Edited by: Develon Hitaki on 02/10/2007 20:14:29
Originally by: Sofring Eternus What is the difference between the proposed changes and the current system of tacklers?
The tacklers will web for less, and the battleships will lose slots to fit the 40% webbers that are only effective against MWD'ing cruisers or larger.
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD interdictor = 80% webbed / 33% vs AB Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 83% effective against MWD interdictor = 50% webbed / 8% vs AB Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 25% effective against MWD interdictor = 10% webbed / 1.5% vs AB
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all cruisers = 80% webbed Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD cruisers = 60% webbed / 30% vs AB Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD cruisers = 40% webbed / 6% vs AB
Small Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all battleships = 80% webbed Medium Tech2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against all battleships = 60% webbed Large Tech 2 Webber as outlined: 100% effective against MWD battleships = 40% webbed / 18% vs AB
current best webber is a 10km 90% which the demois and smaller have a hard enough time already with but the further you go out the harder it is for a blaster ship to even deliver any kind of damage. autocannons have a little more range to play with but still. the frther you go out the harder it is to damage someone.
If you look at current balance there is always a strong close range version, and a weaker long range version. Webbers are currently the exception to this rule. This attempts to balance that.
It also increases the usefulness of afterburners and target painters, and if you want, turret disrupters against all the new mid/long range setups. ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ |
Develon Hitaki
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Posted - 2007.10.02 20:30:00 -
[209]
but then ur taking away more mids for other things like warp distruptors and a reg webber. all im saying is changing the webbers is not needed at this point what the root of the problem is the speed freaks and the ships they fly, the mod and implants. so vagabond again: everytime he puts in a overdriver have it increased the inertia thus causing it to slow down when orbiting. or geting rid of the omega implant so it doesnt give a boost to all other snake implants. that would be more reasonable then gimpig 50% of the races by tossing in an uneeded mod.
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Sofring Eternus
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.02 20:31:00 -
[210]
Edited by: Sofring Eternus on 02/10/2007 20:36:44 No one said to disable all MWD's, this is providing a counter that doesnt rely on faction ships, faction loot, or on the MWD being within 10km
EDIT: Quote: but then ur taking away more mids for other things like warp distruptors and a reg webber. all im saying is changing the webbers is not needed at this point what the root of the problem is the speed freaks and the ships they fly, the mod and implants. so vagabond again: everytime he puts in a overdriver have it increased the inertia thus causing it to slow down when orbiting. or geting rid of the omega implant so it doesnt give a boost to all other snake implants. that would be more reasonable then gimpig 50% of the races by tossing in an uneeded mod.
Goumindong already showed how even after the lower strength ranged webbers are applied MWD can still be used to keep up transversal and lower incoming damage. Please attempt to keep the "big picture" that you keep mentioning in mind. There is more to combat than approach + F1 - F8 ΞνΞ ΘΠLІΠΞ |
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