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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.19 20:42:00 -
[31]
If the observer doesn't come in until right at the end, they might as well not bother; we'll find out whether or not your accounts are legitimate on the day the dividends are due 
However, I assume that you (on behalf of your corp?) will be setting the numerous courier contracts involved, so your competitors/investors can always just look at your contract history (or even accept a random sample of contracts throughout the IPO) to see what you're doing.
I spent some time last year doing exactly the same thing that you're proposing to do, so I have a fairly good idea of the amount of work involved. I found it rather repetitive and pulled out after a few months, probably because I didn't have so much capital and had to set contracts quite frequently.
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.20 07:29:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
If the observer doesn't come in until right at the end, they might as well not bother; we'll find out whether or not your accounts are legitimate on the day the dividends are due
However, I assume that you (on behalf of your corp?) will be setting the numerous courier contracts involved, so your competitors/investors can always just look at your contract history (or even accept a random sample of contracts throughout the IPO) to see what you're doing.
I spent some time last year doing exactly the same thing that you're proposing to do, so I have a fairly good idea of the amount of work involved. I found it rather repetitive and pulled out after a few months, probably because I didn't have so much capital and had to set contracts quite frequently.
As I understood it the point of the observer was to confirm I was not skimming funds off the top rather than anything else. I wouldn't want one in for the whole time I was running it for the same reason as I wouldn't give out API keys, it's too much specific information about what I'm doing.
I will be setting the contracts but they will be internal to the corp so I don't believe outsiders could see the history? Even if it is vidible, this is less of an issue because the contracts do not give any details of the items that are transported.
It is a large amount of work and it is pretty repetitive. Last time I limited myself to only creating contracts when the ISK amount of goods at a station was over 5 mil. This reduced the time spent somewhat. The killer came at the end when I created contracts for everything that was lest over. It took me about 2-3 days to create the 200+ contracts required for that. So I'm well aware of what I'm getting myself into. :)
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.20 07:39:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Ricdic
Have someone hold your shares as security over the 1 month period. I am willing to fund your whole venture myself if you provide this level of security, as would many others.
You can take the unsecured route in the future. Prove yourself and your reputation will grow over time.
Hell, Eefrit was a nobody when he started FIN (well, a nobody in the market discussion world), so he had FIN assets secured above the amount of cash he was taking.
Now, he has FINU of which he has something like 200b of people's funds based purely on reputation gained after running such a successful operation with FIN.
You can end up in the same scenario but it's all about taking small steps to start.
Give me a yell ingame if you want a private investor and are willing to provide security.
Thanks for the advice, it's an interesting idea that I would cetainly be willing to consider, though only with a few individuals.
However, I'd rather not have the extra hassle if I can avoid it. I'm now expecting to open to public on Wednesday so if we get to Saturday and there are still shares left (I'd be very suprised if there wern't in all honesty) then I'd be happy to arrange somthing like this with a few larger, well known investors to make up the 4 bil total.
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Shadarle
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Posted - 2007.09.20 07:39:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Ambo
As I understood it the point of the observer was to confirm I was not skimming funds off the top rather than anything else. I wouldn't want one in for the whole time I was running it for the same reason as I wouldn't give out API keys, it's too much specific information about what I'm doing.
Well, if the person wasn't in the whole time then you could have been funneling ISK away every day/week and no one would be the wiser.
It's just very tough to trust someone that is quite unknown in this community. Not because I can't afford to lose the money... but because I absolutely do not want a scammer to get money from me. I'd rather the money disappeared into thin air than to have a scammer get it. So that's my issue... but you don't really seem to be a scammer, I'm just getting a weird vibe from this.
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Dr Slurm
General Commodities
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Posted - 2007.09.20 07:44:00 -
[35]
I would suggest setting up a script with a neutral third party that would use the Full API key to log the journal/market transactions. This log would be compiled then analyzed before the div payout and your scheme would be protected at least until the end of the agreement and hopefully after if the third party was worth their salt.
I think that is somewhat of a compromise.
What I believe to be the real cause of the problem here is that you said you would return 100% of the profits, whereas profits are undefined.
If you said ROI 50% that would be much more appealing and straight forward. Otherwise you get into this quandary of proving you aren't embezzling funds.
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.20 09:24:00 -
[36]
lol, I suppose I have shot myself in the foot a bit with that...
It really comes down to this: If, at the end of the month, I gave you back your investment + 100% and kept some for myself without telling you then would you consider yourself to have been scammed?
I know I'd have said I would give 100% profits and instead I've given only (for example) 90% of profits but you'd still be well up at the end of it.
I've actually wrote a program that logs all the transactions/journal entries and can produce financial reports and various other things. I thought it would be nice to provide a weekly update on progress with this. At the end I'd be happy to post complete XML logs of all transactions for the month for anyone to do as they wished with as I'll be taking a break from trading for a while afterwards so it wouldn't be hurting me. (Is that the sort of thing you are suggesting Slurm?)
I suppose I could just be taking isk the whole time, in fact I could even do it in very subtle ways that would be impossible to notice. For example, the courier contracts are internal to the corp, any or all of those completing the contracts could be my alts simply giving the cash back to me.
There are plenty of ways that I couild exploit this to make myself some extra cash on the side so I suppose the giving 100% of the profits thing just has to be taken on trust really.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.20 10:30:00 -
[37]
I think I would be satisfied if you allowed a shareholders' representative/external auditor to put an alt in the corp that does all the non-public courier contracts. They wouldn't need journal access, but they'd still be able to inspect the odd contract at random and keep tabs on the volume of goods being moved. Would this be acceptable to you?
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.20 11:12:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
I think I would be satisfied if you allowed a shareholders' representative/external auditor to put an alt in the corp that does all the non-public courier contracts. They wouldn't need journal access, but they'd still be able to inspect the odd contract at random and keep tabs on the volume of goods being moved. Would this be acceptable to you?
Yes, this would seem to be a good option.
My next question then would be who would do this checking? Is there someone out there that offers this kind of service or would be interested in doing this and has a good rep?
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.20 11:37:00 -
[39]
Ricdic seems to have an immense number of alts - he could probably provide one, since he's already expressed an interest.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.20 15:07:00 -
[40]
I am interested in sponsoring the OP through the EBANK. Provide him the ISK he requires and allow him to work it himself. Wouldn't dream of charging him 100% a month in interest, would more prefer a long term contract at a far more realistic rate with shares held as a security.
He seems more interested in the API or alt option which in my opinion is unsecured. You may show you can trade but nothing stops you from walking away tomorrow.
With your shares held as collateral it means you may still earn some cash if you walk away but the majority of the investment can be recovered in the event of scam/disapearance.
I hope the OP contacts me about this as I really want to have a chat.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.20 15:43:00 -
[41]
Ricdic, I don't understand why you think the IPO is so much more secure if Ambo's shares are held by someone else. The shares become worthless if he walks away and this wouldn't prevent him from doing so. The only difference it would make is that investors would know what fraction of declared profits he's keeping for himself as dividends; as he's already said, there are many ways he could siphon off isk.
That said, it's still a good idea and I hope Ambo will consent to it.
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Ricdic
Caldari
Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.20 15:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro
Ricdic, I don't understand why you think the IPO is so much more secure if Ambo's shares are held by someone else. The shares become worthless if he walks away and this wouldn't prevent him from doing so. The only difference it would make is that investors would know what fraction of declared profits he's keeping for himself as dividends; as he's already said, there are many ways he could siphon off isk.
That said, it's still a good idea and I hope Ambo will consent to it.
He has advised that he holds shares in other corporations like C-R-A and ISSO to the tune of about 4 billion isk. If he is willing to use those as security, the EBANK will sponsor him in a contract for a 5b loan. Obviously some details need to be sorted out first. So because his shares are with other reputable corps it means there shouldn't be a problem (unless he is tied to ISSO and scams both at once  )
I see no reason why the OP wouldn't consider this. He will recieve the dividends on those shares, and recieve them all back upon completion of the contract he does with us, or recieve them back over time as he proves himself trustworthy.
In my opinion it is far easier for him to do things this way rather than needing to run a public IPO, and if he is after reputation there is no reason why the EBANK wouldn't report on his successes if he chose to take operations public in the future.
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Kazuo Ishiguro
House of Marbles
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.20 16:19:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 20/09/2007 16:21:53
Thank you for clarifying that point. The only trouble is that if it becomes a fully secured venture, Ambo can't so easily gain as much trust on which to build a larger, unsecured one later. That said, he can still establish that he's competent and capable of providing a decent rate of returns, and this is definitely worthwhile.
I saw him first, though, and I hope he'll let me invest before you buy out the entire IPO on behalf of the EBANK 
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.20 16:45:00 -
[44]
hehe, first you're scared now you fight over who's going to invest! 
I've actually had more interest than I expected and I no longer think there will be any problem raising the full 4 bil.
I'm intrigued by the EBANK idea. It would certainly a simpler way to raise the cash. However, I'd have a few issues with it.
Firstly, I just like the idea of doing a 'proper' IPO, even if it is a fairly small scale one.
Secondly, somehow making a whole load of money for a bank rather than individual players seems less fun.
Finally, I'd prefer having numerous 'references' rather than just one, even one as bullet proof as EBANK.
As you can see, the first reasons are pretty nebulous and are based on emotion rather than logic. I'll certainly consider this carefully though.
I've got about a week left before the planned public launch date so plenty of time to mull things over.
Regardless of all this, some of the cash invested will be my own and some will come from my corp members. To raise the rest, I'd be more open to going with a few big private investors than just one. Then I'd get some of the feel of running an IPO but with less of the headaches. Sounds like a good middle ground to me.
Ricdic and Kazuo, I'll contact you both in-game to discuss this further.
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Kitex
Blacktag Test Labs
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Posted - 2007.09.20 17:25:00 -
[45]
Quite a few folks have expressed an interest, despite this still being potential high risk in unsecured form. With that in mind, I do hope you open it up to the public first rather than dealing in-game with a single private investor, especially since that's where your heart seems to be anyway.
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Hexxx
Minmatar
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Posted - 2007.09.20 19:27:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Ambo
hehe, first you're scared now you fight over who's going to invest!
I've actually had more interest than I expected and I no longer think there will be any problem raising the full 4 bil.
I'm intrigued by the EBANK idea. It would certainly a simpler way to raise the cash. However, I'd have a few issues with it.
Firstly, I just like the idea of doing a 'proper' IPO, even if it is a fairly small scale one.
Secondly, somehow making a whole load of money for a bank rather than individual players seems less fun.
Finally, I'd prefer having numerous 'references' rather than just one, even one as bullet proof as EBANK.
As you can see, the first reasons are pretty nebulous and are based on emotion rather than logic. I'll certainly consider this carefully though.
I've got about a week left before the planned public launch date so plenty of time to mull things over.
Regardless of all this, some of the cash invested will be my own and some will come from my corp members. To raise the rest, I'd be more open to going with a few big private investors than just one. Then I'd get some of the feel of running an IPO but with less of the headaches. Sounds like a good middle ground to me.
Ricdic and Kazuo, I'll contact you both in-game to discuss this further.
If it makes you feel any better, the profit from the investment would benefit the account holders of EBANK. Only 1% of monthly profits for EBANK go to Directors. And that 1% is divided 7 ways.
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SencneS
Amarr
Balsarferskratchin Inc
Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.09.20 23:13:00 -
[47]
I think there is a real attraction to multiple people (IPO style) corporation.But only having to deal with one person is also easier to manage. You only have to beg for forgiveness from one rather then many if you fail to meet your needs. You also can negotiate better on private terms rather then publicly.
Either way I hope you do well in this venture. 
Amarr for Life |
Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.21 07:39:00 -
[48]
Just a quick one to say thanks to everyone who has posted for your questions, support and ideas.
The interest that people have shown really makes this worthwhile for me and after being a little unsure and nervous at the start, I'm now very glad I decided to go ahead.
Thanks again!
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ZGhostZ
Caldari
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.22 11:22:00 -
[49]
Believe me if he screws up he has to beg for forgiveniss to multiple people couse he will be kicking people in the shins that he has been playing with for more then 3 years (planetside and eve). Couse there is 1 thing to be said is that many outcasters just stick to the outfit / corp no matter what game they play.
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Ambo
2nd Outcasters
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Posted - 2007.09.22 19:13:00 -
[50]
Originally by: ZGhostZ
Believe me if he screws up he has to beg for forgiveniss to multiple people couse he will be kicking people in the shins that he has been playing with for more then 3 years (planetside and eve). Couse there is 1 thing to be said is that many outcasters just stick to the outfit / corp no matter what game they play.
lol, thanks Ghosty... I think!
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