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Wanting to sell Sacriliege, 650M ISK, to break even with invention.

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Benvie	Posted - 2007.09.19 21:43:00 - [31] Don't get angry because you lost money due to not having a clue what you're doing. Invention is profitable for those with enough clue.
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.19 21:46:00 - [32] Originally by: Illyria Ambri You also posted this in the wrong section. Double failure Says the guy who replied to the 4 year old thread just recently. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
ardik TunkbwahCorp	Posted - 2007.09.19 21:46:00 - [33] Originally by: Benvie Don't get angry because you lost money due to not having a clue what you're doing. Invention is profitable for those with enough clue. Actually, for 90% of the people that do invention it's horribly unprofitable since you're competing with people that use "free" datacores(ie. cores they've gotten from their own agents), so they don't factor that into the final costs. This leaves you with people basically selling at a loss since they could have sold the cores for far more than their horrible invention job on a HAC that's barely selling. But don't tell anyone, below cost T2 is pretty funny to see.
Cambarus Kissaki Confederation Slammer's Republic	Posted - 2007.09.19 21:48:00 - [34] Originally by: Fswd Originally by: Gort Originally by: Ira Theos This is just another glaring case of CCP demonstrating their great skill at putting their head up their arse when it comes to Eve's economic model. Why don't they sit down with their economics guru professor and let him explain to them in simple terms why the still existing T2 Cartel combined with stupid cost ratios in invention will not support a "player driven" economy. CCP's ignorant concern about not offending the handful of "beta" players who own all the T2 BPOs is spoiling the game for 98 percent or more of it's paying customers. What is the point of worrying about isk sellers when the basic economic model of the game is so fatally flawed by design? Now, THAT's a whine.... No its actually the truth in this case . Since invention; look at hoe the t2 mod prices dropped. 1)Stop complaining about the people who own t2 BPOs. Can you immagine CCP killing off tens of billions of isk from your wallet because (in someone else's mind) it's an unfair advantage? Then immagine having SPENT 10s of billions of isk to get the damn BPO in the first place. (Because yes a lot of people with TII BPOs did spend a lot of money to get them). If you think that's "fair" then send me a good 10bilion isk and I'd be more then happy to join you in your whine to have those pesky BPOs killed off 2)As far as the argument of a messed up economy goes... Tech II mods and ships have, for the most part, plummeted in price. IMO this i great, because the artificially inflated prices of old are no longer a problem. The prices dropped to whatever the inventers would allow it to, and no lower. For every person who stops inventing things, there are fewer tech II mods in the game being made. As this happens, prices for the mods go up, meaning the inventors have a much stronger influence on the market then people give them credit for. One might argue that since the owners of tII BPOs are lowering the market values just as they raised them before, in order to undercut the prices of the other sellers. Fortunately though, people are greedy. The TII BPO owners will sell their wares for the highest price they can get away with, meaning that fewer competitors (inventors) will mean higher prices. In my oppinion one of the large problems with invention isn't that people aren't making enough money, but that they expect to make more then they do. Greedy little buggers who think back to how much money the owners of tech II BPOs made, and assume that getting into invention will just rake in the isk. Invention is, by deign, supposed to be a risky thing to get into, and while you may make a lot of cash, you could just as easily lose out. Oh and one last thing: No one's forcing you to do invention, if you don't like it then stop doing it...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.19 21:49:00 - [35] That's why you just whip out the two XLSs I just linked to, calculate average profit in the first one, if it looks like it's a decent profit you go to the second one, look about how many tries you must do to get decent enough odds (beat bad streaks)... and then go do it. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Devian 666 Sectoid Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.19 22:20:00 - [36] Originally by: ardik Originally by: Benvie Don't get angry because you lost money due to not having a clue what you're doing. Invention is profitable for those with enough clue. Actually, for 90% of the people that do invention it's horribly unprofitable since you're competing with people that use "free" datacores(ie. cores they've gotten from their own agents), so they don't factor that into the final costs. This leaves you with people basically selling at a loss since they could have sold the cores for far more than their horrible invention job on a HAC that's barely selling. But don't tell anyone, below cost T2 is pretty funny to see. It's as I've said before the problem isn't with the invention system the problem is with the inventors. They don't do their research and complain that they lost isk. If they'd checked to see if they'd make isk they wouldn't be losing it. The people who think datacores are "free" don't understand opportunity cost. You can sell the datacores for profit and little effort. Yet some inventors choose to lose isk compared with just selling datacores. CCP nerf the inventors. I agree I don't have the features to be a holoreel star. Most people have missed the point that this is Mobsters Online and that carebears are at the bottom of the foodchain.
Benvie	Posted - 2007.09.20 03:11:00 - [37] Edited by: Benvie on 20/09/2007 03:11:58 Originally by: ardik Originally by: Benvie Don't get angry because you lost money due to not having a clue what you're doing. Invention is profitable for those with enough clue. Actually, for 90% of the people that do invention it's horribly unprofitable since you're competing with people that use "free" datacores(ie. cores they've gotten from their own agents), so they don't factor that into the final costs. This leaves you with people basically selling at a loss since they could have sold the cores for far more than their horrible invention job on a HAC that's barely selling. But don't tell anyone, below cost T2 is pretty funny to see. Actually, people aren't making a profit because they don't know what they're doing. I've done the calculations. I can make a HEFTY profit off of any popular tech 2 item, ship or module. For example, one of the most competitive tech 2 items is probably a Hulk. Despite the hefty competition building them, I could make 30 million+ per unit inventing them. That is based on purchasing all materials off Jita and selling them in Jita. That includes even buying the BPCs and not copying them myself. Fact is people just don't understand how Invention works beyond the basics. They think they can just do a bunch of random stuff and have it work. I'll take the original post as an example. Number one, he was using a base item. In pretty much all ship invention, using a base item (a ship) to do the invention job SIGNIFICANTLY reduces the profit margin or destroys it all together. Number two, he ran a job without a dercryptor. For what reason, I don't know, my best guess is he sees invention more like a slot machine than an actual business investment. Number three, he used the least chance decryptor and was SURPRISED when he only got one success in 10 runs. Using that decryptor his success rate is roughly 8%, which is less than one in 10. People who have no idea how invention works and have no business sense have no ground to stand on when complaining. Invention is hugely profitable if you know what the hell you're doing.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.20 03:16:00 - [38] Want to make invention profitable? Farm the cosmos cans yourself.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2007.09.20 03:25:00 - [39] Originally by: Steve Hawkings Originally by: Ira Theos This is just another glaring case of CCP demonstrating their great skill at putting their head up their arse when it comes to Eve's economic model. Why don't they sit down with their economics guru professor and let him explain to them in simple terms why the still existing T2 Cartel combined with stupid cost ratios in invention will not support a "player driven" economy. CCP's ignorant concern about not offending the handful of "beta" players who own all the T2 BPOs is spoiling the game for 98 percent or more of it's paying customers. What is the point of worrying about isk sellers when the basic economic model of the game is so fatally flawed by design? OP's Alt ? *********** No! I've been preaching against the T2 BPO fiasco for much longer than the OP.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.09.20 03:31:00 - [40] Meh.. Invention is coming along nicely.. Give it some time after all the current rush to deploy/hotfix RevIII is over and by that time the economist they hired should have some juicy suggestions for the Devs to try out.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Hayah Theos	Posted - 2007.09.20 04:03:00 - [41] Cambarus said: "1)Stop complaining about the people who own t2 BPOs. Can you immagine CCP killing off tens of billions of isk from your wallet because (in someone else's mind) it's an unfair advantage? Then immagine having SPENT 10s of billions of isk to get the damn BPO in the first place. (Because yes a lot of people with TII BPOs did spend a lot of money to get them). If you think that's "fair" then send me a good 10bilion isk and I'd be more then happy to join you in your whine to have those pesky BPOs killed off" *********** I am not complaining about T2 BPO "owners", I am complaining about how the significant BPOs destroy competion balance in the game. Despite the "PvP" paraders, Eve is economic warfare at it's core. Anything that delivers economic supremacy to a small subset of the player base is a bad thing from game design perspective. A good analogy would be a game of Monopoly in which a card is inserted into community chest deck that when drawn by one of the players, would bequeath all the high-rent properties to that player in one turn. It's a game breaker. ******* "Oh and one last thing: No one's forcing you to do invention, if you don't like it then stop doing it..." ************** I don't... I just sell the datacores.
Brucette	Posted - 2007.09.20 04:49:00 - [42] Originally by: Cambarus 1)Stop complaining about the people who own t2 BPOs. Can you immagine CCP killing off tens of billions of isk from your wallet because (in someone else's mind) it's an unfair advantage? Then immagine having SPENT 10s of billions of isk to get the damn BPO in the first place. (Because yes a lot of people with TII BPOs did spend a lot of money to get them). If you think that's "fair" then send me a good 10bilion isk and I'd be more then happy to join you in your whine to have those pesky BPOs killed off Well, actually, CCP has show in the past that they are quite happy to blow away items that people have paid money for (snowballs anyone?). While there is a difference in scale, there is absolutely no difference in principle.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.09.20 05:12:00 - [43] Originally by: Hayah Theos I am not complaining about T2 BPO "owners", I am complaining about how the significant BPOs destroy competion balance in the game. Despite the "PvP" paraders, Eve is economic warfare at it's core. Anything that delivers economic supremacy to a small subset of the player base is a bad thing from game design perspective. A good analogy would be a game of Monopoly in which a card is inserted into community chest deck that when drawn by one of the players, would bequeath all the high-rent properties to that player in one turn. It's a game breaker. Okay. . . And then most of the current owners bought Boardwalk and Park Place from the lucky sod who drew that card. Now, to keep things fair,the banker removes the ability to build Hotels at all, and limits Houses. Boardwalk and PP are still good, but no longer crushing. Now, the other players feel that Boardwalk is still too nasty, and somehow convince the banker of their plight. The banker removes Boardwalk and Park Place from the game. The current owner just forked over X Monopoly money he got from mortgaging the Orange properties (I cba to remember the names), and the guy who drew that card is laughing all the way to the bank. Is that fair? Guy who drew the card is rich. Guy who bought the properties is screwed. -------------------------------------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Maniva Lakona	Posted - 2007.09.20 05:32:00 - [44] I'll give you 600mil for it, but please fit some named useful mods to it.
Brucette	Posted - 2007.09.20 06:35:00 - [45] Edited by: Brucette on 20/09/2007 06:38:07 Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Guy who bought the properties is screwed. If this occurred, then clearly he did not value his purchases correctly. Edit: The buyer is "betting" that CCP will never turn the BPO into a "Tattered Parchment 1". Not all bets are winners...
Mrs Amadeus	Posted - 2007.09.20 08:06:00 - [46] Just to chime in and make the OP feel better. I have also been attempting to make amarrian HACs using the 9-run decryptor and max-run copies. The result so far... 0/19. My skills are 5/4/4.
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:04:00 - [47] I find it amazing, and I am rarely amazed, that anybody thought CCP would put something into Eve that might endanger the Veteran Playerbase's grip over those who haven't been in Eve since alpha testing. When T3 or whatever is released, you can Bet Your Arse, that it will have a dependancy on T2, thus maintaining the Veteran grip. Face it, if you weren't here from the beginning you will never be bigger than a small fish. You think the first rule is "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" It's not. It's "Don't upset the Veteran Playerbase"
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.09.20 10:14:00 - [48] This is nothing out of the ordinary, especially with that decryptor. There's a 13.5% chance (approx.) of 19 consecutive failures in the situation you describe. I've added an estimate of initial 'start-up capital' requirements (based on decrpytor choice) to yet another version of the spreadsheet. Various parts have been reformatted - I'm quite partial to 'scientific' numbering when dealing with values that vary by orders of magnitude - and I've tried to make it a bit easier to use. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Sakura Nihil Stimulus	Posted - 2007.09.20 21:46:00 - [49] Originally by: Gaven Blands I find it amazing, and I am rarely amazed, that anybody thought CCP would put something into Eve that might endanger the Veteran Playerbase's grip over those who haven't been in Eve since alpha testing. Don't forget to stock up on tinfoil from the CAOD section of the forums while you're here. Eve Golden Rules
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.09.21 08:53:00 - [50] Originally by: Sakura Nihil ..fanboi crap.. Better to wear tinfoil than a blindfold. You can have the last word, I'll not reply to your next troll.
Original Copy	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:26:00 - [51] I don't even bother to invent ships... firstly because the interfaces are stupidly expensive, and the profit-per-run is abysmal compared to modules & drones. Ammunition invention is likewise non-profit. Using decryptors has not altered my success rate unless it's down. For instance, running 100 invention jobs for power diag II without decryptors resulted in exactly 43 successful runs (43%) with all of the relevant skills at 5. The following 100, using a variety of decryptors (not including the +9/-60% 'circular logic' decryptor) resulted in... 47 successes. Overall I ended up with considerably more production runs, but the massive drop in material efficiency using decryptors reduced the overall profits to about the same as the first 43 runs that did not use decryptors at all. So... invention is pretty expensive to do, guranteeing those with BPO's considerable profits despite the drop in market values caused by invention. And: As for the lottery and any new release of T2 items... we hope that BPO's WILL be seeded to a lucky few. If they limit the new T2 gear to 'invention only' they need to drop the base resulting ME to 0 (since BPCs cannot be researched!!).
Snake Jankins Minmatar German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.21 09:42:00 - [52] Edited by: Snake Jankins on 21/09/2007 09:42:52 Originally by: Original Copy If they limit the new T2 gear to 'invention only' they need to drop the base resulting ME to 0 (since BPCs cannot be researched!!). Why ? The prices of all modules that are in high demand are mostly determined by the price that inventor take. I assume most common used mods come from invention already and if the demand for one mod rises, inventors just throw more on the market. Btw did the webbifier II bpo ever make it into the lottery or the nanofiber II and overdrive II bpos or the cap-power-relay II or the shield-power-relay II ? I assume not. ___________ I've never been so serious as I am now. No, really.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.21 11:50:00 - [53] Pretty much correct, for modules, using decryptors is usually neither necessary nor very useful... but the bigger the ship (cost of one invention run), the more useful decryptors get (especially the x1.3 chance +4 run and x0.4 chance +9 run ones)... for the T2 BSs, they should be almost completely mandatory if you plan on market domination. As for the need of T2 BPOs... give me a break. All that T2 BPOs do is either supply the market with stuff nobody wants nor needs (because it's barely worth manufacturing from the BPO in the first place), or give the owners a huge profit margin over inventors for "desirable" items. The price of desirable items however is set by INVENTORS already, and the existance of BPOs is irrelevant for the final market price. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained

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