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Helox
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.09.21 14:21:00 -
[1]
I was thinking, after reading all the complaints about invention... Would it be a good change if invention always gave a T2 BPC.
Now, before you actually use that flamethrower, let me elaborate.
Right now there is a hidden algorithm that determins wether or not you get a BPC. Instead of using that, let's use another one. One that calculates the ME / PE value of your BPC. Say you start an invention job. You know you will get a BPC, but without anything more than the basic skills, that BPC will most certainly become a -50/-50 BPC.
If you have all the skills maxed, and all the required chance enhancing modules, then you have a better chance of getting a decent one.
For instance, with maximum skill and modules, you will have a 1% chance of a +50/+50 one. 20% between +10/+10 and +30/+30, 29% between 0/0 and +10/+10, and the same chances going down.
Ofc, above numbers are completly made up and need HEAVILY alteration before this idea even makes sence.
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the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
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Tunak
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Posted - 2007.09.21 14:42:00 -
[2]
Not a bad idea. Needs refining though as -50/-50 is effectively the same as failing. The build cost would be more than the cost to purchase multiple items.
Your scale needs to be adjusted. ME 30 and ME 50 are effectively the same thing. Less than a percent different.
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Nemtar Nataal
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Posted - 2007.09.21 15:20:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Nemtar Nataal on 21/09/2007 15:20:23
not really as some ships are alwayes worth building right?
If price and demand is high then a me -50 bpo would still be worth it.
I do agree with helox the current system dosnt really work very well. Especially not when you take game play into account.
Why would you make a 5 run bpc of some ship...while you are working on the invention why not make it a 500 run copy.
(shouldnt this be in the game development section)
This have all been brught up before...im just listing a couple of unbalanced things.
And maybe ccp could change it so that a bad me bpc could be used as meta component in a new invention job.
That way your invention job never really fails you just get closer and closer to the goal.
Next time you do invention the level of the bpc have to be atleast 1% bether then the meta component you supplyed...
That way invention becomes a iterative process where you learn from your mistakes.
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Altaree
Red Frog Investments
Blue Sky Consortium
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Posted - 2007.09.21 15:26:00 -
[4]
I really like the iterative process idea. And don't forget, the crappiness of a BPC is judges solely by the value of it's product on the LOCAL market. You just have fewer profitable markets in which to sell your product.
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Helox
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.09.21 19:28:00 -
[5]
Basicly, I don't own a t2 BPO, and I was looking into invention. I just figured that the current system in nice and all, but the problem is that you might actually have to do several inventions before you get something.
From all the remarks I've read, people suggest that you need at least 1B after initial investment to keep the inventions running. All in all, you will eventually make profit, but because of the chances it might be after a dozen attempts...
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the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
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Admiral Nova
Strike Team Nova
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Posted - 2007.09.22 11:30:00 -
[6]
Invention is supposed to be something you have to really get into to do, not something everyone can do every couple of weeks.
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Helox
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.09.22 15:40:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Admiral Nova
Invention is supposed to be something you have to really get into to do, not something everyone can do every couple of weeks
I call BS. Mining, missions, PVP and basicly EVERYTHING in Eve you can do every some time. You might never be the best in it, but you can do it. Right now you can do invention, if you have several billion to sink into it. Else it is pretty much a closed circuit.
Besides, why would invention or T2 be exclusive? I aggree it shouldn't be like the T1 market, where everyone can buy a BPO, research it to dead and sell it with 1% loss. But ever since that ridiculous lottery it has been a closed market, only accessible by people with loads of money, or very lucky. My proposal would just open it up to way more people, without threathening the profits of the players allready doing invention or who own a BPO.
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the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
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Sphynx Stormlord
Gallente
Anqara Tech
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Posted - 2007.09.23 11:06:00 -
[8]
I would like to see some of the failure chance replaced by success, but inventing named rather than t2.
And bpc ME/PE be reserachable.
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R0ger Wilco
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Posted - 2007.09.23 11:09:00 -
[9]
I happend to like this idea of course the numbers need to be tweaked, having a game mechanic being completely chance based when you have to invest so much time and isk seems abit wrong to me.
This way you at least get a reward for your efforts which in turn could be used to improve the chances next time instead of getting nothing 20 times in a row.
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Qual
Gallente
Cornexant Research
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Posted - 2007.09.23 11:48:00 -
[10]
Originally by: R0ger Wilco
I happend to like this idea of course the numbers need to be tweaked, having a game mechanic being completely chance based when you have to invest so much time and isk seems abit wrong to me.
This way you at least get a reward for your efforts which in turn could be used to improve the chances next time instead of getting nothing 20 times in a row.
Actually the chance base is what make invention WORK. If it did not require a fair degree of investment to do right, the market would completely crash, making invention good only for supplying yourself.
And more useless drops? EVE have enough of those. No thank you.
"The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf |
R0ger Wilco
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Posted - 2007.09.23 11:59:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Qual
Originally by: R0ger Wilco
I happend to like this idea of course the numbers need to be tweaked, having a game mechanic being completely chance based when you have to invest so much time and isk seems abit wrong to me.
This way you at least get a reward for your efforts which in turn could be used to improve the chances next time instead of getting nothing 20 times in a row.
Actually the chance base is what make invention WORK. If it did not require a fair degree of investment to do right, the market would completely crash, making invention good only for supplying yourself.
And more useless drops? EVE have enough of those. No thank you.
Try reading before answering next time. I didnt complain about the cost I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with getting no result 6zillion(exageration) times in a row.
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DTMF
Puzzleball Industries
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Posted - 2007.09.26 11:59:00 -
[12]
Makes me think of a scene from Rozencrantz and Guildenstern are dead :P
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Balcura
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Posted - 2007.09.27 03:26:00 -
[13]
I like the idea about every BPC attempt succeding, but the level of success creats the meta level of the item. ie a heavy launcher invention job could result in a 10 run malkuth heavy launcher BPC, a 10 run arby heavy launcher BPC or a 10 run tech 2 heavy launcher BPC.
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Helen Hunts
Gallente
Red Dragon Mining inc
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Posted - 2007.09.27 04:11:00 -
[14]
Good lord no. Invention is not easy in RL, nor is it easy in EVE. Always getting some form of success no matter what would be BAD. Fairly soon, the T2 market would look quite similar to the T1 market. The people who make money by actually doing Invention now are (usually) the folks who put in the time training up the relavant skills up to 4 and 5. If every Invention run gave out something, then a newly created Science character could be inventing (and producing BPCs from it) with just a few hours of training. Not good.
As for the material costs, there are folks out there that would cheerfully build from those prints if it meant they didn't have to buy a BPC from someone else. Heck, there's folks who build tons of stuff without Production Effic. trained to 5, for all that matters.
Invention is supposed to be expensive. Invention is supposed to take a long time. Invention is also designed to let you feel really giddy when you get a high quality BPC with max runs. (They sell for a fortune as well)
Invention could use a little work, but this completely new system you propose is horribly broken. (And yes, I even take into consideration that you're using very rough numbers in the proposal)
_______________________________
Mine da rocks, make more ships.
Pop da rats, make more rigs.
Sell da gear, make more money.
Any Questions? |
Helox
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.09.27 09:52:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Helox on 27/09/2007 09:53:33
Originally by: Helen Hunts
Good lord no. Invention is not easy in RL, nor is it easy in EVE. Always getting some form of success no matter what would be BAD. Fairly soon, the T2 market would look quite similar to the T1 market. The people who make money by actually doing Invention now are (usually) the folks who put in the time training up the relavant skills up to 4 and 5. If every Invention run gave out something, then a newly created Science character could be inventing (and producing BPCs from it) with just a few hours of training. Not good.
As for the material costs, there are folks out there that would cheerfully build from those prints if it meant they didn't have to buy a BPC from someone else. Heck, there's folks who build tons of stuff without Production Effic. trained to 5, for all that matters.
Invention is supposed to be expensive. Invention is supposed to take a long time. Invention is also designed to let you feel really giddy when you get a high quality BPC with max runs. (They sell for a fortune as well)
Invention could use a little work, but this completely new system you propose is horribly broken. (And yes, I even take into consideration that you're using very rough numbers in the proposal)
The problem is that it is impossible to start invention without investing several billion into it. Now, I know some people say it's easy to make that amount of ISK in just a few weeks. I'd like them to evemail me how.
Investing 2B into invention, and having another bil just so you can survive a few bad streaks is crap.
This idea wouldn't make invention too easy. It would make invention possible for more players. You'd get crappy BPC's that cost a tad more to make items with then if you buy them straight from the market.
However, if you'd sell them for people that live far from the markets, it might become worth SOMETHING. Now, the meta thingie doesn't feel right, and it wasn't my idea. But the main idea does give people with higher skills a lot better return on investment, as they might even be able to compete with BPO owners that researched their BPO.
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the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
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Kirjava
Lothian Quay Industries
Zzz
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:45:00 -
[16]
I like the idea, but if the ME level will be below -20 then I would demand to be able to research on the BPC up to ME -8.
Originally by: CCP Morpheus
Post with your alt.
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Kaaii
Caldari
Omega Fleet Enterprises
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.09.27 11:11:00 -
[17]
Its called a "mini-profession" for a reason...
Just as brain surgeons and rocket scientists don't share the same tasks when they wake up every morning. Eve has specializations to allow one group to excel in an area where others fear to tread(or don't want to). While some more general skills (mining) have a broader base, this is primarily due to allowing a new character an avenue to make some money starting off. Invention is a niche, just like a command ship pilot, a perfect refiner, hacker, or exploration junkie.
Watering down your chances for "everyone", yet making a skilled inventor better, increases the demand for the special components which clearly can't even keep up with the current demand now. Making "doing" invention much harder still.
The skills for anyone to excel in the areas of their choice are there, you just need to be committed to your choice to do them.
According to Oveur, existing LSAA's already anchored will stay there.
kieron
Director of Community Relations,
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Helox
Gallente
Demonic Retribution
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.09.27 11:34:00 -
[18]
Getting in there and beeing commited is one thing. Right now, there is a huge stepstone you need to take before you can even enter. I'm a commandship pilot myself, and having invested 7M SP in leadership alone, I can tell you that it cost me under 200M, including 2 CS.
Now, for invention, I'd need 10x times more ISK. And the skillpoints. Where as someone could fly a commmandship without investing more than 150M and 500k SP in leadership. You don't take into account that that is on exactly the same level. I understand that people don't want their moneymaking profession to be watered down, but right now, you need way to much ISK to even consider jumping in.
And don't even get me started on ship invention, which will become fun when the new t2 ships enter.
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the above is my personal opinion and does not necessarily reflect that of the little voices in my head
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Mabari
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Posted - 2007.09.27 14:47:00 -
[19]
wel tbh it isn't that expensive at all.
i bougth a 5 run galente ship interface a galente skillbook, and came out with 1 interface for myself and a 100 mil profit on top.
the changes are out there you just need to have some luck and look into what can be done.
I also trained all my needed skills to 4 and was extremely lucky to get 4 out of my first 5 invention runs to succeed. This percentage will go down, i am sure about that. But in the end its not only about isk investment, its also about oportunity and seeing it.
greets Mabari
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