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Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.22 11:57:00 -
[1]
Here is my opinion regarding Heavy assault missiles :
In my opinion they are useless because they have a range problem. In fact you can hit maximum at 18km if you have maxed your skills
In my opionion they should be between heavy and cruise but they are not.
CCP , are you planning to make these missiles more usefull ?
PS : You have a good indicator to understand that they are useless : watch the market price of those missiles and especially of launchers !
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Aramendel
Amarr
Coreli Corporation
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.09.22 13:22:00 -
[2]
WTS: clue.
They have bigger dps as HMs, ergo they have a shorter range.
If you want to get high ranges with them use jav HAMs, those reach up to 70-80k. But do in exchange only slightly mroe dps than HMs.
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Arthalion Thoidon
Caldari
Splint Eye Probabilities Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.22 13:29:00 -
[3]
First off, I want to make it clear I've never used a single heavy assault missile to date.
Now that's out of the way. I have to say you probably don't understnd what the role which HAM's are supposed to fill is. If like you say they should be halfway between heavy missiles and cruise missiles they would be long range missiles, but HAM's were introduced because for years there was no cruiser sized short range high damage missile. The gap between rockets and torpedoes has now been filled, at last.
If we put the various missiles in 2 lists ( short range and long range ) based on ship class it'll look like this:
Long range: Standard ( frigs & dessies) , Heavy( cruisers & battlecruisers), Cruise( Battleship)
Short range: Rockets(frigs & dessies), HAM( cruisers & battlecruisers) torpedoes( Battleship) Citadel torps( caps)
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Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.22 13:39:00 -
[4]
It is completly useless because on inty you fit MWD but on Cruise or on Commands it sucks too much capa.
Really, Heavy assault have a lack of range and 40 to 50 km would be nice.
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ArmyOfMe
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.22 14:39:00 -
[5]
you do understand that ham's are ment to be shortrange high damage right?
the same way pulse, blasters and autocannons are shortrange
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Fswd
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Posted - 2007.09.22 14:52:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Fswd on 22/09/2007 14:52:33
Well the HAMs were needed to make missiles more in line with the other weapon systems: small, med, large and short and long range. Missiles were lacking a short range "medium gun" before HAM.
---
Free exotic dancers for mods that mod my sig
*Snip* Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) <-- freebie for you |
Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.22 15:31:00 -
[7]
Yeah but these missiles are totally useless
Have ever seen fleet battles using these kind of missiles ?
Dont forget that caldari ship are more used for PVE than PVE.
Therefore you ll understand that they are useless at all !
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Gartel Reiman
Project F3
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Posted - 2007.09.22 15:55:00 -
[8]
 Originally by: Aramendel
WTS: clue.
QFT. Seriously, have you noticed a pattern here? Everyone is explaining the role of HAMs and why they have a short range, but you keep dismissing this out of hand and saying "well, I think they're useless therefore they must be."
Consider what everyone else is telling you - if you want to claim they're useless, then provide some figures that suggest they could be better at their role while keeping with the balance of weapons overall. What you're doing now is just going to be fruitless.
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Chainsaw Plankton
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Posted - 2007.09.22 16:19:00 -
[9]
my blasters dont hit stuff at 60km FIX CCP NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.22 16:56:00 -
[10]
Do not compare missiles with others weapon because philosophy is not the same.
When you speak about missiles you must have in mind that capa is lower on caldari ships.
Heavy assaults should be half way cruise missiles
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Amuko
Amarr
Happy Little Roid Huggers
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Posted - 2007.09.22 17:01:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Stilgard
Here is my opinion regarding Heavy assault missiles :
In my opinion they are useless because they have a range problem. In fact you can hit maximum at 18km if you have maxed your skills
In my opionion they should be between heavy and cruise but they are not.
CCP , are you planning to make these missiles more usefull ?
PS : You have a good indicator to understand that they are useless : watch the market price of those missiles and especially of launchers !
Only 18km on a cruiser sized weapon system, ONLY?@!2. Man missile users are spoiled, I know they do less damage than, as example, blasters, but still, 18km is a lot for a medium sized weapon system, seriously.
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ArmyOfMe
hirr
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.09.22 17:47:00 -
[12]
Edited by: ArmyOfMe on 22/09/2007 17:47:04
Originally by: Stilgard
Do not compare missiles with others weapon because philosophy is not the same.
When you speak about missiles you must have in mind that capa is lower on caldari ships.
Heavy assaults should be half way cruise missiles
why shouldnt we compare missiles to guns?
You have no idea how much i would love to have medium blasters with 18km range that never miss
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Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.22 18:09:00 -
[13]
because missiles are more used for PVE and not PVP.
Secondly, fit a MWD and you ll not be able to shield tank.
Close range is more for Armor tankers not for shield tankers
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Harris
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.09.22 18:16:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Stilgard
When you speak about missiles you must have in mind that capa is lower on caldari ships.
Do you mean Capacitor?
I thought missiles didn't use capacitor. So what's your point?
Originally by: Stilgard
Heavy assaults should be half way cruise missiles
No they shouldn't, they should be a short range high damage version of the short range high damage turret variants.
Which is in fact what they are.
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Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.22 18:21:00 -
[15]
I mean capacitor for shield tanking.
If you want to use them correctly, you have to use a MWD and you ll jeopardize your shield tanking
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Harris
Warspite Developments
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Posted - 2007.09.22 18:27:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Stilgard
because missiles are more used for PVE and not PVP.
But not exclusivly so. Just not so good at long range battles. But it doesn't matter as these are short range missiles, like rockets.
Originally by: Stilgard
Secondly, fit a MWD and you ll not be able to shield tank.
So you have a choice - gank or tank.... like other short range platforms. A passive tank is similar to using a plated setup for armour tankers.
Originally by: Stilgard
Close range is more suited for Armor tankers not for shield tankers
But not eclusively so. Gank or tank, your choice.
HAMs were bought in to give missile users a short range high damage option. And now you're complaining that they are a short range high damage option. If you don't like to use them, use heavy missiles. What's the problem?
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Ciphero
The Cruciform
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Posted - 2007.09.22 19:13:00 -
[17]
Khanid ships don't shield tank.
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Violent games don't make people violent. Lag does. |
Balcura
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Posted - 2007.09.22 20:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Balcura on 22/09/2007 20:05:09
Only 1 issue as stated before in a different thread... HAM's fill a rocket role in the cruiser class weapon range.
The issue... Unlike rockets, balsters, pulses and autocannons HAM launchers take MORE grid and CPU. At this point people then mention Torps, but torps have 1 major difference, they are capable of hitting targets 80km away (cruises at 210km) or about a 60% range reduction, fire slower have slower speeds and longer flight time SO NOT THE SAME AS TORPS.
If HAM's had similar power requirement ratios to that of rockets vs std missiles you'd see them on the battle field more often as they would allow for better tanks. HAM's were poorly though out and implemented in a manner that they are relitively unused.
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xXx Vice
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.09.22 21:05:00 -
[19]
I think HAM are really good.
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Brodde Dim
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Posted - 2007.09.22 21:50:00 -
[20]
I agree HAMs could use a small boost, but certainly not when it comes to range.
Rockets have about 25% of standard missiles range, but do about 133% damage.
HAMs have 25% range and do allmost 125% damage compared to heavies.
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sableye
principle of motion
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.22 22:23:00 -
[21]
only thing I agree with I think and haven't looked at numbers is they should probably take less grid I believe in all other weapon systems shorter range always equels taking less grid.
Join The Fight With Promo Today |
Dahak2150
Chaos Monkeys
Monkey Religion
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Posted - 2007.09.23 01:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: sableye
only thing I agree with I think and haven't looked at numbers is they should probably take less grid I believe in all other weapon systems shorter range always equels taking less grid.
Torpedoes.
----------------
Originally by: "Cyberus"
cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
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Testosterone Bomb
Red Ballz
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Posted - 2007.09.23 03:35:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Testosterone Bomb on 23/09/2007 03:35:48
Dudes , you are being so baited :)
Stilgard - Bro , why you leave off that Band of Brothers tag , anyone since you have been playing since 2004 , I am sure you understand the role of a HAM ,
May those in IAC / AAA that fly against you Fly Safe
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Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.23 09:00:00 -
[24]
What's the tag is doing with the topic ?
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.23 11:05:00 -
[25]
Quote:
You have no idea how much i would love to have medium blasters with 18km range that never miss
I'd love to have missiles that always hit as well, but it's not gonna happen. 
And OP, yes, you are clueless. HAMs are great.
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Cal Morg
Gallente
Morpheus industries
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Posted - 2007.09.23 11:42:00 -
[26]
Comparison of the basic T1 items without skills:
Light Missiles
18.75 km
5 dps
Rockets
4.5 km
6.25 dps
-76% range
+25% damage
-50% PG
-40% CPU
Heavy Missiles
37.5 km
10 dps
Heavy Assault Missiles
9 km
12.5 dps
-76% range
+25% damage
+20% PG
-5% CPU
Cruise Misssiles
75 km
13.6 dps
Torpedos
37.5 km
18.75
-50% range
+37,5% damage
+40% PG
+33% CPU
So since the last change, HAM are more in line with rockets. The range and damage have the same changes to their long range counterpart. However the fitting requirements are quite different.
The main problem I see for HAMs: they need more PG and you need a MWD to get into range. PG that most Caldari ships don't have without removing every kind of tank (and even then, some need fitting mods).
Now let's look at Torpedos: fitting is also quite harder than Cruise Missiles, but they have double the range (50% to 24%) compared to the other 2 short range missiles. This way, they are useable without a MWD to get into range.
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Stilgard
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Posted - 2007.09.23 13:48:00 -
[27]
Agree with last answer. But caldari ships are not done for close range exept frigs and interceptors
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MyOwnSling
Gallente
RONA Corporation
FREGE Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.23 16:20:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Stilgard
Agree with last answer. But caldari ships are not done for close range exept frigs and interceptors
You tank with your midslots, not your lows (unless passively tanked), so you should be able to fit speed/agility mods in the lows to help with that, whereas gallente or amarr have to truley sacrifice some of their tank, passive or active to attain that.
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Stop whining.
Originally by: Puupuu
dude... your face...
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Kailiani
Fracked Up beyond All Recognition
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Posted - 2007.09.24 03:45:00 -
[29]
Try em on a cerberus
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45thtiger011
Gallente
The Perfect Storm
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Posted - 2007.09.24 06:45:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Stilgard
I mean capacitor for shield tanking.
If you want to use them correctly, you have to use a MWD and you ll jeopardize your shield tanking
Excuse me? with the possible exception of minmatar (who do a worse job of it) Caldari are the ONLY race who can tank indefinitely on zero cap!
beside which, i'd say players from all of the races worry about they're cap, caldari aren't any sort of exception!
you can't just claim that one race is more important than the others.
Basically, if you don't like the way the race your using flys, then train another race!
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Irma Bondis
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Posted - 2007.09.24 08:11:00 -
[31]
Caldari sucks give us a "I WIN BUTTON !!"
Ok, now for the more serious part of the post.
HAM's are pretty decent missiles they are as stated before a bit havy on the fitting requirements but other then that they are very useful.
The fact that you do not like this one weapon system does not mean that they are bad it just means that you personaly have not found a good use for it. Judging by the reactions so far no one else seems to have the same problems with this weapon system. That in it self would make me wonder... am I that good or are all others that bad?
Anyway, I guess the message is clear, you don't like HAM's and the rest of the people that bother replying do. So get over it and just some other weapon platform please.
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Jexxa
Laughing Leprechauns Corporation
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Posted - 2007.09.24 11:22:00 -
[32]
For those people who are whinging about HAM's and the lack of Caldari cap (with MWD) - DONT USE 'EM. I do not use HAM's on Caldari ships - the Caracal, Drake or even Cerb sucks when using them. Stick with normal heavies.
I DO, however, use them to fill missile slots on all my other close-range ships; the dps difference is noticable. And as for the Khanid ships since the patch......have you ever been at the wrong end of a HAM spewing Sacrilage? Not nice 
So, if you don't like 'em, don't use 'em. End.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.24 11:31:00 -
[33]
Quote:
The main problem I see for HAMs: they need more PG and you need a MWD to get into range. PG that most Caldari ships don't have without removing every kind of tank (and even then, some need fitting mods).
The PG requirements are tough, but a RCU I/II makes life easier. But if you're in a HAM Drake in gang, then you'll have your low slots filled with BCS, DC and a PDS/RCU, and then you won't really have the PG or lowslots to fit the passive tank that is apparently compulsory on Drakes... ...so people prefer HMs.
The range of HAMs really isn't a problem. MWD is extremely useful but not absolutely essential, bubblecamps etc aside. The range on Jav HAMs is great, and if you're in gang then you should have a warp-in target on to your tackler anyway.
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2007.09.24 11:34:00 -
[34]
its easy for what HAMs are...
...for the Sacrlige |
Mashie Saldana
Minmatar
Omerta Syndicate
Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.09.24 21:32:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Stilgard
because missiles are more used for PVE and not PVP.
Secondly, fit a MWD and you ll not be able to shield tank.
Close range is more for Armor tankers not for shield tankers
Ever looked at a PVP fitted AC Sleipnir, a shield tanking ship with only 5 mids?
Works just fine with MWD, cap booster, scram, shield booster and invulnerability field.
Stop whining already, we need T2 ammo to even get close to the range you get with T1 HAMs.
Light Assault Launchers & Defender FoF ideas |
Lestat deLincourd
Caldari
Jion Keanturi
TALIONIS ALLIANCE
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Posted - 2007.09.25 12:01:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Stilgard
I mean capacitor for shield tanking.
If you want to use them correctly, you have to use a MWD and you ll jeopardize your shield tanking
Caracal navy or cerberus for example you can even speed tank em. |
Artanixir
NYIT Gangstaz
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.25 12:43:00 -
[37]
most of the points that i'd say are added here,
but i think stilgard was missing one biggg point, Missiles are not exclusively for the use of caldari, or on caldari ships. other ships DO use missiles, and will have the power grid to support them, and yeah there are some short range ships (NOT just caldari) that make great use of the HAMS
and i read a thread a few days ago with a drake loaded up on HAMS, and yes, it had less tank than a golf cart, but it was spewing somewhere in the range of 700dps. yummy.
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Scorpyn
Caldari
Infinitus Odium
The Church.
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Posted - 2007.09.25 15:15:00 -
[38]
They are not useless, but they tend to not be the optimal choice on caldari ships. The reason for this is that a close range ship needs to be reasonably fast, agile and lightweight - which is something that caldari ships are not very famous for.
2007-07-19 20:26
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Dretzle Omega
Caldari
Gear Ratio
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Posted - 2007.09.25 15:22:00 -
[39]
The short of it is: The fit a certain role. If they don't have the range you want, don't use it. You can sacrifice the damage given for some extra range.
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4 8 15 16 23 42 108 |
Lawk
Hounds Of War
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.09.25 16:59:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Lawk on 25/09/2007 17:01:14
My HAM cerb hasnt seen much action yet but with my skills and a modest fitting(only 2 x BCU) I get 2.91 ROF and 30km range. Its about 450 DPS with faction ammo. Loaded with javelins, my DPS drops a little but i can reach out to 124km. HAMs suck?
Edit: my range is a bit better than 30km, but cant remember atm. Also, my missile support skills are lvl5.
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Koabi
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Posted - 2007.09.26 15:42:00 -
[41]
If HAM's had the range between heavy's and cruise missiles, then what would be the point of training to HM's? OP is missing the point of what these missiles are for. They arent used for fleet ops, but would you fit an AC/blaster boat for a fleet op? No, because you will most likely want to be able to hit at range.
Don't use HAMs for missions mate, no mission runner at his right mind would fit blasters/AC's.
If you go in a small roaming gang, try this in a drake fe.:
7x HAM
MWD, cap booster, web, 3x damps
damage mod/bcu or whatever you feel like. Its nice if you dont get called primay ^_^
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Bellac
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:36:00 -
[42]
well they are far from useless - just different.
In every weapon class there is 2 options at each size - pulse / beams for example.
With missiles its just a bit different as it didnt start off like this but developed into it. Anyhoo we basically end up with rockets and standard missiles for frigates, heavy missiles and heavy asault for cruisers and cruise and torps for BS.
In general one has long range and big damage but slow fire rate and higher fittings. The other has lower fitting faster fire rate with lower damage and shorter range. Heavy missiles and heavy assault fit into this neche really well. If you dont like them simply do not use them.
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Dubious Drewski
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Posted - 2007.09.26 20:56:00 -
[43]
Hams in comparison to heavies:
+25% dps
-76% range
+67% cost per second
-10% cpu
+20% grid
Is it worth it? I personally don't think so.
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Ashen Wraith
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Posted - 2007.09.27 08:19:00 -
[44]
khanid players are diggin the hams... just to let ya know
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Caldorous
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.09.27 10:55:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Koabi
Don't use HAMs for missions mate, no mission runner at his right mind would fit blasters/AC's.
I'm afraid i have to say that in the last 2 years i've done most of my missions in a blaster boat, which i find more fun and i'd like to use more if the serpentis ships started to fly like gallentes and stop using rails. (Gallente npc ships shouldnt shoot from more than 10km away)
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Shaemell Buttleson
Darwin With Attitude
oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.09.27 15:32:00 -
[46]
Nope they're not useless.
Move along!
*snip* Do not use your signature to troll or insult other EVE players even if the little dweebs deserve it! -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected]) |
Mudkest
MetaForge
Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.09.27 19:09:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Stilgard
Yeah but these missiles are totally useless
Have ever seen fleet battles using these kind of missiles ?
have you ever seen any missile used in fleet battle? O.O
-----
GIEV custom ship paint jobs!
I want my hello-kitty-kessie! |
ArrogantGod
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Posted - 2007.09.27 20:03:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Cpt Cosmic
Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 25/09/2007 05:42:15
its easy for what HAMs are...
...for the Sacrilege
First thing I thought of when HAMs were added was "AC Rupture"
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.27 20:23:00 -
[49]
People underestimate just how terrible HAM range is by far:
"Hey, 21km is enough for anyone."
- "Yeah, anyone not moving and tackled by you."
"But Poly-Sac moves fast rite?"
- "Sure does, have fun training both range skills to V so your Poly-Sac actually hits more than 50% of the time while simply orbitting."
"They do more DPS!"
- "On a standing target of cruiser or larger size within 21km with max skills they do. On any target within a Sacs lockrange, with the added bonus of explosion radius skills and boosters and with casual level 3 or 4 missile skills, HMs do more."
"They still do more DPS."
- "And less volley damage, yet another missile strength besides range and explosion radius skills that HAMs lose."
"What about Javelins?"
- "On a polysac? Good thinking."
"You can stick them on a Cerberus or a tanked Sac."
- "A Cerberus within 30km of anything is a terrible idea, and tanked Sacs are cute but not an overly useful ship - being the prime choice by exclusion of all others on one ship that in itself isn't useful doesn't make the missile type any good."
I'm not sure why I wrote that as dialog. It's not even good, or natural or ******* funny at all. Whatever, there you go - HAMs combine the disadvantages of missiles and blasters in one package of suck, and the hypothetical payoff isn't there because the range is still too short even with a implants and max skills. If they just had a base range of 10 or 11 km, they'd be good enough to have that one payoff for all the drawbacks - as it is, they don't.
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Subruz
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Posted - 2007.09.28 00:15:00 -
[50]
I don't see the problem with the range? Reloading takes 10 seconds and usually you're able to figure out what range you'll be fighting at somewhat quickly.
- However like people here are saying the grid need is rather heavy and grid is something at least not my drake can afford to spare, shield extenders are quite powerhungry too. Whoever suggested using RCU's should know that they're not an option for a passive tanker, thoose lowslots are damn precious.
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Slayton Ford
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.09.28 01:12:00 -
[51]
Drake does not suck while using them. In a gang situation, a Drake is normally primaried last because most FCs will see a ship with all tank and no gank. But 7x HAML II w/ 3BCUs can put out 550+ DPS. Add in a MWD, and tackle and you have a underestimated ship.
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This sig has been censored in fear of recieving the ban hammer... |
Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.28 10:42:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Subruz
Edited by: Subruz on 28/09/2007 02:01:55
Like people here are saying the grid need is rather heavy and grid is something at least not my drake can afford to spare, shield extenders are quite powerhungry too. Whoever suggested using RCU's should know that they're not an option for a passive tanker, thoose lowslots are damn precious.
IMO, those lowslots are also too valuable to be wasted on your tank. Go active on the Drake and fit BCS. 
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Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.28 13:25:00 -
[53]
You can fit two BCUs on a drake and still get a far better passive regen than any non XL-booster will give you.
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Subruz
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Posted - 2007.09.28 15:55:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
You can fit two BCUs on a drake and still get a far better passive regen than any non XL-booster will give you.
I agree that BCU's are useful and I think it comes down to the situation and playstyle alot. However using 2 BCU's instead of 2 relays will get you killed often, especially if caught solo (should be avoided anyway though, as it can at best end in a draw).
Using HAM's and together with a tackler the exta DPS is noticable but you're still pushing out sub-par DPS.
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Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.09.28 22:13:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Allestin Villimar on 28/09/2007 22:13:15
I'm not saying I'd fit them, just pointing it out. I only use 1 if I use any, I often can't due to CPU restraints. In which case I use a SPR.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.29 11:51:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
You can fit two BCUs on a drake and still get a far better passive regen than any non XL-booster will give you.
Please post your fit. I think you're wrong, but it has been a while since I fitted a passive Drake. Please state your assumptions (e.g., max skills?) and requirements (e.g., is MWD or scram necessary?). Also HM and HAM fits would be nice. 
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Adeleine
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Posted - 2007.09.30 13:01:00 -
[57]
I see it differently:
Long range ship uses long range missiles.
Long range ships: Kestler, Caracal, Drake, Raven
Long range missiles: Light, Heavy and Cruise Missiles.
Short range ship uses short range missiles.
Short range ships: Merlin, Moa, Thorax.
Short range khanid ships: Vengeance, Sacrilege and Damnation.
Short range missiles: Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles.
Theres another way of caldari fighting where you actually go close to enemy and possibly use electronic warfare that has short range.
I dont know much about amarr but i do know that they use lasers that have short range and use a lot of capasitor. As I understand their ships have bigger energy grid too. So the heavy assault missiles with short range and no capasitor use are prolly not that bad choise for them since they are going to close range anyways.
I dont know how the damage of heavy assault missiles compare to damage of lasers and blasters but if it is lower they need to fix the damage, not the range.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.30 15:11:00 -
[58]
Base HAM damage is 1.25 that of HM.
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Malcanis
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.30 18:17:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Mashie Saldana
Originally by: Stilgard
because missiles are more used for PVE and not PVP.
Secondly, fit a MWD and you ll not be able to shield tank.
Close range is more for Armor tankers not for shield tankers
Ever looked at a PVP fitted AC Sleipnir, a shield tanking ship with only 5 mids?
Works just fine with MWD, cap booster, scram, shield booster and invulnerability field.
Stop whining already, we need T2 ammo to even get close to the range you get with T1 HAMs.
How does the AC-fitted Sleipnir's DPS compare with eg: a HAM-fitted Nighthawk?
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Acoco Osiris
Gallente
Sublime.
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Posted - 2007.09.30 23:05:00 -
[60]
Two major purposes I see for HAMs
Javelins to take HAM-like damage out to up to 124km on Caracals/Cerbs (or any ship with a +10%/level missile range bonus)
Cruiser-sized nano ships can use them as heavy DPS when their guns can't track.
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One more soldier off to war...
And one Velator in my hangars. |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.10.01 00:41:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Please post your fit. I think you're wrong, but it has been a while since I fitted a passive Drake. Please state your assumptions (e.g., max skills?) and requirements (e.g., is MWD or scram necessary?). Also HM and HAM fits would be nice.
I can't do an HAM fit, it won't work on a drake because you'd need to use PDSs, but HMs are easy if you've got shield operation and management to 5 (Rank 1 and Rank 3, it doesn't take that long). I've also got Weapons Upgrades 5 and AWU to 4, shield upgrades to 5, and 3% hp/recharge rate implants:
7x T2 heavy missile launchers, 1x prototype cloak (or whatever you can fit)
3x LSE T2, 1x T2 Invuln, 2x T2 passive resists
2x BCU T2, 2x SPR T2
3x Core Defence Field Purger Rigs
This gets a higher shield recharge per second than anything but the best faction large booster + 2 amps, and that's going to run you over a bil and take up just as many mid slots. When I need to fit a scrambler I generally lose my EM hardener since so much pvp is kinetic/thermal damage, but occasionally I'll drop the thermal one instead. There's just enough CPU to fit a t2 24 km scrambler.
And I noticed earlier today there is now an officer variation of a LSE with 2906 shields and only 150 grid/40 cpu/20 sig radius. Good luck getting it but if you could it'd make the tank a little bit better while using less resources.
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.10.01 09:04:00 -
[62]
The problem with HAMs is Caldari ships have huge mass and are slow so MWDing into range is painfull, Once you are in range they are effective though.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.01 18:07:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
Originally by: Gypsio III
Please post your fit. I think you're wrong, but it has been a while since I fitted a passive Drake. Please state your assumptions (e.g., max skills?) and requirements (e.g., is MWD or scram necessary?). Also HM and HAM fits would be nice.
I can't do an HAM fit, it won't work on a drake because you'd need to use PDSs, but HMs are easy if you've got shield operation and management to 5 (Rank 1 and Rank 3, it doesn't take that long). I've also got Weapons Upgrades 5 and AWU to 4, shield upgrades to 5, and 3% hp/recharge rate implants:
7x T2 heavy missile launchers, 1x prototype cloak (or whatever you can fit)
3x LSE T2, 1x T2 Invuln, 2x T2 passive resists
2x BCU T2, 2x SPR T2
3x Core Defence Field Purger Rigs
This gets a higher shield recharge per second than anything but the best faction large booster + 2 amps, and that's going to run you over a bil and take up just as many mid slots. When I need to fit a scrambler I generally lose my EM hardener since so much pvp is kinetic/thermal damage, but occasionally I'll drop the thermal one instead. There's just enough CPU to fit a t2 24 km scrambler.
Interesting. Your fit, according to EFT and assuming no implants and uniform damage types, tanks 432 DPS with my skills, 489 DPS at max skills. If you replace the passive hardeners with T2 actives, you get 476 DPS and 529 DPS tanked, respectively.
Compare that with an active tank. You've use all your midslots for tank, so I will also. I'll also use HAMs for the 25% DPS bonus.
7x HAM II
Large C5-L Booster
Boost Amp II
EM hardener II
Thermal hardener II
Inv field II
Medium electro cap booster
2x BCS II
RCU
IFFA suitcase (CPU problems; I think the entire fit requires a 3% cpu implant)
2x kinetic shield resist rigs
1x EM shield resist rig
With my skills, that tanks 509 DPS. With max skills (AWU V) you can drop the RCU for a PDS II, tanking 543 DPS. This is superior to the 476 / 529 DPS tanked of the improved passive fit. Overall, the active Drake ganks and tanks better than the passive one.
Of course, it isn't that simple. The active Drake consumes cap whereas the passive tanks forever. But this is only relevant for PVE (and, yes, I would go passive in PVE). In pvp, a Drake isn't likely to get primaried, and if it is, then it probably won't survive long enough for cap to be an issue. The injector will offer defence against neuts.
But equally... your passive Drake is hideously expensive. The rigs cost ~45 mill alone! The total cost of passive fitting is somewhere around 80 mill - a lot for a 30 mill BC. My active HAM Drake costs around 30-35 mill to fit, including rigs.
Also, tactics. In my opinion, if your Drake is fitting HMs, then it shouldn't be anywhere near the action. A good 50 km off sounds about right. At that range, in small gang engagements, I think it's more useful to fit a rack of ewar - damps, tracking disruptors, even ECM for a laugh - instead of a tank, active or passive. A HAM Drake, however, needs a tank, and the PG requirements of HAMs points towards an active one.
Quote:
The problem with HAMs is Caldari ships have huge mass and are slow so MWDing into range is painfull, Once you are in range they are effective though.
Three points to this. 1. Jav HAM range is fine. 2. You warp to your tackler. 3. Most small-gang pvp ships will be MWDing towards you anyway. I haven't found T1/faction HAM range to be a problem.
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Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.10.01 20:02:00 -
[64]
I don't know how accurate EFT is on their formulas. But, my set up is not that expensive, last time I bought a drake the total price, ship, rigs, modules, and insurance included, was 80 mil. I'll see if I can get a regen and resist number on the active server, my test server character hasn't been updated in 4 1/2 months. But it should handle around 450 dps without any problems, but you wouldn't want either one of our set ups in a fleet battle, you'd want a huge buffer and high resists.
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Gypsio III
Darkness Inc.
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Posted - 2007.10.01 20:57:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
I don't know how accurate EFT is on their formulas. But, my set up is not that expensive, last time I bought a drake the total price, ship, rigs, modules, and insurance included, was 80 mil. I'll see if I can get a regen and resist number on the active server, my test server character hasn't been updated in 4 1/2 months. But it should handle around 450 dps without any problems, but you wouldn't want either one of our set ups in a fleet battle, you'd want a huge buffer and high resists.
EFT's missile damage formulae are fine, as far as I can tell. A bigger problem is the assumption of uniform incoming DPS - as you say, kinetic and thermal are favoured, especially with everyone using thermal drones. But I hate playing the guessing game when it comes to leaving a resist hole...
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Raife Zetter
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Posted - 2007.10.16 00:16:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Raife Zetter on 16/10/2007 00:16:29
nm
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Ziggy Smalls
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Posted - 2007.10.16 01:51:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Stilgard
I mean capacitor for shield tanking.
If you want to use them correctly, you have to use a MWD and you ll jeopardize your shield tanking
Cruisers and Battlecruisers (ships that will use HAMs) have low enough shield recharge rates to effectively passive tank, which is what you will be doing if you're working close range with a MWD fitted. Learn to fit ships correctly, and train the skills required to do this type of combat, and you won't have problems. If you still do, you probably bit off more than you could chew from the get-go. Quit spitting out theory based on solo situations. Gang ftw.
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