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We the undersigned request some Ferox lovin'

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Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:34:00 - [1] The Ferox is the most maligned battlecruiser in the galaxy. Prices on these ships were dropping even before the introduction of tier 2 battlecruisers, and have continued to do so with them now sitting lower than any other ship in it's class with an average price of around 19,500,000 isk. I have my own ideas as to what would give this ship some zest back, but I will refrain from espousing them here and request that you do too. So without further ado: Quote: Dear CCP, We the undersigned request that you do something with the Ferox before the bottom of the market for them falls out completely! Yours faithfully, The Eve-online community Hardpoint Rigs
Pharos Dei Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:39:00 - [2] well mate, i feel for your ferox... but lets be honest... all tier 1 bcs have become obsolete eversince the tier 2 ones were introduced... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Hango ([email protected])
Shi Mun Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:44:00 - [3] Its gunna be years of whining and screaming before they fix the moa and ferox class ships but until then... WE SHALL NOT WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED!!! WE SHALL NOT WE SHALL NOT BE MOVED!!! PS. moa class: +1 turret, ferox class: +2 turrets, --------------------------- HAHA! your jammers suck now! Oh wait whats happening to my scorpion...
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:44:00 - [4] Originally by: Pharos Dei well mate, i feel for your ferox... but lets be honest... all tier 1 bcs have become obsolete eversince the tier 2 ones were introduced... The brutix is still pretty good, but I agree that the ferox need 2 more guns, the cyclone a bit more DPS, and the prophecy as well... ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 12:59:00 - [5] Quote: but lets be honest... all tier 1 bcs have become obsolete eversince the tier 2 ones were introduced... Indeed, but prices on the Ferox were going into decline before the tier 2 battlecruisers came in. Prices on the Ferox are also a good million or two isk (sometimes more!) below the Prophecy, Brutix and Cyclone. In short, the Ferox was practically obsolete before the tier 2 battlecruisers came in! Looking more closely at these relationships we can see: Prophecy vs Harbinger: Prophecy out tanks the Harbinger, Harbinger out damages the Prophecy. Cyclone vs Hurricane: Cyclone out tanks the Hurricane, Hurricane out damages the Cyclone. Brutix vs Myrmidon: The Myrmidon is better in almost every way. However, "Drone Bandwidth" may change this. Only time will tell, but at least something is being done to attempt to make the Brutix more desirable. Ferox vs Drake: Ferox is out tanked by the Drake, Drake out damages the Ferox. Looking at this it's plain to see what went wrong. The Myrmidon and Drake are to my mind the "botched" tier two battlecruisers as they share bonuses with their tier one counterparts and merely swap their weapon system bonus, whereas the Minmatar and Amarr versions have clear roles. Whilst I have ideas as to what would fix this (Ferox and Brutix dropping the resistance & repair bonus respectively in favour of double damage/range bonuses) I would prefer that CCP simply hear that we feel our ships are neglected, and change something. What they change I would rather not influence, but merely let the state of the market demonstrate that something does indeed need to change. Hardpoint Rigs
Haffrage Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:01:00 - [6] A friend of mine did point out the other day that the Brutix is a much better lowsec gatecamper, because it uses mainly blasters instead of drones. But that's just 1 tactical niche. T2 Tier 2 Battlecruisers \| Eve GUI Tweaks
K'yrin	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:29:00 - [7] Agreed. Forox needs two more turrets, one will not cut it.
Songbird	Posted - 2007.09.22 13:36:00 - [8] 5 drones + 6 guns (probably explosive damage autocannons) > bigger than blasters.
Ravenal The Fated Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.22 16:50:00 - [9] the relation between tier1 and tier2 BC should be that one of them has higher tank while the other has higher gank. cyclone vs hurricane - tank/gank ferox vs drake - /tank and gank < ERROR prophecy vs harbinger - tank/tank and gank < they have about the same tank, slight error brutix vs myrmidon - gank/gank and tank < those buggers are tough... 7 turret gun damage bonus and 5 medium drones vs 6 turrets and 5 heavy drone damage bonus but I think the dps is close to equal (full t2 guns and high damage ammo) .
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:02:00 - [10] Originally by: Ravenal the relation between tier1 and tier2 BC should be that one of them has higher tank while the other has higher gank. cyclone vs hurricane - tank/gank ferox vs drake - /tank and gank < ERROR prophecy vs harbinger - tank/tank and gank < they have about the same tank, slight error brutix vs myrmidon - gank/gank and tank < those buggers are tough... 7 turret gun damage bonus and 5 medium drones vs 6 turrets and 5 heavy drone damage bonus but I think the dps is close to equal (full t2 guns and high damage ammo) I couldn't make heads or tail of the line with <ERROR in it, so I just made my own (that seems more accurate to me anyway). Cyclone/Hurricane - tank/gank Ferox/Drake - snipe/tank Prophecy/Harbinger - tank/gank Brutix/Myrmidon - gank/tank [and gank is getting nerfed most likely] That said, all the Tier 1 BC's need a boost - not just the Ferox. And to be honest, the best way to balance the tier 1 BC's is to abolish the tier system entirely. Liang Yarr?

Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:22:00 - [11] Quote: That said, all the Tier 1 BC's need a boost I'm not sure I can agree with this. The Prophecy can easily out tank the Harbinger due to it's resistance bonus, whilst the Harbinger can vastly out damage it due to it's own bonuses. The Cyclone can out tank the Hurricane (though admittedly not by much), but it is a shield tanker compared to an armour tanker and as such there is a modicum of balance here - albeit in the true minmatar style of being a pain to be able to exploit by any but the most broadly skilled of pilots. The Brutix is currently out tanked and out ganked by the Myrmidon, but with the introduction of drone bandwidth we should see an increase in the number of drones the Brutix can carry, which will increase it's desirability dramatically. It's when we get to the Drake and Ferox we find the imbalance lies. Whilst it's optimal bonus does indeed make it a great anti-support sniper just like the Eagle can be, it's split-setup and resistance bonus restrict it's viability considerably, rendering it the most undesirable of all the tier one battlecruisers. This is not my assertion: The market graph shows a fairly steady downward curve in both sales and retail value for the Ferox even before the introduction of the tier two battlecruisers, and markedly more so than any other tier one battlecruiser. Looking at current prices for tier one battlecruisers, all of which have approximately the same mineral value: Ferox: 19,500,000 Brutix: 23,500,000 Cyclone: 24,000,000 Prophecy: 22,500,000 We can see which is considered the least useful and hence most in need of some lovin'! Hardpoint Rigs
LMAAAOOOO	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Haffrage A friend of mine did point out the other day that the Brutix is a much better lowsec gatecamper, because it uses mainly blasters instead of drones. But that's just 1 tactical niche. Garde II's And to the op, the Demand for the ferox indeed is low, but it's not the only reason the prices is low ( I havn't looked into it ) But since the ships needs different amount of different minerals, maybe the ferox is mainly consistent of the chea minerals that are falling in price , compatred to the other bc's _______________________________________________
Solid Trust Minmatar Haven Front	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:36:00 - [13] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Prophecy vs Harbinger: Prophecy out tanks the Harbinger, Harbinger out damages the Prophecy. Cyclone vs Hurricane: Cyclone out tanks the Hurricane, Hurricane out damages the Cyclone. Brutix vs Myrmidon: The Myrmidon is better in almost every way. However, "Drone Bandwidth" may change this. Only time will tell, but at least something is being done to attempt to make the Brutix more desirable. Ferox vs Drake: Ferox is out tanked by the Drake, Drake out damages the Ferox. The Cyclone does not out tank the Hurricane. The Hurricane has 6 low slots. The Cyclone has a shield boosting bonus which is not as beneficial as armor tanking in PVP. I rarely see Cyclones used (the same way I rarely see the Ferox).
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:44:00 - [14] Quote: Demand for the ferox indeed is low, but it's not the only reason the prices is low ( I [haven't] looked into it ) But since the ships needs different amount of different minerals, maybe the ferox is mainly consistent of the [cheap] minerals that are falling in price , [compared] to the other bc's In my opinion the demand speaks for itself but indeed demand for the lower tier battlecruisers has fallen all over, albeit none to the extent the Ferox has. As for the mineral value, as I'm currently out in the back of beyond I can't reasonably give mineral prices - however, I can give the values should anyone be kind enough to quote the basic, unskilled and unresearched mineral cost for these ships. Ferox: 12198 Isogen, 576 Megacyte, 117907 Mexallon, 8735 Nocxium, 425788 Pyerite, 1693648 Tritanium, 2479 Zydrine Prophecy: 22023 Isogen, 862 Megacyte, 137558 Mexallon, 537914 Pyerite, 2508154 Tritanium, 2170 Zydrine Brutix: 943 Megacyte, 166674 Mexallon, 9834 Nocxium, 463308 Pyerite, 2094871 Tritanium, 1813 Zydrine Cyclone: 31875 Isogen, 752 Megacyte, 107628 Mexallon, 445501 Pyerite, 1785815 Tritanium, 1917 Zydrine If anyone happens to be in The Forge, mineral prices wouln't be a bad addition here, and I'll do the math. Hardpoint Rigs
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 18:46:00 - [15] Quote: The Cyclone does not out tank the Hurricane. The Hurricane has 6 low slots. The Cyclone has a shield boosting bonus which is not as beneficial as armor tanking in PVP. I rarely see Cyclones used (the same way I rarely see the Ferox). The phrase "May Aswell Train Another Race" has been around a long time. However, if you work on optimal figures for tanking, the Cyclone does indeed out-do the Hurricane. The fact that the hurricane is a vastly better PVP ship than the Cyclone goes without saying: it's the same relationship that all tier one and tier two battlecruisers share, and hence is fine the way it is. Hardpoint Rigs
Johnny Gurkha Ramraiders	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:08:00 - [16] The Ferox is a pretty mean ship, shame people can't fit it for ****... I love the Ferox everyone thinks they can kill it thus the bargain basement price... all is good \o/
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:14:00 - [17] Quote: The Ferox is a pretty mean ship, shame people can't fit it for ****... I love the Ferox everyone thinks they can kill it thus the bargain basement price... all is good \o/ Our killboards show both the good and bad side of the Ferox. It is indeed the dark horse of battlecruisers when it comes to PVP, but it pretty much requires rigs to be able to fit the mandatory PVP modules. It's useful as a support sniper even without rigs, but can be outdone by the Brutix and Cyclone in this role. Hardpoint Rigs
Vandalias	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:17:00 - [18] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Looking at current prices for tier one battlecruisers, all of which have approximately the same mineral value: Ferox: 19,500,000 Brutix: 23,500,000 Cyclone: 24,000,000 Prophecy: 22,500,000 We can see which is considered the least useful and hence most in need of some lovin'! So are we to then believe that the cyclone is the best tier 1 bc
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:28:00 - [19] Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 22/09/2007 19:33:47 Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 22/09/2007 19:28:52 Quote: So are we to then believe that the cyclone is the best tier 1 bc Heh, I doubt that's true. Comparing it to the Ferox though, it does come out on top. Same low/mid configuration, same number of turrets (and hence the same number of weapons that receive a bonus) but the Cyclone gets an extra high slot to play with, and more power grid too. Proportionally more than the Ferox gets CPU, too. This means that with respective close and long range setups, the Cyclone out damages and out tanks the Ferox. Don't believe me? Run the numbers yourself and you'll see... Hardpoint Rigs
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:31:00 - [20] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 22/09/2007 19:20:06 Quote: The Ferox is a pretty mean ship, shame people can't fit it for ***... I love the Ferox everyone thinks they can kill it thus the bargain basement price... all is good \o/ Our killboards show both the good and bad side of the Ferox. It is indeed the dark horse of battlecruisers when it comes to PVP, but it pretty much requires rigs to be able to fit the mandatory PVP modules. It's useful as a support sniper even without rigs, but can be outdone by the Brutix and Cyclone in this role. Edit: A quick search of battleclinic shows you are pretty much talking out a hole in your head. You fly a Drake, and according to Battleclinic have never flown a Ferox. Even then, your kill to death ratio isn't exactly awe inspiring... If you do a search on me, you'll find me flying Myrmidons, Vexors, and Helios', and Arazus - yet I've gotten over 100 kills in the last month flying a Drake. That said, you shouldn't assume that the Ferox has no advantages over the Drake. First and foremost, it is a gun ship. This makes it immediately preferable to bringing a Drake to any fleet engagement. I've seen the Ferox put to good use in fleet engagements, btw. Now, you don't think that all Tier 1 BC's need a boost - yet you claim that all Tier 1 BC's are overwhelmingly useless in PVP? Good game, and thanks for contradicting yourself. All tier 1 BC's need a boost - and the best thing that could happen for balancing the game would be the abolition of the tier system. This would let the Ferox not only have +2 turret slots, but would also give it more overall slots*. I only mention this since you seem to think that every ship is balanced save the Ferox. I also worry that a +2 turret slot Ferox would completely obsolete the Cyclone in close range combat. The Cyclone uses autos in falloff - and the Ferox can get hella range out of blasters. But, +1 or +2 turret Ferox would be ok I think ... something needs to be done. Liang Yarr?

Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:36:00 - [21] Quote: you claim that all Tier 1 BC's are overwhelmingly useless in PVP? Good game, and thanks for contradicting yourself. No, I claim only that the tier two battlecruisers are overwhelmingly better than the tier one equivalents. My apologies if my posts could be misconstrued as anything but this. Hardpoint Rigs
Sokratesz Paradox v2.0 Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:36:00 - [22] Edited by: Sokratesz on 22/09/2007 19:36:38 +2 turret hardpoints, cpu/grid for them and 20% better base speed, voila, blasterboat :D Originally by: Captian Internet Did some one say IBTL? because I think I just heard some one say IBTL
K'yrin	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:50:00 - [23] Originally by: Liang Nuren I also worry that a +2 turret slot Ferox would completely obsolete the Cyclone in close range combat. The Cyclone uses autos in falloff - and the Ferox can get hella range out of blasters. But, +1 or +2 turret Ferox would be ok I think ... something needs to be done. Liang Then argue for a Cyclone buff as well instead of a 'limited' buff to the Ferox. With one extra turret I doubt it would be on par with the Brutix which also comes into the equation, let alone the tier 2s. What the Cyclone needs IMO: 1 more mid - it can't passive tank like a Ferox and with only four tanking mods post MWD it doesn't tank well at all. More CPU - its a shame to have to sacrifice a low to get decent mids/highs as well as 2 gyros/DCU or 3 gyros.
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 19:55:00 - [24] Edited by: Camilo Cienfuegos on 22/09/2007 19:55:47 Quote: 1 more mid - it can't passive tank like a Ferox and with only four tanking mods post MWD it doesn't tank well at all. More CPU - its a shame to have to sacrifice a low to get decent mids/highs as well as 2 gyros/DCU or 3 gyros. It has the same number of mids as a Ferox, but it gets an extra high slot. What the Cyclone needs is more CPU to fit those extra gyros, whereas the Ferox needs a serious rethink. I'm also really not surprised that a ship receiving a shield boost amount bonus can't passive tank very well. Hardpoint Rigs
K'yrin	Posted - 2007.09.22 20:12:00 - [25] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos It has the same number of mids as a Ferox, but it gets an extra high slot. What the Cyclone needs is more CPU to fit those extra gyros, whereas the Ferox needs a serious rethink. I'm also really not surprised that a ship receiving a shield boost amount bonus can't passive tank very well. Not surprising no. But the two don't have the same worth in PvP. A 2 LSE 2 Invuln + resist bonus tank on the Ferox gives good survivability under focus fire but the LSB + hardeners tank of the Cyclone doesn't come close since it is extremely easy to overwhelm. For a ship that size, a boost ammount bonus is worth less than a resist bonus in the vast majority of situations.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.22 21:28:00 - [26] To the op: /signed ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Entreri Finwe Raptus Regaliter	Posted - 2007.09.22 21:36:00 - [27] I leeroyed my last Ferox, godriddance! I agree to a Ferox boost almost as much as to a Moa/Eagle boost... Originally by: jarack I de-synced in my bathroom once, now i have no where to wash my hands
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.22 21:36:00 - [28] Originally by: K'yrin Then argue for a Cyclone buff as well instead of a 'limited' buff to the Ferox. With one extra turret I doubt it would be on par with the Brutix which also comes into the equation, let alone the tier 2s. What the Cyclone needs IMO: 1 more mid - it can't passive tank like a Ferox and with only four tanking mods post MWD it doesn't tank well at all. More CPU - its a shame to have to sacrifice a low to get decent mids/highs as well as 2 gyros/DCU or 3 gyros. I did, but got told to GTFO of the thread.... while I'm stating that only buffing the Ferox would make the other Tier 1 BC's useless. Simply abolish the tiered ship system (even if its only in the BC line in this case). Liang Yarr?
Camilo Cienfuegos EP0CH Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.09.22 22:09:00 - [29] Quote: while I'm stating that only buffing the Ferox would make the other Tier 1 BC's useless. Simply abolish the tiered ship system (even if its only in the BC line in this case). I countered with the fact that the Caldari tier one battlecruiser is the further behind them all, and is in need of a buff independent of the others. Perhaps they all need a buff, but the reason I told you (although not in so many words) to GTFO was that this discussion regards ONLY the Ferox, and by proxy it's relation to the other BC's As for your assertion that removing the tiered system would help, this makes no sense whatsoever and I can't help but think you misunderstand what makes a ship tier one or two. A tier one ship is a ship that requires the relevant skill at level one, and a tier two requires it at level two. As such, removing the tiers wouldn't change a damn thing! Hardpoint Rigs
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.23 00:05:00 - [30] Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos A tier one ship is a ship that requires the relevant skill at level one, and a tier two requires it at level two. As such, removing the tiers wouldn't change a damn thing! Ignorance. Examine the slot layouts of the ships. Prophecy: 16 (25m^3 drone) (5% resist, 10% laser cap use bonus) Cyclone: 17 (40m^3 drone) (7.5% rep amt, 5% proj rof) Ferox: 16 (25m^3 drone) (5% resist, 10% optimal) Brutix: 16 (50m^3 drone) (7.5% rep amt, 5% dmg) Harbinger: 18 (50m^3 drone) (5% dmg, 10% laser cap use bonus) Hurricane: 18 (30m^3 drone) (5% proj rof, 5% proj dmg) Drake: 18 (25m^3 drone) (5% resist, 5% kin dmg) Myrmidon: 17 (125m^3 drone) (7.5% rep amt, 10% drone bonus) Tier 1 BC's are balanced around 16 slots, and Tier 2 BC's are balanced around 18 slots. As such, the BC's (as a whole) would be balanced around 17 or 18 slots. So yes, it would help "balance things". And an hour of extra training hardly justifies an extra 2 slots to make an entire "class" of ship obsolete. The same argument goes for cruisers, tbqfh. Liang Yarr?



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