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hacs worth it other then prerequisite to command ships ?

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Original Species	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:31:00 - [1] seriously..... Anything a hac can do a tier 2 BC can do better, other then speed... I just fought a nano ishtar in my harbinger, granted he could have gotten away at any time, but i had him to hull b4 1/2 my shield was gone. My harbinger's total cost is 70 million, i dont put a tank on it, just tracking pc's and heat sinks.My tank are 5 ecm drones which work better then any armor tank in a 1vs1......... So, why even buy a hac people.They cost 100 mill for the shell, another 50mill-100mill to fit....BC cost about 11 million factoring in insurance....
Corwain Gallente Kamite	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:37:00 - [2] lol "AFs not worth it, only good for a stepping stone to HACs" wait the time it takes to train a HAC, check forums again "HACs aren't worth it, only good as stepping stone to CS" OK, so in 3 months are you gonna say "CS aren't worth it, only good as stepping stone to T2 BS"? -- A Solo Arbitrator vid, Distortion by Corwain
Arii Smith Caldari StarHunt Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:40:00 - [3] T2 BS are better than most command ships... That is the nature of ship classes. Bigger ships have bigger weapons abd more DPS. But theoretically higher DPS on a BC does not make HACs useless.
Original Species	Posted - 2007.09.23 02:49:00 - [4] Originally by: Corwain lol "AFs not worth it, only good for a stepping stone to HACs" wait the time it takes to train a HAC, check forums again "HACs aren't worth it, only good as stepping stone to CS" OK, so in 3 months are you gonna say "CS aren't worth it, only good as stepping stone to T2 BS"? wha wha what ? I was just saying the performance of a hac over a BC doesnt justify the price...Im not saying HAC's suck...Id rather fly a Sac then a harbinger any day.But I cant deny the insane dps a harbinger puts out for a 35 million isk ship.... I like the bc because I dont feal I need to tank it, I can go outright dps and when I lose it, I lose less with FULL fittings then I would for the price of a hac SHELL....
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:23:00 - [5] Price-wise, 1-vs-1, they're probably not worth it no matter how you look at them. But each one of them has "something" to contribute in a gang, so I guess it kind of evens out, somewhat. However, as it stands, due to the non-recoverable costs, many people prefer to fly T1 ships. Others prefer to get the best money can buy, regardless of costs. Sure, HACs might be just a stepping stone to Field Command Ships, but those are definetely not a stepping stone for T2 BSs, not any more as, say, Interdictors are for HACs, or T2 BSs are for capitals... they're on completely different paths, that just happend to partially, ever so slightly overlap. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Dahak2150 Chaos Monkeys Monkey Religion	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:34:00 - [6] Compare the bonuses of the Zealot and the Harbinger. You'll notice there's an optimal there, which combined with the already decent optimal of pulses allows you to blast people from far outside web range. Furthermore, HACs offer resists that the BCs don't have, and mobility that the BCs don't have. Comparing an Ishtar verse a Myrmidon, the Myrm can only field one wave of heavies, then it's all over. With the upcoming scoop nerf this will become even more of an Achilles heel. There simply isn't a BC equivalent to the Sacrilege, so that is null and void from the beginning. Simply put, there are good reasons to fly HACs, hence the reason they are still so popular. ---------------- Originally by: "Cyberus" cause its has no sence anyway your brains is simply wont accept that anyway.
xHalcyonx Amarr Lucian Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.23 03:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Dahak2150 With the upcoming scoop nerf this will become even more of an Achilles heel. Link please. ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn
Antskyeeh STK Scientific M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.23 04:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Original Species I just fought a nano ishtar in my harbinger, granted he could have gotten away at any time, but i had him to hull b4 1/2 my shield was gone. Highlighted the relevant parts for you. That's called "survivability" and some pilots swear by it. Go figure.
Testosterone Bomb Red Ballz	Posted - 2007.09.23 04:36:00 - [9] Edited by: Testosterone Bomb on 23/09/2007 04:39:00 Actually HAC's are very much worth the ISK , just look at any of the main killboards and see what ships are getting the bulk of the kills. Ishtar Vagabond Eagle Sacrilege In almost all cases you will see these before any of the BC's. BTW this is not to say that a BC is not a deadly ship in the right hands because it is , but HAC's can be very deadly and worth the ISK. Plus as was pointed out above by Antskyeeh a good HAC pilot can decide what fights they want to be in.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Blood Corsair's The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.09.23 04:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Original Species seriously..... Anything a hac can do a tier 2 BC can do better, other then speed... I just fought a nano ishtar in my harbinger, granted he could have gotten away at any time, but i had him to hull b4 1/2 my shield was gone. My harbinger's total cost is 70 million, i dont put a tank on it, just tracking pc's and heat sinks.My tank are 5 ecm drones which work better then any armor tank in a 1vs1......... So, why even buy a hac people.They cost 100 mill for the shell, another 50mill-100mill to fit....BC cost about 11 million factoring in insurance.... Your harb vs. my Ishtar = dead harb. Bellum Eternus [Vid]Blood Corsairs - Day One

Karyuudo Tydraad Caldari Whiskey Pete's Drycleaning Services	Posted - 2007.09.23 06:38:00 - [11] Originally by: xHalcyonx Originally by: Dahak2150 With the upcoming scoop nerf this will become even more of an Achilles heel. Link please. I want to believe they finally nerfed that, but I'm gonna need to see some proof.
zayanka	Posted - 2007.09.23 07:01:00 - [12] try to use a bc in hostile 0.0 space. and then try to use vagabond or nano-ishtar. I bet your loss ratio hac/bc would be 1/10. That would mean fully fitted vaga 120 mils, fitted harbringe 70, we have 120 mills vs 700. Hacs can pick the fight, battlecruisers cant
MassonA Caldari coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.23 07:05:00 - [13] Edited by: MassonA on 23/09/2007 07:05:33 Edited by: MassonA on 23/09/2007 07:05:10 dev post
xHalcyonx Amarr Lucian Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.23 07:51:00 - [14] Originally by: MassonA Edited by: MassonA on 23/09/2007 07:07:09 dev post before - after attack 1 - attack 2 Laughs maniacally ------------------- ნỊs uʍop əpỊsdn
cytomatrix Caldari Skiddies of Doom	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:15:00 - [15] Originally by: MassonA Edited by: MassonA on 23/09/2007 07:07:09 dev post before - after attack 1 - attack 2 Time to sell my ishtar and train for Astarte. :( ______________________________________________________________
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:32:00 - [16] Originally by: cytomatrix Originally by: MassonA Edited by: MassonA on 23/09/2007 07:07:09 dev post before - after attack 1 - attack 2 Time to sell my ishtar and train for Astarte. :( Ill buy it for 30mill
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:34:00 - [17] HACs really shine in fast-moving PvP ops over the tier two battlecruisers simply because they're lighter, faster, and nimbler. Sure, the battlecruisers are a lot cheaper and compare favourably in terms of pure firepower & tankability, but they're not nearly as mobile once you start going a few dozen jumps here and there. Moving fast - both tactically and operationally - is frequently the difference between getting kills and getting killed, and in this day and age, that's why you pay the extra dozens of millions for HACs. They're roaming ships. If you're just gonna hunker down at a gate somewhere and don't plan on doing any serious travelling, then you very well might be better off with the battlecruiser. ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Riddick Valer	Posted - 2007.09.23 15:50:00 - [18] Drone's not replenishing shields won't be as much of a scoop nerf. Its being added alongside bandwidth, which should allow for increased dronebay (and backup drones), without changing the max number of drones/types that can be deployed.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.23 16:00:00 - [19] I love my deimos. sure it's not a 1vs1 ship, but in fast gangs it is king as the damage dealer. --- planetary interaction idea!
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.23 16:30:00 - [20] Vagabond, cerbie. Nuff said. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats

Ashen Wraith	Posted - 2007.09.23 16:51:00 - [21] Originally by: Cadiz HACs really shine in fast-moving PvP ops over the tier two battlecruisers simply because they're lighter, faster, and nimbler. Sure, the battlecruisers are a lot cheaper and compare favourably in terms of pure firepower & tankability, but they're not nearly as mobile once you start going a few dozen jumps here and there. Moving fast - both tactically and operationally - is frequently the difference between getting kills and getting killed, and in this day and age, that's why you pay the extra dozens of millions for HACs. They're roaming ships. If you're just gonna hunker down at a gate somewhere and don't plan on doing any serious travelling, then you very well might be better off with the battlecruiser. signed very much, a couple times a month we make it a rule NO bc...
Rude Bwoy	Posted - 2007.09.23 18:29:00 - [22] in pvp (with similarly competent pilots), the hac has the ability to pwn the tier II bc Who's the rudest of them all!
Karentaki Gallente federation navy taskforce	Posted - 2007.09.23 19:03:00 - [23] I totally agree with the op. With a hac you end up paying about twice to 3 times as much as a BC just for a small bonus to speed. I'd much rather get a T2 fitted domi rather than any hac, simply because a BS has much better tank and gank than a hac, for similar costs and only a small loss in speed. also... ever heard of a nano-BS? =======================
Bentula	Posted - 2007.09.23 20:00:00 - [24] Originally by: Karentaki I totally agree with the op. With a hac you end up paying about twice to 3 times as much as a BC just for a small bonus to speed. I'd much rather get a T2 fitted domi rather than any hac, simply because a BS has much better tank and gank than a hac, for similar costs and only a small loss in speed. also... ever heard of a nano-BS? Wow, just wow. I want some of the stuff your smoking, like now.
Derrios Dirty Deeds Corp. Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.09.23 22:20:00 - [25] ill fight you in my non-crap setup ishtar and rock you. nano is for pussies ----------------------------------------------- New T2 ships give me a raging hard Deimos.
Mortuus Minmatar Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.09.24 02:34:00 - [26] Really, cause my Hurri after fittin and rigs is about 110mil, my Vaga is 200mil, one can get away from just about anything, the other cannot. I'll keep my 6.4km/s without implants thanks. ex-Occassus Republica <3
goodby4u Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.24 04:29:00 - [27] Zealot might have a weaker amount of dps,but it can dictate range aswell as have more speed then the harb so it does have a niche __________________________________________ Yes it is great being amarr. I am minmatar,fly amarr,use gellente drones and am in caldari space.
Ather Ialeas Amarr Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.09.24 05:31:00 - [28] HACs are fun to fly, however for solo PvP they have been phased out mostly because just about any gang can take one down and there's a lot of bc/cs pilots nowadays. I personally think this is a shame. -
Radek Boktor	Posted - 2007.09.24 08:27:00 - [29] Hac's are great, in the last 3 months of solo piracy ive killed considerably more people with my ishtar than my myrm. For 3 simple reasons. 1 - spare drones means i out put dps for longer 2- harder tanked, fully skilled and tanked and rigged i have gone up ishtar vrs 2 or 3 bcs and kicked the cr*p out of um, if i need proof i have a fraps vid. 3 - agility, the ability to turn, run and manovuer faster.... Also hit warp faster with the ishtar ive had no probs taking on gangs solo, and im not nanoed im a tank fit. if you need proof again watch the vid i linked, i jumped Bs, groups all sorts. at the best i have 2 ships in suport. Hacs are briliant, even the under rated ones. They take some thinking to setup, but right now ive fallen in love with the cerb. It comes down to what you wana do.... a BC or Bs are better suited to gang work where there suported, for more solo work Hacs/Commands
Nian Banks Minmatar Berserkers of Aesir	Posted - 2007.09.24 09:29:00 - [30] With many saying that hacs are good for their speed and survivability, one point... I can't imagine a HAC only gang nocking back a speed fitted sleipnir.

Radek Boktor	Posted - 2007.09.24 10:55:00 - [31] alrite, 2 hacs vrs ur speed seliphner and well do it, infact it be a field day. It dsn;t take much to work out why either, not every Hac can but then, your only flying the speed seliphner cause u don;t want to engaded and lose. ANYWAY off track 2 the original question 1 - what can a hac do a command cn;t. quiet alot you say your flying the harb so i guess you have access to ammar ships. Zealot - with skils can push well past the 120km mark at range, which neither the abso or damnation can. Great for gate camping Sac - Hard tank and great solo pirater, has the mids unlike the abso which dsn;t leave it lacking. also its new bonuses make for a longer cap life 2 - Cost, yes your harb is less expensive, but my sac or ishtar will out tank you and as for ewar drones, neither will really affect me, with my dmg being drones or FoF's..... the zealot wouldn;t be upclose so your drones wouldn;t affect him. Id rather a Hac than a harb. Harb - higher dps, higher mass, longer lock times, larger sig radius and alot less tank Hac - resonable dps, lower mass, lower sig radius, larger tank, As a general rules, when tier 2s came out yes they raped hacs silly, because the hac tends to cap out. But thanks to a few rebalances and the nos nerf, tier 2s are fair game for well skilled Hac pilots
Arshes Nei Omega Fleet Enterprises Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2007.09.24 21:03:00 - [32] I like the range and versatility of hacs apart from their speed and tank combo. For example the pulserange of 31km optimal for zealot, this actually means you can deter ships like the sleip or vaga(and anyone wanting to get a point) from well outside their operational range, not to mention being way faster in locking and closing in on people. The ishtar has a great variety of drones and is imho the best small gang hac for utility alone. You saw those cool vids of people ganking small gangs in pimped faction BS? Well many of those would have gone differently if there had been a ishtar providing ECM drones, logistic drones and heavy damage drones at crucial points in the fights. Unlike myrmidon ishtar can do all of that in the same battle if needed. Eagle i see very often, its basicly the oh crap ship. You warp in to a station or gate to check on the hostiles at your 200km safe, and oh crap something is hitting you even while keeping transversial up. It locks faster than vulture so its also more suited to popping pods. Sacrilege, now thats one tough cookie. Sadly i lack the HAM skills to fly this ship, but i certainly would hate being at the receiving end of one. Especially in tandem with ishtar it could be devastating, pinning the enemy down while the ishtar uses ewar + remote support to help fuel the sacris tank, then depending on enemy either choose drones that hurt the most. The other hacs are still ok, but dont really offer much over the usual speed + survivability.
usmcdroid	Posted - 2007.09.25 20:13:00 - [33] If your harbinger took out his ish, then that ish pilot sucks, cause I know with my cerb, I could pwn you. I have twice the dps of a drake. hac's are awesome, fast, high dps, small sig radius, great bonuses etc.. my cerb cruises at around 650, with plenty of cap and lots-o-missiles for your harby.
LtCmdrCass Amarr Slacker Incorporated	Posted - 2007.09.25 23:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Radek Boktor It comes down to what you wana do.... a BC or Bs are better suited to gang work where there suported, for more solo work Hacs/Commands That's a perfect response and should just about answer the op's question.


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