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Dreadpilot Roberts SCARFACES	Posted - 2007.09.23 08:50:00 - [1] Would you trade the current bonus on nos/neut ammount on the pilgrim to the range ammount that curse has ? I know I would. What 'bout u ?
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.23 09:11:00 - [2] Given the almost assured upcoming sensor dampener nerf, no.
Corwain Gallente Kamite	Posted - 2007.09.23 09:28:00 - [3] I'd prefer to trade the current bonus for: 20% less cap used by Neutralizers/level -- A Solo Arbitrator vid, Distortion by Corwain
Cailais Amarr VITOC Fang Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.23 11:59:00 - [4] Corwain's solution is a good one. Alternatively I'd like to see an improved tank to both curse and pilgrim, possibly in the form of better resists and / or additional low slots and comensurate gd and cpu. It grates a bit that both curse and pilgrim FoTM setups rely on damps (and in the case of the curse nano set ups) rather than their td bonus. C. - sig designer - eve mail
Lili Lu Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships	Posted - 2007.09.23 13:56:00 - [5] Edited by: Lili Lu on 23/09/2007 14:00:17 YES !! If you look at the other force recons, they all have the ability to project their ew for range - Dampeners, web, ecm. Trully a force recon is meant to do "Recon" and have the ability to run when encountering "force". The Curse/other recons are meant more as pwnmobiles. The Arazu doesn't get a damp range bonus, but they already have enough range on those and the damp works as reverse range ew anyway. The problem with the pilgrim is that it has had to get close and hope to then take down the energy of the other ship so it couldn't tackle. Good luck with that on an inty or any other faster than you ship out of web range. However, with a neut/nos range bonus instead of the amount, the pilgrim would be in line with other force recons. You're scouting the opposing forces. Oops ran into more than you can handle, but now you have range ew. You neut the tackler(s), and now can run away to report findings. All other force recons can presently do this, use range based ew to escape superior force, but not the current pilgrim. It either has to fight it's way out of what it encounters or die (and now usually die since it can no longer cap out it's foe(s) while feeding its own tank). I think this is a great idea.
LoganFire Quam Singulari M. PIRE	Posted - 2007.09.23 14:22:00 - [6] CCP hates Amarr hence amarr have no good ships anymore, you ask why does ccp hate amarr. simple none of the GM's developers etc play with Amarr ships, so why give them a bonus.
Antikas Sourr Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.23 15:59:00 - [7] Edited by: Antikas Sourr on 23/09/2007 15:58:59 Originally by: LoganFire CCP hates Amarr hence amarr have no good ships anymore, you ask why does ccp hate amarr. simple none of the GM's developers etc play with Amarr ships, so why give them a bonus. I use a Armageddon for PvE, and I like it more than my Raven. So how Amarr "have no good ships anymore" is a bit false. You might want to try different setup's that suite you. Edit: I like that Idea of giving the Pilgrim a bit of a boost/change.
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.09.23 18:57:00 - [8] Not really. That would give a curse with one less med, one more med and pitiful drain amount (you want to trade the amount bonus for the range bonus if i understood). Curse would always be the better choice unless you really need the cloaking which you don't with the typical nano setups. Corwains idea sounds nice. Drain amount wouldnt be great anymore but at lvl5 you could use them for free (100% right?) which would enable you to use your own cap and the injector for your much needed tank, tackle & ewar. Actually i think this would be real evil, so evil people would start complaining again the day after. However it would get my vote obviously. Other then that i personally think the pilgrim needs a redesign. It has to be able to operate at +30km at least to full extent. In that case i dare to say there is no need for nos bonus of any kind as the curse would always already fill that role. So give it some other nice bonus something new that lets us pilgrim pilots feel the love. But no target painters plz. Maybe a new ewar against those annoying drones. But thats not gonna happen. And if they introduce a new ewar it really should go to the minnies in my opinion. Especially with the upcoming damp nerf i see huginn and rapier but also curse nerfed furthermore. If it should remain a webrange ship then it needs a 6th med slot and more pg and a bigger cap. Lots of it to be honest. And it still won't be hot again. Actually as a sidenote i do have the feeling CCP really doesnt love recons anymore. Admittedly they are great ships all of them(ok not pilgrim anymore). But it sure looks like every single recon (except minnies which were pre-nerfed with the TP) gets to take a huge nerf at somepoint. Ecm, then nos and now damps - td's next? And always they say its because non specialized use it too much but they don't compensate the recons in any way. I really don't like it. The only effect it has that we need to use recon-blobs where before you could use these ships partially to counter the blob. The new eve will become more guns and tank again imo - luckily i have gunnery skills too. ok /megarant off
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.24 02:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Dreadpilot Roberts Would you trade the current bonus on nos/neut ammount on the pilgrim to the range ammount that curse has ? I know I would. What 'bout u ? Oh yeah. In a heartbeat.
Corwain Gallente Kamite	Posted - 2007.09.24 03:34:00 - [10] Gonna comment a bit more indepth on this again: The Pilgrim is still an AMAZING ship...as long as it doesn't have to tank anything. With an injector it has just enough cap regen to run it's EWar. Problem is it's forced to operate in webrange where basically anything can lock it. I've had great success post nerf killing ravens with them, but only when I'm backed up by a Blackbird using Caldari racial jammers or a Celestis with a mix of damps and racial jammers. Basically the Pilgrim has the cap to either: 1. Run Neuts or 2. Run it's tank Which means the second it starts taking fire it stops being an asset to a gang or even a duo and becomes a liability. Should it be as effective solo as it was before? Probly not. Should it be able to kill some of the ships in its size and tech class in a 1 on 1 situation. Yes! Should it be able to kill turret fitted battleships that don't have backup and don't have big drones or lots of missiles? Yes! So you can either: a. increase its passive cap recharge to be able to run 2 neuts nonstop or b. change its bonus to a neut cap use bonus c. give it a tank that doesn't use cap (passive?) A nos range bonus could work but would change the fundamental way that the ship operates and encourages the FOTM damp/speed setups. I have never fitted a damp to my Pilgrim, and hope that CCP doesn't change it so I am not forced to do so. One thing is true, this ship needs tweaking to be even mediocre in non-niche roles. -- A Solo Arbitrator vid, Distortion by Corwain
Tasa Blue Happy Gryphon Salvage	Posted - 2007.09.24 04:55:00 - [11] How about: Minimum amount of cap needed to drain energy by use of NOS 15% per level. So by level 5, NOS would be like pre-nerf up to 75%, but beyond that, nuttin... if that makes sense. --- I'll be your huckleberry...
Dreadpilot Roberts SCARFACES	Posted - 2007.09.24 16:21:00 - [12] Edited by: Dreadpilot Roberts on 24/09/2007 16:22:55 Originally by: Corwain I'd prefer to trade the current bonus for: 20% less cap used by Neutralizers/level yeah lets make it again a solopwnmobile !!! Stupid thing to say. I say improve it, make it useful again, dont give it back the i-win button. I bet u wouldnt see a pilgrim with a covert ops cloak after that lol. And all ppl would buy talisman sets and just nerf everyones cap in a heartbeat without any cost and still putting up a mean tank on it given its good cap-recharge rate Dumb ideea ( even if I fly Amarr 80% of the time this seems waaaay to overpowered )
Almarez Setenta Corp	Posted - 2007.09.24 18:34:00 - [13] Corwin, I agree, I mentioned that when the stupid nerf came out. Also, I think the Curse should get a bigger cargo hold since it now needs to carry cap boosters. This would be inline with the Khannid changes. What playing Amarr feels like.
Terazuk Amarr Rogen's Heroes Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.09.24 18:37:00 - [14] /signed :) Originally by: "Johho Bulon" ...for god sake please inspire us instead of the seemingly constant downgrading of anything that works.
happymappy Amarr Toys R Us	Posted - 2007.09.24 22:43:00 - [15] Give it a range bonus and your making it into anouther damp nano overpowered i win ship. I do like the 20% less cap needed to run neuts but i think thats a bit much maybe 15%?
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.24 22:59:00 - [16] The Pilgrim is still the only recon that you can get a (relatively) excellent setup on WITH a recon probe launcher. That alone makes it worth using.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2007.09.24 23:01:00 - [17] you mean, force recon. Please share your probe launcher setup then. -- Greater Love hath no man than this; that a man lay down his life for his friends. R.E.C.O.N. is Recruiting
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.25 00:45:00 - [18] 2x Med Unstable Neut Recon Probe Launcher Covops Cloak AB II Domination Warp Scrambler Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor 2x Balmer Tracking Disruptor 150 PG MAR (Accom or faction) 1600mm RT plate 2x Beta Reactor Control: Capacitor Power Relay Amarr Navy Adaptive Nano Plating 2x CCC I The cap holds for 100 seconds with everything on. This should be more than enough time to neut your target to the point where you can turn off a neutralizer or the MAR and become cap stable. If you really want, you can switch the adaptive nano plating for another CPR and become completely cap stable.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2007.09.25 03:11:00 - [19] thank you sir, I will try this :) don't like the low resists, but for its purpose (scan probe) it's ideal. -- Greater Love hath no man than this; that a man lay down his life for his friends. R.E.C.O.N. is Recruiting
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.25 08:25:00 - [20] A rapier or arazu with one probe launcher still have quite enough dps to kill a cruiser or BC at a safe..so where is the point?
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.25 08:53:00 - [21] Originally by: Aramendel A rapier or arazu with one probe launcher still have quite enough dps to kill a cruiser or BC at a safe..so where is the point? .....I am NOT seeing how a rapier or arazu with only 2 guns fitted (probe launcher and covops cloak in other 2 highs) can put out enough DPS to break the tank on ANYTHING. That's not even 200 DPS on a rapier with totally maxed skills. An Arazu with blasters can hit 240, but that requires you to get into lock range. If you use rail guns you're also sub-200. The Pilgrim has neuts to stop the enemy from tanking, what do these ships have?
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.25 09:25:00 - [22] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/09/2007 09:31:10 You are using 2 lowslot modules on the pilgrim just to fuel the neuts. There is NO reason at all why you could not use 2 damagemods on the arazu/rapier likewise. They also have the ability to use the highest tier guns with such a setup which they do not have with 3 guns fitted (grid problems). Both ships deal 132 dps from their drones. 2 250mm rails with fed AM and 2 damagemods deal 114 dps, giving us a total 246 dps at 17.5k range. 2 720mm arties with rep fleet EMP and 2 damagemods deal 99 dps, giving us 231 dps at 15k (and have a big falloff so get only small damage reductions by getting to 20kish distances). That is enough to kill a cruiser, HAC or BC which is not in uber-tanked mode. A single mar2 can repair 35.55 armor/sec. In order to be able to tank 200 dps you would need average resistances of 82%. 77% if you use 2 rep amount rigs. And if they are in uber tanked mode (= dual mar + 3 resistance mods) a pilgrim will die horribly to them (while the rapier and arazu can just disengage) because they will have a cap injector. Oh, and did I mention that you can also fit a MWD on the rapier & arazu which gives them a far higher survival chance when encountering bubblecamps?
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.09.25 10:43:00 - [23] Originally by: Aramendel Edited by: Aramendel on 25/09/2007 09:31:10 You are using 2 lowslot modules on the pilgrim just to fuel the neuts. There is NO reason at all why you could not use 2 damagemods on the arazu/rapier likewise. They also have the ability to use the highest tier guns with such a setup which they do not have with 3 guns fitted (grid problems). Both ships deal 132 dps from their drones. 2 250mm rails with fed AM and 2 damagemods deal 114 dps, giving us a total 246 dps at 17.5k range. 2 720mm arties with rep fleet EMP and 2 damagemods deal 99 dps, giving us 231 dps at 15k (and have a big falloff so get only small damage reductions by getting to 20kish distances). That is enough to kill a cruiser, HAC or BC which is not in uber-tanked mode. A single mar2 can repair 35.55 armor/sec. In order to be able to tank 200 dps you would need average resistances of 82%. 77% if you use 2 rep amount rigs. And if they are in uber tanked mode (= dual mar + 3 resistance mods) a pilgrim will die horribly to them (while the rapier and arazu can just disengage) because they will have a cap injector. Oh, and did I mention that you can also fit a MWD on the rapier & arazu which gives them a far higher survival chance when encountering bubblecamps? - Rapier/Arazu have only 4 low slots. Pilgrim has 5. That's one less low slot to stick stuff in. - How does a Pilgrim die horribly to a cap injected ship? 2x TDs on a turret boat = you take 0 gun damage. It will take probably upwards of 10 minutes to kill them if they have a full hold of injectors, but you won't DIE. You'll be able to disengage unless you hit one of those odd people that rat in a full PvP setup, namely MWD, scram, web, injector. If they're missing any of those, you will get away. - Pilgrim can't kill a missile boat, but neither can Arazu/Rapier. They'll load FoFs and kill you. - Pilgrim can kill any turret BS. Arazu/Rapier can't kill any BS. - An Arazu with MWD, 2 damage mods, and 2 rail guns cannot fit a probe launcher. After fitting probe launcher, 2 damage mods, 2 250mm rails, MWD, WD II, and 3 damps you are out of CPU. You've got 2 empty lowslots and an empty mid, and no CPU to fit anything. Since you're using damps, you can't use the 14 CPU Domi scram to save CPU.
Grytok German Kings OPUS Alliance	Posted - 2007.09.25 11:11:00 - [24] If it's right, that with Recon-Ships @ LvL5 the Cloak takes no CPU, then you can fit a Probe-Launcher + 2x 250mm on an Arazu, but it's DPS is still crap... To the OP: The Tracking Disruptors have very good Range, so giving a range-bonus to the NOS/Neuts would be my preferred choice also. Staying out of web-range is necessary, if you wan't to solo-pvp. For a small gang otherwise, the Pilgrim is not that bad, as others can bring the DPS to kill the target fast enough, while you're nuking the Cap. .
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.25 11:45:00 - [25] Edited by: Aramendel on 25/09/2007 11:51:59 Originally by: Xequecal - Rapier/Arazu have only 4 low slots. Pilgrim has 5. That's one less low slot to stick stuff in. Pilgrim needs to tank. Arazu/rapier don't. And have 1 more med slot which they can use for a LSE2 as HP buffer instead of a plate. Quote: - How does a Pilgrim die horribly to a cap injected ship? 2x TDs on a turret boat = you take 0 gun damage. Not really. Against a BS, yes, but vs that you do not have enough neut power to drain it. A cruiser and BC can minimize its transversal and hit you with pretty significant damage. Esepcially if you are webbed, too. And one acco MAR and as only resistance mod an adaptive nano isn't really a hot tank. 61% average resistances and a lovely 32 hp/sec from the rep. You cannot even tank 5 hobgoblins. Tech 1 hobgoblins. Quote: It will take probably upwards of 10 minutes to kill them if they have a full hold of injectors, but you won't DIE. You'll be able to disengage unless you hit one of those odd people that rat in a full PvP setup, namely MWD, scram, web, injector. If they're missing any of those, you will get away. And if not you will die while the other recons will get away. The 230-250 dps of the rapier/arazu is just fine to kill a ratter with gaping resistance holes and a dps focussed setup. And as a sidenote are also more effective against most missile ships which are the most commonly used ratting ships. Quote: - Pilgrim can't kill a missile boat, but neither can Arazu/Rapier. They'll load FoFs and kill you. If they use cruises or HMLs. Torp launchers or HAms cannot fit FoF. And if they take FoFs with them which isn't always the case. Saying 50% of all ratting missile ships are carrying FoF would be already an exaggeration IMO. Quote: - Pilgrim can kill any turret BS. Arazu/Rapier can't kill any BS. Its drones will eat the pilgrim alive. See above. And it does not have enough nospower to kill their cap. Quote: - An Arazu with MWD, 2 damage mods, and 2 rail guns cannot fit a probe launcher. After fitting probe launcher, 2 damage mods, 2 250mm rails, MWD, WD II, and 3 damps you are out of CPU. You've got 2 empty lowslots and an empty mid, and no CPU to fit anything. Since you're using damps, you can't use the 14 CPU Domi scram to save CPU. Wrong. Arazu has an 100% scram range bonus, so a domi scram has a 22k range on it. Which is just fine with damps. Its also more beneficial since it can counter 1 WCS and uses less energy. And it can do exactly the same thing you are doing with the pilgrim - using named & faction mods. Arazu with 2 250mm t2, probe launcher, cloak, mwd, domi scram, 3 muon damps, 1 LSE2, 2 gal navy MFS, 1 OD2 and a beta CPR fits. Can use 2 poly rigs to improve speed and agility. For the rapier 2 720mm t2, probe launcher, cloak, mwd, t2 disruptor, fleeting web, 2 muon damps and 2 gyro2, 1 OD, 1 nano and 2 damp efficiency rigs works as well.
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2007.09.25 15:55:00 - [26] well he didn't say it was a tank setup. He'll probe down the bs, and call in support. -- Greater Love hath no man than this; that a man lay down his life for his friends. R.E.C.O.N. is Recruiting
Aramendel Amarr Coreli Corporation Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.25 15:58:00 - [27] He pretty much indicated that he was speaking of a solo setup. And as lead scout/probe/tackler for a group the arazu and rapier are a lot superior since they can lockdown a target a lot better. No real point in cap warfare there either.
Yuki Li Caldari Omerta Syndicate Exuro Mortis	Posted - 2007.09.25 16:46:00 - [28] Pilgrim is perfect as it is. Yes, you have a range limit. Yes, you have a cloak and can choose your engagements and make sure you're in range anyway. Alt flies a Pilgrim, wouldn't trade it for anything. If you fit it right you can get on a sustainable tank (with some work on the pilots part) along with 3 Neuts and and obviously your DPS comes from the drones. It's a very effective solo boat, and the way it suffers when out of range is balanced when compared to the effect it has on a target once you're IN range. Website Recruiting
Aaron Mirrorsaver R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2007.09.25 16:46:00 - [29] my bad, I got confused between him and someone else i was discussing this with, the other person gave me their tackler/probe setup. I wouldn't want a range bonus on the pilgrim because if you remove the power drain bonus from the neuts then it makes no sense, you'll have a cruiser nuking as much of his own cap and only nuking that same amount of cap on the target. the bonus nukes 324 with recon level 4 using a medium unstable neut. That's what makes the neut worthwhile on the pilgrim. So you nuke 180 cap on someone, and use 180 of your cap, isn't really doing anything, it'd be pure gang dependent with its drain bonus gone, because you would be helping nuke a primaries target faster, which would only be helpful with the gang nuking/hitting him too. they nerfed a module the nos, but to change this bonus would be a nerf to the ship to me. -- Greater Love hath no man than this; that a man lay down his life for his friends. R.E.C.O.N. is Recruiting
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.09.25 17:25:00 - [30] Now where we made the step towards pilgrim setups i'll share my current approach: 1 x nos, 2 x neut, cloak web, scram, 2 x td, med inject 1 x 1600mm RT, 1 x med rep 2, 1 x kin/therm hardener, 1 x dmg control 2 x pg rig I use mostly kinetic and explosive drones and 400 cap charges. Well, it can take all cruisers. In theory some battlecruisers (brutix, harbi for example) should be doable. I wouldn't try my luck with a hurricane or myr anymore. Drake was out of question even prenerf. Any decent bs will kill you no matter if its turrets or missiles the drones will do their job. You cannot kill the drones because its closerange, so don't tell me things like that. I loved the dualrep pilgrim because i could tank 5 x unbonused ogre 2 with it. Now i don't have the cap and need to go plate + med rep a fitting that in itself was already weak against bs prenerf (unless you used 2xdamp+burst). Also i have to sacrifice my rig slots to make said hp buffer at least halfway acceptable. This topic brings up so many unwanted and suppressed feelings. Fendahl, you... you...

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