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Somerled MacDhommal Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.26 13:44:00 - [121] Oi
ForumPosterAlt HERRO KITTY	Posted - 2007.09.26 14:11:00 - [122] This thread sucks. Because posting on the forums is serious business.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.26 14:16:00 - [123] Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Laboratus Damps do not have any effect if you do not have a lock on the one you need to damp and activate the module. Point taken. However as was already noted your scenario is an unrealistic one. Damps on unspeced ships are either used with 2 damps + damp rigs, or 3 damps. If there are less they are used with multiple ships working together. For example, if 3vs3 ships with one side having SBs and one RSDs the battle will become a 2vs3. Do tell, what ships have 3-4 (sb+damps) free slots after the generic 4 mid slot pvp fit (mwd+cb+web+scram) to fit an effective dampening setup? There are the scorpion, and thats it. There are no realistic scerarios, where your basic assumption applies to. Then there are the basic realities of fitting a ship. If you don't fit cap injector, you die. Mods that eat cap, stop. Hence, not very realistic. If you don't fit mwd, you have to use longer range weapons, that generally take more fittings. If you don't fit largest guns, you have extremely poor damage. This either means you sacrifice tank for fitting mods, or rig slots. Either way, you either don't have damp rigs, hence no effective damp, or poor tank, or poor damage. All in all, balanced. Considering, that the last 10-20 nerf damp threads started after oveur said that damps provide the most powerful single module effect, that is what we are talking about here balance wise... About the unrealistic numbers used above. The numbers I used were for a reasonably high celestis. A specialised ship. Unspecialised will do worse than in those numbers, not better... If you wish to argument, that my numbers are not good, then please do your own. Purposeful comparison numbers should be done ranging from minimal skills, to max skills with rigs. And for 1-3 modules. Personally I can't be bothered, since the limits of effectiveness have been determined. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Azur Tzesaeia	Posted - 2007.09.26 14:21:00 - [124] Edited by: Azur Tzesaeia on 26/09/2007 14:23:54 Quote: ...I really want to actually hear WHAT situations the damps become an I-Win button, wouldn't that be where you should, well start during a discussion of balance? Yeah. I agree. What situations do damps become a I win button?! Quote: Considering, that the last 10-20 nerf damp threads started after oveur said that damps provide the most powerful single module effect, that is what we are talking about here balance wise... Damps aren't the most effective single module in Eve. Warp scramblers, MWD and WEbbies are much better. Besides there aren't a lot of ships out there that can use damps really effective. A scorp is outrun by almost any other ship so you can easily enclose befor you get destroyed with a good enough tank fitted.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:03:00 - [125] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Aramendel Originally by: Laboratus Damps do not have any effect if you do not have a lock on the one you need to damp and activate the module. Point taken. However as was already noted your scenario is an unrealistic one. Damps on unspeced ships are either used with 2 damps + damp rigs, or 3 damps. If there are less they are used with multiple ships working together. For example, if 3vs3 ships with one side having SBs and one RSDs the battle will become a 2vs3. Do tell, what ships have 3-4 (sb+damps) free slots after the generic 4 mid slot pvp fit (mwd+cb+web+scram) to fit an effective dampening setup? There are the scorpion, and thats it. There are no realistic scerarios, where your basic assumption applies to. Then there are the basic realities of fitting a ship. If you don't fit cap injector, you die. Mods that eat cap, stop. Hence, not very realistic. If you don't fit mwd, you have to use longer range weapons, that generally take more fittings. If you don't fit largest guns, you have extremely poor damage. This either means you sacrifice tank for fitting mods, or rig slots. Either way, you either don't have damp rigs, hence no effective damp, or poor tank, or poor damage. All in all, balanced. Considering, that the last 10-20 nerf damp threads started after oveur said that damps provide the most powerful single module effect, that is what we are talking about here balance wise... About the unrealistic numbers used above. The numbers I used were for a reasonably high celestis. A specialised ship. Unspecialised will do worse than in those numbers, not better... If you wish to argument, that my numbers are not good, then please do your own. Purposeful comparison numbers should be done ranging from minimal skills, to max skills with rigs. And for 1-3 modules. Personally I can't be bothered, since the limits of effectiveness have been determined. Sry but you dont have any clue about what you are talking and just defending the module (most likely because you use it yourself intesively): You dont need 3 damps on one ship, you can use 1 damp on 3 ships, because sensor damps are very effective on unbonused ships. And a lot of ships have a spare medslot left in a gang.
Butter Dog The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:11:00 - [126] Well, I rather like the idea of 'Racial Damps'... ----------
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:33:00 - [127] Yawn...another nerf thread because something is too effective. Might just as well have ccp remove "ALL" ewar typ fitting. Then of course all those pesky damage mods will have to be looked at with the resulting opinion they are just too powerful so ccp migh as well eliminate those also. In the end we'll have the true union philosophy of compassionate mediocrity where there will only be one type of ship with only certain permitted mods allowed for pvp. At that point, pvp will truely become a game of skill. At that point we might as well start playing pac man.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:36:00 - [128] Originally by: Lrrp Yawn...another nerf thread because something is too effective. Might just as well have ccp remove "ALL" ewar typ fitting. Then of course all those pesky damage mods will have to be looked at with the resulting opinion they are just too powerful so ccp migh as well eliminate those also. In the end we'll have the true union philosophy of compassionate mediocrity where there will only be one type of ship with only certain permitted mods allowed for pvp. At that point, pvp will truely become a game of skill. At that point we might as well start playing pac man. You are politician right? Much talking, saying nothing. Or maybe you just dont see that 1 module that is to strong kills diversity... well politicians arent really known to have a clue right?
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:36:00 - [129] Could the moderators please close this thread. I am losing the will to live and i have a new job starting tomorrow. www.eve-players.com
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:39:00 - [130] Edited by: Laboratus on 26/09/2007 15:40:42 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Sry but you dont have any clue about what you are talking and just defending the module (most likely because you use it yourself intesively): You dont need 3 damps on one ship, you can use 1 damp on 3 ships, because sensor damps are very effective on unbonused ships. And a lot of ships have a spare medslot left in a gang. /me hands out clue cookie to benn Take it pal, you need it. You made me spit my coffee on the keyboard The level of micromanagment needed to direct that sort of effort, not to mention the fact that your performance is 1 damped ship per 3 ships with spare midslots is pathetic compared to for example EW caracals, arbitrators etc etc etc But please, if you actually have an intelligent argument to make, with a point perhaps some sort of reasoning maybe numbers and some sort of facts, instead of just laughable attempts of personal attacks, I'd love to discuss it with you. Maybe by evemail? Originally by: ViolenTUK Could the moderators please close this thread. I am losing the will to live and i have a new job starting tomorrow. This man speaks the truth. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:43:00 - [131] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 26/09/2007 15:40:42 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Sry but you dont have any clue about what you are talking and just defending the module (most likely because you use it yourself intesively): You dont need 3 damps on one ship, you can use 1 damp on 3 ships, because sensor damps are very effective on unbonused ships. And a lot of ships have a spare medslot left in a gang. /me hands out clue cookie to benn Take it pal, you need it. You made me spit my coffee on the keyboard The level of micromanagment needed to direct that sort of effort, not to mention the fact that your performance is 1 damped ship per 3 ships with spare midslots is pathetic compared to for example EW caracals, arbitrators etc etc etc But please, if you actually have an intelligent argument to make, with a point perhaps some sort of reasoning maybe numbers and some sort of facts, instead of just laughable attempts of personal attacks, I'd love to discuss it with you. Maybe by evemail? Originally by: ViolenTUK Could the moderators please close this thread. I am losing the will to live and i have a new job starting tomorrow. This man speaks the truth. Sry but directing 3 people to damp 1 ship isnt really that hard. Numbers are above in this thread, you can look for them.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:48:00 - [132] Edited by: Laboratus on 26/09/2007 15:50:53 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Sry but directing 3 people to damp 1 ship isnt really that hard. Numbers are above in this thread, you can look for them. No, but directing fire with 60ppl all while trying to sort out 20 EW targets, doing it in an orderly fashion, is... Or for that matter, any larger group... You could direct EW by placing it on primary, seconday, tertiary targets... But even that limits the applications... ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 15:52:00 - [133] Originally by: Laboratus Originally by: Benn Helmsman Sry but directing 3 people to damp 1 ship isnt really that hard. Numbers are above in this thread, you can look for them. No, but directing fire with 60ppl all while trying to sort out 20 EW targets, doing it in an orderly fashion, is... Or for that matter, any larger group... 60 ppl -> fleet sniper, normaly no room for RSD And even if you fit RSD on them, if you are in a good fleet, you can make it work if you make a plan of dampening ships by squads and enemies alphabetic orders.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:01:00 - [134] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Lrrp Yawn...another nerf thread because something is too effective. Might just as well have ccp remove "ALL" ewar typ fitting. Then of course all those pesky damage mods will have to be looked at with the resulting opinion they are just too powerful so ccp migh as well eliminate those also. In the end we'll have the true union philosophy of compassionate mediocrity where there will only be one type of ship with only certain permitted mods allowed for pvp. At that point, pvp will truely become a game of skill. At that point we might as well start playing pac man. You are politician right? Much talking, saying nothing. Or maybe you just dont see that 1 module that is to strong kills diversity... well politicians arent really known to have a clue right? Politician no. Remember back when nerfing ewar target jamming was the soup de jour? Back then there was no mention of sensor dampners being too powerful. All that nerfing a module does is opens up another module for the nerf whine thread. So after you have your way and sensor dampners are nerfed, then what? Guess I'll start a whine thread about sensor boosters being way too powerful. I mean, WTF, doubling a ships target range by putting on a few t2 boosters and have a ship be sensor dampner proof afterwards is unthinkable. So contrary to your supposition that that a single mod is too powerful kills diversity I suggest you learn how to fit your ship to counter dampners. A balanced game is one where for every mod, for every set up, there is a counter to it. Learn how to counter something instead of crying for it to be reduced. You sir, are the one killing diversity.
Gabriel Magnar	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:06:00 - [135] If they will indeed be changed so that they only affect either targeting range or lock time, sensor boosters should also be split as well.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:10:00 - [136] Originally by: Lrrp Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Lrrp Yawn...another nerf thread because something is too effective. Might just as well have ccp remove "ALL" ewar typ fitting. Then of course all those pesky damage mods will have to be looked at with the resulting opinion they are just too powerful so ccp migh as well eliminate those also. In the end we'll have the true union philosophy of compassionate mediocrity where there will only be one type of ship with only certain permitted mods allowed for pvp. At that point, pvp will truely become a game of skill. At that point we might as well start playing pac man. You are politician right? Much talking, saying nothing. Or maybe you just dont see that 1 module that is to strong kills diversity... well politicians arent really known to have a clue right? Politician no. Remember back when nerfing ewar target jamming was the soup de jour? Back then there was no mention of sensor dampners being too powerful. All that nerfing a module does is opens up another module for the nerf whine thread. So after you have your way and sensor dampners are nerfed, then what? Guess I'll start a whine thread about sensor boosters being way too powerful. I mean, WTF, doubling a ships target range by putting on a few t2 boosters and have a ship be sensor dampner proof afterwards is unthinkable. So contrary to your supposition that that a single mod is too powerful kills diversity I suggest you learn how to fit your ship to counter dampners. A balanced game is one where for every mod, for every set up, there is a counter to it. Learn how to counter something instead of crying for it to be reduced. You sir, are the one killing diversity. 1. Bring a module to a reasonable effectivness just makes the game better. Nos nerf is best proof around. 2. fitting a few sensor booster... would like to see how you do that, and it has been proven (in this thread btw) that sensor boost is no working counter to sensor damps. Especially because you can stack 3 damps from 3 different ships on 1 ship, but even if you make a remote sensor boost circle, you get only 2 booster on one ship. 3. maybe you should learn some more logic, if it becomes better to fit an agressive module over the defensive one, everybody will take it, since a good attack is the best defense (look at the NOS before patch). There is no real working counter to damps, if you dont believe that, run the numbers yourself, 3 unbonused damps make a BS take 40 secs to lock a carrier.
Lrrp Minmatar Gallente Mercantile Exchange Coalition Of Empires	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:18:00 - [137] Edited by: Lrrp on 26/09/2007 16:18:12 No counter to damps? Surely you jest. Damp a speed fitted vagabond and when he is orbiting you at 1k, what do you think your precious dampners are going to do? Keep you from being hit? Like I said, learn how to play the game.
Laboratus Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:20:00 - [138] Edited by: Laboratus on 26/09/2007 16:20:01 Originally by: Benn Helmsman 1. Bring a module to a reasonable effectivness just makes the game better. Nos nerf is best proof around. 2. ... 3. ... 1. RSD works to spec at this moment. No problems there. 2. EW is supposed to be effective, and the need to sacrifice 3 slots for effectivenss is pretty balanced tbh. And, the same stacking formula is used for all modules so your point is invalid. IMHO RSB should be boosted since it requires a lock to be effective. 3. That is the whole point. Modules effecting someone else require more skill and coordination to use, hence it should be a more valid tactic than static defences. It's called balance. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:25:00 - [139] Originally by: Lrrp Edited by: Lrrp on 26/09/2007 16:18:12 No counter to damps? Surely you jest. Damp a speed fitted vagabond and when he is orbiting you at 1k, what do you think your precious dampners are going to do? Keep you from being hit? Like I said, learn how to play the game. HAHAHA omg did you just said that you would go to 1km with a vagabond?
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:38:00 - [140] Originally by: Laboratus Edited by: Laboratus on 26/09/2007 16:20:01 Originally by: Benn Helmsman 1. Bring a module to a reasonable effectivness just makes the game better. Nos nerf is best proof around. 2. ... 3. ... 1. RSD works to spec at this moment. No problems there. 2. EW is supposed to be effective, and the need to sacrifice 3 slots for effectivenss is pretty balanced tbh. And, the same stacking formula is used for all modules so your point is invalid. IMHO RSB should be boosted since it requires a lock to be effective. 3. That is the whole point. Modules effecting someone else require more skill and coordination to use, hence it should be a more valid tactic than static defences. It's called balance. 1. no really know what you mean tbh 2. sacrificing 3 slots on 1 ship would be ok, damps are fine on specced ships (strong but ok), but 3 damps scattered on the whole gang of unspecced ships make it to strong. And just for you +60% bonus != -60% bonus, so with same stacking 1 RSD > 1 SB 3. you dont need much skill in useing RSD in solo or small gang warfare at all
Hellaciouss Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:52:00 - [141] Originally by: Xequecal - Nothing ruins MMO PvP faster than excessive crowd control, it doesn't matter what MMO it is. Ewar is crowd control. Nothing ruins MMO PvP faster then excessive DPS and super fast kills, it doesn't matter what MMO it is. DPS is crowd control, cause when the target is dead, he's not doing anything. I can play that game too.
Allestin Villimar	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:57:00 - [142] Originally by: Azur Tzesaeia I must say more to this...AND STOP GRIEFING LIKE HELL ON OTHERS! Ok Mr. Chinese Superiority, why don't you try an argument that makes sense and has some relevance on what I actually said? And unless you want me to get into elixirs of immortality containing copious amounts of mercury or ineffective walls used to stop invading Mongols, I wouldn't go on about ancient Chinese intelligence. No "race" has proven consistently smarter than another and they all have their shining examples of stupidity and intelligence. And just so you know, there are no nobles in America. There are no counters to RSDs. That effectively makes them an i win button. It's not a matter of tactics, because there is no counter to them. RSDs are more effective than sensor boosters so even if you have the same amount of boosters as they do damps, you're still at a serious disadvantage. You'd have to blow your entire set up on sensor boosters and signal amplifiers and have people remote boosting you to overcome 2 damps. Even then, your lock on times are still going to be much slower than they were before, you won't deal any significant damage due to a lack of mods, and you won't have much in the way of tanking. But let's assume you have a balanced set up for tanking, dealing dps, and all that. And you have 1 sensor booster. Cerberus warps in and nails you with 2 damps, a webber, and a scrambler and starts unloading with HMs. You turn on your sensor booster. Suddenly, you still can't lock on! He's hanging around outside your targetting range and you can't do jack to him, because even one sensor dampener will reduce your boosted range to 80% of your original range, and he's got two. Your drones sit there circling your ship because you can't tell them to attack. Better hope you have a friend. But if you assume you have a friend, then you have to assume he does, too, and there's no reason his friend won't fit sensor damps. So it becomes a game of who has more friends or who can target first. And larger ships will never win that fight. Plenty of things in EVE are chance based. Jamming, turret DPS. For something which serves basically the same purpose as target jammers, it ought to be chance based or at least vary depending on the signal strength of the ship instead of just a flat effect. It's extremely difficult to get the organization right to damp an entire fleet of 200 enemy ships. But I guarantee you any fleet commander worth his position has a squad of dampeners on call along with his EW ships, and any smaller battle you'll see damps everywhere. I see them more often than I see normal target jammers, anyway.
Kayna Eelai	Posted - 2007.09.26 16:57:00 - [143] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Lrrp Edited by: Lrrp on 26/09/2007 16:18:12 No counter to damps? Surely you jest. Damp a speed fitted vagabond and when he is orbiting you at 1k, what do you think your precious dampners are going to do? Keep you from being hit? Like I said, learn how to play the game. HAHAHA omg did you just said that you would go to 1km with a vagabond? that would be a nice waste of a vagabond indeed... however, how many damps would it actually need to make a vagabond at +-20km to lose lock?
Hellaciouss Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.26 17:01:00 - [144] Originally by: Allestin Villimar There are no counters to RSDs. Have your gang/fleet kill the ship that's damping. Counter found. The entire enemy fleet damping? Time to change your tactics. Fit for short range, get on top of them. Counter found. Try thinking outside the sniper blob mentality.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 18:00:00 - [145] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 26/09/2007 18:01:19 Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Lrrp Edited by: Lrrp on 26/09/2007 16:18:12 No counter to damps? Surely you jest. Damp a speed fitted vagabond and when he is orbiting you at 1k, what do you think your precious dampners are going to do? Keep you from being hit? Like I said, learn how to play the game. HAHAHA omg did you just said that you would go to 1km with a vagabond? that would be a nice waste of a vagabond indeed... however, how many damps would it actually need to make a vagabond at +-20km to lose lock? 2 damps from unbonused ship (without rigs/without eos +warfarelink in gang) will put a vaga to <12km locking range Originally by: Hellaciouss Originally by: Allestin Villimar There are no counters to RSDs. Have your gang/fleet kill the ship that's damping. Counter found. The entire enemy fleet damping? Time to change your tactics. Fit for short range, get on top of them. Counter found. Try thinking outside the sniper blob mentality. Closing in range doesnt work, because it takes ages to lock someone (40+ seconds for a BS), especially caldari ships are in a huge disadvantage here.
Hellaciouss Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.26 18:19:00 - [146] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Closing in range doesnt work, because it takes ages to lock someone (40+ seconds for a BS), especially caldari ships are in a huge disadvantage here. Then you're Cov Ops pilots/ceptors suck. If you can't get a ceptor behind their fleet in just a couple seconds so you can warp to him at a range that will drop you on top of their fleet then you're not trying hard enough and deserve to lose. If you're at sniper range which is 150km+ then you can warp to a wreck and be right on top of their fleet. Stop making excuses for lack of tactics and inexperience.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 18:21:00 - [147] Originally by: Hellaciouss Originally by: Benn Helmsman Closing in range doesnt work, because it takes ages to lock someone (40+ seconds for a BS), especially caldari ships are in a huge disadvantage here. Then you're Cov Ops pilots/ceptors suck. If you can't get a ceptor behind their fleet in just a couple seconds so you can warp to him at a range that will drop you on top of their fleet then you're not trying hard enough and deserve to lose. If you're at sniper range which is 150km+ then you can warp to a wreck and be right on top of their fleet. Stop making excuses for lack of tactics and inexperience. No sure what that change the fact, that it takes 40-60 seconds to lock an enemy.
MrTripps Gallente	Posted - 2007.09.26 18:30:00 - [148] Originally by: Allestin Villimar The Arazu isn't a tackler in the first place, so you don't need a scrambler or webber You might want to check the bonuses on the ship and revise that statement. Certainty of death...small chance of success...what are we waiting for? - Gimli
Allestin Villimar	Posted - 2007.09.26 18:38:00 - [149] Originally by: Hellaciouss The entire enemy fleet damping? Time to change your tactics. Fit for short range, get on top of them. Counter found. Good luck doing that while they blow you up from range.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Helmsman Engineering Company	Posted - 2007.09.26 18:41:00 - [150] Originally by: Allestin Villimar Originally by: Hellaciouss The entire enemy fleet damping? Time to change your tactics. Fit for short range, get on top of them. Counter found. Good luck doing that while they blow you up from range. Close range fleet combat can work, it is a lot harder but if you have your long range enemy in a close range combat, he is dead.

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