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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:11:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Liang Nuren
The Arbitrator is a damn fine ship - and I'd rate it the best T1 cruiser bar none. Sure, the Thorax and Ruppie are good, but they're not the best.
Man what?
Quote:
The Abbadon is a good ship but has capacitor problems - and the Geddon is simply unbelievable when piloted by someone with half a brain.
The Geddon and the Abaddon are good, but they are not "unbelievable" they do one thing well, but dont overshadow the rest of the ships.
Quote:
Apoc... meh, you seen a Typhoon lately? Rolling Eyes I like the phoon, but you can do cool things with the Apoc too if you really want to.
No, the Phoon is better than the Apoc, with the Abaddon now the Apoc is completly obsolete in PvP as well as PvP.
Quote:
The Harbinger is a damn fine ship as well - stop complaining about it as if it were merely ok.
Its the third best teir 2 BC for general use, but doesnt do any unique things like the drake can, and really a passive gank drake is quite underrated.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:13:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2007 18:15:20
Edited by: Liang Nuren on 26/09/2007 18:14:05
Originally by: Goumindong
... a bunch more whining and lies ...
Edit: I misread that part of the post... followup to come. 
Liang
Yarr? |
Lisento Slaven
Amarr
BAD ATTITUDES
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:17:00 -
[63]
The only ships I have a problem with are the Zealot and Apoc when it comes to Amarr.
Everything else is fun, entertaining, and fine at what they do. They're all competitive in their own way with the other races.
The optimal range bonus on lasers is beyond important in my opinion. Unless all of you fight at 500 meters anyways and don't take advantage of that optimal range in gangs.
---
Put in space whales!
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:21:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Goumindong
lots of lies and whining
Yeah, I'd take an Arbitrator against a Rupture or a Thorax. Pretty sure I'd win... but the Vexor/Arbitrator/Rupture/Thorax are definitely the best PVP Cruiers. The Stabber can be good, but its pretty situational IMHO.
I've seen the Geddon and Abbadon do "unbelievable" things - just because they aren't a Megathron doesn't mean that they aren't godlike to the rest of us mere mortals.
I dunno... I like the phoon because its fast - but its not like the Apoc is a lump of crap on the ground. I think everyone agrees that both of those ships need a boost (the Apoc more than the phoon simply so you Amarrians will STFU about how much it sucks.)
I don't know that you can really rate the Tier 2 BC's. Barring the Myrmidon, they're even better balanced than the Cruisers - and cruisers have sparked endless debates over which is better.
There's the Myrmidon - and then there's the rest. And the Myrmidon is getting nerfed I'm sure.
No, flying Amarr isn't as bad as this thread would make it out to be. It has problems, but they're all comparable in some way to Caldari.
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:27:00 -
[65]
I seems as the discussion is derailed several times by the fact that amarrian ships doesnt suck in a role that is never used as well as when compared another bad ship. That point is kinda moot tbh. The thing with lasers are that under no circumstance do you fair better with lasers than any other turrets on a ship that has one bonus for it (cap use vs dps output). That should make some alarm-bells go *ring* *ring*.
Ofc all amarr ships arent so bad that youd be better off in a trial acc with all other races. Allthough I am pretty sure that the most praised amarr frig in this thread, the punisher, is outclassed in most instances by the other races eith less sp.
This discussion, allthough at times based on theory-crafting, is still valid. What makes a ship good? Its the ability to outperform other ships in the correct situation. The problem is that amarr laser boats never do (in situation that are relevant). Combat takes place at certain distances, beeing better at a non relevant distance means that the advantage is irrelevant, unless you can either dictate distance or perform under a long enough time for that distance to matter.
Amarr ships basically can't, for the most part, dictate distance with an equal ship from another race.Amarr shipsdont have the best range (long range that is). This means that the dps amarr can inflict during the time it takes for another ship to close distance should make the rest of the fight even. Since dictating range or overwhelming dps define the winner of a fight that means amarr have no role.
Shorter range on long range weps, not enough dps to makes the extra range on close range weps matter enough (especially in the sub bs division). Quoted from unknown source "This is akin to having the fattest thin man and the thinnest fat man as our boxers".
Yeah megapulse II's do have a range advantage that actually matter, especially since bs's are generally slow wich means more time to get use of those extra dps. Also this is an advantage cause you might not have to move to engage the next target.
So either give amarr (wich shoudldnt be the highest dps race) more dps or, more in line with stuff, give short range weps both a cap and range boost. And give long range weps fitting and dps boost.
I might be incoherrent but thats just me, // Mika
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:30:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
... more whining ...
We should make Amarrian Battleships have 800 base speed because they can't fit speed mods because of their capacitor usage. Also, they should have 5 mids so that they have enough room for a second cap booster just for the guns.
And unstacking nerf heatsinks, wtf is up with the idea that you can't have 8 heatsinks in the lows?
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:32:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 18:32:50
Yeah cause that whats i said?
I just said that certain circumstance are more important and that amarr have a hard time filling those.
//Mika
*edited for spelling*
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:37:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
Yeah, I'd take an Arbitrator against a Rupture or a Thorax. Pretty sure I'd win... but the Vexor/Arbitrator/Rupture/Thorax are definitely the best PVP Cruiers. The Stabber can be good, but its pretty situational IMHO.
Stabbers arent situational. They are great heavy tacklers in fleets, small gangs, and medium sized gangs, great fast attack in small gangs. The arbitrator is good, but is neither a fast dps boat, or a great tackler, a high dps boat, or a strong ewar ship.
Quote:
I dunno... I like the phoon because its fast - but its not like the Apoc is a lump of crap on the ground. I think everyone agrees that both of those ships need a boost (the Apoc more than the phoon simply so you Amarrians will STFU about how much it sucks.)
No, the poc really is. What can it do well aside from being bait?
Quote:
I don't know that you can really rate the Tier 2 BC's. Barring the Myrmidon, they're even better balanced than the Cruisers - and cruisers have sparked endless debates over which is better.
Better balanced, but that just means that the gap between the harbinger and hurricane is small. That the harbinger is worse isnt in question. And yea, that makes it meerly O.K.
Quote:
No, flying Amarr isn't as bad as this thread would make it out to be. It has problems, but they're all comparable in some way to Caldari.
Caldari have way to few weakness to be comparable to amarr, ships of every sizes usefull in all different combat types for different roles. The Amarr have the Harbinger, Geddon and Abaddon usefull for one purpose if a few differnt combat types.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:38:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 18:32:50
Yeah cause that whats i said?
I just said that certain circumstance are more important and that amarr have a hard time filling those.
//Mika
*edited for spelling*
No, that's what this thread says. I've seen Zealots melt a Myrmidon + Caracal solo - and still the Zealot is a complete pile of poo?
And the Geddon and Abbadon are poo too, because they use capacitor to fire their guns... yet I've seen a geddon take on an Abso AND Astarte and come out on top.
And the Arbitrator is completely useless because ... umm ... the Rupture does better than it in select circumstances? And the maller is useless too because nobody's stupid and everyone's been playing for 20 years.
And the Harbinger isn't overpowered like the Myrmidon so it sucks too. And the Curse isn't OMGWTFBBQPWNAGEFROMTEHENDSOFTEHERRTTHSZ so it sucks.
No. Amarr doesn't suck any more than Caldari does. There's whining to be had, but this thread has taken it too far, and made too many complete BS arguments.
Liang
Yarr? |
Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:41:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Liang Nuren
No, that's what this thread says. I've seen Zealots melt a Myrmidon + Caracal solo - and still the Zealot is a complete pile of poo?
Ive seen a punisher solo a megathron. It has nothing to do with the quality of either ships, but entirely to do with the quality of the pilots.
Now stop the useless hyperbole.
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Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:47:00 -
[71]
I clearly stated that amarrian ships dont all, in all circumstance, suck so much they arent worth flying. I love the golden fleet, but i still feel its shotcommings. There is no use in getting and advantage in areas that dont affect the outcome of a battle.
And yes i like my arbitrator ( not laser based ) , my harbinger (allready named in thread several times as not useless, but will i perform better in a myrm after 2 weeks of cross training?) and yes armageddon is real nice as a cheap BS. Does that affect the general state of how laser are comparable to other weapon systems, as well as what the efficiency in a role of amarr in small scale gang pvp to fleet pvp?
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:48:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Goumindong
Originally by: Liang Nuren
No, that's what this thread says. I've seen Zealots melt a Myrmidon + Caracal solo - and still the Zealot is a complete pile of poo?
Ive seen a punisher solo a megathron. It has nothing to do with the quality of either ships, but entirely to do with the quality of the pilots.
Now stop the useless hyperbole.
No dude. You don't get it. You say that the ship is complete poo - yet you can use the bonuses out of the ship.
You just insist that its not good enough unless its 50000000000% overpowered compared to the next best ship - and even then it has this minor problem here that should go away so that its perfect in its obliteration.
No, this thread is so full of bullcrap Amarr whining that its beyond belief. You get oomph, and you whine. You get boosts, and you whine it isn't good enough. Nothing will ever be good enough until every single one of your ships is better than the Curse was before the Nos nerf.
And hell - most of you probably still think the Curse was fine before the nos nerf.
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:53:00 -
[73]
The issue isnt beeing 100000^10000 times better. Its that excelling in certain areas are better than excelling in others. Also that it will lead to the compensation of increasing the weak advantages. And what do you seriously mean by laser ships beein ZOMFG nber ships in any case in any role?
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:55:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
The issue isnt beeing 100000^10000 times better. Its that excelling in certain areas are better than excelling in others. Also that it will lead to the compensation of increasing the weak advantages. And what do you seriously mean by laser ships beein ZOMFG nber ships in any case in any role?
They're not zomfg uber at all. But nor are they complete poo. They have a place in combat - mid range, just like Caldari. And I'll give you the same advice I get in reference to my Caldari characters: Get a tackler.
If you have a problem with mid-range, whine about mid-range combat and you'll get the Caldari whiners on your side too.
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 18:57:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 18:58:01
You do have a point there. But this discussion isnt soly based on midrange combat. Its that the laserships of amarr arent in contention. Especially the amarr laser boats without a double laser boni. You see nothing wrong in the fact that all amarr ships with 1 boni to laser perform better with another wep sys?
*edited for spelling*
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:00:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 18:58:01
You do have a point there. But this discussion isnt soly based on midrange combat. Its that the laserships of amarr arent in contention. Especially the amarr laser boats without a double laser boni. You see nothing wrong in the fact that all amarr ships with 1 boni to laser perform better with another wep sys?
*edited for spelling*
You have to take range into consideration. Comparing a midrange weapons system with a close range weapons system isn't exactly useful.
The only bonus that I'm willing to admit is completely bunk is the laser cap consumption bonus. It should be cap amt or cap recharge imho.
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:01:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 19:03:08
Ofc range is in the discussion, but midrange have to be increased for it to be of any use. Agree?
Or the damage done during the interval of time that is the advantage.
*edited in the last sentence*
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:03:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
Ofc range is in the discussion, but midrange have to be increased for it to be of any use. Agree?
No, mid range combat would have to exist at all for it to be of any use. This is again to the problem of there not being any real midrange combat - which is not at all specific to Amarr.
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:10:00 -
[79]
True. But midrange is dead due to the uselessness of the dps inflicted during that time which can be solved by increasing the midrange dmg. And that isnt all of an amarrian prob. Its that the cap use per dps is skewed as well as the drop when downgrading. This has been acknowledged by the devs, I know. But still that the only overhaul that we saw on amarr was none laser related says a great deal on how strange the current issue is.
Wich is why you see "whine"!
Lasers arent a competible wep sys. Thats allmost a fact. And that we now have other wep sys that actually are good for us doesnt mean that our primary wep sys is all OK?
So your point is that all laser boats are ok and that they can compete in several roles that are significant with the other races?
//Mika
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:15:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
So your point is that all laser boats are ok and that they can compete in several roles that are significant with the other races?
My point is that laser boats are not that bad. They're not great by any stretch of the imagination, but they are not that bad. If used properly, they can actually excel and pwn what everyone says is impossible.
Everyone says that HAC's suck next to Tier 2 BC's ... yet Zealots pwn Myrmidons (the most reputedly overpowered of the tier 2's) left and right, seemingly without effort.
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:19:00 -
[81]
So in relations to an unknown enemy, youd rather use a zealot than a myrm?
Im thinking of skilling for the myrm soley for the more useful role than he zealot. (i might be wrong so i wont contest here)
The only useful roles ive founf dor my zealot is that of sniper, wich IS outperormed by other races hacs, and that of nano ship, wich also is outperformed. Why whould I ever choose amarr as the race to train if i wanna be a hac pilot?
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:21:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
So in relations to an unknown enemy, youd rather use a zealot than a myrm?
Im thinking of skilling for the myrm soley for the more useful role than he zealot. (i might be wrong so i wont contest here)
The only useful roles ive founf dor my zealot is that of sniper, wich IS outperormed by other races hacs, and that of nano ship, wich also is outperformed. Why whould I ever choose amarr as the race to train if i wanna be a hac pilot?
Hmmm... I fly the Myrmidon, and its vastly overrated tbh. Given the recent boost of the Deimos, I'd pick it over the Zealot tbh. But that again boils down to speed trumping range.
Liang
Yarr? |
Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:23:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 19:25:07
And that makes the zealot viable how?
Before the deimos buff the zealot was atleast one of the better speed hacs, now i find no use for it tbh. Id rather use the sac in allmost all instances, again what does this say about speed as well as wep sys for laser boats? Im not trying to be offensive I just dont get how you mean that laser boats are competitable?
*spelling and choice of words*
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Rialtor
Amarr
Yarrrateers
Mass Destruction.
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:24:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Rialtor on 26/09/2007 19:26:00
Originally by: Mika Meisk
True. But midrange is dead due to the uselessness of the dps inflicted during that time which can be solved by increasing the midrange dmg. And that isnt all of an amarrian prob. Its that the cap use per dps is skewed as well as the drop when downgrading. This has been acknowledged by the devs, I know. But still that the only overhaul that we saw on amarr was none laser related says a great deal on how strange the current issue is.
Wich is why you see "whine"!
Lasers arent a competible wep sys. Thats allmost a fact. And that we now have other wep sys that actually are good for us doesnt mean that our primary wep sys is all OK?
So your point is that all laser boats are ok and that they can compete in several roles that are significant with the other races?
//Mika
What Liang is saying is that Mid-range combat is non-existent because of mechanics not dmg. Scorch ammo on a pulse laser hits hard, even for close range. The issue is that you can't hold them there without tackling which happens at close range. So Encounters end up being close range as a group of pilots generally try to still together for support. So no combat happens outside of Scramble/Web Range.
Unless you're talking fleet of course.
Also missles had no real trouble in the Alliance tourney, so it's not like their dmg was bad. I don't see this as a dmg issue, merely a scrambling issue rendering mid combat nearly useless.
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Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:28:00 -
[85]
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 19:28:19
Yes midrange suck, but thats directly dependent on the ammount of dammage you can dish out in that range. Wich means that either slowing down approach or drastically increasing the dps output in that range is the only solution with current game mechanics.
*added spelling*
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Antikas Sourr
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:28:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Antikas Sourr on 26/09/2007 19:30:44
Originally by: Liang Nuren
I've traditionally been one of the people that would stand up and say that Amarr needs a buff. But you people are taking whining to the NeXT level.
Not every Amarr ship sucks - there are at least as many good Amarr ships as Caldari. Both races suffer from similar problems (You ever seen what a XLSB II does to your capacitor? And don't even bring up the "but its more efficient than armor reps!" bull**** because that's only true if you're fitting full out 100% tank).
In the end, Amarr is roughly equivalent to Caldari in PVP (and nobody gives a flying .... about PVE).
The Arbitrator is a damn fine ship - and I'd rate it the best T1 cruiser bar none. Sure, the Thorax and Ruppie are good, but they're not the best.
The Harbinger is a damn fine ship as well - stop complaining about it as if it were merely ok.
The Abbadon is a good ship but has capacitor problems - and the Geddon is simply unbelievable when piloted by someone with half a brain.
Apoc... meh, you seen a Typhoon lately? I like the phoon, but you can do cool things with the Apoc too if you really want to.
Seriously - I'm going to give you guys the exact same advice that you guys throw in my face when I whine about Caldari sucking in PVP: Don't compare yourselves to Gallente. Compare yourself to Caldari - and you'll find that Amarr isn't quite as bad as you're making them out to be.
They need a boost, but this is just metagamer whining at this point.
Liang
I agree, quite a bit. I find Amarr are what one makes them, not what they are. Hell, I think my Geddon is better in PvE than a (my) Raven. Sure, I might get flamed for being a baboon after saying that, but why should I care? I like Amarr, and seeing all the whining makes me laugh because I actually enjoy the race, regradless of DPS or tanking via paper stats.
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Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:31:00 -
[87]
Quote:
"I agree, quite a bit. I find Amarr are what one makes them, not what they are. Hell, I think my Geddon is better in PvE than a Raven. Sure, I might get flamed for being a baboon, but why should I care? I like Amarr, and seeing all the whining makes me laugh because I actually enjoy the race, regradless of DPS or tanking via paper stats."
So your saying just because you like the geddon (wich I do as well) that its not neccesary to look at the laser wep sys compared to the other races?
//Mika
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Rialtor
Amarr
Yarrrateers
Mass Destruction.
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:35:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 19:28:19
Yes midrange suck, but thats directly dependent on the ammount of dammage you can dish out in that range. Wich means that either slowing down approach or drastically increasing the dps output in that range is the only solution with current game mechanics.
*added spelling*
Well the only way that would work is if you could melt a ship before it could align for warp. And that's a big no-no that was the reason they made stacking penalities on Dmg Mods. Wouldn't make sense to potentially introduce more lame game breaking stuff just so the other side gets the shaft.
This needs a game mechanic solution not a number solution, perhaps high slot long range scrambling mods with a % chance. Or Have dmg more greatly affect ship speeds/turning. I dunno, it would all have to be tested and balanced so we have a balanced game that has alot of roles and engagement types. Personally I feel combat is a bit too tic-tac-toe-ish, should have been more like a ship sim like Starfleet command or something.
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Mika Meisk
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:38:00 -
[89]
i didnt mean that you can melt ships before they can warp, I meant that you can inflict enough dmg when they close the distance compared to total dps / tank / speed etc for the midrange to be worth it, i personally think that increasing all amarr short range optimals is one step in the right direction.
//Mika
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Antikas Sourr
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.09.26 19:40:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Mika Meisk
Quote:
"I agree, quite a bit. I find Amarr are what one makes them, not what they are. Hell, I think my Geddon is better in PvE than a Raven. Sure, I might get flamed for being a baboon, but why should I care? I like Amarr, and seeing all the whining makes me laugh because I actually enjoy the race, regradless of DPS or tanking via paper stats."
So your saying just because you like the geddon (wich I do as well) that its not neccesary to look at the laser wep sys compared to the other races?
//Mika
Thats right, got an issue with it? I can care less about how much more DPS an arty or blaster does, for one I don't necessarily like hybrids or projectiles. Geddon is not the only amarr ship I like, either. So don't jump to such an assumption.
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