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Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:44:00 - [91] Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 19:46:45 Well thats your choice to make. I find it peculiar that just cause you like one ship a wep sys is ok, especially when that ships combined weapons are kinda unique (both big drone bay lots of turrets) as well as a very useful wep boni ( rof over dmg) combined with beeing a tier 1 bs. So basically you have a unique amarr ship with optimal boni for amarr and you say that thats ok. According to amarr dogma (+ drones) geddon is the best ship availible to amarr and even that isnt all that good (yes IT can perform certain roles REALLY good), but does that make laser as a wep sys good? Consider all the 1 boni laser amarrian ships. //Mika
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:45:00 - [92] Originally by: Liang Nuren No dude. You don't get it. You say that the ship is complete poo - yet you can use the bonuses out of the ship. I can use of the bonuses on an omen too, it doesnt make the ship good. I make no such ridiculous assertion. If you cant argue why the ships are good, maybe you should take your *****ing somewhere else?
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:48:00 - [93] Edited by: Udyr Vulpayne on 26/09/2007 19:49:47 Originally by: Xequecal Udyr: You're trying to make a balance argument based on an encounter where one side is trying to run away? I mean, even if Amarr is excellent at ganking fleeing ships, who the hell cares? no, i'm merely trying to point out how utterly stupid it is to base your arguments around the assumption that range will degrease during most battles and that this means you have to gank the enemy before they get to close. Originally by: Xequecal 2. Active tanks suck ass in general. ESPECIALLY on Amarr ships. then use a passive tank or a mixed version. Originally by: Xequecal 3. Executioner, Slicer, and Omen are absolutely godawful ships. executioner: its a t1 throwaway tackler...doesnt do much else similar to the other races versions. slicer: is actually pretty decent but not much use in pvp as its too expensive compared to t2 frigs. omen: could certainly use some help with fitting requirements. Originally by: Xequecal 4. ......a plated Zealot? maybe try it out first. can get a pretty good tank and still do some damage. the ship could use a slight boost though. personally i would prefer it if it got some drones instead of another turret.
Antikas Sourr Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:51:00 - [94] Originally by: Mika Meisk Well thats your choice to make. I find it peculiar that just cause you like one ship a wep sys is ok, especially when that ships combined weapons are kinda unique (both big drone bay lots of turrets) as well as a very useful wep boni ( rof over dmg) combined with beeing a tier 1 bs. So basically you have a unique amarr ship with optimal boni for amarr and you say that thats ok. According to amarr dogma (+ drones) geddon is the best ship availible to amarr and even that isnt all that good (yes IT can perform certain roles REALLY good), but does that make laser as a wep sys good? Consider all the 1 boni laser amarrian ships. //Jv Just because I like one ship? How many ships do you know that I like? Hmmm? What's so special about a Armageddon? Because of it's drone bay? No... ah wait if I recall a Tyhpoon has an even large bay, so wait does that not make it an out-of-line Minmatar ship? Uh no... wait what about the Myrmidon? It can shield tank... holy smokes that's out of line... but nah... So while you're spitting words out like you know something I don't, I find you distasteful with the words. Just because I like one ship with a weapon system does not sum up what I think about Amarr ships... you have any idea how many Amarrian ships I fly? Let's see... nope, apart from one you know squat. So get your fact's straight.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:52:00 - [95] Originally by: Liang Nuren Everyone says that HAC's suck next to Tier 2 BC's ... yet Zealots pwn Myrmidons (the most reputedly overpowered of the tier 2's) left and right, seemingly without effort. Zealot cant break the tank of a myrm with scorch. Zealot cant stop a myrm from running without being nano'd. Myrmidon can kill the Zealot with med drones let alone heavies and blasters.
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 19:59:00 - [96] Quote: Just because I like one ship? How many ships do you know that I like? Hmmm? What's so special about a Armageddon? Because of it's drone bay? No... ah wait if I recall a Tyhpoon has an even large bay, so wait does that not make it an out-of-line Minmatar ship? Uh no... wait what about the Myrmidon? It can shield tank... holy smokes that's out of line... but nah... So while you're spitting words out like you know something I don't, I find you distasteful with the words. Just because I like one ship with a weapon system does not sum up what I think about Amarr ships... you have any idea how many Amarrian ships I fly? Let's see... nope, apart from one you know squat. So get your fact's straight. Im didnt mean to be presumtious, if thats how you percieved it sry. Your comment seemed to imply that because you liked the geddon all lasers are fine. Since that is kinda the base of the discussion i thought it obvious, apprahently I was wrong. So what makes laser good on the geddon? Do you know many other amarrian vessels with rof bonis? And yes as I stated the geddon is nice, does that mean that the wep sys is? No. You say you fly lots of other ships, good for you. An arbitrary comment that you can fly many many ships, allthough might speak of your level of comparison, doesnt help the casual observer. Also how is it distasteful that I spit words? I am simply trying to give my input on the issue wether amarrian wep sys can, given circumstance and game mechs, stand up there with the other turret based ones and missiles? //mika
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:00:00 - [97] Optimal range on lasers compensates for the high base EM resist. of course if you don't use your optimal range to your advantage then you won't notice how good it is. Use a tackler(s) and let the damage flyyyyyy (while you don't get shot by anything other than drones/missiles in return). --- Put in space whales!
Antikas Sourr Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:08:00 - [98] Originally by: Mika Meisk Quote: Just because I like one ship? How many ships do you know that I like? Hmmm? What's so special about a Armageddon? Because of it's drone bay? No... ah wait if I recall a Tyhpoon has an even large bay, so wait does that not make it an out-of-line Minmatar ship? Uh no... wait what about the Myrmidon? It can shield tank... holy smokes that's out of line... but nah... So while you're spitting words out like you know something I don't, I find you distasteful with the words. Just because I like one ship with a weapon system does not sum up what I think about Amarr ships... you have any idea how many Amarrian ships I fly? Let's see... nope, apart from one you know squat. So get your fact's straight. Im didnt mean to be presumtious, if thats how you percieved it sry. Your comment seemed to imply that because you liked the geddon all lasers are fine. Since that is kinda the base of the discussion i thought it obvious, apprahently I was wrong. So what makes laser good on the geddon? Do you know many other amarrian vessels with rof bonis? And yes as I stated the geddon is nice, does that mean that the wep sys is? No. You say you fly lots of other ships, good for you. An arbitrary comment that you can fly many many ships, allthough might speak of your level of comparison, doesnt help the casual observer. Also how is it distasteful that I spit words? I am simply trying to give my input on the issue wether amarrian wep sys can, given circumstance and game mechs, stand up there with the other turret based ones and missiles? //mika On the contrary, does the RoF bonus matter in my case? Hell no. I love my Harbinger to death, could care less about a Drake now. I don't fly "many" other ships my friend, I fly such ships I like best with the Amarr race with full T2 loadouts, blal blah blah... you get the picture. My point to this is playing this game with the playing style, and quite frankly I like lasers the most. I've tried projectiles, and I've tried blasters. Blasters are alright, nice damage, but not my type of play style I'm not saying the weapon system is "nice"... I'm saying I like the weapon system quite frankly, that's why I find your words somewhat distasteful. About the Geddon on comparison to the Rave... That was just one of many other comparison's I could have made. I did not say because of the Geddon lasers are fine, and if you read it again I say "I" (me) like lasers. Does that mean they are good for you? Not really, and I stated before Amarr is simply what one makes of them.
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:08:00 - [99] Again the discussion is derailed by a very specific circumstance that also affects all other wep sys. Why are laser so good in that situation? And no the EM dmg is a fully separate discussion it really has nothing to do with the current one, cause then amarr would be boosted to theory-craftinf levels that would make all the forums warriors cry. All races can use a tackler that doesnt give you an edge over competition. If both you and your opponent are webbed, your slower = hel'll gain on you -> youll be dead once that blater mega is in range. //mika
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:12:00 - [100] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Optimal range on lasers compensates for the high base EM resist. of course if you don't use your optimal range to your advantage then you won't notice how good it is. Use a tackler(s) and let the damage flyyyyyy (while you don't get shot by anything other than drones/missiles in return). No, it compensates for low tracking, not em resists.
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:13:00 - [101] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Optimal range on lasers compensates for the high base EM resist. of course if you don't use your optimal range to your advantage then you won't notice how good it is. Use a tackler(s) and let the damage flyyyyyy (while you don't get shot by anything other than drones/missiles in return). Eh? That makes little sense, it's not easy to break a guy with at least 75% Em resists from range. What if it's not 2v1 and it's 2v2, your tackler is just going to die, and then you're gonna die unless you leave. Saying lasers are ok, cause you can 2v1 people isn't a very good argument. And if you outnumber them why would you even want to stay at range? The higher optimal is obviously not a fair trade for high EM base resists and high cap use, I don't know why you'd even try to make this point.
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:15:00 - [102] Originally by: Antikas Sourr Originally by: Mika Meisk Quote: Just because I like one ship? How many ships do you know that I like? Hmmm? What's so special about a Armageddon? Because of it's drone bay? No... ah wait if I recall a Tyhpoon has an even large bay, so wait does that not make it an out-of-line Minmatar ship? Uh no... wait what about the Myrmidon? It can shield tank... holy smokes that's out of line... but nah... So while you're spitting words out like you know something I don't, I find you distasteful with the words. Just because I like one ship with a weapon system does not sum up what I think about Amarr ships... you have any idea how many Amarrian ships I fly? Let's see... nope, apart from one you know squat. So get your fact's straight. Well as allready stated, infinite times in this thread, GEDDON AND HARB ARENT THE ISSUE. Sry for the caps. Well im not holding it against you that you like amarr, I do to. Im just finding it strange that you would choose amarr as a superior pvp race since that is what this discussion is about. Compared to survivability, dps and tank I feel that its hard to get equivalent fits on amarrian vessels, Apprahently im very much wrong and all amarrians that dare to voice their oppinion are just stupid. I am not saying that you cant use amarrian ships. Im saying that the benefit of doing so both in terms of Sp and isk seldom makes it worth it. Yes geddon, harb and arbi are ok ships. Are they so excellent that all other shortcommings can be neglected? //Miks Im didnt mean to be presumtious, if thats how you percieved it sry. Your comment seemed to imply that because you liked the geddon all lasers are fine. Since that is kinda the base of the discussion i thought it obvious, apprahently I was wrong. So what makes laser good on the geddon? Do you know many other amarrian vessels with rof bonis? And yes as I stated the geddon is nice, does that mean that the wep sys is? No. You say you fly lots of other ships, good for you. An arbitrary comment that you can fly many many ships, allthough might speak of your level of comparison, doesnt help the casual observer. Also how is it distasteful that I spit words? I am simply trying to give my input on the issue wether amarrian wep sys can, given circumstance and game mechs, stand up there with the other turret based ones and missiles? //mika On the contrary, does the RoF bonus matter in my case? Hell no. I love my Harbinger to death, could care less about a Drake now. I don't fly "many" other ships my friend, I fly such ships I like best with the Amarr race with full T2 loadouts, blal blah blah... you get the picture. My point to this is playing this game with the playing style, and quite frankly I like lasers the most. I've tried projectiles, and I've tried blasters. Blasters are alright, nice damage, but not my type of play style I'm not saying the weapon system is "nice"... I'm saying I like the weapon system quite frankly, that's why I find your words somewhat distasteful. About the Geddon on comparison to the Rave... That was just one of many other comparison's I could have made. I did not say because of the Geddon lasers are fine, and if you read it again I say "I" (me) like lasers. Does that mean they are good for you? Not really, and I stated before Amarr is simply what one makes of them.
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:19:00 - [103] Originally by: Antikas Sourr On the contrary, does the RoF bonus matter in my case? Hell no. I love my Harbinger to death, could care less about a Drake now. I don't fly "many" other ships my friend, I fly such ships I like best with the Amarr race with full T2 loadouts, blah blah blah... you get the picture. My point to this is playing this game with the playing style, and quite frankly I like lasers the most. I've tried projectiles, and I've tried blasters. Blasters are alright, nice damage, but not my type of play style I'm not saying the weapon system is "nice"... I'm saying I like the weapon system quite frankly, that's why I find your words somewhat distasteful. About the Geddon on comparison to the Raven... That was just one of many other comparison's I could have made. I did not say because of the Geddon lasers are fine, and if you read it again I say "I" (me) like lasers. Does that mean they are good for you? Not really, and I stated before Amarr is simply what one makes of them. Well it's nice you like the play-style of lasers, I do too from a flavor perspective. But I'm also like to crunch numbers and see how efficient things are given all the bonuses and penalties, as do a lot of us on the forums. But your personal opinion on lasers doesn't have bearing on the discussion of efficiency of lasers on paper or in-game. You don't seem like one to crunch numbers and things like that which is fine not everyone finds it fun, but that was the intent of the thread. But when you take lasers and put them in a competitive environment with elite players you'd find them lacking.
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:22:00 - [104] Originally by: Mika Meisk Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 20:09:30 Quote: Optimal range on lasers compensates for the high base EM resist. of course if you don't use your optimal range to your advantage then you won't notice how good it is. Use a tackler(s) and let the damage flyyyyyy (while you don't get shot by anything other than drones/missiles in return). Again the discussion is derailed by a very specific circumstance that also affects all other wep sys. Why are laser so good in that situation? And no the EM dmg is a fully separate discussion it really has nothing to do with the current one, cause then amarr would be boosted to theory-craftinf levels that would make all the forums warriors cry. All races can use a tackler that doesnt give you an edge over competition. If both you and your opponent are webbed, your slower = hel'll gain on you -> youll be dead once that blater mega is in range. //mika The blaster mega doesn't get in range in my situation. What all of you people are failing to consider is that there are more things effecting the combat ability of all ships in the game other than just the silly damage types they do. If you nerf EM resists on ships then a lot more than just Amarr will be getting a boost. If you raise EM damage on lasers you'll just be boosting them in very bad ways. You can't just look at damage types without considering everything...and you can't just consider 3 things and ignore any tactics that are used in the game. And countering a tactic that is laid out with one you just think up doesn't do anything either because that's now how the game works (more often). I fly the ships and have been for a long time. Tactics play a big role in everything with the Amarr just as they do for other races (although the other races have more solo ships which obviously have simpler solo tactics). I stand by my opinion that the Amarr ships are satisfactory in regards to functionality, are entertaining to fly/use, and are competitive. The zealot and apocalypse on a ship by ship basis are the only ones that I have a problem with in EVE on the Amarrian side. --- Put in space whales!
Antikas Sourr Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:22:00 - [105] Edited by: Antikas Sourr on 26/09/2007 20:24:10 Originally by: Rialtor Originally by: Antikas Sourr On the contrary, does the RoF bonus matter in my case? Hell no. I love my Harbinger to death, could care less about a Drake now. I don't fly "many" other ships my friend, I fly such ships I like best with the Amarr race with full T2 loadouts, blah blah blah... you get the picture. My point to this is playing this game with the playing style, and quite frankly I like lasers the most. I've tried projectiles, and I've tried blasters. Blasters are alright, nice damage, but not my type of play style I'm not saying the weapon system is "nice"... I'm saying I like the weapon system quite frankly, that's why I find your words somewhat distasteful. About the Geddon on comparison to the Raven... That was just one of many other comparison's I could have made. I did not say because of the Geddon lasers are fine, and if you read it again I say "I" (me) like lasers. Does that mean they are good for you? Not really, and I stated before Amarr is simply what one makes of them. Well it's nice you like the play-style of lasers, I do too from a flavor perspective. But I'm also like to crunch numbers and see how efficient things are given all the bonuses and penalties, as do a lot of us on the forums. But your personal opinion on lasers doesn't have bearing on the discussion of efficiency of lasers on paper or in-game. You don't seem like one to crunch numbers and things like that which is fine not everyone finds it fun, but that was the intent of the thread. But when you take lasers and put them in a competitive environment with elite players you'd find them lacking. Very much so, I do not prefer to necessarily punch in numbers. I just like to go with I feel is best, as far as play style etc. It may not seem my opinion is constructive, but I'm just trying to reveal that some of us players just like the lasers because of such, and some disregard what they seem to be on paper (like myself). Every weapon system is different, from my standpoint, so I feel that one has to take each weapon system with a different approach, or a play-style. Yes, lasers do use a lot of cap... and yes tachyon's are hard to fit, but because of those it doesnt mean they suck...
Eleanorr	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:26:00 - [106] Originally by: Liang Nuren Everyone says that HAC's suck next to Tier 2 BC's ... yet Zealots pwn Myrmidons (the most reputedly overpowered of the tier 2's) left and right, seemingly without effort. Hahahahahaha You should try playing this game before posting about it.
Liang Nuren The Refugees	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:27:00 - [107] Originally by: Eleanorr Originally by: Liang Nuren Everyone says that HAC's suck next to Tier 2 BC's ... yet Zealots pwn Myrmidons (the most reputedly overpowered of the tier 2's) left and right, seemingly without effort. Hahahahahaha You should try playing this game before posting about it. I play the game all the time, actually. Do you? I've never seen you in space... Liang Yarr?
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:29:00 - [108] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Eleanorr Originally by: Liang Nuren Everyone says that HAC's suck next to Tier 2 BC's ... yet Zealots pwn Myrmidons (the most reputedly overpowered of the tier 2's) left and right, seemingly without effort. Hahahahahaha You should try playing this game before posting about it. I play the game all the time, actually. Do you? I've never seen you in space... Liang Ive never seen you in space either, clearly you do not play.
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:29:00 - [109] Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 20:33:03 Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 20:31:41 Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 20:30:44 Quote: I fly the ships and have been for a long time. Tactics play a big role in everything with the Amarr just as they do for other races (although the other races have more solo ships which obviously have simpler solo tactics). I stand by my opinion that the Amarr ships are satisfactory in regards to functionality, are entertaining to fly/use, and are competitive. The zealot and apocalypse on a ship by ship basis are the only ones that I have a problem with in EVE on the Amarrian side. You state that you have alot of experience flying amarr and that you make it work in a gang. Thats sweet. You say that amarr are tactically challenged in the fact that if optimum req are met they excell but those reqs are hard to accomplish. That leads to the fact that amarr are subpar according to your rethorics. I wont challenge you on the fact that in ideal circumstance amarr excell. That isnt the discussion, ONCE AGAIN, it is that the opportunity to aquire that circumstance is to hard with regards to the reward. That is the issue with lasers. If they only work in gangs where you have the upper hand with regards to ew, tackling ec. they should damn well outperform by miles, wich they dont. Thast is the issue. No one is debating that with superiour tactcics, sp and knowledge you can be sucessful as amarrian. Its that given an equal playing field amarr looses. If amarr and caldari are gang not solo, fine. Then all amarr and caldari gangs should outperform all equivalent gal and minnie gangs? Thats is not a favourable game outcome. i dont believe that anyone thinks so. So howcome the argument that in a gang under a limited set of circmstance amarr excell is still beeing thrown around? //Mika edited several times for speeling cause imma dumb
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:32:00 - [110] to give a perspective from someone who actually uses or has used all amarr combatships below capitals: frigs: crucifier: can be used as a nice tackler or td-frig with some success. executioner: decent enough for cheap tackling/fighterbombing inquisitor: decent enough punisher: awesome tank with autocannons. sucks badly with lasers like all tankers. -> needs redesign 6th amarrian t1 frig: WORST SHIP IN THE GAME. slicer: decent enough but too expensive compared to t2. crusader: pretty good maled: looks nice but havent tested the new one enough yet purifier: pretty good now. retribution: pure awesome vengeance: looks nice but havent tested the new one enough yet destroyers: coercer: pure awesome if used right heretic: a bit fragile for an amarr ship but otherwise ok crusiers: auguror: sucks badly. the armor hp bonus is wasted due to tier1 cruiser fittings. omen: needs help with grid/cpu/base armor arbi: most awesome amarr t1 cruiser maller: see punisher, good tank if you dont use lasers. needs redesign navy aug: bigger version of the maller with 15m3 added dronespace...still sucky compared to other faction cruisers zealot: nice but could use a small to medium sized dronebay sacri: really nice now guardian: really nice bc: prophecy: see punisher and maller -> no point in using this at all after the harbinger came out...well maybe if you relaly like projectiles harbinger: pretty awesome. only bad thing here is the missing 8th gun and the resulting lopsided placement of the 7th gun absolution: awesomely amarrian damnation: looks really good now but i couldnt test it yet. bs: geddon: real nice...now also easy to fit apoc: see punisher, maller, prophecy ... good with autocannons otherwise its meh....maybe useful if you want to shoot at some pos for a few hours. abaddon: can be fit as either a better geddon or better apoc...if you can afford it theres not much reason to use one of the lesser versions. now if you have a look though the whole list you may catch onto a pattern of sorts: tanking with lasers but without a proper bonus to lasers sucks badly -> our tankers are all having problems if you fit them with lasers. the other ships arent all that bad really (aside from the omen wich seriosuly needs some tweaks). oh and one ship is still missing after over 4 years. there are also some other issues with amarr: - some crystals do too much em and too little heat (radio for example) - t2 crystals are too expensive by design - em resistance on armortanks is too high (too many armortanks, too many omnitanks) - too little cap advantage for the race thats supposed to be kings of capacitor warfare. - some ships could use less shield and more armor (khanid)
Antikas Sourr Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:34:00 - [111] Edited by: Antikas Sourr on 26/09/2007 20:35:29 Originally by: Lisento Slaven I fly the ships and have been for a long time. Tactics play a big role in everything with the Amarr just as they do for other races (although the other races have more solo ships which obviously have simpler solo tactics). I stand by my opinion that the Amarr ships are satisfactory in regards to functionality, are entertaining to fly/use, and are competitive. The zealot and apocalypse on a ship by ship basis are the only ones that I have a problem with in EVE on the Amarrian side. I agree with this. Tactics are quite needy for Amarr ships, if not Caldari aswell. I definately enjoy Amarr ships like you do, right on!
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:36:00 - [112] And if Lasers are fine how come no other race even thinks of putting them on their ships? Since they have a good optimal that balances everything out? Amarr pilots, not only train Lasers, they train Projectiles as well for ships without a laser rof/dmg bonus. So why does no other race even entertain the notion of training up Lasers? Doesn't it say something about Lasers that Amarrian players find chances not to use them?
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:36:00 - [113] Udyr Vulpayne you again reiterate that the 2 boni laser ships are ok:ish and that the one boni ones suck. How can you in any situation jusifying a ship beeing better with an unbonused wep than a bonused onw (cap use). That is my main issue in this debate. //mika
Lisento Slaven Amarr BAD ATTITUDES	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:48:00 - [114] Originally by: Rialtor And if Lasers are fine how come no other race even thinks of putting them on their ships? Since they have a good optimal that balances everything out? Amarr pilots, not only train Lasers, they train Projectiles as well for ships without a laser rof/dmg bonus. So why does no other race even entertain the notion of training up Lasers? Doesn't it say something about Lasers that Amarrian players find chances not to use them? The Apocalypse is the only Amarrian ship that I hear people putting projectiles on. And that's one of the ships I think are in need of a rethink. If anyone puts projectiles on an amarrian ship that gets a damage/rof bonus to guns, then they are using a setup that relies on cap intensely. In that case I'd put missiles/projectiles on any ship if I really need cap to tank super sized. No one puts lasers on their ships because they can't run the lasers. Amarrian ships run the lasers fine with the cap use bonus. So they get super range and decent damage. --- Put in space whales!
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:54:00 - [115] Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 20:54:55 Edited by: Mika Meisk on 26/09/2007 20:54:03 Quote: The Apocalypse is the only Amarrian ship that I hear people putting projectiles on. And that's one of the ships I think are in need of a rethink. If anyone puts projectiles on an amarrian ship that gets a damage/rof bonus to guns, then they are using a setup that relies on cap intensely. In that case I'd put missiles/projectiles on any ship if I really need cap to tank super sized. No one puts lasers on their ships because they can't run the lasers. Amarrian ships run the lasers fine with the cap use bonus. So they get super range and decent damage. Yes the apoc is the only ship that ppl fit projectiles on... All amarr ships not double bonused suffer from this. Prohecy, arbitrator, maller, apoc, punisher so yeah there is something wrong if you need two bonuses to compete when none boni win over one. //mika
Ishina Fel Caldari Synergy. Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:54:00 - [116] I pretty much agree with the OP. I'm currently picking up a couple Amarr ship skills, and even with only a few levels here and there their (laser!) ships do great in missions (and look awesome while at it, pew pew). My single heatsink medium beam punisher had similar wrecking hits to a dual MFS'd 250mm rail Ferox at about half the optimal (that's a difference of maybe 10 km, folks) with vastly improved tracking, and tanks lvl 2's better than a medium shield extended Rifter at the same time. (Note that me being Caldari, my shield tanking skills are significantly more developed than my armor tanking skills.) I've also been looking into a Harbinger on EFT, with only a day away from unlocking Amarr BCs, and I must say I'm quite boggled to see how easy to fit that ship is. So, I don't know what the Amarr boys want from their ships, but so far I've been pretty impressed. I'll concede that in PvP, high EM resistances (which NPCs don't have) will hurt a lot. Thus here's my support for lowering base armor EM resistance. Maybe take off 10% or so. One could even deliberate adding the same value to shields, when feeling adventurous. /set Goumindong +ignore
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.09.26 20:56:00 - [117] Originally by: Mika Meisk Udyr Vulpayne you again reiterate that the 2 boni laser ships are ok:ish and that the one boni ones suck. How can you in any situation jusifying a ship beeing better with an unbonused wep than a bonused onw (cap use). That is my main issue in this debate. its capuse + fitting costs + crappy damagetype on lasers if you take a punisher,maller,.. and fit it with lasers and tank you get crappy damage and an okish tank. if you take the same ship and fit autocannons you still do a bit less damage but with better damagetypes -> ending up with still crappy damage. however on top of that you have a lot more grid left to fit a heavy tank and a lot more cap to use that tank.
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:01:00 - [118] Quote: its capuse + fitting costs + crappy damagetype on lasers if you take a punisher,maller,.. and fit it with lasers and tank you get crappy damage and an okish tank. if you take the same ship and fit autocannons you still do a bit less damage but with better damagetypes -> ending up with still crappy damage. however on top of that you have a lot more grid left to fit a heavy tank and a lot more cap to use that tank. And better crapp tank with better crappy dammage at the same time on a bonused, using unbonused weps, ship isnt damned strange how? //mika
Mika Meisk Caldari	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:04:00 - [119] Quote: The hidden bonus that amarrians get is the fact that their optimal range is crazy compared to every other short range gun. If you choose to not use this advantage then you obviously will not see this as an advantage. Lasers do not work the same as hybrids/projectiles because that would be boring. Damn it Lisento we've bee through that several times in this thread. If you cant use that enough to mitigate the downside then theres no use. And such are the game mechanics today, midrange = obsolete. And just cause if you tackle and keep someone in their place it doesnt mean its good. It means given the opportunity to use overwhelming ewar you win.... duh....!
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.09.26 21:14:00 - [120] Originally by: Lisento Slaven The Apocalypse is the only Amarrian ship that I hear people putting projectiles on. And that's one of the ships I think are in need of a rethink. If anyone puts projectiles on an amarrian ship that gets a damage/rof bonus to guns, then they are using a setup that relies on cap intensely. In that case I'd put missiles/projectiles on any ship if I really need cap to tank super sized. No one puts lasers on their ships because they can't run the lasers. Amarrian ships run the lasers fine with the cap use bonus. So they get super range and decent damage. It was actually a rhetorical question, but there's several ships: Prophecy, Apoc, Maller, Punisher, Arbitrator (if you decide to use guns for some extra dps). In an optimal setup none of these ships use lasers. They have the cap bonus, but Projectiles end up being the better option given all the opportunity costs.

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