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DocEG says he can't be of any use in here. Care to prove him wrong ?

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Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.28 10:25:00 - [1] Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG With regard to the question on if I will be more present on the market forums the answer is; not really. The market forum is simply so active that if I would be contributing to that forum I could do little else. Rest assured though that I read those forums. No offense, but... WHAT ? So, you're reading them (so, you do spend a lot of time, as per your own admission they're quite lively) BUT can't be bothered to give us any feedback whatsoever, or ask questions, or... well... just... anything ? That's a quite dissapointing series of statements. We're not asking for anything like a point-by-point rebuttal of our wrong ideas, we're not asking you to make or break anything. We're merely asking you to give us a tiny bit of feedback every once in a while to THOSE threads you supposedly read. Originally by: CCP Dr.EyjoG The idea of making the data available for pilots is an interesting one. Being able to tap into the brainpower and knowledge of EVE residence by sharing some of the historical data could result in interesting analysis, interpretation and discussion on the economics of EVE. Perhaps this is something we should discuss at one of the round tables at the EVE Fanfest 2007. Or perhaps this is something that you could also discuss in a specific thread in the market forum. Or, heck, a WHOLE NEW subforum where you could drop in weekly and spend a couple of hours, give us some data/details/tasks and ask for theories/solutions. Also, you know, some people couldn't come to the fanfest even if they WANTED to. And to be honest, those you MIGHT want to have there for an interesting chat are the ones most unlikely to attend. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.09.28 10:43:00 - [2] IMHO we have more than enough newbies spamming this forum. Why add the useless as well? It's A GIRL!!!!!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.28 10:52:00 - [3] Because "the newbie" (as you call him) might just be the key element responsable for some of the "economic side" decisions in the game... that's why. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Karanth Gallente Cirrius Technologies O X I D E	Posted - 2007.09.28 11:32:00 - [4] Active or not, dropping the occasional thread or post takes minutes. No reason not to, really. At worst, you need to clarify later, and even then, something useful often comes up while people speculate. Even if people understand, doesn't mean that it was wasted. Free beer for those who mod my sig! There is only one sig hijack that matters, the orginal and only member of the hijack squad. me. -Eris. ps Black russians are better then beer. I'll see your beer, and raise you a goat kebab -Tirg I'll take that pint and raise you two -Timmeh I bet 2 goats, 1 pint and a bag of slugs -Lordharold I grab it all, cook it/eat and drink it all and say thank you. -Pirlouit I'll call your bluff, and go all in on 3 locks of Hutch's hair. -Incognus I'll see that bet, depending on where the hair came from. -Rauth pushes the other mods out of the way Mmmm, bree - Karass Bree & goat kebabs!!! I'm in!! - Yips IT WAS ME, MUHAHAHA. -Hango How did I miss free BREE!!? -Kaemonn always fashionably late - Deckard Better late than never! -Sahwoolo
Jaeger Orlofsson VentureCorp Imperial Republic Of the North	Posted - 2007.09.28 11:36:00 - [5] Originally by: Shar Tegral IMHO we have more than enough newbies spamming this forum. Why add the useless as well? I'm waiting for a thread from him titled "Do you wish for growth?"
Block Ukx KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.09.28 11:51:00 - [6] Akita, Did you applied to the CCP economist position? Hmmà on second thought not a good idea. I can see you beating the dev with the keyboard for doing a crappie job. I can see the fire in your heart to improve the eve economy. Dr. EyjoG may have the knowledge but I think he lacks the passion you have for the eve economy. ItÆs really disappointing that he is not willing to engage in this forum.
Atherin Gaius Caldari Domini Umbrus	Posted - 2007.09.28 11:59:00 - [7] I agree with akita.... So we have this new uber economist guy that is supposed to study the growth of the eve econmy and he doesn't want to interact with the people that are driving a portion of the growth? It's not like we has to reply to EVERY thread. An occaisional post to those that he finds interesting would be adequate. I see multiple posts from multiple players in multiple posts and I am pretty sure that they still get stuff done during the day other than read and post to the market dicussions. His comments just show how disinterested he actually is in what is going on in eve. 1 mil isk that he doesn't even post here to defend himself.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.28 12:05:00 - [8] Originally by: Block Ukx I can see you beating the dev with the keyboard for doing a crappie job. Carrot and stick more likely Free beer, no free beer, drink all other free beers around... stuff like that Originally by: Atherin Gaius 1 mil isk that he doesn't even post here to defend himself. I take that bet if you offer 1:20 odds _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
SencneS Amarr Balsarferskratchin Inc Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.09.28 13:50:00 - [9] Originally by: Akita T Carrot and stick more likely Free beer, no free beer, drink all other free beers around... stuff like that I tend to believe the ones who developer the deep coding into things like the economy are extreme geeks in multiple levels, like in Computer Programing, Accounting, Economics. These people don't go after common beer, they probably have Red Bull, and add two table spoons of coffee concentrate. And chew sugar coated Coffee beans as a treat! Amarr for Life
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.09.28 14:49:00 - [10] Edited by: Kazuo Ishiguro on 28/09/2007 14:49:33 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Atherin Gaius 1 mil isk that he doesn't even post here to defend himself. I take that bet if you offer 1:20 odds I will lay those odds. 20m is yours, Akita, if he posts in this thread. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Taikun Gallente Serenity Prime Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.09.28 14:52:00 - [11] As far as I am concerned about the good doctor the following quote applies. "An economist is an expert who will know tomorrow why the things he predicted yesterday didn't happen today." Laurence J. Peter (1919-1988) He, or more aptly his position is nothing more than smoke and mirrors from CCP trying to deflect their fundamental failure to address some of the most basic flaws in this game. Heck, when interface design is as bad as it is for as long as it has been I would be ashamed to have "CCP Employee" on my resume. Given time the Doc will come to realise this if he got his degree from anywhere other than a *****er jack box. But that is just my 2 cents. Taikun ----------------------------------- For lack of a better word ladies and gentlemen... Greed is good.
Montaire Genbuku. Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.09.28 14:59:00 - [12] Honestly I kinda agree with him. Im under the impression that The Good Doctor(TM)'s job isnt to help the devs change the EVE Economy, but to observe it and report what he observes. I think the more he interacts with us the more his findings will become tainted or flawed by that interaction. His research would become the fruit of a posioned tree, to borrow a legal term I've been using at work all week. If, on the other hand, his job is to improve EVE's market, then he needs to interact more - a lot more.
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.28 15:03:00 - [13] It would seem his role is limited to analysis as opposed to influence. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.28 15:51:00 - [14] Edited by: Akita T on 28/09/2007 15:56:29 Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Atherin Gaius 1 mil isk that he doesn't even post here to defend himself. I take that bet if you offer 1:20 odds I will lay those odds. 20m is yours, Akita, if he posts in this thread. Edit: actually, that's a bet I can't win unless we specify a deadline of some sort. I'll give you until downtime on Monday. Care to make it my 100 mil vs your 1 bil and we extend the deadline until after the fanfest ? _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Krazy Bitsch	Posted - 2007.09.28 16:32:00 - [15] i say we reprimand him for not posting....do we get on the rest of the devs this much when they dont post in threads? please, get over yourself.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.09.28 16:52:00 - [16] People should go over to the actual thread that he stated that in and make their thoughts known. He actually posts there... so there is tiny tiny tiny chance he would reply there. Plus when I brought up how disappointed I was in those comments in that thread a bunch of people who have never posted in this forum were telling me I was not speaking for this forum when I said how disappointed I was in his statement. I no longer have the link to that thread unfortunately, but I'm sure Akita or someone else here could post it for people to head over and share their thoughts in a place that our economist actually posts in. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.28 17:16:00 - [17] Behold the vast post history of CCP Dr.EyjoG, spanning the entirety of... two. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Major Stallion Four Rings D-L	Posted - 2007.09.28 17:21:00 - [18] Originally by: Akita T Behold the vast post history of CCP Dr.EyjoG, spanning the entirety of... two. wtf is your point, they stated he was brought on to be an analyst. As far as we care, hes doing his job. Analysts in RL dont go out speaking on their findings every week, like you want him to. They release their findings at the end of their tenure. Again, you need to look past your selfish "omg i want info!!!" psyche and just wait to see what hes got to say. ________________________________ High Sec PvP Originally by: "Wylker" CCP has finally mastered stupidity
jongalt	Posted - 2007.09.28 17:41:00 - [19] Edited by: jongalt on 28/09/2007 17:44:21 i would prefer dr. EygoG consider the market forums "impartially", rather than risk forming "relationships" through continued and sustained discussion of eve's economy. the risk for "social engineering" the good doctor for any one person's gain seems to outweigh the benefit of discussing the merits of akita's decryptor theory (for instance). im confidant he takes your posts very seriously, akita. however, there might be an "ethics" question we may not have considered with regard to discussing the economy in any specific way... im not asserting that is the case, but that it is worth considering as a possibility. -jg.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.28 18:07:00 - [20] Take his first "actual" devblog. What's the problem if he THEN posted a topic with, say, "these are the datadumps of mineral trades from EVE's start until two months ago". Then proceed with asking if his assertions in the devblog are right, and ask us about certain things he's not quite sure WHY exactly they happend as they happend. Chaos ensues, frantic posting in the thread, bla bla. Two weeks pass. He comes back in, posts a few quotes from the thread, says "this might be it, I need more info. Here's some more data". More chaos ensues, discussions flare to and fro. Again, two weeks pass. And he comes in again, redirects our efforts towards what's seeming more interesting TO HIM, at the moment. You know, something like that. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.09.28 18:28:00 - [21] Originally by: Akita T Take his first "actual" devblog. What's the problem if he THEN posted a topic with, say, "these are the datadumps of mineral trades from EVE's start until two months ago". Then proceed with asking if his assertions in the devblog are right, and ask us about certain things he's not quite sure WHY exactly they happend as they happend. Chaos ensues, frantic posting in the thread, bla bla. Two weeks pass. He comes back in, posts a few quotes from the thread, says "this might be it, I need more info. Here's some more data". More chaos ensues, discussions flare to and fro. Again, two weeks pass. And he comes in again, redirects our efforts towards what's seeming more interesting TO HIM, at the moment. You know, something like that. Exactly. We WANT him to use us. We want to have him tap our brains on topics he doesn't know very well yet. But he has refused to do so... so honestly the best policy at this point is to just act as though he isn't there. He isn't a dev, he is an economist. He isn't trying to improve the EVE economy, just report on it. He's made that fairly clear to me in his posting history (all 2 of them). Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Krazy Bitsch	Posted - 2007.09.28 18:29:00 - [22] Originally by: Akita T Take his first "actual" devblog. What's the problem if he THEN posted a topic with, say, "these are the datadumps of mineral trades from EVE's start until two months ago". Then proceed with asking if his assertions in the devblog are right, and ask us about certain things he's not quite sure WHY exactly they happend as they happend. Chaos ensues, frantic posting in the thread, bla bla. Two weeks pass. He comes back in, posts a few quotes from the thread, says "this might be it, I need more info. Here's some more data". More chaos ensues, discussions flare to and fro. Again, two weeks pass. And he comes in again, redirects our efforts towards what's seeming more interesting TO HIM, at the You know, something like that. you do realize you DO take this game way too serious...i could swear you post your distaste and disappointment every time someone doesnt do things as per your liking. Keep in mind, its a game, if you think you can do a better job than they are doing then FFS apply to work at CCP??
Kilda Shepp Spartan Industrial Manufacturing	Posted - 2007.09.28 18:38:00 - [23] Originally by: Akita T said stuff Although I would personally LOVE to see Datadumps of traded items like Minerals this information is too powerful to have. The little itty bitty information he gave in the IGN internview created some numbers like. With two numbers, 80 Trillion ISK in circulation, 1.5Trillion trade daily EVE wide. With Project similar to Dr. Slurms OCR project (here) you could come up with enough information on how much, where and when even purchase trends for any item. I saw the original charts in which TheForge was like 800% more then the surrounding areas. That information with the now "global" information about total amount traded and ISK in game gives you a LOT of information.
jongalt	Posted - 2007.09.28 18:39:00 - [24] well, to quote jake from "the sun also rises", "it would be pretty to think so." however, as you know, there is simply too much daylight between what we want and what we have. i can only assume he has his "reasons" be they "ethical" or otherwise...at this point id prefer to take him at "face-value" rather than search for a subtext that may or may not be present in his posts. cynicism has its place (and im not asserting you are being cynical, but that it could be interpreted that way), but at this point i'd be inclined to see it as "wounded sentimentality". -jg.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.09.28 19:04:00 - [25] Originally by: Shadarle He isn't a dev, he is an economist. He isn't trying to improve the EVE economy, just report on it. This is the reason I label the "good doctor" as useless. He will not be enhancing our game experience in any way. I'm quite sure that in his humble opinion he's wasting his valuable talents and training on a bunch of people who really need to get a life. After all, look at how quickly we get a few choice individuals from our own community saying that. Of course from my experience the guys that constantly say "it's just a game" tend to be the biggest whining ***es around but hey... they have to displace their guilt through the use of alts saying "its just a game". But, back on topic, the good doctor is doing a job. Most of the dev's are just as passionately into the "Eve" experience as we are. I say most as there are a few "dev" titled people like the doctor there who simply work for CCP. I guess the difference is some dev's are "Wow, that is sooo cool" and some are "Ka-ching, another paycheck". For me the latter are useless and that is where I categorize him. If I wanted to spend time with drones "clocking time" at work I can do that at work. Not here during recreation. It's A GIRL!!!!!**
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.28 19:26:00 - [26] Originally by: Krazy Bitsch if you think you can do a better job than they are doing then FFS apply to work at CCP?? I doubt they'd hire me, I'm too much of a "what your name says" _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Hexxx Minmatar	Posted - 2007.09.28 20:37:00 - [27] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Shadarle He isn't a dev, he is an economist. He isn't trying to improve the EVE economy, just report on it. This is the reason I label the "good doctor" as useless. He will not be enhancing our game experience in any way. I'm quite sure that in his humble opinion he's wasting his valuable talents and training on a bunch of people who really need to get a life. After all, look at how quickly we get a few choice individuals from our own community saying that. Of course from my experience the guys that constantly say "it's just a game" tend to be the biggest whining *****es around but hey... they have to displace their guilt through the use of alts saying "its just a game". But, back on topic, the good doctor is doing a job. Most of the dev's are just as passionately into the "Eve" experience as we are. I say most as there are a few "dev" titled people like the doctor there who simply work for CCP. I guess the difference is some dev's are "Wow, that is sooo cool" and some are "Ka-ching, another paycheck". For me the latter are useless and that is where I categorize him. If I wanted to spend time with drones "clocking time" at work I can do that at work. Not here during recreation. I disagree. He has value, just not a value which is immiediately beneficial to a majority of market people. This is unfortunet and for many of us, a depature from our expectations. I enjoyed his first blog post and I look forward to his second blog post in 2 days. If nothing else, he has entertainment value. Consulting, IPO Template, and Stock/Bond definitions.
Tradesmark	Posted - 2007.09.28 22:19:00 - [28] What happens when you realize that he has access to data we don't as a community? He can look at everyone of our wallets and see exactly what we are buying/selling, when and where. Some of you may say "so what?" as some of you do alot of trading in Jita; but what about the people who use other more secretive ways of using the market? I.E. his view of the market can vary from a macro to micro level with no restrictions, and if he posted something on these forums he could unintentionally cause a major crises within the market. I ask you, when was the last time that one of the big name traders on this forum listed exactly what they are producing, buying, selling, transporting etc to the rest of the community? Not a damn one of you, which is why it is so hard for 'newbies' to get started in the trading aspect of the game. I all say is be careful what you wish for, because he might just find a way to knock some of you big time traders right off your pedistals
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2007.09.28 23:04:00 - [29] Originally by: Tradesmark I ask you, when was the last time that one of the big name traders on this forum listed exactly what they are producing, buying, selling, transporting etc to the rest of the community? Not a damn one of you, which is why it is so hard for 'newbies' to get started in the trading aspect of the game. Proton Power's Wallet Ask me about Secured ISK Loans from the BMBE.
Treelox Amarr Frontier Technologies	Posted - 2007.09.29 01:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Tradesmark I all say is be careful what you wish for, because he might just find a way to knock some of you big time traders right off your pedistals I For One Welcome Our New Overlords -- http://www./sigs/Treelox/sig.png [orange]signature removed (change the zombie gagging sig) - please email us (with the signature URL) if you want to know why - Pirlouit([email protected]
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.09.29 03:19:00 - [31] Originally by: Tradesmark What happens when you realize that he has access to data we don't as a community? He can look at everyone of our wallets and see exactly what we are buying/selling, when and where. Some of you may say "so what?" as some of you do alot of trading in Jita; but what about the people who use other more secretive ways of using the market? I.E. his view of the market can vary from a macro to micro level with no restrictions, and if he posted something on these forums he could unintentionally cause a major crises within the market. I ask you, when was the last time that one of the big name traders on this forum listed exactly what they are producing, buying, selling, transporting etc to the rest of the community? Not a damn one of you, which is why it is so hard for 'newbies' to get started in the trading aspect of the game. I all say is be careful what you wish for, because he might just find a way to knock some of you big time traders right off your pedistals Yes, because the only two options is to have a person who never posts on these forums and a dev who posts our personal trade secrets. There isn't any possibility of having someone between those extremes. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2007.09.29 09:21:00 - [32] To be honest, I don't blame him. Ask me about Secured ISK Loans from the BMBE.
Daeva Vios Ardent Adversary Anvil.	Posted - 2007.09.29 11:06:00 - [33] Originally by: Ray McCormack To be honest, I don't blame him. QFT
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.09.29 14:34:00 - [34] Originally by: Hexxx He has value, just not a value which is immiediately beneficial to a majority of market people. This is unfortunet and for many of us, a depature from our expectations. I sit corrected. I've always said this regarding the good doctor on these forums. I should have been more clear. I believe that we would find him, those of this forum, useless if he did interact here... within the confines of his job duties. Heck, he might be the life of the party and we already know he ain't dumb. So please don't think I mean he's totally useless. Just, within certain parameters, we are all useless at times. Here, he would be superfluous. Originally by: Tradesmark What happens when you realize that he has access to data we don't as a community? He can look at everyone of our wallets and see exactly what we are buying/selling, when and where. Some of you may say "so what?" as some of you do alot of trading in Jita; but what about the people who use other more secretive ways of using the market? Stated as firmly as someone who doesn't have a clue can do it. As Ray linked, Proton lists his activities for the public to see. At a Hexx workshop I told people about an "upcoming" Zydrine spike. And I often chat in game about my activities without a concern of any kind regarding competition. And, as of yet, I have yet to find an "secretive ways" of using the market. Period. I could, however, disclose my activities to the general public thereby enabling any ass to see where I prefer to operate and give them tactical information for a "blackmail" war declaration. (Those used to be very common actually.) I could empower someone who is looking to do me harm simply from poisoning my market. I don't buy GTC's to gain my isk and I've never hit the t2 lottery gaining myself an isk windfall. (I did get a t2 havoc fury one though, still got it too). There are plenty of reasons for keeping mum. People like you are the #1 reason and I'll say that now: I had to struggle and fight to learn what I know and to get where I am. Unless I like you I'm not going to make it so you get to where I am without the same effort. In fact, since Eve is "just a game" any action of mine that helps you shortcut the learning process steals from you the game experience that CCP is selling to you. And that is why I don't often disclose my methods or thoughts. I will help to explain arcane menus and game mechanics because there really is not a good 'living' manual for Eve other than our collective brains. Other than that... the game is out there. Go play what you pay for, go get what you can earn. Stop whining about the fact that we got here first and we aren't giving you stuff for free. It's A GIRL!!!!!
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.29 15:31:00 - [35] And there are also times when exposing your "trade secrets" can be hugely beneficial to your trade cough _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.30 12:44:00 - [36] Hmm, wasn't today the day the new "historical T2 market thingy" devblog supposed to come out ? Or was that tomorrow ? To be honest, I don't know all that much about the EARLY days of T2, so it might actually be informative for me. The moment I came into this world, POS moon mining was no longer news, research agents had already distributed their first lottery batches of BPOs and so on and so forth. From what I heard, there were some issues with RAMs (they were agent-reward only or somesuch, no BPOs existed for them), and earlier on agents also had T2 component or even T2 item handouts in offers (against LPs) ? I wonder if he'll be mentioniong any of this and point out "where" all these changes happened in the fist place, or will he simply skim over and explain how "modern day" T2 prices fluctuated, and focus mainly on invention ? Not that it will tell much except the raw and uncut history and the very basics of T2 manufacture/invention, and I can bet he'll forget to mention a lot of stuff, but hey, worth reading anyway. Let's give him the benefit of the doubt, until we actually read it first. Then we can complain _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Havok Pierce Gallente Black Lance Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.09.30 16:01:00 - [37] Yes, Dr.EyjoG reads these forums. This is good. That he doesn't post, I believe, is for similar reasons to the usual scarcity of Dev posts: they don't want all the sycophants hopping onto a presumed "bandwagon" because the Dev mentioned his opinion, thereby derailing real discussion.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.09.30 16:39:00 - [38] Devblog up. Not at all what I thought it would be. It was actually even better, sort of. Go read it. Some... cough interesting conclusions. See official comments thread. _ [CNVTF] is recruiting \| Char creation guide \| Stack-nerfing explained
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.09.30 16:51:00 - [39] Originally by: Havok Pierce Yes, Dr.EyjoG reads these forums. This is good. That he doesn't post, I believe, is for similar reasons to the usual scarcity of Dev posts: they don't want all the sycophants hopping onto a presumed "bandwagon" because the Dev mentioned his opinion, thereby derailing real discussion. sigh If only people would actually read what we were asking for. We want the Dev to start some discussions or re-direct some discussions so that he can learn the market quicker. We want him to ask us a few questions or to ask us to discuss a certain topic so that he can very quickly catch up on things he isn't very familiar with. We don't want him to tell us, Player Y is a SOOOO WRONG it's totally the way Shadarle said. Since we all know I'm right anyhow. We just want to do what we can to help him, but he isn't interested it seems. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.09.30 16:52:00 - [40] Originally by: Shar Tegral IMHO we have more than enough newbies spamming this forum. Why add the useless as well? i'm a useless noob and even i agree with this statement about the eve economist that has no clue wtf eve is about.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.09.30 16:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Montaire Honestly I kinda agree with him. Im under the impression that The Good Doctor(TM)'s job isnt to help the devs change the EVE Economy, but to observe it and report what he observes. I think the more he interacts with us the more his findings will become tainted or flawed by that interaction. His research would become the fruit of a posioned tree, to borrow a legal term I've been using at work all week. If, on the other hand, his job is to improve EVE's market, then he needs to interact more - a lot more. check his post on eve-o. he was talking about making stock markets and changing this, and fixing that.
jongalt	Posted - 2007.09.30 17:08:00 - [42] lol. i really, really doubt people's motives for having the dr. "discuss" the market in a sustained discussion are as "noble" as its being presented. -jg.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.09.30 17:24:00 - [43] Originally by: Shadarle People should go over to the actual thread that he stated that in and make their thoughts known. He actually posts there... um, i made a post there. or five.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.09.30 17:25:00 - [44] Originally by: Major Stallion Originally by: Akita T Behold the vast post history of CCP Dr.EyjoG, spanning the entirety of... two. wtf is your point, they stated he was brought on to be an analyst. As far as we care, hes doing his job. Analysts in RL dont go out speaking on their findings every week, like you want him to. They release their findings at the end of their tenure. Again, you need to look past your selfish "omg i want info!!!" psyche and just wait to see what hes got to say. did you read the first of his two posts? if you did, i think you forgot what he put into it. please go re-read it now. thanks.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.09.30 17:27:00 - [45] Originally by: jongalt Edited by: jongalt on 28/09/2007 17:47:46 Edited by: jongalt on 28/09/2007 17:44:21 i would prefer dr. EygoG consider the market forums "impartially", rather than risk forming "relationships" through continued and sustained discussion of eve's economy. the risk for "social engineering" the good doctor for any one person's gain seems to outweigh the benefit of discussing the merits of akita's decryptor theory (for instance). im confidant he takes your posts very seriously, akita. however, there might be an "ethics" question we may not have considered with regard to discussing the economy in any specific way... im not asserting that is the case, but that it is worth considering as a possibility. it might even be more "ethical" for him to create an alt for the purpose of engaging in market forum discussion, rather than risk using his "credibility" as the economist of eve as a means of having people extend him a "credit-line" that might not normally be extended to people in the market forums... -jg. well, this actually goes against what we've heard from bob-types all this time. we should actually cultivate friendships with members of ccp, in order to help them make a better game for us to play. if anyone disagrees with this, linkage or you're lying and therefore, a liar.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.09.30 17:29:00 - [46] Originally by: Krazy Bitsch Originally by: Akita T Take his first "actual" devblog. What's the problem if he THEN posted a topic with, say, "these are the datadumps of mineral trades from EVE's start until two months ago". Then proceed with asking if his assertions in the devblog are right, and ask us about certain things he's not quite sure WHY exactly they happend as they happend. Chaos ensues, frantic posting in the thread, bla bla. Two weeks pass. He comes back in, posts a few quotes from the thread, says "this might be it, I need more info. Here's some more data". More chaos ensues, discussions flare to and fro. Again, two weeks pass. And he comes in again, redirects our efforts towards what's seeming more interesting TO HIM, at the You know, something like that. you do realize you DO take this game way too serious...i could swear you post your distaste and disappointment every time someone doesnt do things as per your liking. Keep in mind, its a game, if you think you can do a better job than they are doing then FFS apply to work at CCP?? by pointing that out, doesn't that imply the same for you? otherwise, you would simply just not care and let it alone. nice ! avatar. odd seeing someone alt posting on the market forum of all places. has there been a rash of trader war decs lately that i've missed?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.01 07:06:00 - [47] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Krazy Bitsch you do realize you DO take this game way too serious...i could swear you post your distaste and disappointment every time someone doesnt do things as per your liking. by pointing that out, doesn't that imply the same for you? otherwise, you would simply just not care and let it alone. nice ! avatar. odd seeing someone alt posting on the market forum of all places. has there been a rash of trader war decs lately that i've missed? Hey, trading is Serious Bussiness™, I'm SURE it attracts lots of hate and will provoke assasination attempts... once ambulation is in place _ Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting...
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2007.10.01 07:22:00 - [48] Originally by: Akita T Hey, trading is Serious BussinessÖ, I'm SURE it attracts lots of hate and will provoke assasination attempts... once ambulation is in place The one thing I really want to see in ambulation is the ability to silently creep up behind someone and slit the ****'s throat that's been undercutting me by .01 ISK. Ask me about Secured ISK Loans from the BMBE**.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.01 11:56:00 - [49] Originally by: Akita T Take his first "actual" devblog. What's the problem if he THEN posted a topic with, say, "these are the datadumps of mineral trades from EVE's start until two months ago". Then proceed with asking if his assertions in the devblog are right, and ask us about certain things he's not quite sure WHY exactly they happend as they happend. Chaos ensues, frantic posting in the thread, bla bla. Two weeks pass. He comes back in, posts a few quotes from the thread, says "this might be it, I need more info. Here's some more data". More chaos ensues, discussions flare to and fro. Again, two weeks pass. And he comes in again, redirects our efforts towards what's seeming more interesting TO HIM, at the moment. The trouble with this "directed enquiry" approach is what the directions give away about the market, especially if you start drilling down further than the very general macro level that his dev blogs are at. I think the Dr is being very careful about what he does, and is erring on the side of caution, because the last thing he wants to do is start doing is giving away free market tips. The closest comparison that comes to mind are the dev postings about ships and module balance - they'll post the raw properties of the modules, sometimes a few dps graphs, but I can't recall a single time I've seen them post a full setup - the most they'll do is describe the general role they're aiming something for. That's why a lot of really huge balance threads seem to get ignored - because the devs know there's a way for the players to solve what's being moaned about and are waiting for the players to figure it out for themselves. The Dr should be working the same way - providing the information required and a very general overview, but avoiding directing or helping players in the detail or specific applications of that information. He also needs to be careful that any interaction he does have doesn't end up being with a small "in-crowd" of market forum personalities, at the expense of the wider economy. The market forum comes across as being quite clique-ey, which is understandable given the large element of trust inherent in things like the current IPO system. As we've seen with alliance happenings, even the appearance of bias towards one group can cause huge problems. Originally by: Shadarle We want the Dev to start some discussions or re-direct some discussions so that he can learn the market quicker. We want him to ask us a few questions or to ask us to discuss a certain topic so that he can very quickly catch up on things he isn't very familiar with. We don't want him to tell us, Player Y is a SOOOO WRONG it's totally the way Shadarle said. Since we all know I'm right anyhow. We just want to do what we can to help him, but he isn't interested it seems. The Dr learning from people within the system would be a two-edged sword, it's nowhere near as simple as him popping into the forum for a friendly chat. While undoubtably there are things he could pick up, there is a lot of "conventional wisdom" that is actually misconception. Not to mention that there will be people trying to misdirect him, or present biased arguments in order to try and further their own ends, just as happens in all parts of the forum. I certianly wouldn't want to see "playing the Dr" become a part of playing the market. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Esmenet	Posted - 2007.10.01 12:19:00 - [50] Originally by: Atherin Gaius 1 mil isk that he doesn't even post here to defend himself. Why should he?
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:21:00 - [51] Originally by: jongalt i really, really doubt people's motives for having the dr. "discuss" the market in a sustained discussion are as "noble" as its being presented. From this statement I guarantee that I will never ever mistake anything you post as "noble" as you apparently can not envision others being so. People are often limited by their own capabilities, or lack of, in their perceptions of others. But let me put it to you like this: Instead of trying to disprove your obvious bullcrap statement I suggest you try to disprove any supposed nobility of mine. Taking a page from Bob's book: Proof or STFU. Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.01 16:31:00 - [52] Originally by: Matthew He also needs to be careful that any interaction he does have doesn't end up being with a small "in-crowd" of market forum personalities, at the expense of the wider economy. The market forum comes across as being quite clique-ey, which is understandable given the large element of trust inherent in things like the current IPO system. As we've seen with alliance happenings, even the appearance of bias towards one group can cause huge problems. I'm tired of this whole "clique" accusation that goes on around here. There are four groups of people that visit these forums. Those who have proven themselves Those who have not proven themselves Those who lurk for the occasional hot tip And those who have proven themselves as full of crap. Our so called cliquey forum is pretty much no different than any other. The reason that some of us treat each other with respect is also multifactorial: We like to act like adults We know how hard it was to get where we all are today We know that if we don't give each other respect, none of you asses will. Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
jongalt	Posted - 2007.10.01 17:36:00 - [53] Edited by: jongalt on 01/10/2007 17:38:52 LOL. i have never "solicited" trust of any kind from any one in the forum. nor would i. i stand behind my words. if you see "cynicism" or an allegiance to something other than "nobility" that is your problem. thanks for your honesty, though. -jg.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:07:00 - [54] i was part of a clique. once. then i podded them.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.01 18:36:00 - [55] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: jongalt i really, really doubt people's motives for having the dr. "discuss" the market in a sustained discussion are as "noble" as its being presented. From this statement I guarantee that I will never ever mistake anything you post as "noble" as you apparently can not envision others being so. People are often limited by their own capabilities, or lack of, in their perceptions of others. But let me put it to you like this: Instead of trying to disprove your obvious bullcrap statement I suggest you try to disprove any supposed nobility of mine. Taking a page from Bob's book: Proof or STFU. Unfortunately, none of the devs, including the Dr, can afford to assume nobility in the actions of players. There will be some who are not noble, even if you are. Assuming everyone has good intentions is a luxury they simply don't have. Originally by: Shar Tegral I'm tired of this whole "clique" accusation that goes on around here. There are four groups of people that visit these forums. Those who have proven themselves Those who have not proven themselves Those who lurk for the occasional hot tip And those who have proven themselves as full of crap. Our so called cliquey forum is pretty much no different than any other. Which as I said is a completely understandable approach when it comes to IPO's etc, because of the trust factor required. But there are those who are active in the market, feel no need to "prove" themselves to the market forum aristocracy, and would just like their point to be judged on it's own merits, rather than on who you're friendly with. It shouldn't matter whether I've "proven" myself if I come out with something correct, and even the most highly-thought-of player should be able to be called on it, by anyone, when they have a brain-fart. Sadly, that is not always the case. There does appear to be a tendency, intended or not, to simply close ranks when a "senior" member is questioned, and fighting arguments with reputation rather than facts. It's by no means everyone, and by no means all the time, but it happens just enough to get people's backs up, and it is this that I believe is leading to the clique accusations. And just to emphasise: I'm not saying it's any particular individuals doing this, or even that it's the intention of the group to generate this. But it is clearly a perception that is coming across, and keeping silent about it isn't going to make it go away. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Shadarle	Posted - 2007.10.01 19:01:00 - [56] Edited by: Shadarle on 01/10/2007 19:01:23 Basically people are saying the Dev's should be lazy and not post here because if they did post here they would be unable to avoid destroying the market by undo influence and they would only take advice from a tiny clique and wouldn't be able to read the comments others made. I have a bit more confidence in a dev's posting ability and intelligence than some posters here it seems. Perhaps I am wrong to have such confidence and perhaps the lack of posts proves me wrong... but I guess I'm an optimist, albeit a cynical one. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.01 20:58:00 - [57] Originally by: Matthew There does appear to be a tendency, intended or not, to simply close ranks when a "senior" member is questioned, and fighting arguments with reputation rather than facts. I we call that "fail". fail at eve. fail at forums. fail at life probably. it's like mommy saying, "cuz i said so." and the real reason is because she's being lazy and doesn't feel like being bothered to do something for 5 minutes. but hey, as long as that group completely funds each other's projects - more power to them. when they try to push that onto the general populace...
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.01 21:52:00 - [58] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/09/2007 16:01:43 Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Atherin Gaius 1 mil isk that he doesn't even post here to defend himself. I take that bet if you offer 1:20 odds I will lay those odds. 20m is yours, Akita, if he posts in this thread. Edit: actually, that's a bet I can't win unless we specify a deadline of some sort. I'll give you until downtime on Monday. You're ON ! But I think I'll lose the bet Time's up - 1m please My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.02 00:09:00 - [59] I'm going to start off by saying your post is crap, crap, and completely utter crap. I shall present to you why. Originally by: Matthew Which as I said is a completely understandable approach when it comes to IPO's etc, because of the trust factor required. This forum is not the IPO only forum. There is alot of ipo discussion because this forum is the only place ipos can be discussed. Every other possible market place discussion can actually exist, if imperfectly, in some other forum. Just because you happen to have seen mostly ipo discussions here, in your limited experience, doesn't make it so. There was life before you and most likely there will be life here after you. Originally by: Matthew But there are those who are active in the market, feel no need to "prove" themselves to the market forum aristocracy, and would just like their point to be judged on it's own merits, rather than on who you're friendly with. Blah, blah, blah. Do I strike you as someone who gets by on who I'm friendly with?!? (I'd like to know who those people are by they way!) And what is this forum aristocracy you keep trying to pretend exists? There are some who have greater ability at expressing coherent thoughts, some who have proven themselves in various things and are listened to, and then there are some like you. Sounds kind of reasonable but then most politicians and demagogues do. The trouble is that if you really look at what they are saying you find it's just a bunch of sugar coated crap pandered to the masses in order to sound like you know what you are talking about. Originally by: Matthew It shouldn't matter whether I've "proven" myself if I come out with something correct, and even the most highly-thought-of player should be able to be called on it, by anyone, when they have a brain-fart. Sadly, that is not always the case. Well considering how authoritatively you said that we will just have to believe you know what you are talking about don't we? If you say something intelligent and/or correct you prove yourself. If you don't, you don't. I don't see why you have to state that like you've uncovered some great store of wisdom you are sharing or some heinous flaw in the people here. No one gets a freebie here even if they've proven themselves. You only have to look at any thread complaining about "Insert Toon/IPO here" and you will find plenty of people expressing opinions for or against. This is not a closed forum where only some get to speak. It is public and everyone gets a voice. Even people that can't seem to put two coherent words together, they speak too. Originally by: Matthew But it is clearly a perception that is coming across, and keeping silent about it isn't going to make it go away. To close, you have no credibility mate. Not with this conspiracy tinfoil beanie crapola you are trying to sell. Furthermore, the stuff you are pandering is worthless as it has zero relevance here. The environment is not as you describe it so go earn your credibility elsewhere or with something worthwhile. In this forum, unlike COAD, it takes more than reasonable sounding ambiguous statements of nebuluous illuminati overseers to earn respectability. Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd but hey, as long as that group completely funds each other's projects - more power to them. when they try to push that onto the general populace... And here is one I generally is respect even if he seems to like to spit at this community when he gets the chance. The thing he doesn't say is that he was at the head of a failed ipo. There is usually only two kinds, successful or scam. To have a failed one is a unique honor. He should feel free to tell us all about it. Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
jongalt	Posted - 2007.10.02 01:45:00 - [60] thank you for your candor, shar tegral.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.02 02:04:00 - [61] Originally by: jongalt thank you for your candor, shar tegral. Sorry if I seem a bit touchey about this topic. It's just one of those things that does tend to set me off. Just because it appears that most people in Eve are some form of grifter by nature, always playing some angle to get over on everyone else, does not mean that everyone is of that mold. I can honestly say I've never done a dirty deal in Eve. Never stabbed someone in the back nor have I ever exploited my way to a win. I always do as I say and mean what I say. Nobility is not a foreign concept to me and I see it in others on a regular basis. Here and elsewhere in game. So for the purposes of this thread, where we are talking about the betterment of this game that some of us have invested 5 - 6 years of effort in, realize that our purpose is not about getting ahead. We are all already ahead. Way ahead. We do care about where this game is going as we pretty much intend to be here to turn out the lights. And we want the game to grow, develop, and linger as much as any Dev. In fact, most of us who are trying to be active in the realm of game improvement have vigorously been so for most of those years I mentioned. This is not a new effort in any way. Just something you have not seen before but many have not been here long enough to know that. PS: For the jerks that like to say, "Well if you think you know so much apply to work at CCP"... I don't care to live in Iceland so stfu.(You do know that is a job requirement right?) Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.10.02 04:01:00 - [62] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: jongalt thank you for your candor, shar tegral. Sorry if I seem a bit touchey about this topic. It's just one of those things that does tend to set me off. Just because it appears that most people in Eve are some form of grifter by nature, always playing some angle to get over on everyone else, does not mean that everyone is of that mold. I can honestly say I've never done a dirty deal in Eve. Never stabbed someone in the back nor have I ever exploited my way to a win. I always do as I say and mean what I say. Nobility is not a foreign concept to me and I see it in others on a regular basis. Here and elsewhere in game. So for the purposes of this thread, where we are talking about the betterment of this game that some of us have invested 5 - 6 years of effort in, realize that our purpose is not about getting ahead. We are all already ahead. Way ahead. We do care about where this game is going as we pretty much intend to be here to turn out the lights. And we want the game to grow, develop, and linger as much as any Dev. In fact, most of us who are trying to be active in the realm of game improvement have vigorously been so for most of those years I mentioned. This is not a new effort in any way. Just something you have not seen before but many have not been here long enough to know that. PS: For the jerks that like to say, "Well if you think you know so much apply to work at CCP"... I don't care to live in Iceland so stfu.(You do know that is a job requirement right?) They have offices in Georgia now. <sig> Tired of the inane ramblings of the incompetent? Click here </sig>
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.02 04:05:00 - [63] Originally by: Dr Slurm They have offices in Georgia now. Yeah, but I've not seen any job offers from CCP in Georgia. (That would tempt the hell out of me though as I'm hoping to retire in the Carolina areas.) Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
Ray McCormack hirr	Posted - 2007.10.02 08:34:00 - [64] Originally by: Shar Tegral Yeah, but I've not seen any job offers from CCP in Georgia. http://ccpgames.com/jobs.aspx Filter by Atlanta (that's in Georgia. They have an airport there, but not much else I'm told. Oh, and some news agency.). Ask me about Secured ISK Loans from the BMBE.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.02 10:53:00 - [65] Originally by: Ray McCormack Filter by Atlanta Bleh, updated since I last looked. Bleh. Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.02 11:24:00 - [66] Originally by: Shadarle Edited by: Shadarle on 01/10/2007 19:01:23 Basically people are saying the Dev's should be lazy and not post here because if they did post here they would be unable to avoid destroying the market by undo influence and they would only take advice from a tiny clique and wouldn't be able to read the comments others made. I have a bit more confidence in a dev's posting ability and intelligence than some posters here it seems. Perhaps I am wrong to have such confidence and perhaps the lack of posts proves me wrong... but I guess I'm an optimist, albeit a cynical one. Well, I wasn't trying to say that he shouldn't post at all. People have been disputing his claim of the amount of time it would take for him to have an active presence. I've been pointing out that there are pitfalls for him that means him maintaining an active presence would be a lot more work than us maintaining it, which may explain why he feels he can't make that commitment alongside the other work he is doing. Originally by: Shar Tegral Blah, blah, blah. Do I strike you as someone who gets by on who I'm friendly with?!? Where did I ever say that you were? My post was in reply to you beacuase you commented on the subject, not because I'm accusing you of being part of it. Originally by: Shar Tegral We do care about where this game is going as we pretty much intend to be here to turn out the lights. And we want the game to grow, develop, and linger as much as any Dev. So do I. I'm saying what I'm saying because I do care. I was under no illusions about the rections i would likely get, I knew this was not going to earn me any popularity. I raised it anyway, because it's more important than my popularity. Originally by: Shar Tegral I can honestly say I've never done a dirty deal in Eve. Never stabbed someone in the back nor have I ever exploited my way to a win. I always do as I say and mean what I say. Nobility is not a foreign concept to me and I see it in others on a regular basis. Here and elsewhere in game. I can say the same. Whether you believe me is up to you. If you genuinely thought that the things I've stated are true, what would your reaction be? What would your nobility and desire for improvement of the game compel you to do? Even if there was a possibility you were mistaken? I would be overjoyed at being wrong about all this. I don't want it to be true. If I'm wrong, the community can vote with their silence, and I'll never mention it again. Anyway, dragging this kicking and screaming back on-topic. Even if there is no clique, the Dr would still have to bear in mind that the actively posting population of the forums is a relatively small section of the playerbase, and is unlikely to reflect the full range of player opinion and activity. Yes, any and all players could post, but a large number of them won't. While it may seem easy to just say that the ones that are posting are making the effort and deserve it, the Dr can't afford that luxury if he want's a truly unbiased view of what's going on - and bear in mind here I'm talking about sample bias, not personal bias. While this forum could be a valuable source of information, it can only be one of many, and cannot be allowed to swallow up a disproportionate amount of his time (as it could easily do with unfettered interaction). And frankly, I trust the Dr more than our speculations when it comes to determining what is, and is not, a reasonable time commitment given his overall workload. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.02 12:49:00 - [67] Originally by: Matthew So do I. I'm saying what I'm saying because I do care. I was under no illusions about the rections i would likely get, I knew this was not going to earn me any popularity. I raised it anyway, because it's more important than my popularity. I disagree. I think it is all about your popularity and that is why you have brought up the issue as you have. Sadly, you are just another one of those who think that challenging what appears to be "convention" may score you some sort of point(s) when all you are really doing is proving how little you actually know. But you can through alot of text at it so I'll grant you something. I just wish it was something relevant to the topic at hand or this forum in general. If you were wondering, I'm out right challenging and denying your tone of "Mr. Reasonable". No matter which way you try to spin your point there is still one thing missing... a relevant point. Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
jongalt	Posted - 2007.10.02 14:20:00 - [68] whether or not matthew is "right" or "wrong", his points are worth considering. anything less could be interpreted as "arrogance", perhaps even "naive". thinly veiled insults (in any context) add nothing. sacrificing grace in order to gain power is not The Best of All Possible Worlds, is it? -jg.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 14:20:00 - [69] Edited by: Ezoran DuBlaidd on 02/10/2007 14:22:32 Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd but hey, as long as that group completely funds each other's projects - more power to them. when they try to push that onto the general populace... And here is one I generally is respect even if he seems to like to spit at this community when he gets the chance. The thing he doesn't say is that he was at the head of a failed ipo. There is usually only two kinds, successful or scam. To have a failed one is a unique honor. He should feel free to tell us all about it.[/justify] which ipo is that? and i'll tell alllllll about it. i like talking especially when i'm stuck at work for my 9th day of 12 hour shifts straight with NOTHING to do but surf da intarwebs. but if it's lame, i'll bring up your demonification of some dude based upon faulty/hasty research on your part (not me, that other dude, you know who). edited: oh, and i do more than spit, and i do it to everyone i honestly believe (i.e. a fair amount of non tin foil truth) is a fraud, blatantly (and arrogantly) wrong, or is a LIAR.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 14:28:00 - [70] Originally by: Matthew Anyway, dragging this kicking and screaming back on-topic. Even if there is no clique, the Dr would still have to bear in mind that the actively posting population of the forums is a relatively small section of the playerbase, and is unlikely to reflect the full range of player opinion and activity. Yes, any and all players could post, but a large number of them won't. While it may seem easy to just say that the ones that are posting are making the effort and deserve it, the Dr can't afford that luxury if he want's a truly unbiased view of what's going on - and bear in mind here I'm talking about sample bias, not personal bias. While this forum could be a valuable source of information, it can only be one of many, and cannot be allowed to swallow up a disproportionate amount of his time (as it could easily do with unfettered interaction). And frankly, I trust the Dr more than our speculations when it comes to determining what is, and is not, a reasonable time commitment given his overall workload. not sure what point(s) jongalt was referring to, and there's only maybe 3 people i'd bother to defend (because i like them and they do the right thing) and one of them quit cuz some well-respected person on THIS forum is not that good of a person; but, if the above is one of the points... dr eieio has made two posts in the same thread. he could post questions in that thread or other "dev" threads he'd create and have it in that same forum. he could take a few minutes to throw out ideas that strike him whilst researching. he could throw out ideas about things he's trying to fix (npc trading, stock market, etc). he could do a lot, with little effort on his part. he could only answer once a week, once every two weeks. surely, if he IS reading a ton of threads, then having ONE thread which he actively reads and occasionally replies to, would NOT be that difficult? he could also have experienced dev-type-posters review what he posts, before he posts, so he doesn't make any rookie mistakes and reveal too much about something.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.10.02 16:53:00 - [71] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd he could take a few minutes to throw out ideas that strike him whilst researching. he could throw out ideas about things he's trying to fix (npc trading, stock market, etc). he could do a lot, with little effort on his part. he could only answer once a week, once every two weeks. surely, if he IS reading a ton of threads, then having ONE thread which he actively reads and occasionally replies to, would NOT be that difficult? he could also have experienced dev-type-posters review what he posts, before he posts, so he doesn't make any rookie mistakes and reveal too much about something. That's the simple point. It's all about respect to the community, imho. And even if you believe the forum segment of the community is a huge minority (which I no longer believe) this is one of the few ways to make overtures towards the community. Do you sell gtc's? Then perhaps we can do a deal.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:49:00 - [72] Originally by: Shar Tegral I think it is all about your popularity and that is why you have brought up the issue as you have. Sadly, you are just another one of those who think that challenging what appears to be "convention" may score you some sort of point(s) when all you are really doing is proving how little you actually know. I believe you've already aired exactly what I have to say to that. Originally by: Shar Tegral It's just one of those things that does tend to set me off. Just because it appears that most people in Eve are some form of grifter by nature, always playing some angle to get over on everyone else, does not mean that everyone is of that mold. For someone who appears to get so easily frustrated at others doubting your intentions, you're very quick to dish it out yourself. Anyway, I do agree with you on one point. Considering the point I was intending to make in relation to the topic, I could have aired it in a better way. So if you want the point that's relevant to this thread, I'll re-state it for you from my previous post, stripped of any of the baggage of the other topic: The Dr has to bear in mind that the actively posting population of the forums is a relatively small section of the playerbase, and is unlikely to reflect the full range of player opinion and activity. Yes, any and all players could post, but a large number of them won't. While it may seem easy to just say that the ones that are posting are making the effort and deserve it, the Dr can't afford that luxury if he wants a truly unbiased view of what's going on - and bear in mind here I'm talking about sample bias, not personal bias. While this forum could be a valuable source of information, it can only be one of many, and cannot be allowed to swallow up a disproportionate amount of his time (as it could easily do with unfettered interaction). And frankly, I trust the Dr more than our speculations when it comes to determining what is, and is not, a reasonable time commitment given his overall workload. Reading down to your other post, I see that you question whether the forum-posting population is a minority. Unfortunately that is probably an issue that neither of us have sufficient evidence to truly back up. Though I suspect if we really wanted to, and he wanted to, Chribba could use eve-search to extract some relevant metrics, such as the number of unique characters that have posted in the last month. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:50:00 - [73] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd he could take a few minutes to throw out ideas that strike him whilst researching. he could throw out ideas about things he's trying to fix (npc trading, stock market, etc). he could do a lot, with little effort on his part. The problem with just throwing out ideas and tit-bits to the community is that you need a plan to follow up when the community grabs it and runs with it, or when they flame up and rip it to shreds. The history of other balance change "sneak peeks" is clear enough on that score. That plan needs time. If he starts throwing out stuff with no plan or realistic hope of responding or tying it all up at the other end of the process, then all you'd do is replace frustration at not being used with frustration at your efforts being ignored. That's why I think the best way to proceed is for him to release the data dumps with absolutely no steer, tit-bits etc. That way those of us who want to tinker, offer alternative analysis etc can, and the Dr gets a resource he can dip into as and when he can, and as and when it produces something sufficiently important, while not creating an expectation of a detailed dev closure on every issue that we might raise (and we would raise far more than he could hope to address). Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd he could only answer once a week, once every two weeks. surely, if he IS reading a ton of threads, then having ONE thread which he actively reads and occasionally replies to, would NOT be that difficult? he could also have experienced dev-type-posters review what he posts, before he posts, so he doesn't make any rookie mistakes and reveal too much about something. Why can't the monthly reports be the venue for this? Personally I would rather he make fewer, more detailed responses in a structured report format, rather than lots of ad-hoc statements that brush superficially over everything. ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 17:53:00 - [74] Originally by: Matthew Why can't the monthly reports be the venue for this? Personally I would rather he make fewer, more detailed responses in a structured report format, rather than lots of ad-hoc statements that brush superficially over everything. ask dr eieio why they can't be. have you seen him actually REPLY to anyone? or just make a post about his new report? link for his reply please.
jongalt	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:08:00 - [75] ezoran, considering the doctor only published his econ blog this past sunday it might be a bit premature to assert he will not publish a response or to "ascribe" motivation for his "silence". his posting history does support that he responds to his own econ blog, however there is not enough "historical evidence" to forecast the likelihood he will post in the future... and even if he doesnt respond, there is no evidence to ascribe any motivation for his choice other than his workload prohibits a sustained and continued discussion. but if we could take a moment to "speculate" what his motivation might be (other than workload), i would be inclined to say it is an "ethical" one or (less cynically) he is busy playing eve-online using an alt account in order to get "game-play perspective". -jg.
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:11:00 - [76] Originally by: jongalt ezoran, considering the doctor only published his econ blog this past sunday it might be a bit premature to assert he will not publish a response or to "ascribe" motivation for his "silence". his posting history does support that he responds to his own econ blog, however there is not enough "historical evidence" to forecast the likelihood he will post in the future... and even if he doesnt respond, there is no evidence to ascribe any motivation for his choice other than his workload prohibits a sustained and continued discussion. but if we could take a moment to "speculate" what his motivation might be (other than workload), i would be inclined to say it is an "ethical" one or (less cynically) he is busy playing eve-online using an alt account in order to get "game-play perspective". -jg. it's his second blog/report/thingie. it's not like he just did ONE and we haven't seen if he'll reply to it or not. it's not like he just posted a week ago. historically speaking, he's going to ignore the masses.
Matthew Caldari BloodStar Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:13:00 - [77] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Matthew Why can't the monthly reports be the venue for this? Personally I would rather he make fewer, more detailed responses in a structured report format, rather than lots of ad-hoc statements that brush superficially over everything. ask dr eieio why they can't be. have you seen him actually REPLY to anyone? or just make a post about his new report? link for his reply please. Maybe he had the contents of these first reports mapped out before the first one was even published, and wants to get the groundwork laid before zipping off down lots of specific routes of enquiry. He probably had the basic content of the second report laid out before feedback on the first started. Not because he didn't want the feedback, but because that's what the timescales and workload dictate. Maybe that's something for a first start though - if he pre-announces the general topic of the next report at the end of each one, we could then fire up a thread to flag up what we feel are the most important things, which he can then incorporate as part of his research. That way he can still pursue a structured series of reports that work their way through the economy, get some input and involvement from us with minimal extra work, and without having to do any more filtering of his responses than he would do for the report anyway. If we want him to be more responsive, and address the topic of the moment in a more adhoc fashion, then we're going to have to be willing to accept that those responses are going to be less complete. That doesn't mean we shouldn't point out what he missed, but we shouldn't be all omgwftnoob about it (which has been worryingly prevalent in the general feedback to him so far). ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.10.02 18:24:00 - [78] Originally by: Matthew Though I suspect if we really wanted to, and he wanted to, Chribba could use eve-search to extract some relevant metrics, such as the number of unique characters that have posted in the last month. FYI The number of unique characters posting in Market Discussion during September is 578. Did you find Chribba's LoveCan ?

Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:06:00 - [79] Originally by: Chribba Originally by: Matthew Though I suspect if we really wanted to, and he wanted to, Chribba could use eve-search to extract some relevant metrics, such as the number of unique characters that have posted in the last month. FYI The number of unique characters posting in Market Discussion during September is 578. Top 20 or so for percentage of posts AND number of characters (i.e. post lenght) posted out of total ? _ Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting...

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:27:00 - [80] Originally by: Akita T Top 20 or so for percentage of posts AND number of characters (i.e. post lenght) posted out of total ? I read that 5 times now but I'm feeling ****** and don't understand what info you are looking for... Did you find Chribba's LoveCan ?**

jongalt	Posted - 2007.10.02 19:58:00 - [81] chribba, my understanding of akita's post is that he would like to know who the top 20 posters are, what percentage of total posts they contribute, and the total character length of those posts compared with the grand total. -jg.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2007.10.02 20:02:00 - [82] Thanks. I might do such a check (will take a bit longer to do though) but I most likely won't reveal who the posters actually are as it in my opinion lays pretty solid ground for griefing - weather it is or is not the regular forum ho's that lands in the top 20 Did you find Chribba's LoveCan ?

Coconut Joe VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD Te-Ka	Posted - 2007.10.02 20:20:00 - [83] Quote: DocEG says he can't be of any use in here. Care to prove him wrong ? Considering the vitriolic *******s that is coming out of people's keyboards in this thread, I think he's been proved right.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.02 20:25:00 - [84] Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 28/09/2007 16:01:43 Originally by: Kazuo Ishiguro Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Atherin Gaius 1 mil isk that he doesn't even post here to defend himself. I take that bet if you offer 1:20 odds I will lay those odds. 20m is yours, Akita, if he posts in this thread. Edit: actually, that's a bet I can't win unless we specify a deadline of some sort. I'll give you until downtime on Monday. You're ON ! But I think I'll lose the bet Time's up - 1m please Damn, forgot about it Sent _ Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting...
Ezoran DuBlaidd Rivers Enterprises Power Corrupts Industry's	Posted - 2007.10.02 21:17:00 - [85] Originally by: Coconut Joe Quote: DocEG says he can't be of any use in here. Care to prove him wrong ? Considering the vitriolic *******s that is coming out of people's keyboards in this thread, I think he's been proved right. it's been proved that he's of no use?
Hugh Ruka Caldari Free Traders	Posted - 2007.10.02 21:28:00 - [86] Originally by: Ezoran DuBlaidd Originally by: Coconut Joe Quote: DocEG says he can't be of any use in here. Care to prove him wrong ? Considering the vitriolic *****s that is coming out of people's keyboards in this thread, I think he's been proved right. it's been proved that he's of no use? 's good one :-))) Originally by:** Aravel Thon Originally by: Nith Batoxxx Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox............... I am so so terribly sorry...
Khatred Fluffy Mungoose Guinea Pigs	Posted - 2007.10.02 23:20:00 - [87] He would be needed here for what? Oveur could and did extract data and show it and I don't think he's an economist. Or maybe we could learn again how profitable caracal bpos are.

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