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Erlik Draknor
Minmatar
Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.09.29 07:45:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Erlik Draknor on 29/09/2007 07:45:21
So what can be done about it? Make overdrive, polycarbon, and nanofiber mods/rigs less effective? How about a 5% velocity modifier for overdrives I's and a -3% structure bonus for the nanofiber internal structure I? And a similar percentage decrease for the tech 2 versions.
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lag kills
Kapital Punishment
Karnal Knowledge
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Posted - 2007.09.29 07:54:00 -
[2]
You're funny.
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not all who wander are lost. |
Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.09.29 08:12:00 -
[3]
"It is agreed"? Must be nice living in your own fantasy world.
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.09.29 08:25:00 -
[4]
I have to agree that cruisers rutinely going 5+km and inties going at least twice at best ten times as fast is just stupid.
However the problem is not just with the MWD. It's a problem with speed tanks, MWD and the webs.
You need to cross a certain line for speed tanks to be at all effective, while the overeffectiveness of webs in combination with interdictors and bubbles forces everyone to fit MWD.
Easy solution:
Cut MWD bonus to half, cut web efficiency to 70% max. and you have the problem at leased eased a bit...
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P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
arbalesttom
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Posted - 2007.09.29 08:59:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Erlik Draknor
Edited by: Erlik Draknor on 29/09/2007 07:45:21
So what can be done about it? Make overdrive, polycarbon, and nanofiber mods/rigs less effective? How about a 5% velocity modifier for overdrives I's and a -3% structure bonus for the nanofiber internal structure I? And a similar percentage decrease for the tech 2 versions.
Yes, speed still is the iwin button and needs to be nerfed. Please dont lissen to anyone else in this topic, because its verry likely that they will flame you, because there nano******* themself.
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ThunderGodThor
KIA Corp
KIA Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:02:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Erlik Draknor
Edited by: Erlik Draknor on 29/09/2007 07:45:21
So what can be done about it? Make overdrive, polycarbon, and nanofiber mods/rigs less effective? How about a 5% velocity modifier for overdrives I's and a -3% structure bonus for the nanofiber internal structure I? And a similar percentage decrease for the tech 2 versions.
First off post with the main dont hid behind a alt.
second LOL. man where were u before the first nano nerf. last time you had bs's doing that kind a speed. now it back to about where it was and these people through billions of isk to get the speed up let them. just have a cloaked rapier in gang and well they will pop. ffs it ant all that hard to deal with them.
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hellsknights
Hells Angels Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:03:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Laboratus
I have to agree that cruisers rutinely going 5+km and inties going at least twice at best ten times as fast is just stupid.
However the problem is not just with the MWD. It's a problem with speed tanks, MWD and the webs.
You need to cross a certain line for speed tanks to be at all effective, while the overeffectiveness of webs in combination with interdictors and bubbles forces everyone to fit MWD.
Easy solution:
Cut MWD bonus to half, cut web efficiency to 70% max. and you have the problem at leased eased a bit...
Hey BoBo what cruiser's go 5k+ if by cruiser's you mean Hac's well then the only Hac that goes 5k+ without "Snakes"
Is a Vaga.
BTW the Vaga is meant to be fast "fastes cruiser class in the game".
recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
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hellsknights
Hells Angels Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:05:00 -
[8]
BTW you had to start another one of these threads, there are others
to post in, no need in creating another
I CRAP ON THIS THREAD>>>>>>>signed
recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:11:00 -
[9]
Well, I'll agree that there needs to be something done about speed - but I think you're misunderstanding some basic tenants.
First: There's nothing wrong with T2 speeds. If it's purely a T2 fit, it's probably just fine.
Second: There is a problem with snake sets. Snake sets are expensive. Though this isn't a license to solo-pwn people, there are much cheaper counters to it.
Third: Using your brain (just a little) will help you in many tight situations. For instance, you can fly into asteroid belts (this is my favorite), or you can manually fly and then fly out of scram range, or you can use some ewar to force the fight into web range. Or you can use webber drones if the pilot's asleep, or you can bring a friend or two...
Fourth: If it's Minmatar, it's meant to go fast. They have very much sub-par tanks if you nerf speed.
I've seen people whine about my nano fitted Arazu. Going 1500 m/sec. Yes, that's right - 1500m/sec is nano fit, even though a fully tanked Hurricane does 1400 m/sec. Make sure you are not one of these people.
Liang
Yarr? |
iiOs
Blood Corsair's
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:34:00 -
[10]
Originally by: hellsknights
I CRAP ON THIS THREAD
signed
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BB
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:46:00 -
[11]
Now if we get a T1 cruiser with the rap/hugs web bonus (bellicose fix!), then there will be a REAL counter, not one only available to a select few people.
And for everyone saying the Vaga is supposed to be fast, I won't deny that. It is supposed to be the fastest cruiser. It does not need to outrun pretty much any frig to be that though.
The way I see it, the top speeds achievable with high end equipment and implants should scale somewhat like this:
BS: 1500
BCs: 2000
Cruisers: 2500 (Vaga 3000)
Dessies: 3000
Frigs: 3500
Inties/Dictors: 5000
If this sort of reduction in speed warrants a reduction in web efficiency, I am all for that too. But the way speed scales currently is fubar.
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:53:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
BS: 1500
BCs: 2000
Cruisers: 2500 (Vaga 3000)
Dessies: 3000
Frigs: 3500
Inties/Dictors: 5000
If this sort of reduction in speed warrants a reduction in web efficiency, I am all for that too. But the way speed scales currently is fubar.
There is a counter available to everyone. I'd tell you what my specific counter is, but I don't want to scare the Vaga pilots away. 
That said, I disagree with your max skilled fully implanted speeds. For instance, You're effectively nerfing BC's to a maximum of what a not-even-fitted-for-speed Hurricane can do now.
If there's a specific set of implants that are causing a problem, perhaps they should be looked at. As things stand, "All T2" speeds are just fine across the board.
Liang
Yarr? |
Xequecal
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Posted - 2007.09.29 09:54:00 -
[13]
A fully faction/deadspaced out Vagabond with snake set and the other relevant implants can overload to over 30,000m/sec. Since Huginn's rarely nanofit, you are still faster than them even while webbed. It's ridiculous.
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Liang Nuren
The Refugees
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Posted - 2007.09.29 10:02:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Xequecal
A fully faction/deadspaced out Vagabond with snake set and the other relevant implants can overload to over 30,000m/sec. Since Huginn's rarely nanofit, you are still faster than them even while webbed. It's ridiculous.
This is again a problem with a specific set of implants. Taking the snake set out of the equation nerfs the setup down to 16.8km/sec.
A pair of 80% webbers take this speed down to 523m/sec... which seems pretty reasonable to me! And if you spend on your setup even a tenth of what he spent on his setup on his, you can get webs out to reach him too... and then you get 3-4B worth of loot and a billion isk pod ransom.
Liang
Yarr? |
Niccolado Starwalker
Shadow Templars
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Posted - 2007.09.29 10:06:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Erlik Draknor
Edited by: Erlik Draknor on 29/09/2007 07:45:21
So what can be done about it? Make overdrive, polycarbon, and nanofiber mods/rigs less effective? How about a 5% velocity modifier for overdrives I's and a -3% structure bonus for the nanofiber internal structure I? And a similar percentage decrease for the tech 2 versions.
I dont agree with you that speed is imbalanced. Most of my friends ingame dont think its imbalanced.
Originally by: Splagada
you're on eve-o, just go for blunt insults and random crap, please!
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Fuazzole
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Posted - 2007.09.29 10:11:00 -
[16]
no one says why they want it nerfd,... or what is wrong, other then the post about missles being to slow to hit em
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arbalesttom
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Posted - 2007.09.29 10:55:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker
Originally by: Erlik Draknor
Edited by: Erlik Draknor on 29/09/2007 07:45:21
So what can be done about it? Make overdrive, polycarbon, and nanofiber mods/rigs less effective? How about a 5% velocity modifier for overdrives I's and a -3% structure bonus for the nanofiber internal structure I? And a similar percentage decrease for the tech 2 versions.
I dont agree with you that speed is imbalanced. Most of my friends ingame dont think its imbalanced.
I dont agree with you that speed is imbalanced. Most of my friends ingame think its imbalanced.
Crappy arguements ftw
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Azur Tzesaeia
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Posted - 2007.09.29 11:12:00 -
[18]
Read up some Jet tactics and you'll see that speed is simply THE FACTOR that determines who wins in modern air combat. It is because the weapons function at a certtain Optimal range and hit close to hundret percent. In WW1 +WW2 agility was more important since there were no guided weapons. So the pilot who could outmanouver his enemy won.
With guided missles it is only important to be able to get a maximum transversal velocity and in genrall the abbility to outspeed your enemy.
Even if speed moduels would be nerfed, speed would still determine the winner of a fight. It's because evasive manouvers aren't possible in eve. Counter measures are the only way to win without having more speed than the enemy.
All those large ships get easily destroey by smaller ones sionce they are ment to fight big ships. This leads to mixed up gang war instead of one on one warfare what is a must for a massive multiplayer game since it would be pointless without group fights.
SO simply take a inty along and let them battle who is the fastest.
Inteligent approach tactics and manouvers can still win if you are not as quick as the enemy but nearly thats why more than one interceptor can be good in a fight it comes down a bit to pilot skills. With equall intelligence during the manouvers the faster ship wins that is kind of a air combat law.
No nerf can change this except you allow bigger ships to have better drones or something what i certainly don't like sicne it would it make possible to kill players with your own npc drones what would make interceptor useless.
SPee is very good as it is atm.
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Hayward Cyprus
Caldari
Thundercats
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.09.29 11:25:00 -
[19]
Game Balance is either based on some mathematical model or there is no such thing as game balance.
Every perception of game balance in a players head is subjective and probably differs in one way or another from other players view on the same matter (same prolly goes for devs).
In a game with the complexity of eve I doubt there is any way to achieve something that people call balance and everyone is content with that.
So you think nanoships are imbalanced? Can you use them (or train for them)? Do so, when everyone flies nanoships we will prolly only hear whines about omg, damps and neuts are overpowered, because they can make my nano useless or pwn me in no time since all my cap is gone o.0. ....
People should quit takeing some single aspects of the game and calling for balance there when noone even has an idea what balance would be (I include me in there). Unless you can underline with some mathematical model it's pretty much just feelings you are talking about and we all know those are never going to be the same for all players.
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Victor Ivanov
Minmatar
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.09.29 11:40:00 -
[20]
ARGGH YOU PEOPLE MAKE ME WANT TO HURT MYSELF.
For the love of god: Fly something before you whine about it. A vaga going 3k will be absolutely murdered by even the least skilled pilots.
If you are in a BC or higher, a vaga/interceptor will NEVER be able to solo kill you. Unless you are a ******* idiot. Are you a ******* idiot? If they are scramming you and bringing in a gang: Guess what? Superior numbers means you will die. You lost your drake to 3 HAC's? Congrats, you underestimated your opponent and lost your ship as a result of it.
Apologies for the rampant and overt annoyance, but seriously: What is it with you people? Do you take some sadistic pleasure in screaming "Speed tanks are overpowered" when any speed pilot who was hit by the previous speed nerf knows that A SINGLE WRONG TURN that lowers your transversal, or allows missiles to catch up with you can spell DEATH.
I've got a longer post in one of the other nano-whinge threads where I actually elaborate on why you are wrong, so go read that. I can't be bothered with patient repetition for every IDIOT that loses his ship because he doesn't know how to fit it.
Oh and regarding vaga's: They have mass that is far below the cruiser norm, plus a speed bonus. They were supposed to go fast.
As to whoever said that interceptor die to vaga's: What, just because the ship goes fast means it also has ueber weaponry and tracking? A vaga and an inty circling each other won't be able to hit each other. Most vaga's don't fit webs, so a dual webbing Interceptor + scram will spell swift death to a vaga. Don't have the dps to take him down by yourself? Train up your small guns or get a gang member.
If you yell "I have a vaga duall webbed and scrammed" in corp chat, I assure you someone will come. I hunted one down in my stilleto only a few days ago. MC guy pestering ratters in Catch. As soon as he saw me coming, he tried to warp. Failing that, he chose to LOGG, instead of fighting me. I held him down long enough for 2 corp mates (A dictor and another vaga) to fly SEVERAL jumps to arrive and kill him.
Summary for those TL;DR guys: If you lose to a speed tanked ship solo, you are an idiot. If you lose to a gang, you were outnumbered. Speed tanking is fine, stop whinging.
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nuby
Amarr
Imperial Forces
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Posted - 2007.09.29 11:41:00 -
[21]
Don't feed the trolls.
Ignoring threads like that is the best imho.
to the OP: NO, speed is fine as it is.
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xBANDWAGONx
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Posted - 2007.09.29 11:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: nuby
Don't feed the trolls.
Ignoring threads like that is the best imho.
to the OP: NO, speed is fine as it is.
Agreed, speed is fine. Whine to nerf something else... like salvagers. They're horribly imballanced and I might quit if its not fixed. And, yes... you can have my stuff.
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.09.29 12:08:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 29/09/2007 12:08:43
Originally by: Liang Nuren
That said, I disagree with your max skilled fully implanted speeds. For instance, You're effectively nerfing BC's to a maximum of what a not-even-fitted-for-speed Hurricane can do now.
Well that is the whole point. To nerf it. A Hurricane is a Battlecruiser. A Battlecruiser is a capital ship in terms of conventional ship classifications, and even in EVE it is pretty big. Those ships should not be this fast under any circumstances imho.
Another 'fix' I could see would be to make the sig radius a much bigger factor in hit/damage calculations than it currently is, and to actually counteract the speed advantage (like currently a ship with the sig radius of a small moon still receives virtually no damage if it outruns the exp velocity of a missile enough, if the big sig radius would counteract that damage reduction from speed, a lot of the problems might vanish.).
With maybe a little boost to ABs, you would then have to decide between fitting an MWD that makes you terribly fast but the speed of which would not make you that much harder to hit because you also get a huge sig, or an AB which does not give you insane speed, but still makes you fast enough to speedtank a lot of damage sources.
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
Cpt Branko
The Bloody Red
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Posted - 2007.09.29 12:46:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 29/09/2007 12:51:46
Originally by: Gamesguy
"It is agreed"? Must be nice living in your own fantasy world.
This.
The recent alt storm crying for nano nerfs doesn't constitute as the community agreeing that speed needs nerfing...
Nerf Leandro Salazar and his army of merry alts!
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Goumindong
Amarr
Merch Industrial
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.09.29 12:51:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Laboratus
I have to agree that cruisers rutinely going 5+km and inties going at least twice at best ten times as fast is just stupid.
However the problem is not just with the MWD. It's a problem with speed tanks, MWD and the webs.
You need to cross a certain line for speed tanks to be at all effective, while the overeffectiveness of webs in combination with interdictors and bubbles forces everyone to fit MWD.
Easy solution:
Cut MWD bonus to half, cut web efficiency to 70% max. and you have the problem at leased eased a bit...
Better solution
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Captian Internet
Lead Bricks
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Posted - 2007.09.29 12:55:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Xequecal
A fully faction/deadspaced out Vagabond with snake set and the other relevant implants can overload to over 30,000m/sec. Since Huginn's rarely nanofit, you are still faster than them even while webbed. It's ridiculous.
What can you shoot at that speed?
Changes to Local,War ,Navigation Shortcuts |
Sekh Ondaari
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Posted - 2007.09.29 13:12:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Captian Internet
Originally by: Xequecal
A fully faction/deadspaced out Vagabond with snake set and the other relevant implants can overload to over 30,000m/sec. Since Huginn's rarely nanofit, you are still faster than them even while webbed. It's ridiculous.
What can you shoot at that speed?
Missiles. aka crow/sac/cerb even though most of those mentioned never will see _those_ speeds.
It's not speed that is the problem, it's webs and counters. The masspewpew <tm> will sort out alot of them, but not really all. I'd like to see webs being changed heavily aswell, lower the effectiveness, keep the optimal but give them a decent falloff and more skills. It's one of the few ew's that does not have any advanced skills?
And I thought most huginns fit atleast 2 webs? 2% out of 30k?
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mallina
Caldari
Sybrite Inc.
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Posted - 2007.09.29 13:13:00 -
[28]
I don't think the current state of play in EVE is one that is balanced, but then simply 'nerfing speed' isn't the answer IMO.
Speed-setups are based around one thing and one thing only: Being able to run the hell away if things go bad (and generally being able to pick your fights), which, once upon a time, used to be perfectly doable with WCS (Stababond anyone?) until Rev came along.
With the WCS nerfed, the users opted for the alternative: Staying the hell out of webrange. Turns out this also allowed them to almost completely avoid taking damage from slower ships - or simply MWD into the distance and warp off if any kind of danger emerges. The slow ship has no choice but to sit there, hoping they can tank long enough to get some assistance. Cause if they can't, the only option they have 90% of the time is to die.
It's a simple risk vs reward scenario. Flying slower ships is FAR too risky since you're almost guarenteed death if you get in a hairy situation, flying a Nanoship is less risky since you'll only REALLY going to die if you screw up and get in webrange or have an encounter with a Huginn.
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Shadowsword
COLSUP
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.09.29 13:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: nuby
Don't feed the trolls.
Ignoring threads like that is the best imho.
to the OP: NO, speed is fine as it is.
No, it isn't. However clumsily the OP may have been bringing the matter, you know there is a problem when precision light missiles do 0.0 damage, small guns don't track, and even max-skilled light drones are outrunned.
CCP stated a few times that MWD were for approaching the enemy, and afterburners for speed tanking. The fact that you currently get better results with a MWD is what needs changing.
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What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs. |
Nobuo213
Gallente
Coalition of Nations
Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2007.09.29 13:15:00 -
[30]
Speed/Speed tanking is fine,along with cloaking but people will still complain about it constantly.
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