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Lipton
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Posted - 2004.02.19 11:16:00 -
[1]
Well... Maybe it's just me (as allways) but...
I find the nerfing of lasers (Crystals) was a lil bit to harsh.
They kinda suck when it comes to doing damage on armor and when it comes to sheilds, ya sure...
But everyone is using Em and Thermal Hardeners anyhow making the nerfing x2, kinda...
Sure, i dont have to use ammo, but they still eat my cap like a pig mowing through a cherry pie...
And with the nerfing (here it comes again) of Cap relays... How the hell are the laserheads gonna be able to do both damage and try to stay alive for a while...?
I know... I exadurated it, but still...
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.19 11:21:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 19/02/2004 11:22:06
id reduce their cap a bit and give amarr ships a real laser bonus
lasers do have quite a lot of advantages over other weapons though, the crystal nerf was very much jusfified imo
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Nightfang
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Posted - 2004.02.19 11:44:00 -
[3]
The most common argument used as a "pro" for lasers is that they don't require ammo. However, since a single large crystal costs more to produce than a lifetime of AM ammo for a Megathron I really see that as more of a "con".
I don't know if that's what you are referring to solely, Jim, but at least that argument isn't really valid. :/
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2004.02.19 11:52:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Jim Raynor on 19/02/2004 11:52:51
 Quote:
The most common argument used as a "pro" for lasers is that they don't require ammo. However, since a single large crystal costs more to produce than a lifetime of AM ammo for a Megathron I really see that as more of a "con".
I don't know if that's what you are referring to solely, Jim, but at least that argument isn't really valid. :/
No ammo means never having to reload, never having to resupply (which is a logistical advantage), and frees up your cargo hold for cap boosters or whatever.
instantaneous crystal swapping to change range on the fly, is another, everyone else has to wait atleast 10 seconds to switch ammo, in most fights, every second counts.
laser crystals, though nerfed -- ARE still better than projectile/hybrid ammo when it comes to extending range/dmg
lasers are insanely powerful against shields, though yes most people use em/thermal wards, but really, you pretty much HAVE to or you can kiss your shields goodbye in a matter of seconds...
One last thing, lasers track better than most other turrets as well, which is a small advantage.
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ROBBLE ROBBLE |
Lucre
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Posted - 2004.02.19 12:04:00 -
[5]
I tend to agree - I think the scales have tipped a bit too far towards hybrids. Compare a 425 rail and a Megabeam, say - especially figuring in Megathron bonus vs Apoc bonuses - and the hybrid is ahead in most categories. Okay, so the Tach does more damage but not proportionally to its fitting and cap requirements.
I'd also note the planned fixes to armour leakage (and making reliance on armour practical) whilst probably of greatest benefit to Amarr ships is also in effect another nerf on lasers as they're the least effective weapon against armour. So yes, I think they need a little un-nerfing. :-)
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Sahshioh
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Posted - 2004.02.19 12:23:00 -
[6]
everyone is going to switch to hybrids and people will stop using EM hardeners and start using Kinetic and Thermal. The balance is v. good tbh...cap usage should get unnerfed on lasers, but other then that i think gun balance is great.
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Carpo Roolie
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Posted - 2004.02.19 12:50:00 -
[7]
The only problem with lasers is everyone used them and realised that it was easy enough to counter them by using an em and tehrmal ward.
There is nothing wrong with them them per se and the advantages are listed above.
There has been a big swing towards projectiles recently which means you are more likely to recieve other types of damage.
This will mean that not everyone uses Wards aimed at lasers so you will encounter people who you can damage more.
Lasers will then be more useful again.
Its all swings and roundabouts....
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Trevedian
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Posted - 2004.02.19 13:04:00 -
[8]
I agree with Lipton that lasers were nerfed too much... But instead of CCP swinging that arbitrary nerf bat again in an attempt to rectify the situation, I suggest they make it up to us in the form of really good T2 lasers. Instead of this makeshift, patchwork of constantly attempting to balance things, why not start off T2 in a big way and get people excited about the new uber lasers... Give lasers a chance 
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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toaster
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Posted - 2004.02.19 13:40:00 -
[9]
I think lasers are fine and the nerf was totally justified. As was said already, lasers beat on shields very very hard, have instantaneous crystal swapping, and have better tracking than hybrids and projectiles with similar or better base damage modifiers. They are fine, leave them alone.
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Hematic
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Posted - 2004.02.19 15:54:00 -
[10]
Lasers are certainly the best thing for NPCs without a doubt. However for PvP they are weak, due mainly to hardening and not being able to do anything but em or heat damage.
The tracking /range thing works itself out for the most part.
For me the real stinger (like Jim said) is the ship bonuses. Both for and apoc and arm have diminishing returns. Meaning that they both reduce something so you don't EVER get the full bonus from the ship.
As an example I know myself and many others have energy systems operation 5 already. So when you actually apply the "bonus" it works like this: base recharge == 100 * ENSYSOP .75 == 75 * SHPBONUS .75 == 56.25. So that you don't actually get your full ship bonus just 18.75% for level 5.
Couple that with the fact that amarr ship bonuses actually reduce the effectiveness of cap relays (arguably one of the most used mods in the game) because of this.
The recharge bonus on an apoc should be switched to 5% increase in cap hit points and the armaggedon should have the ROF bonus changed to a damage multiplier bonus instead.
In fact if I recall correctly amarr are the only race to have both battleships have both of their bonuses being diminishing return type.
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Paddyman
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Posted - 2004.02.19 16:06:00 -
[11]
Well ive been testing apoc setups for a while now and have good skills very suited to laser's and i still wouldn't use them on an apoc, apoc's+laser's atm just do not do enough damage for their cap sucking for me to justify using them.
I can do just as comparable damage with other weapons without the need to make my ship defenceless from running out of cap.
In fact to make a setup with laser's so i dont run out of cap fast means lowering my damage output so much that i done MORE damage with other weapon loadouts then this setup done.
Against NPC they are very good but for pvp lasers aint what they should be.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.19 16:12:00 -
[12]
the lasers r fine...
"We brake for nobody"
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Paddyman
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:04:00 -
[13]
Quote:
the lasers r fine...
paddyman>Oh no there not.
Admiral Iceblock> Oh yes they are
paddyman>Oh no there not.
This is why you should at least try add substance to your opinion. It also helps the disscusion,
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Belzavior
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:29:00 -
[14]
I gotta agree with original poster.
Lasers take a ton of cap and pwrgrid. They are only very affective against rookie pvpers whom don't have hardeners.
They don't require ammo, but they do require VERY expensive crystals.
Either cap req should be lowered somewhat or they should do more damage to justify the cap use. They should be hardhitting but not sustainable for long conflicts. Or at least thats my opinion.
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OmegaPsycho
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:45:00 -
[15]
Edited by: OmegaPsycho on 19/02/2004 17:47:38
i think the Laser do need a cap reduction alittle. But they sure don't need a boost in DMG Modifier. My buddy just the ather night was hitting from 40km with multi C with 700+ hits very random aswell. its all in your skills and what ship your flying. if your skills r not up then your hits won't be either
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.19 17:52:00 -
[16]
Cap reduction (by a slight amount) and dmg / rof bonus on the armageddon.
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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2004.02.19 18:08:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Cap reduction (by a slight amount) and dmg / rof bonus on the armageddon.
Wouldn't that just be lovely? Compensate for the lack of options available on this beauty of a beast ;)
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.19 18:13:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 19/02/2004 18:13:45
there is nothing wrong with the lasers itself, more wrong with the ship or the user if he thinks he can run 6 tachyons non-stop! the dmg of tachyons is just fine, the rof is just fine... and adding a dmg bonus on a arma? why? u want the "reduction in cap usage" gone? lets see how much the lasers sucks ur cap then...
"We brake for nobody"
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Teeth
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Posted - 2004.02.19 20:19:00 -
[19]
I think they do eat too much cap. More damage would be unbalanced though.
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Cao Cao
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Posted - 2004.02.19 21:19:00 -
[20]
Admiral TrollBlock,
If you notice I said lasers should have a slight cap reduction as well . . . this would compensate for the arma losing its cap reduction bonus.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.19 21:29:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 19/02/2004 21:31:43
as Teeth said "More damage would be unbalanced though."
and tachyons is balanced, they do good dmg, and use enough cap... if u think they drain to much cap, get ur skills higher...
"We brake for nobody"
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2004.02.19 21:31:00 -
[22]
Lasers are fine.
Lasers are the ONLY reason the vast majority of pvp'ers waste 2 slots on shield hardeners.
Not many other guns make you use 2 mid-slots
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Lipton
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Posted - 2004.02.19 21:54:00 -
[23]
Well... Iceblock...
I got all those skills maxed...
But then again, I aint "teh r0x0r" 
Cap reduction sounds like a good choice, but really, (I havent checked up on this properly though) dont all battle ships have a damage bonus in one way or the other XEPT the amarrians...?
Mega: No need to even Mention
Tempest: Same as above
Raven: R.O.F Bonus, if i aint mistaking(?)
Apoc: errrrmmm...
Again, a bit unfair, i know, as the Arma has a r.o.f bonus... But the Apoc is supposed to be a damage dealing beast, no?
Well, it aint...
No sane person would mount more than 4 Tachy's on a Apoc and they aint really all that good, tend to glance a lot and so on...
And wtf is up with the Apoc having 8!!! turret slots? Wtf u gonna fill the rest 4 with? Frigate weps?
Naaaw... I'll have to agree with "teh" original poster.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.19 22:00:00 -
[24]
Quote:
Well... Iceblock...
I got all those skills maxed...
But then again, I aint "teh r0x0r"
exactly! :P
Quote:
Cap reduction sounds like a good choice, but really, (I havent checked up on this properly though) dont all battle ships have a damage bonus in one way or the other XEPT the amarrians...?
Mega: No need to even Mention
Tempest: Same as above
Raven: R.O.F Bonus, if i aint mistaking(?)
Apoc: errrrmmm...
the apoc gets a capacitor recharge rate bonus, and that bonus rocks...
Quote:
Again, a bit unfair, i know, as the Arma has a r.o.f bonus... But the Apoc is supposed to be a damage dealing beast, no?
Well, it aint...
No sane person would mount more than 4 Tachy's on a Apoc and they aint really all that good, tend to glance a lot and so on...
they do good damage and u can run them for a very long time while boosting shields...
Quote:
And wtf is up with the Apoc having 8!!! turret slots? Wtf u gonna fill the rest 4 with? Frigate weps?
Naaaw... I'll have to agree with "teh" original poster.
lots of things, launchers, cap neutrilizers etc...
"We brake for nobody"
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ProphetGuru
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Posted - 2004.02.19 22:01:00 -
[25]
Quote:
And wtf is up with the Apoc having 8!!! turret slots? Wtf u gonna fill the rest 4 with? Frigate weps?
Ummm
8 turrets is one of the main things that sets this ship apart from others.
btw, there are 2 launcher slots..... just cuz it will take 8 don't mean you have to run 8.
Lasers, and the apoc in general, are fine. The only ship that needs a bonus adjustment are the caldari ones imho.
Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
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Soren
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Posted - 2004.02.19 22:21:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Soren on 19/02/2004 22:23:18
Quote:
The most common argument used as a "pro" for lasers is that they don't require ammo. However, since a single large crystal costs more to produce than a lifetime of AM ammo for a Megathron I really see that as more of a "con".
I don't know if that's what you are referring to solely, Jim, but at least that argument isn't really valid. :/
And how about missle users? I can't believe Jim didn't bring it up, but a large crystal costs the same as a fight for a raven. You can't complain about the price of crystals when there's ammo that costs much more, and the advantages crystals have(no reload, fast swap).
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Stoop
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Posted - 2004.02.19 22:38:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Stoop on 19/02/2004 22:41:49
Very expensive crystals? A L multi crystal is ~500k.
If you are flying a 100mil battleship and an extra 500k bothers then something is seriously wrong with you.
I'd pay 1mil (2 different ammos) per gun extra to never have to use ammo, reload, and be able to switch to a different range instalty. (And as someoen has pointed out, missles arent free either)
Lasers use too much cap: Your ships fix this and lasers are very useable on amarr ships. Projectiles have a very low rof but I'll be damned, the tempest has bonuses for that. The nuetron blasters need a good tracking rate.. hmm megatrthron provides that. Raven is a missle boat? Ooh ooh it gets a Rof on missles. Do you see the pattern here. CCP wants weapons to not be entirely race specific, but for each race to have a prefered one. (not all ship bonuses are perfect, but will get sorted soon TM)
Lasers use too much powergrid: Have you ever checked the powergrids of a Amarr ship vs other ships?
Edit:
Oh and saying that people using something to counter a specific weapon type means that it was nerfed? Thats the most lame pathetic thing I have ever heard.
"OMLord CCP! People are stayign away from my uber gank megathron and I am not able to get in close range. They are planning ahead and thwarting my style. Make nuetrons blastesr have 40k optimal and 60k fall off pls!"
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2004.02.19 23:40:00 -
[28]
"No sane person would mount more than 4 Tachy's on a Apoc and they aint really all that good, tend to glance a lot and so on...
And wtf is up with the Apoc having 8!!! turret slots? Wtf u gonna fill the rest 4 with? Frigate weps?"
... Maybe the remaining slots are for those insane people who prefer to put 8 large laser turrets rather than just 4 tachyons. :s
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Slithereen
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Posted - 2004.02.20 00:04:00 -
[29]
Quote:
Cap reduction (by a slight amount) and dmg / rof bonus on the armageddon.
Perhaps you meant for the Apoc. The Armaggedon does have an ROF bonus.
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Lipton
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Posted - 2004.02.20 00:22:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Lipton on 20/02/2004 00:32:04
Edited by: Lipton on 20/02/2004 00:27:58
Quote:
Quote:
And wtf is up with the Apoc having 8!!! turret slots? Wtf u gonna fill the rest 4 with? Frigate weps?
Ummm
8 turrets is one of the main things that sets this ship apart from others.
btw, there are 2 launcher slots..... just cuz it will take 8 don't mean you have to run 8.
Lasers, and the apoc in general, are fine. The only ship that needs a bonus adjustment are the caldari ones imho.
That was kinda teh Joke
Edit: And oh, btw... This "dont nerf this, nerf that" war is prolly gonna go on forever... 
If we all were happy with the way it was, it really wouldnt be a challenge.
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