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Math: Gift from God or Work of Man?

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Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:38:00 - [31] Originally by: Starfired Who said math was perfect in the first place? Math is by nature imperfect. The nature of the number 9 is capable of returning your original number. 10-9 = 1 "your original number /10". 1-.9 = 1 "your original number /100". .1-.09 = .01 "your original number /1000", always returning 1/10th your original number only to be divided by 9 again to return your original number. 3^2 = 9 so it also suffers from the same inherrant flaw. Basically if math is so perfect why do we have a flaw that results in repeating numbers? Not to mention Pi and e. They can't even be fully expressed by our own numeric system. Such a fail. That doesn't really make sense. How does anything regarding repeating numbers resulting from random calculations result in math being imperfect? Originally by: Death Kill What all knowing compendium states that it takes 'x' amount of years for a religion to reach anywhere? If you look at the historical progression of religions it tends to be a general trend. Unfortunately there aren't enough major religions in the world for this to be verified statistically. Originally by: Death Kill The fanatic who slit the throat of Theo Van Gogh thought what he was doing was right. To say that 'oh they just need a few hundred years' is sticking your head in the sand. Back in medival times they didnt have modren science, they thought the sun evolved around the earth. That people in the year 2007 blindly follow bigoted norms fdating back to the bronzeage just shows how redicilously ignorant and dangerous they are. I think it's a little more complex than that - modern science may actually be a destabilizing factor when it comes to Religion (or medieval Christianity for that matter) because it directly contradicts the legitimacy of some of their beliefs, putting them at odds with much of the world. But I'm no expert. ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Starfired	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:45:00 - [32] Edited by: Starfired on 04/10/2007 14:46:38 Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Starfired Who said math was perfect in the first place? Math is by nature imperfect. The nature of the number 9 is capable of returning your original number. 10-9 = 1 "your original number /10". 1-.9 = 1 "your original number /100". .1-.09 = .01 "your original number /1000", always returning 1/10th your original number only to be divided by 9 again to return your original number. 3^2 = 9 so it also suffers from the same inherrant flaw. Basically if math is so perfect why do we have a flaw that results in repeating numbers? Not to mention Pi and e. They can't even be fully expressed by our own numeric system. Such a fail. That doesn't really make sense. How does anything regarding repeating numbers resulting from random calculations result in math being imperfect? Repeating numbers are a flaw in the numeric system itself. Caused by the abillity of a certain number to return the original number /10, only to have that be divided and return 1/10th that number, only to have that be divided.... Repeating numbers are a flaw in our mathmatical system itself. Putting that _ above the number makes it conceptually sound, but impossible to do perfect math with it. The number 9 is inherrently flawed. I also stated that Pi & e have definate values, it's just impossible to perfectly express them with our current decimal system. Not to mention imaginary numbers 1/ negative number. Math comes close, but is not perfct.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:49:00 - [33] Originally by: Starfired [ Repeating numbers are a flaw in the numeric system itself. Caused by the abillity of a certain number to return the original number /10, only to have that be divided and return 1/10th that number, only to have that be divided.... Repeating numbers are a flaw in our mathmatical system itself. Putting that _ above the number makes it conceptually sound, but impossible to do perfect math with it. The number 9 is inherrently flawed. So how is that a flaw with the concept of mathematics itself and not just our base 10 number system? Quote: I also stated that Pi & e have definate values, it's just impossible to perfectly express them with our current decimal system. Not to mention imaginary numbers 1/ negative number. Math comes close, but is not perfct. I still think this is a flaw with our understanding of mathematics, not mathematics itself. ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:50:00 - [34] Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 14:33:55 Originally by: Cornucopian It's all a sham, a commercial venture stemming back to the pagan times when shamans sold spiritual currency to the tribes to earn themselves food Massive fail. Suicide bombers doesnt blow themselves up because they seek comercial opertunities, they do it because of the promise of rewards in the afterlife. The problem with religion is that people belive life here on earth is just the beginning of the 'real' life in heaven (or hell) When people kill in the name of religion they do it because they belive they have god on their side, and that their actions is just. The fanatic who slit the throat of Theo Van Gogh thought what he was doing was right. To say that 'oh they just need a few hundred years' is sticking your head in the sand. Back in medival times they didnt have modren science, they thought the sun evolved around the earth. That people in the year 2007 blindly follow bigoted norms fdating back to the bronzeage just shows how redicilously ignorant and dangerous they are. And finally, religons are different. You cannot compare Islam whows prophet was a bloodthirsty warlord with Christianity whos prophet was a hippie telling people to become mindless and spineless sheep. While I can understand your sweeping generalization, Mohammed wasn't a bloodthirsty warlord, and I hardly think you can extrapolate mindless and spineless sheep from the words of Jesus. What followers do with words and idolatry is one thing, the original message is another. Religious belief is no more dangerous than political ideology, nationalistic fervour or immoral science. Ignorance exists in all areas, as does enlightened thought. Science don't forget has developed the bomb, chemical weapons and GM crops, to name a few
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 14:59:00 - [35] Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 14:59:48 Originally by: Cornucopian its the people who RUN the religion that do it for commerical gain, power, megalomania, etc. How do you know they are not just being pius, have they told you? How can you claim that the religious leaders who tell people to kill themselves in the name of religon doesnt have as strong faith as their followers. Its a bold claim you present. Call to arms!!!
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:01:00 - [36] Edited by: Cornucopian on 04/10/2007 15:03:05 Originally by: Locus Bey Originally by: Death Kill Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 14:33:55 Originally by: Cornucopian It's all a sham, a commercial venture stemming back to the pagan times when shamans sold spiritual currency to the tribes to earn themselves food Massive fail. Suicide bombers doesnt blow themselves up because they seek comercial opertunities, they do it because of the promise of rewards in the afterlife. The problem with religion is that people belive life here on earth is just the beginning of the 'real' life in heaven (or hell) When people kill in the name of religion they do it because they belive they have god on their side, and that their actions is just. The fanatic who slit the throat of Theo Van Gogh thought what he was doing was right. To say that 'oh they just need a few hundred years' is sticking your head in the sand. Back in medival times they didnt have modren science, they thought the sun evolved around the earth. That people in the year 2007 blindly follow bigoted norms fdating back to the bronzeage just shows how redicilously ignorant and dangerous they are. And finally, religons are different. You cannot compare Islam whows prophet was a bloodthirsty warlord with Christianity whos prophet was a hippie telling people to become mindless and spineless sheep. While I can understand your sweeping generalization, Mohammed wasn't a bloodthirsty warlord, and I hardly think you can extrapolate mindless and spineless sheep from the words of Jesus. What followers do with words and idolatry is one thing, the original message is another. Religious belief is no more dangerous than political ideology, nationalistic fervour or immoral science. Ignorance exists in all areas, as does enlightened thought. Science don't forget has developed the bomb, chemical weapons and GM crops, to name a few your argument fails epically the moment you lump in GM crops with nukes. now THAT is ignorant. What is immoral about GM crops? What is immoral about stemcell research? its so extremely ****** to decry such things...... yeah lets ban probably the only way to cure the genetic diseases, lets WILLINGLY limit our own knowledge of DNA..... lets go back to the caves and light a fire. It's pathetic. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by:** Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:03:00 - [37] Edited by: Death Kill on 04/10/2007 15:04:34 Originally by: Locus Bey While I can understand your sweeping generalization, Mohammed wasn't a bloodthirsty warlord, and I hardly think you can extrapolate mindless and spineless sheep from the words of Jesus. What followers do with words and idolatry is one thing, the original message is another. Muhammed killed his way into power, and he killed everyone that stood in his way. The hisytory is there for you to look up if you think I'm wrong. Jesus taught you that you are nothing without him, and that you should shrivel up like a worthless worm and hope for the best when the end of days come. Quote: Religious belief is no more dangerous than political ideology, nationalistic fervour or immoral science. Ignorance exists in all areas, as does enlightened thought. Science don't forget has developed the bomb, chemical weapons and GM crops, to name a few Yes religious belief is a lot more dangerous. If you are conveniced that you are good and others are bad then you got a dangerous situation. A non beliver would be able to change his or her mind based on what they see or hear but thats not an option for a beliver because they follow not their own free will but dangerous ideals froma lost era printed in stone. Call to arms!!!
Cornucopian Gallente Orias Fringe Enterprises United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:05:00 - [38] Originally by: Death Kill Originally by: Locus Bey While I can understand your sweeping generalization, Mohammed wasn't a bloodthirsty warlord, and I hardly think you can extrapolate mindless and spineless sheep from the words of Jesus. What followers do with words and idolatry is one thing, the original message is another. Muhammed killed his way into power, and he killed everyone that stood in his way. The hisytory is there for you to look up if you think I'm wrong. Jesus taught you that you are nothing without him, and that you should shrivel up like a worthless worm and hope for the best when the end of days come. Quote: Religious belief is no more dangerous than political ideology, nationalistic fervour or immoral science. Ignorance exists in all areas, as does enlightened thought. Science don't forget has developed the bomb, chemical weapons and GM crops, to name a few Yes religious belief is a lot more dangerous. If you are conveniced that you are good and others are bad then you got a dangerous situation. A non beliver would be able to change his or her mind based on what they see or hear but thats not an ooption for a beliver because they follow not their own free will but dangerous ideals froma lost era. what DK is trying to say is that even political radicals, and nationalist morons base themselves off a rational mindset (a severely warped one, agreed). Religious fanatics do not, they base themselves on the incorruptable word of god, i.e. that they are right no matter what. ----------------------------------------------- "post with your main. delete your alt, you sad little exploiting metagamer." Originally by: Royaldo complete win by Cornucopian!
Starfired	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:10:00 - [39] Edited by: Starfired on 04/10/2007 15:16:12 Originally by: Tarminic I still think this is a flaw with our understanding of mathematics, not mathematics itself. Math is just a way of comparing stuff against the known. 1 means nothing. Unless you say 1 apple because you're comparing the number 1 to an apple. A 1 foot or meter is a known concept, a length. 1KG is a known concept, litterally being compared to an actual object held in a secure "air-tight" chamber in england. As of right now Math is a human concept to compare 2 knowns, but by it's nature you have to compare it to a known before it becomes information rather then raw data. Where we don't have a known we invent one. You can argue it was given to us by an all powerful god "a flawed way at that", but it will always be a human concept. 32, 57, 24, 45. It has no meaning unless I tell you it's how many miles "a human concept/known amount" a vehical can go with a gallon "also a human concept/known amount". If you want to look deeper if you went 30 feet one way, took a right turn & went 40 feet one could argue you traveled 70 feet. In reality you're only 50 feet away from where you started. Notice that EVERY single time I use these numbers I'm comparing it to a known human constant. Math = human concept. Open your mind and realize EVERYTHING you know is just a perception and comparisons. A fly is big to a bacteria, a rat is big to a fly, a dog is big to a rat, a person is big to a dog, an elephant is big to a person, a mountain is big to an elephant, the world is big to a mountain, the sun is big to the world, the solar system is big to the sun, the andromeda galaxy is big to our solar system, the milky way is big compared to Andromeda, the known universe is big to the Milky way, the universe as a whole is big to the known universe, space/time/dimensions "all of them" is big compared to our universe... EVERYTHING, there is a human concept with a human definition, based on human concepts with a human defination, based on human concepts...
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:13:00 - [40] what ******s rational is a far better rationalism than the religious fanatic? you think it takes more brains to be a pol pot than a spanish inquisitor? the god of science and ratiomalism has as many falabilities as the god of whoever. it's what people take from and do with each that is the only relevance.

Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:16:00 - [41] as to GM, GM are the worst of the worst, opportunistic, greedy, immoral *******. you can say bye bye to diversity should they get a further stranglehold, you can see an increase in indebtedness for those poorer countries, and you can see a rise in natures backlash and a decline in human health.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:19:00 - [42] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 04/10/2007 15:25:10 why are there religions in the first place? it is because of this questions like : who am i ? wtf am i doing on this planet located in the outer rim of the galaxy ? am i just a being which dies after a certain lifspan and thats it ? what is the nature of my mind? there are answers to that questions but u cant find answer outside u can find only inside it is not in books it is the most closely guarded secret so far yet so near im not buddhist ... im not zen or whatever else there is now you want to get truth then rip the religions all of the blablabla uncover all then u see the essence goin through all and then it starts getting interesting very very interesting and then wisdom starts getting from within yourself by practical application of the science of the self meditation.... science prooved it to be very healthy ......it is synchronating right and left brain hemispheres...........our society is very left brain orientated(90% !!)....... now this should have shaken even the most sleepy brainwashed f++ls in here
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:24:00 - [43] Edited by: Tarminic on 04/10/2007 15:25:12 Originally by: Starfired Edited by: Starfired on 04/10/2007 15:16:12 Originally by: Tarminic I still think this is a flaw with our understanding of mathematics, not mathematics itself. Stuff I both agree and disagree. I believe that while our measurement of quantifiable substances is completely subjective, the fact that quantities can be compared/added/subtracted is not. Otherwise mathematical proofs used in advanced physics and quantum mechanics would not be true. Humans didn't just decide that 1+1=2 instead of 3. We just decided to use the "1," "+," "=," "2," and "3" symbols for it. Originally by: Locus Bey the god of science and ratiomalism has as many falabilities as the god of whoever. it's what people take from and do with each that is the only relevance. Er...science doesn't have a god. Science, if done properly, is pretty damn accurate and the best known method for understanding the world around us. People who use science for political ends are different than those preaching a religion, because religions have true believers. A corrupt scientist knows he's manipulating his data or hiding the truth. EDIT: Originally by: Cornucopian your argument fails epically the moment you lump in GM crops with nukes. now THAT is ignorant. What is immoral about GM crops? What is immoral about stemcell research? its so extremely ****** to decry such things...... yeah lets ban probably the only way to cure the genetic diseases, lets WILLINGLY limit our own knowledge of DNA..... lets go back to the caves and light a fire. It's pathetic. Wait a minute, yeah! WTF does genetically modified crops have anything to do with any kind of morality? ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You** Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Starfired	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:28:00 - [44] Edited by: Starfired on 04/10/2007 15:28:46 Originally by: Tarminic People who use science for political ends are different than those preaching a religion, because religions have true believers. A corrupt scientist knows he's manipulating his data or hiding the truth. Sorry, but i just have to point this out as the key word here.
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:32:00 - [45] To being, here is a picture simple enough for a brainwashed goer to that school to understand. Elegant yet simple. I agree with previous poster - numbers are a human creation, the understanding of quantifying and extrapolation is mans greatest accomplishment. Saying some hypothetical person more important gave it to you, or Newton degrades the value of these people's genius. A quote I can't remember who said or where, but it can be interpreted how you want. "God created the Dinosaurs - god destroyed the Dinosaurs" "God created man - man destroyed god and made his own future". I see this as the understanding and leaving of human ignorance to recognise it's own worth, not arrogance that we are gods, but that what has happened to humanity is caused by humanitu and not a god. Thankyou for reading, I will try to stop these monolouges in future. Originally by: CCP Morpheus Post with your alt.
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:34:00 - [46] Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 04/10/2007 15:25:12 Originally by: Starfired Edited by: Starfired on 04/10/2007 15:16:12 Originally by: Tarminic I still think this is a flaw with our understanding of mathematics, not mathematics itself. Stuff I both agree and disagree. I believe that while our measurement of quantifiable substances is completely subjective, the fact that quantities can be compared/added/subtracted is not. Otherwise mathematical proofs used in advanced physics and quantum mechanics would not be true. Humans didn't just decide that 1+1=2 instead of 3. We just decided to use the "1," "+," "=," "2," and "3" symbols for it. Originally by: Locus Bey the god of science and ratiomalism has as many falabilities as the god of whoever. it's what people take from and do with each that is the only relevance. Er...science doesn't have a god. Science, if done properly, is pretty damn accurate and the best known method for understanding the world around us. People who use science for political ends are different than those preaching a religion, because religions have true believers. A corrupt scientist knows he's manipulating his data or hiding the truth. EDIT: Originally by: Cornucopian your argument fails epically the moment you lump in GM crops with nukes. now THAT is ignorant. What is immoral about GM crops? What is immoral about stemcell research? its so extremely ******** to decry such things...... yeah lets ban probably the only way to cure the genetic diseases, lets WILLINGLY limit our own knowledge of DNA..... lets go back to the caves and light a fire. It's pathetic. Wait a minute, yeah! WTF does genetically modified crops have anything to do with any kind of morality? science as a god, err, its an expression referring to what people put their faith in. science doesn't have true believers? what you don't think the religious fanatic is is not measured and cunning in his/her manipulation? this whole preposterous notion that 'religious fanatics' are blind sheep is both suprising, in that you people equate such a simplicity to it, and laughable. as to the morality of GM crops, do I really have to explain myself again?
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:38:00 - [47] Originally by: Locus Boy science as a god, err, its an expression referring to what people put their faith in. science doesn't have true believers? People don't really put faith in science itself, any more than people put faith in the quadratic equation- you have to put faith in the people doing the science. The scientific method needs no faith, it's only a proven technique. You have to believe that the people performing the experiments are doing so properly and without intent of manipulating the results. Quote: as to the morality of GM crops, do I really have to explain myself again? Yes! Or at least point me at the post where you explained your reasoning. ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Starfired	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:41:00 - [48] I'd like to state that this post has stayed constructive reguardless of opposing viewpoints. Good job, and keep it up.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:41:00 - [49] wow u really all are deep asleep stuck in your own thoughts
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:47:00 - [50] Originally by: LUH 3471 wow u really all are deep asleep stuck in your own thoughts Or maybe we're using logical reasoning and you're just nuts? ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.

hattifnatt Gallente The Movement	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:47:00 - [51] Math is a gift from jesus cause he loves us! LOL Originally by: Nicholas Barker i tackled somebody in the middle of nowhere, and told them i wouldn't leave untill they stripped on web cam. Who wants the video?
Starfired	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:49:00 - [52] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: LUH 3471 wow u really all are deep asleep stuck in your own thoughts Or maybe we're using logical reasoning and you're just nuts? I second the "you're just nuts" motion. At least everyone else in this thread so far as actually made an attempt to explain their side without slandering the other side. What have you added to this thread LUH?
Kirjava Lothian Quay Industries Zzz	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:49:00 - [53] Originally by: hattifnatt Math is a gift from jesus cause he loves us! LOL I beleive Pythagoras would be puzzled by this statement Originally by: CCP Morpheus Post with your alt.
Locus Bey Gallente Qalandar	Posted - 2007.10.04 15:57:00 - [54] Originally by: Tarminic Originally by: Locus Boy science as a god, err, its an expression referring to what people put their faith in. science doesn't have true believers? People don't really put faith in science itself, any more than people put faith in the quadratic equation- you have to put faith in the people doing the science. The scientific method needs no faith, it's only a proven technique. You have to believe that the people performing the experiments are doing so properly and without intent of manipulating the results. Quote: as to the morality of GM crops, do I really have to explain myself again? Yes! Or at least point me at the post where you explained your reasoning. science as a god, err, its an expression referring to what people put their faith in. science doesn't have true believers? People don't really put faith in science itself, any more than people put faith in the quadratic equation- you have to put faith in the people doing the science. The scientific method needs no faith, it's only a proven technique. You have to believe that the people performing the experiments are doing so properly and without intent of manipulating the results. Quote: as to the morality of GM crops, do I really have to explain myself again? Yes! Or at least point me at the post where you explained your reasoning. Faith in science, proven technique, believe...horses for courses. What I'm getting at is we in this age put our faith in science, in much the same way we put our faith in God. We believe it will solve many ills and has the answers. We believe it is a superior way of looking at things. We believe in the most part that science has our best interests at heart, and is pursued morally. We have and do do the same thing with political ideology and religion. It is the overriding belief in science as the rationalistic system, that some how accords with an idea that we are better more rational and moral people than in the past I find ludicrous. GM for example is hell bent on gaining a monopoly on patenting everything from pigs to plants, so that everyone pays and uses only GM products. If you look at the effect this will have on producers both small and large it is not good. The ramifications for poorer nations, eg those in Africa, is just another twist in indebtedness to the Western world. Look up what happens with trials of GM crops in the US and Australia when the GM crops contaminate neighbouring farms, and tell me that is not an indication of things to come and their ruthlessness. What's more the effect on biodiversity is not going to be a good one. While the argument put forward that GM is able to engineer sturdier, area specific crops, and how this will benefit us, the other side of its impact on diversity and the land long term is not a promising one. Here is science at play, like it does in the pharmaceutical industry, concerned with profit over benefit.
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.10.04 16:03:00 - [55] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 04/10/2007 16:05:02 pythagoras knew the answer to the riddle of the sphinx plato did the oracle of delphi did buddhism does some egyptians did some mayas did yogis do magicians do alchemists do veltics did the pope doesnt know and i presented it to you in my post the answer of how to solve all your questions the jewel is in you
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 16:13:00 - [56] Originally by: LUH 3471 why dont you speak in sentences and address our arguments ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Tarminic Black Flame Industries	Posted - 2007.10.04 16:16:00 - [57] Originally by: Locus Bey Faith in science, proven technique, believe...horses for courses. What I'm getting at is we in this age put our faith in science, in much the same way we put our faith in God. We believe it will solve many ills and has the answers. We believe it is a superior way of looking at things. We believe in the most part that science has our best interests at heart, and is pursued morally. If you're referring to science in general, than I agree. Without science we wouldn't have the vast majority of technology or medicine developed in the past 500 years. Quote: GM for example is hell bent on gaining a monopoly on patenting everything from pigs to plants, so that everyone pays and uses only GM products. If you look at the effect this will have on producers both small and large it is not good. The ramifications for poorer nations, eg those in Africa, is just another twist in indebtedness to the Western world. Look up what happens with trials of GM crops in the US and Australia when the GM crops contaminate neighbouring farms, and tell me that is not an indication of things to come and their ruthlessness. What's more the effect on biodiversity is not going to be a good one. While the argument put forward that GM is able to engineer sturdier, area specific crops, and how this will benefit us, the other side of its impact on diversity and the land long term is not a promising one. Here is science at play, like it does in the pharmaceutical industry, concerned with profit over benefit. But GM does not reflect upon science as a whole. GM is a company seeking to increase it's profits by whatever means it deems prudent. They are not Science's Only Begotten Son, and it's faulty logic to imply anything about science as a whole from GM's actions. ------------ Whiners - Unite! \| Posting and You Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist.
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 16:42:00 - [58] Originally by: Locus Bey the god of science and ratiomalism See. You dont even know what you are talking about. Atheism isnt a dogma, its a way of thought. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 16:44:00 - [59] Originally by: Locus Bey People don't really put faith in science itself science isnt about faith. Religious people have faith, science is about facts. Quote: What I'm getting at is we in this age put our faith in science, in much the same way we put our faith in God. Thats the worst thing I have ever heard. Call to arms!!!
Death Kill Caldari direkte	Posted - 2007.10.04 17:03:00 - [60] Aye it was brilliant <3 Call to arms!!!



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