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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:20:00 -
[1]
well its been a while since i have made a rant about the morality of having defender missiles on almost every single rat over a cruiser, this of cause effecting 1 race, that being caldari, so in reality not only does caldari dish out the least amount of damage for ships, we also get owned by defender missiles, 2-3 defender missiles, thats up to 50% off our all ready rubbish dps... so i would think its only fair that each rat should carry tracking disrupts and other anti gun/anti drone defences if they insist on carrying defenders.
hey.. its only fair.
/me puts on flame proof suit
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:22:00 -
[2]
Some rats do have tracking disrupters, actually. And ECM Jammers, and Sensor Dampeners. all those can be directly circumvented by FoF missiles, none of those can be directly circumvented by turrets.
Please do your homework before you post.
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Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You
Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Daelorn
State War Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:24:00 -
[3]
Rats should be removed from the game tbh
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:25:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Tarminic
Some rats do have tracking disrupters, actually. And ECM Jammers, and Sensor Dampeners. all those can be directly circumvented by FoF missiles, none of those can be directly circumvented by turrets.
Please do your homework before you post.
yes but your forgetting, dampeners/ecm's effect everyone, who gets affected by defender missiles effect? caldari!
and only 1 race use tracking disruptor's if my memory serves me correctly yet every race uses defender missiles
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:29:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Daelorn
Rats should be removed from the game tbh
rats being looked over and changed to suit current game conditions that arnt from 2003 would be a better way to go of cause back in the day when missiles where ridiculously powerful uber wtfpwnmomisslies yes that would be justified but not now
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:30:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Skynet91
yes but your forgetting, dampeners/ecm's effect everyone
Except that Caldari, using FoF missiles, negate the effect of dampeners and ECM. Any other race interested in doing so must sacrifice slots used for tanking for ECCM or Sensor Boosters.
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Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You
Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:33:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Skynet91
yes but your forgetting, dampeners/ecm's effect everyone
Except that Caldari, using FoF missiles, negate the effect of dampeners and ECM. Any other race interested in doing so must sacrifice slots used for tanking for ECCM or Sensor Boosters.
LOL you think fof's are practical in a mission situation??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL try having 50 targets in a room and then using defender missiles :P not only do they get a damage penalty, they get taken out the same by defenders, and they change targets every shot.... stop being silly, fof's are good for nothing, they are barely useful in pvp specially when you have a small logistics ship *cough*eve tourney*cough*
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Tarminic
Black Flame Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:37:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Skynet91
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Skynet91
yes but your forgetting, dampeners/ecm's effect everyone
Except that Caldari, using FoF missiles, negate the effect of dampeners and ECM. Any other race interested in doing so must sacrifice slots used for tanking for ECCM or Sensor Boosters.
LOL you think fof's are practical in a mission situation??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL try having 50 targets in a room and then using defender missiles :P not only do they get a damage penalty, they get taken out the same by defenders, and they change targets every shot.... stop being silly, fof's are good for nothing, they are barely useful in pvp specially when you have a small logistics ship *cough*eve tourney*cough*
In that case, should we call it even and just remove any type of ECM or defensive measures from all NPC rats.
Then again, there may be a Caldari battleship that doesn't use missiles. Though I'm sure that would have a horrible effect on your ISK/hour ratio. 
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Whiners - Unite! | Posting and You
Tarminic - Forum Warfare Specialist. |
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:39:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Akita T on 05/10/2007 05:41:29
Skynet, you're being stupid.
I can finish more than half of the L4s almost completely AFK using Hydras on my Drake.
I just need to be there to restart the launchers after they reload.
Besides, at L5 FoF skill, FoFs no longer have any DAMAGE penality compared to normals, just a slight sig penality, which is only relevant againt frig-sized targets.
_
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:41:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Skynet91
Originally by: Tarminic
Originally by: Skynet91
yes but your forgetting, dampeners/ecm's effect everyone
Except that Caldari, using FoF missiles, negate the effect of dampeners and ECM. Any other race interested in doing so must sacrifice slots used for tanking for ECCM or Sensor Boosters.
LOL you think fof's are practical in a mission situation??? LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL try having 50 targets in a room and then using defender missiles :P not only do they get a damage penalty, they get taken out the same by defenders, and they change targets every shot.... stop being silly, fof's are good for nothing, they are barely useful in pvp specially when you have a small logistics ship *cough*eve tourney*cough*
In that case, should we call it even and just remove any type of ECM or defensive measures from all NPC rats.
Then again, there may be a Caldari battleship that doesn't use missiles. Though I'm sure that would have a horrible effect on your ISK/hour ratio.
i like that idea about removing all ecm/defenders thats a great idea, beleive it or not caldari doenst ussualy focus on gun skills till we have skills to use the 90% of ships that dont use guns :P
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Apple Blossom
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:42:00 -
[11]
Agree with the OP.
Missile boats clearly need a boost in PvE. 
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Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar
Raddick Explorations
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:43:00 -
[12]
I would say missiles are absolutely fine, as I can complete any level 4 mission in a torp Raven with Caldari BS III, and Torpedoes II.
By comparison, if I were to take a Maelstrom, I need Minmatar BS IV, and Large Projectiles IV (similar tanking skills for both).
However my 6 weapon Raven would complete the lvl 4 far quicker than my 8 turret BS (using 1400mm cannons).
Beyond that, my Raven does the same dps from 0k out to (at the time) 72k (defenders not withstanding). By Comparison, my Maelstrom's guns are only effective against cruisers more than 20k away, and frigates more than 30k away. Of course under these ranges I have to use drones (5 mediums to be exact) which also conveniently fit into a Raven's drone bay, making it even there. Admittedly the Maelstrom can carry 2 flights of mediums and the Raven a flight of mediums and a flight of smalls, bur if your getting drones popped in missions, you are doing it wrong.
So tell me, why do rats need disruptors and smartbombs
Akkarin
Hopefully the mods won't play with this one
<3 - Immy
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Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:43:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Akita T
Edited by: Akita T on 05/10/2007 05:41:29
Skynet, you're being stupid.
I can finish more than half of the L4s almost completely AFK using Hydras on my Drake.
I just need to be there to restart the launchers after they reload.
Besides, at L5 FoF skill, FoFs no longer have any DAMAGE penality compared to normals, just a slight sig penality, which is only relevant againt frig-sized targets.
True. Tried that one in my domi, didn't work out too well...
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Akita T
Skynet, you're being stupid.
I can finish more than half of the L4s almost completely AFK using Hydras on my Drake.
I just need to be there to restart the launchers after they reload.
so can i, point being, my 3mill sp gallente alt that is currently flying a myrmidon gets through a bs allot quicker then my drake/nighthawk, even though i have several times the sp! hence the point of low dps + defenders = stupidly low dps :(, where as heavy drones, with 1mill worth of sp and basic gun skills = uber, secondly, ecm/dampeners/tracing disruptors, only effect the targeted ship whilst defenders go after any missile fired by anyone??? -.-'
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:49:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Akkarin Pagan
I would say missiles are absolutely fine, as I can complete any level 4 mission in a torp Raven with Caldari BS III, and Torpedoes II.
By comparison, if I were to take a Maelstrom, I need Minmatar BS IV, and Large Projectiles IV (similar tanking skills for both).
However my 6 weapon Raven would complete the lvl 4 far quicker than my 8 turret BS (using 1400mm cannons) which brings me to the point of this reply, it wouldnt make a differnce weather their where any defenders ot not because they cant kill a torp/cruise missiles in time.
Beyond that, my Raven does the same dps from 0k out to (at the time) 72k (defenders not withstanding). By Comparison, my Maelstrom's guns are only effective against cruisers more than 20k away, and frigates more than 30k away. Of course under these ranges I have to use drones (5 mediums to be exact) which also conveniently fit into a Raven's drone bay, making it even there. Admittedly the Maelstrom can carry 2 flights of mediums and the Raven a flight of mediums and a flight of smalls, bur if your getting drones popped in missions, you are doing it wrong.
So tell me, why do rats need disruptors and smartbombs
Akkarin
i didnt read most of this post, i stopped when i saw "raven" and "torpedoes", y you ask! well the amount of defenders it takes to kill a torp or a torp/cruise missiles is allot more then is shot out each voly from a rat, this is towards the people in bc's that have to use missiles to finish their level 2/3/4 missions (mostly 4 though because that's where its most annoying)
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:49:00 -
[16]
I can fly all T1 ships and several T2s.
In missions, I either take my heavies Drake or my sentry+meds Dominix.
Both passive shield-tanked (Dominix has a slightly weaker tank but better "reach/damage").
I still prefer the Drake though.
_
Caldari N.V.T.F. is recruiting... |
Laboratus
Gallente
BGG
League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:53:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Skynet91
well its been a while since i have made a rant about the morality of having defender missiles on almost every single rat over a cruiser, this of cause effecting 1 race, that being caldari, so in reality not only does caldari dish out the least amount of damage for ships, we also get owned by defender missiles, 2-3 defender missiles, thats up to 50% off our all ready rubbish dps... so i would think its only fair that each rat should carry tracking disrupts and other anti gun/anti drone defences if they insist on carrying defenders.
hey.. its only fair.
/me puts on flame proof suit
You do realise smart bombs would blow up more missiles than defenders do...
___
P.S.
Post with your main.
Mind control and tin hats |
Allestin Villimar
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:53:00 -
[18]
Can't believe no one's mentioned the fact that missiles can choose their damage type, maximizing their DPS vs any targets, while most gunships can only get 2 at most.
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:58:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Allestin Villimar
Can't believe no one's mentioned the fact that missiles can choose their damage type, maximizing their DPS vs any targets, while most gunships can only get 2 at most.
we're talking missions here, and changing your missile type really doesn't help all that much unfortunately, since the 25% bonus to kin damage and such means that 95% of the time your gonna be using scourge against all mission targets.(imo)
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 05:59:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Laboratus
Originally by: Skynet91
well its been a while since i have made a rant about the morality of having defender missiles on almost every single rat over a cruiser, this of cause effecting 1 race, that being caldari, so in reality not only does caldari dish out the least amount of damage for ships, we also get owned by defender missiles, 2-3 defender missiles, thats up to 50% off our all ready rubbish dps... so i would think its only fair that each rat should carry tracking disrupts and other anti gun/anti drone defences if they insist on carrying defenders.
hey.. its only fair.
/me puts on flame proof suit
You do realise smart bombs would blow up more missiles than defenders do...
that part was more scarcasam then an actual suggestion otherwise rats would be smart bombing each other.... surprised you didn't pick that up -.-'
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Akkarin Pagan
Minmatar
Raddick Explorations
Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:14:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Skynet91
Originally by: Akkarin Pagan
I would say missiles are absolutely fine, as I can complete any level 4 mission in a torp Raven with Caldari BS III, and Torpedoes II.
By comparison, if I were to take a Maelstrom, I need Minmatar BS IV, and Large Projectiles IV (similar tanking skills for both).
However my 6 weapon Raven would complete the lvl 4 far quicker than my 8 turret BS (using 1400mm cannons) which brings me to the point of this reply, it wouldnt make a differnce weather their where any defenders ot not because they cant kill a torp/cruise missiles in time.
Beyond that, my Raven does the same dps from 0k out to (at the time) 72k (defenders not withstanding). By Comparison, my Maelstrom's guns are only effective against cruisers more than 20k away, and frigates more than 30k away. Of course under these ranges I have to use drones (5 mediums to be exact) which also conveniently fit into a Raven's drone bay, making it even there. Admittedly the Maelstrom can carry 2 flights of mediums and the Raven a flight of mediums and a flight of smalls, bur if your getting drones popped in missions, you are doing it wrong.
So tell me, why do rats need disruptors and smartbombs
Akkarin
i didnt read most of this post, i stopped when i saw "raven" and "torpedoes", y you ask! well the amount of defenders it takes to kill a torp or a torp/cruise missiles is allot more then is shot out each voly from a rat, this is towards the people in bc's that have to use missiles to finish their level 2/3/4 missions (mostly 4 though because that's where its most annoying)
You'd be surprised what some of the lvl 4 bosses can do with defenders, Hoborak Moon anyone?) but I digress.
Back in the dim and distant past (before Rev 1.0) the most popular lvl 3 mission ship was the Ferox (with 5 heavy launchers). Personally I preferred the Cyclone, but I'm strange like that. Back then, I don't remember anyone complaining about npc defenders. In fact the only complaints I can ever remember about defenders is that they don't work well enough when players use them.
Defenders are easily circumvented, move closer. Are you seriously telling me that a Drake can't tank a lvl 3 with 5 instead of 6 med slots? I was quite happily tanking lvl 3s with a Cyclone on only 5 slots (BC rank III at the time). I know the cyclone gets boost amount bonus, but I can assure you that 5% per level shield resists isn't to be sniffed at.
As for lvl 4s if you are doing them for isk, then use a Raven, if for fun, then live with it, or cross train guns.
Akkarin
Hopefully the mods won't play with this one
<3 - Immy
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Sheriff Jones
Amarr
Please Enter Password
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:21:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 05/10/2007 06:21:26
Sorry to say but, missiles ain't the Caldari "privilege" whine anymore. you lost that right.
We have Khanid, we demand missile boosts too! 
My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit. |
Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:30:00 -
[23]
could train guns and buy a vulture and have an even better tank with good dps :D or... i could spend the next 36days training bs 5 for the new t2 bs's :D /me wants a blackops scorp >.>
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion
Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.05 06:32:00 -
[24]
Gallente are the only ships that don't care about missiles... hmm, what does that tell us?
---
Join BH-DL |
sableye
principle of motion
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.05 07:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: cal nereus
Gallente are the only ships that don't care about missiles... hmm, what does that tell us?
except tristan, mega (not much though), eris, ares, nemesis, guardian vexor, celestis, lachesis and the azuru
I'm sure there are more too.
Join The Fight With Promo Today |
Cadiz
Caldari
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 07:03:00 -
[26]
Originally by: cal nereus
Gallente are the only ships that don't care about missiles... hmm, what does that tell us?
Hi, Roden ships.
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Director, No Quarter
"There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence." |
Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 07:25:00 -
[27]
Originally by: sableye
Originally by: cal nereus
Gallente are the only ships that don't care about missiles... hmm, what does that tell us?
except tristan, mega (not much though), eris, ares, nemesis, guardian vexor, celestis, lachesis and the azuru
I'm sure there are more too.
all exceptional mission ships that sit out side 10k range and have trouble catching a mwding bs that likes to keep its 50k range
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Zana Kito
Antares Fleet Yards
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:41:00 -
[28]
Think about this carefully for a moment.
If defenders are such a huge issue, why do everyone and their dog run L4 missions in Ravens or Navy Ravens?
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.05 08:59:00 -
[29]
My railguns are useless while tracking disrupted by sanshas, should I whine too?
I don't like BS so I use HAS in lvl 4 missions, ECM hurts (low sensor strength on HAS), should I...
I could find more... Never I heard any of my friends complain about defenders, when an NPC throws too much defenders, they just come at close range or laugh about the isk lost from defenders (no, we're not comparing wasted ammo for everyone when we run missions in group, not at all...).
--
Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
The Vexor Navy Issue is much more fun than the Myrmidon ! |
WisdomLikeSilence
High4Life
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.05 09:31:00 -
[30]
Real men use guns. When they are not being damped. Oh and guns MISS (but mine dont :)
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 12:46:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Zana Kito
Think about this carefully for a moment.
If defenders are such a huge issue, why do everyone and their dog run L4 missions in Ravens or Navy Ravens?
im sorry are you stupid -.-? if you botherd to read previouse replys you would see that the ammount of defenders it takes to destroy a torp or a cruise missiles is like 4 or something for a cruise and 12 for a torp rats dont shoot 4-12 defenders per a salvo thats y people can still use ravens and such with out any troubles at all.
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 12:51:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Eleana Tomelac
My railguns are useless while tracking disrupted by sanshas, should I whine too?
I don't like BS so I use HAS in lvl 4 missions, ECM hurts (low sensor strength on HAS), should I...
I could find more... Never I heard any of my friends complain about defenders, when an NPC throws too much defenders, they just come at close range or laugh about the isk lost from defenders (no, we're not comparing wasted ammo for everyone when we run missions in group, not at all...).
oh no 1 race tracking disrupts you!!! luckly you have 5 heavy drones to do the damage for you think about if every single mission, every single rat above that of a friget, used a tracking disrupter or 3 on you? how anoyed would that make you... oh wait your drones do more damage then my missiles ha! you wouldnt even notice your guns not hitting. if every single mission singles out your race to place their counter for in this case defenders, then yes feel free to rant and cry, ill eve support your rant, but atm you dont. try vsing one of the higher bs's in a nighthawk, 6 launchers + 3 defender missiles = you are braking the tank of a 1m+bountyed bs with 3 missiles... when the bs's travel at 300+m/s its actully quite hard to just "catach up to them" untill you chase them to the end of the deadspace... which takes a good 20 min just so you can get inside the 10k defender range...
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Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:30:00 -
[33]
Skynet did you use to play Navy Field?
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:41:00 -
[34]
i did ;P had a montanna :D
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Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:42:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Cippalippus Primus on 05/10/2007 13:42:43
Originally by: Skynet91
i did ;P had a montanna :D
I remember you and I'm sure you will remember me. I'm SirDante.
Edit: I was sure it was you from the huge number of spelling mistakes
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:44:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Cippalippus Primus
Edited by: Cippalippus Primus on 05/10/2007 13:42:43
Originally by: Skynet91
i did ;P had a montanna :D
I remember you and I'm sure you will remember me. I'm SirDante.
Edit: I was sure it was you from the huge number of spelling mistakes
i do indeed :D though these days Google toolbar is my friend, and spell checks for me :D
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Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:46:00 -
[37]
So where are you hanging now? I don't see your alliance/corporation, just tell me if you're blue or red to me.
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:46:00 -
[38]
log in so we can chat ^^
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Cippalippus Primus
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:48:00 -
[39]
I can't now, but there are a lot of NF refugees in this game I can tell you. Some of them lives in the Navy Field chat channel.
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Skynet91
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Posted - 2007.10.05 13:52:00 -
[40]
lol theirs an nf chat chan? me and rolley moved over to eve last year i know hunter and the one nf mod came over lol
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Tegashi
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Posted - 2007.10.05 15:22:00 -
[41]
I don't know. I find that the hardiness of my Drake makes up for the overall substandard DPS even when factoring in Defenders. I'm currently transitioning from Caldari to Minmatar ships at the moment and I've noticed that while my Hurricane kills targets faster, there is sometimes a bit of downtime with my active armour tanking set-up in comparison to my Drake's passive tank so it really seems to even out. My still moderate skills may have some baring in this though.
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omiNATION
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:15:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Skynet91
Originally by: Zana Kito
Think about this carefully for a moment.
If defenders are such a huge issue, why do everyone and their dog run L4 missions in Ravens or Navy Ravens?
im sorry are you stupid -.-? if you botherd to read previouse replys you would see that the ammount of defenders it takes to destroy a torp or a cruise missiles is like 4 or something for a cruise and 12 for a torp rats dont shoot 4-12 defenders per a salvo thats y people can still use ravens and such with out any troubles at all.
then why the hell are you complaining?
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.10.05 18:23:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Skynet91
Originally by: Zana Kito
Think about this carefully for a moment.
If defenders are such a huge issue, why do everyone and their dog run L4 missions in Ravens or Navy Ravens?
im sorry are you stupid -.-? if you botherd to read previouse replys you would see that the ammount of defenders it takes to destroy a torp or a cruise missiles is like 4 or something for a cruise and 12 for a torp rats dont shoot 4-12 defenders per a salvo thats y people can still use ravens and such with out any troubles at all.
No, you're the idiot. It takes ONE defender to kill a cruiser missile, and only 3 for a torpedo.
So again, why are there so many ravens and CNRs with faction CRUISE launchers?
Caldari pve is already easy mode, why you want to get it boosted is beyond me.
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Vergil 577
Gallente
MAIDS
Antesignani Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.06 13:19:00 -
[44]
I agree with gamesguy Caldari is already over-powered. I've seen them chew through battle-ships faster than I've ever seen with a raven in a level 4 mission. They're not going to boost it because that'd mean not just everyone and their dogs will be flying Caldari but so will their mums. Also your nice mission hits the guy just as well as if he's close to your end range or close to you my blasters do crap when they're far away.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.10.06 14:01:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Gamesguy
So again, why are there so many ravens and CNRs with faction CRUISE launchers?
Probably because people are lazy. Torps are much better for lvl 4's but you need to pay attention when using them to make them effective.
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Esmenet
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Posted - 2007.10.06 14:05:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Akita T
I can finish more than half of the L4s almost completely AFK using Hydras on my Drake.
I just need to be there to restart the launchers after they reload.
And how many hours do you need to finish a mission this way?
That is pure pain as you spread out your damage over many targets with a already low damage output. Not to mention the triggered spawns that you normally dont want to trigger early.
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Bizz Lizz
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Posted - 2007.10.06 14:34:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Bizz Lizz on 06/10/2007 14:34:43
Caldari has the raven, with is excellent for all sorts of npc'ing despite defender missiles. Missile rof of 7.x seconds and not caring about opti-range and tracking issues ftw.
If you use something battlecruiser sized, then you have to deal with the drawbacks. I don't do lvl.4 missions in my hurricane either.
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